ASF Board reports and health of the project/community

[Pierre Smits]

Dear OFBiz Community Member,

I herewith take the opportunity to inform you about the obligation on the
OFBiz PMC to inform the ASF Board about how we as a community are doing.
These reports can be found at:
https://cwiki.apache.org/OFBADMIN/asf-board-reports.html.

Following the project since it came out of incubation in 2006 and
contributing since august 2008 I believe that the OFBiz PMC doesn't
communicate as well as it could and should. Looking back through old email
I noticed that only in 2009 there was a reference to ASF Board reports. Not
informing the community (through mailing lists) about upcoming reports and
not communicating that a new report has been submitted is an oversight that
can easily be remitted. Informing the community that new reports are
pending  or submitted should be one of the obligations of the OFBiz PMC to
the community.

Looking at the upcoming Board report (intended June 2012, found here:
https://cwiki.apache.org/OFBADMIN/asf-board-report-2012-06-draft.html) I
find that it should contain more than just a statement that R10.04.02 has
been released and a lot of copy-pasting of the previous report. Please read
the report.

Under the heading of Infrastructure
I believe that it should mentioned that no automated building and testing
has taken place since Jan 2012 on the underlying system of buildbot. And
that uptake by the INFRA community is slow.

Under the heading of Community and Project
I believe that it should state the progress regarding the roadmap. We can
communicate more on how we are moving ahead with code.

I also believe that it should mention (under the heading of Community and
Project) that although interactions on user and dev mailling list remain
high, the number of interacting PMC members and Committers is dwindling.
Of the 16 PMC members and 22 committers on the list only a handful
participate in user questions and developer issues. Even the last voting on
the release of 10.04.02 attracted no more than 4 PMC members to vote. And
that I find very alarming. The project deserves more actively participating
PMC Members and Committers.

In stead of having an active participation in the strengthening and
expanding the community and enhancing/improving OFBiz, we are on a road of
contraction (moving code out of OFBiz in the hope/trust that if important
enough it will be picked up by another community), which will lead to even
less participation in the OFBiz community via mailing lists and product
development. I find that disturbing.

We currently have about 640 unaddressed issues referenced in JIRA, of which
more than half are registered with a classification of mayor or higher
impact. It shows that, apart from the handful of Commiters working on
issues not referenced in JIRA, we have serious issues to deal with. These
issues should be addressed within the community and mentioned to ASF Board.

If we do not address the issues the project is facing it might come to a
point that the viability of this project is questioned. I believe we (as a
community) don't want that.

So, I invite you to share your thoughts on how this community is doing,
what can be improved and what should be reported to the ASF Board.

Sincerely yours,

Pierre Smits

[Jacques Le Roux]

From: "Pierre Smits" <[hidden email]>

> Dear OFBiz Community Member,
>
> I herewith take the opportunity to inform you about the obligation on the
> OFBiz PMC to inform the ASF Board about how we as a community are doing.
> These reports can be found at:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/OFBADMIN/asf-board-reports.html.
>
> Following the project since it came out of incubation in 2006 and
> contributing since august 2008 I believe that the OFBiz PMC doesn't
> communicate as well as it could and should. Looking back through old email
> I noticed that only in 2009 there was a reference to ASF Board reports. Not
> informing the community (through mailing lists) about upcoming reports and
> not communicating that a new report has been submitted is an oversight that
> can easily be remitted. Informing the community that new reports are
> pending  or submitted should be one of the obligations of the OFBiz PMC to
> the community.

This is past, forget it. Moreover the work done during this period is awesome. Even putting in place the administrative part was not
so easy, that what I think!

> Looking at the upcoming Board report (intended June 2012, found here:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/OFBADMIN/asf-board-report-2012-06-draft.html) I
> find that it should contain more than just a statement that R10.04.02 has
> been released and a lot of copy-pasting of the previous report. Please read
> the report.
>
> Under the heading of Infrastructure
> I believe that it should mentioned that no automated building and testing
> has taken place since Jan 2012 on the underlying system of buildbot. And
> that uptake by the INFRA community is slow.

I would wait next week before raising an urgent demand. But yes we could push one more time on this in the related Jira

> Under the heading of Community and Project
> I believe that it should state the progress regarding the roadmap. We can
> communicate more on how we are moving ahead with code.

Feel free to provide suggestions, which means texts here...

> I also believe that it should mention (under the heading of Community and
> Project) that although interactions on user and dev mailling list remain
> high, the number of interacting PMC members and Committers is dwindling.
> Of the 16 PMC members and 22 committers on the list only a handful
> participate in user questions and developer issues. Even the last voting on
> the release of 10.04.02 attracted no more than 4 PMC members to vote. And
> that I find very alarming. The project deserves more actively participating
> PMC Members and Committers.

I have the same feeling for a moment. But the problem is really where to find new persons dedicated to support OFBiz in long term at
the required level...

> In stead of having an active participation in the strengthening and
> expanding the community and enhancing/improving OFBiz, we are on a road of
> contraction (moving code out of OFBiz in the hope/trust that if important
> enough it will be picked up by another community), which will lead to even
> less participation in the OFBiz community via mailing lists and product
> development. I find that disturbing.

Everybody is happily welcome to help and join on the current work effort: OFBIz slim-down...

> We currently have about 640 unaddressed issues referenced in JIRA, of which
> more than half are registered with a classification of mayor or higher
> impact. It shows that, apart from the handful of Commiters working on
> issues not referenced in JIRA, we have serious issues to deal with. These
> issues should be addressed within the community and mentioned to ASF Board.

Do you think so? Often those issues are waiting a feedback from contributors... Raw Jira reports don't have all the information...

Jacques

> If we do not address the issues the project is facing it might come to a
> point that the viability of this project is questioned. I believe we (as a
> community) don't want that.
>
> So, I invite you to share your thoughts on how this community is doing,
> what can be improved and what should be reported to the ASF Board.
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
> Pierre Smits
>

[BJ Freeman]

Having adopted Ofbiz Model in 2002 for my business, I am both a User and
developer. the Developer was more forced, do to the attitude that
prevailed at the time.
A re-occurring theme I have heard over the years is that Ofbiz was
created to generate revenue for those developers that  had an Ofbiz
email address that has been since moved to hotwax.
Also that those that are first to contribute have the control of the
particular projecct, even if it does not fight the model ofbiz started with.
Many contribute based on their background that corrupts the ofbiz model,
particularly how UI is created.
All these things and few other less significant attitudes has left me no
other choice than to not use the ofbiz repository as a source of solutions.
First I have a business to run, and the volatility of the Code does not
make it any easier to have dependable, Stable code base or operation
parameters.
Second the code base is used as a developer playground, not to service
the end user.
We review the commits for Ideas but implement them to fit the model we
started out with.
In my view there is no roadmap for ofbiz just a bunch of Kludges.
As you see I monitor the ML, but don't see any use in contributing.



Pierre Smits sent the following on 4/27/2012 6:25 AM:

> Dear OFBiz Community Member,
>
> I herewith take the opportunity to inform you about the obligation on the
> OFBiz PMC to inform the ASF Board about how we as a community are doing.
> These reports can be found at:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/OFBADMIN/asf-board-reports.html.
>
> Following the project since it came out of incubation in 2006 and
> contributing since august 2008 I believe that the OFBiz PMC doesn't
> communicate as well as it could and should. Looking back through old email
> I noticed that only in 2009 there was a reference to ASF Board reports. Not
> informing the community (through mailing lists) about upcoming reports and
> not communicating that a new report has been submitted is an oversight that
> can easily be remitted. Informing the community that new reports are
> pending  or submitted should be one of the obligations of the OFBiz PMC to
> the community.
>
> Looking at the upcoming Board report (intended June 2012, found here:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/OFBADMIN/asf-board-report-2012-06-draft.html) I
> find that it should contain more than just a statement that R10.04.02 has
> been released and a lot of copy-pasting of the previous report. Please read
> the report.
>
> Under the heading of Infrastructure
> I believe that it should mentioned that no automated building and testing
> has taken place since Jan 2012 on the underlying system of buildbot. And
> that uptake by the INFRA community is slow.
>
> Under the heading of Community and Project
> I believe that it should state the progress regarding the roadmap. We can
> communicate more on how we are moving ahead with code.
>
> I also believe that it should mention (under the heading of Community and
> Project) that although interactions on user and dev mailling list remain
> high, the number of interacting PMC members and Committers is dwindling.
> Of the 16 PMC members and 22 committers on the list only a handful
> participate in user questions and developer issues. Even the last voting on
> the release of 10.04.02 attracted no more than 4 PMC members to vote. And
> that I find very alarming. The project deserves more actively participating
> PMC Members and Committers.
>
> In stead of having an active participation in the strengthening and
> expanding the community and enhancing/improving OFBiz, we are on a road of
> contraction (moving code out of OFBiz in the hope/trust that if important
> enough it will be picked up by another community), which will lead to even
> less participation in the OFBiz community via mailing lists and product
> development. I find that disturbing.
>
> We currently have about 640 unaddressed issues referenced in JIRA, of which
> more than half are registered with a classification of mayor or higher
> impact. It shows that, apart from the handful of Commiters working on
> issues not referenced in JIRA, we have serious issues to deal with. These
> issues should be addressed within the community and mentioned to ASF Board.
>
> If we do not address the issues the project is facing it might come to a
> point that the viability of this project is questioned. I believe we (as a
> community) don't want that.
>
> So, I invite you to share your thoughts on how this community is doing,
> what can be improved and what should be reported to the ASF Board.
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
> Pierre Smits
>

[Adrian Crum-3]

On 4/28/2012 11:20 AM, BJ Freeman wrote:
> Having adopted Ofbiz Model in 2002 for my business, I am both a User
> and developer. the Developer was more forced, do to the attitude that
> prevailed at the time.
> A re-occurring theme I have heard over the years is that Ofbiz was
> created to generate revenue for those developers that  had an Ofbiz
> email address that has been since moved to hotwax.

That is not an accurate description. OFBiz started out as a programming
project for a specific client, and that project was made open source.

Since then, many of the contributions made to OFBiz are driven by
clients who fund the development. Other contributions are volunteer
efforts (the refactorings I've done are an example).

> Also that those that are first to contribute have the control of the
> particular projecct, even if it does not fight the model ofbiz started
> with.

Maybe that is because the model changes over time. That is not a bad
thing. There are some things in the original OFBiz that were done wrong.
Should we keep them that way forever?

> Many contribute based on their background that corrupts the ofbiz
> model, particularly how UI is created.

If you have something specific in mind, then please open a Jira issue
and provide a patch.

> All these things and few other less significant attitudes has left me
> no other choice than to not use the ofbiz repository as a source of
> solutions.
> First I have a business to run, and the volatility of the Code does
> not make it any easier to have dependable, Stable code base or
> operation parameters.
> Second the code base is used as a developer playground, not to service
> the end user.

That phrase keeps popping up, but I have no idea what it means. I have
been involved with the project for 8 years, and I can't see where anyone
is using OFBiz as a "developer's playground." From my perspective, the
OFBiz developer community is composed of skilled professionals who work
hard to make OFBiz a stable, robust platform for web application
development.

> We review the commits for Ideas but implement them to fit the model we
> started out with.
> In my view there is no roadmap for ofbiz just a bunch of Kludges.
> As you see I monitor the ML, but don't see any use in contributing.

Everyone can choose to curse the darkness or light a candle. From what I
recall, whenever you have been asked to provide a patch to address your
concerns, you create a Jira issue but don't provide a patch, or you make
an excuse why you can't be bothered. The bottom line is, you get out of
OFBiz what you put into it. So, if you're not getting anything out of
OFBiz...

-Adrian

[Pierre Smits]

Dear OFBiz Community Member,

When I started this thread and asked you to share your thoughts on how
we are doing and how we can improve, I didn't intend it as an open
invitation to start rehashing what you feel went wrong a year or more
ago or reply with pointing fingers... Let's leave that kind of
negative energy where it was applied frequently: in the past.

My request was and is about forward looking (identify and improve) and
my only reference to the 2009 ASF Board Report was just a reference
and how we dealt with that and the transparancy regarding reporting.
And how we can improve that with small actions.

Regarding the project deserving more active PMC Members and
Committers, Jacques raised a interesting point when he said and I
quote "where to find new persons dedicated to support OFBiz in long
term at the required level".

First, It doesn't have to be 'new' people. They may be old people as
well. Nor hast it to be long term. We just need the persons to be
active and committed to support and further the project.

Secondly, the bylaws of the ASF doesn't state that it must be programmers.
In guidelines provided it is stated that the role of the PMC is to
provide oversight and not code nor coding (programming?). Guidelines
also state that "the role of the PMC is to further the long term
development and health of the community as a whole", and "to ensure
that balanced and wide scale peer review and collaboration does
happen".

That last quote is as well about how the project functions as it is about code.

I also quote from same guidelines: "Within the ASF we worry about any
community which centers around a few individuals who are working
virtually uncontested".

And I believe that is what the project is sliding into. And why we
need more active participants in the OFBiz PMC.

And if we are lucky we get active code contributors (committers) as
well. PMC Members aren't required to deliver code, they may. And they
are not expected to be exceptionally good at coding (if I interpret
ASF documents correctly), they just need to be committed to long term
development and health of the community.

Sincerely yours,

Pierre Smits

[BJ Freeman]

inline

Adrian Crum sent the following on 4/29/2012 2:04 AM:

> On 4/28/2012 11:20 AM, BJ Freeman wrote:
>> Having adopted Ofbiz Model in 2002 for my business, I am both a User
>> and developer. the Developer was more forced, do to the attitude that
>> prevailed at the time.
>> A re-occurring theme I have heard over the years is that Ofbiz was
>> created to generate revenue for those developers that had an Ofbiz
>> email address that has been since moved to hotwax.
>
> That is not an accurate description. OFBiz started out as a programming
> project for a specific client, and that project was made open source.
>
> Since then, many of the contributions made to OFBiz are driven by
> clients who fund the development. Other contributions are volunteer
> efforts (the refactorings I've done are an example).
>
>> Also that those that are first to contribute have the control of the
>> particular projecct, even if it does not fight the model ofbiz started
>> with.
>
> Maybe that is because the model changes over time. That is not a bad
> thing. There are some things in the original OFBiz that were done wrong.
> Should we keep them that way forever?
>

this is my main focus, I believe you confuse Model with implementation.
for instance, the model for rendering was that many forms of rendering
could take the same parameters and generate different outputs. This just
took defining the Rendering engine.
this has been bypassed, so there is no easy way to remove or add
rendering as one chooses.

>> Many contribute based on their background that corrupts the ofbiz
>> model, particularly how UI is created.
>
> If you have something specific in mind, then please open a Jira issue
> and provide a patch.
>
>> All these things and few other less significant attitudes has left me
>> no other choice than to not use the ofbiz repository as a source of
>> solutions.
>> First I have a business to run, and the volatility of the Code does
>> not make it any easier to have dependable, Stable code base or
>> operation parameters.
>> Second the code base is used as a developer playground, not to service
>> the end user.
>
> That phrase keeps popping up, but I have no idea what it means. I have
> been involved with the project for 8 years, and I can't see where anyone
> is using OFBiz as a "developer's playground." From my perspective, the
> OFBiz developer community is composed of skilled professionals who work
> hard to make OFBiz a stable, robust platform for web application
> development.

this I attribute to a different perspective about how to develop and
provide updates.
The biggest is there is not testing from beginning to end only testing a
module with set fixed inputs, but not all those that the modules using
it could generate.
The effort to have migration process, so the upgrade path is easy for
the end user.
that code gets changes that any customization is make inert because the
code it depended on is removed or changed to the level it will not work.

>
>> We review the commits for Ideas but implement them to fit the model we
>> started out with.
>> In my view there is no roadmap for ofbiz just a bunch of Kludges.
>> As you see I monitor the ML, but don't see any use in contributing.
>
> Everyone can choose to curse the darkness or light a candle. From what I
> recall, whenever you have been asked to provide a patch to address your
> concerns, you create a Jira issue but don't provide a patch, or you make
> an excuse why you can't be bothered. The bottom line is, you get out of
> OFBiz what you put into it. So, if you're not getting anything out of
> OFBiz...
>

I since I branched from Ofbiz repository, where I have control, and I
put effort into that, I am getting all I need.
Though it is not possible to do that with the way ofbiz is managed
currently.
I don't see trying to redo code that someone has put in and not fixed.
Like the way partyrelations was implemented in the HR component.
This again is about the model.
> -Adrian
>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

From: "BJ Freeman" <[hidden email]>

> inline
>
> Adrian Crum sent the following on 4/29/2012 2:04 AM:
>> On 4/28/2012 11:20 AM, BJ Freeman wrote:
>>> Having adopted Ofbiz Model in 2002 for my business, I am both a User
>>> and developer. the Developer was more forced, do to the attitude that
>>> prevailed at the time.
>>> A re-occurring theme I have heard over the years is that Ofbiz was
>>> created to generate revenue for those developers that had an Ofbiz
>>> email address that has been since moved to hotwax.
>>
>> That is not an accurate description. OFBiz started out as a programming
>> project for a specific client, and that project was made open source.
>>
>> Since then, many of the contributions made to OFBiz are driven by
>> clients who fund the development. Other contributions are volunteer
>> efforts (the refactorings I've done are an example).
>>
>>> Also that those that are first to contribute have the control of the
>>> particular projecct, even if it does not fight the model ofbiz started
>>> with.
>>
>> Maybe that is because the model changes over time. That is not a bad
>> thing. There are some things in the original OFBiz that were done wrong.
>> Should we keep them that way forever?
>>
> this is my main focus, I believe you confuse Model with implementation.
> for instance, the model for rendering was that many forms of rendering could take the same parameters and generate different
> outputs. This just took defining the Rendering engine.
> this has been bypassed, so there is no easy way to remove or add rendering as one chooses.

Mmm, do you know about
#Configurations for the Widget View Handlers implemented using the MacroScreenViewHandler
in widget.properties? Or are you referring to something else?

>>> Many contribute based on their background that corrupts the ofbiz
>>> model, particularly how UI is created.
>>
>> If you have something specific in mind, then please open a Jira issue
>> and provide a patch.
>>
>>> All these things and few other less significant attitudes has left me
>>> no other choice than to not use the ofbiz repository as a source of
>>> solutions.
>>> First I have a business to run, and the volatility of the Code does
>>> not make it any easier to have dependable, Stable code base or
>>> operation parameters.
>>> Second the code base is used as a developer playground, not to service
>>> the end user.
>>
>> That phrase keeps popping up, but I have no idea what it means. I have
>> been involved with the project for 8 years, and I can't see where anyone
>> is using OFBiz as a "developer's playground." From my perspective, the
>> OFBiz developer community is composed of skilled professionals who work
>> hard to make OFBiz a stable, robust platform for web application
>> development.
> this I attribute to a different perspective about how to develop and provide updates.
> The biggest is there is not testing from beginning to end only testing a module with set fixed inputs, but not all those that the
> modules using it could generate.
> The effort to have migration process, so the upgrade path is easy for the end user.
> that code gets changes that any customization is make inert because the code it depended on is removed or changed to the level it
> will not work.

I think now with maintained releases you can get this benefit (from R09.4, hence now 3 years...). Of course if you follow trunk it's
harder. But it's also bleeding edge, so no surprises there

>>
>>> We review the commits for Ideas but implement them to fit the model we
>>> started out with.
>>> In my view there is no roadmap for ofbiz just a bunch of Kludges.
>>> As you see I monitor the ML, but don't see any use in contributing.
>>
>> Everyone can choose to curse the darkness or light a candle. From what I
>> recall, whenever you have been asked to provide a patch to address your
>> concerns, you create a Jira issue but don't provide a patch, or you make
>> an excuse why you can't be bothered. The bottom line is, you get out of
>> OFBiz what you put into it. So, if you're not getting anything out of
>> OFBiz...
>>
> I since I branched from Ofbiz repository, where I have control, and I put effort into that, I am getting all I need.
> Though it is not possible to do that with the way ofbiz is managed currently.
> I don't see trying to redo code that someone has put in and not fixed.
> Like the way partyrelations was implemented in the HR component.
> This again is about the model.

Seems that some people are able to do it...

Jacques

>> -Adrian
>>
>>