Apache OFBiz Service Providers page

[Emmanuel Lécharny]

Hi !


it came to my attention that this page :

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers

might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly to
this :

"Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for the
public
good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial entity
over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to fund a
commercial activity without being taxed."


You can also have a look at
http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :


"


    Apache projects are managed independently

Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure that
they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
independence within their project community. The perception of existing
and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable both
joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
for the long term health of the project.

"


I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers belong
to those companies.

I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One option
would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in on
the same line.

A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing users that
neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a look
at other project's page :

http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html

http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html


Thanks !

Emmanuel Lécharny

[Sharan-F]

Hi Emmanuel

Thanks very much for the feedback.

The community is currently in the process of developing a new OFBiz
website that will include a new service providers page, but based on
your feedback I agree that if we continue to use this page too then it
needs to be re-worked.

Thanks
Sharan

On 02/08/16 11:39, Emmanuel Lécharny wrote:

> Hi !
>
>
> it came to my attention that this page :
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
>
> might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
> committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly to
> this :
>
> "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for the
> public
> good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial entity
> over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to fund a
> commercial activity without being taxed."
>
>
> You can also have a look at
> http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
>
>
> "
>
>
>      Apache projects are managed independently
>
> Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure that
> they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
> that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
> independence within their project community. The perception of existing
> and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
> independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
> others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable both
> joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
> obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
> discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
> for the long term health of the project.
>
> "
>
>
> I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
> alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers belong
> to those companies.
>
> I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
> do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One option
> would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in on
> the same line.
>
> A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing users that
> neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a look
> at other project's page :
>
> http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
>
> http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>
>
> Thanks !
>
> Emmanuel Lécharny
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Hi Emmanuel,

This is indeed a concern, thanks for all the information below.

Fortunately this page is not private and any contributor having asked for access (ie
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Contributors) can amend it following your suggestions.

I think it will be difficult for certain companies to list all the countries they want to provide support (for instance as long as you speak French or
English I can work with you :)).

Then maybe a word like "globally" (or by continents, etc.) could be used?

Opinions?

Jacques


Le 02/08/2016 à 11:39, Emmanuel Lécharny a écrit :

> Hi !
>
>
> it came to my attention that this page :
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
>
> might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
> committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly to
> this :
>
> "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for the
> public
> good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial entity
> over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to fund a
> commercial activity without being taxed."
>
>
> You can also have a look at
> http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
>
>
> "
>
>
>      Apache projects are managed independently
>
> Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure that
> they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
> that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
> independence within their project community. The perception of existing
> and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
> independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
> others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable both
> joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
> obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
> discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
> for the long term health of the project.
>
> "
>
>
> I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
> alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers belong
> to those companies.
>
> I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
> do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One option
> would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in on
> the same line.
>
> A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing users that
> neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a look
> at other project's page :
>
> http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
>
> http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>
>
> Thanks !
>
> Emmanuel Lécharny
>
>

[Jacopo Cappellato-5]

While we wait for the new site we could:

0) add the page discalimer as suggested; additionally, as Jacques pointed
out, this page is open to anyone who submits an ICLA and asks to be
registered as OFBiz contributor: no one is really reviewing the data
provided... we could mention this in the header of the page
1) merge the two lists into one
2) sort in alphabetical order
3) add a column with the number of committers; one with the number of
contributors; we could add also a column with the number of employees
working on OFBiz related projects; I don't think that this data would "unduly
advantage one commercial entity": the idea is to provide some insight about
the teams available to work on OFBiz specific projects
4) make the above columns sortable
5) Location: simply specify the location of the company's
offices/buildings; in the description the company can specify the countries
of operation

Jacopo

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi !
>
>
> it came to my attention that this page :
>
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
>
> might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
> committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly to
> this :
>
> "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for the
> public
> good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial
> entity
> over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to fund a
> commercial activity without being taxed."
>
>
> You can also have a look at
> http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
>
>
> "
>
>
>     Apache projects are managed independently
>
> Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure that
> they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
> that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
> independence within their project community. The perception of existing
> and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
> independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
> others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable both
> joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
> obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
> discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
> for the long term health of the project.
>
> "
>
>
> I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
> alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers belong
> to those companies.
>
> I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
> do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One option
> would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in on
> the same line.
>
> A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing users that
> neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a look
> at other project's page :
>
> http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
>
> http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>
>
> Thanks !
>
> Emmanuel Lécharny
>
>

[Emmanuel Lécharny]

Jacopo,

regarding the content, I think it's up to the PMC to manage it, up to a
point. Well, at Directory, we decided to accept *anyone* who want to
have its name on this page, regardless of the existance of an icla
(because the page is not publicly modifiable). That also mean the page
is really just what it is : a list, with no endorsment from the PMC
whatsoever (and that has been made very clear in the header).

Regarding the committers, I do believe people are smart eouh to double
check with the list of committers and the companies they belong to.
Being a committer does not make you magically a good support person;-)
Most of the time, as a committer, you just don't want to get bothered
providig support, it's too time consuming (that may be just me, though
...). In other words, I would suggest to remove this information, but I
would agree that it's not unfair to keep it. Your choice.

Otherwise,all the other suggestions are just fine.

Thanks !

[Sharan-F]

Hi

I think including the company office location is important because it
may be that people are looking for a company in a particular place (e.g
for tax reasons etc). I also think it would be good to reduce the
description size text to a standard length because in some cases it
looks like people have gone a bit overboard in describing what they do.
In one of Emmanuel's examples it was limited to a couple of lines with
links to their site,  so being concise could help make the page more
standard.

As part of the work for the new website, one of the things I am in the
process of doing was running through this list and checking that these
providers do actually mention OFBiz on their websites - and if they
don't I have been either contacting them to add it or was going to
remove them from the list.

Thanks
Sharan

On 02/08/16 16:06, Jacopo Cappellato wrote:

> While we wait for the new site we could:
>
> 0) add the page discalimer as suggested; additionally, as Jacques pointed
> out, this page is open to anyone who submits an ICLA and asks to be
> registered as OFBiz contributor: no one is really reviewing the data
> provided... we could mention this in the header of the page
> 1) merge the two lists into one
> 2) sort in alphabetical order
> 3) add a column with the number of committers; one with the number of
> contributors; we could add also a column with the number of employees
> working on OFBiz related projects; I don't think that this data would "unduly
> advantage one commercial entity": the idea is to provide some insight about
> the teams available to work on OFBiz specific projects
> 4) make the above columns sortable
> 5) Location: simply specify the location of the company's
> offices/buildings; in the description the company can specify the countries
> of operation
>
> Jacopo
>
> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi !
>>
>>
>> it came to my attention that this page :
>>
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
>>
>> might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
>> committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly to
>> this :
>>
>> "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for the
>> public
>> good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial
>> entity
>> over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to fund a
>> commercial activity without being taxed."
>>
>>
>> You can also have a look at
>> http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
>>
>>
>> "
>>
>>
>>      Apache projects are managed independently
>>
>> Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure that
>> they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
>> that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
>> independence within their project community. The perception of existing
>> and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
>> independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
>> others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable both
>> joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
>> obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
>> discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
>> for the long term health of the project.
>>
>> "
>>
>>
>> I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
>> alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers belong
>> to those companies.
>>
>> I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
>> do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One option
>> would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in on
>> the same line.
>>
>> A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing users that
>> neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a look
>> at other project's page :
>>
>> http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
>>
>> http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>
>>
>> Thanks !
>>
>> Emmanuel Lécharny
>>
>>

[Pierre Smits]

A suggestion to consider is to remove the description element completely.
Let the service providers promote themselves at their own sites.

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 8:50 PM, Sharan Foga <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I think including the company office location is important because it may
> be that people are looking for a company in a particular place (e.g for tax
> reasons etc). I also think it would be good to reduce the description size
> text to a standard length because in some cases it looks like people have
> gone a bit overboard in describing what they do. In one of Emmanuel's
> examples it was limited to a couple of lines with links to their site,  so
> being concise could help make the page more standard.
>
> As part of the work for the new website, one of the things I am in the
> process of doing was running through this list and checking that these
> providers do actually mention OFBiz on their websites - and if they don't I
> have been either contacting them to add it or was going to remove them from
> the list.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>
> On 02/08/16 16:06, Jacopo Cappellato wrote:
>
>> While we wait for the new site we could:
>>
>> 0) add the page discalimer as suggested; additionally, as Jacques pointed
>> out, this page is open to anyone who submits an ICLA and asks to be
>> registered as OFBiz contributor: no one is really reviewing the data
>> provided... we could mention this in the header of the page
>> 1) merge the two lists into one
>> 2) sort in alphabetical order
>> 3) add a column with the number of committers; one with the number of
>> contributors; we could add also a column with the number of employees
>> working on OFBiz related projects; I don't think that this data would
>> "unduly
>> advantage one commercial entity": the idea is to provide some insight
>> about
>> the teams available to work on OFBiz specific projects
>> 4) make the above columns sortable
>> 5) Location: simply specify the location of the company's
>> offices/buildings; in the description the company can specify the
>> countries
>> of operation
>>
>> Jacopo
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi !
>>>
>>>
>>> it came to my attention that this page :
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
>>>
>>> might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
>>> committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly to
>>> this :
>>>
>>> "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for the
>>> public
>>> good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial
>>> entity
>>> over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to fund a
>>> commercial activity without being taxed."
>>>
>>>
>>> You can also have a look at
>>> http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
>>>
>>>
>>> "
>>>
>>>
>>>      Apache projects are managed independently
>>>
>>> Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure that
>>> they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
>>> that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
>>> independence within their project community. The perception of existing
>>> and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
>>> independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
>>> others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable both
>>> joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
>>> obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
>>> discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
>>> for the long term health of the project.
>>>
>>> "
>>>
>>>
>>> I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
>>> alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers belong
>>> to those companies.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
>>> do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One option
>>> would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in on
>>> the same line.
>>>
>>> A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing users
>>> that
>>> neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a look
>>> at other project's page :
>>>
>>> http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
>>>
>>> http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks !
>>>
>>> Emmanuel Lécharny
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

[Sharan-F]

Good point.  I suppose it is about what is the objective of this list.
If it is only an informational list of providers then I don't think
their promotion should be happening here.

Thanks
Sharan

On 02/08/16 20:54, Pierre Smits wrote:

> A suggestion to consider is to remove the description element completely.
> Let the service providers promote themselves at their own sites.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>
> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 8:50 PM, Sharan Foga <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> I think including the company office location is important because it may
>> be that people are looking for a company in a particular place (e.g for taxoo
>> reasons etc). I also think it would be good to reduce the description size
>> text to a standard length because in some cases it looks like people have
>> gone a bit overboard in describing what they do. In one of Emmanuel's
>> examples it was limited to a couple of lines with links to their site,  so
>> being concise could help make the page more standard.
>>
>> As part of the work for the new website, one of the things I am in the
>> process of doing was running through this list and checking that these
>> providers do actually mention OFBiz on their websites - and if they don't I
>> have been either contacting them to add it or was going to remove them from
>> the list.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Sharan
>>
>>
>> On 02/08/16 16:06, Jacopo Cappellato wrote:
>>
>>> While we wait for the new site we could:
>>>
>>> 0) add the page discalimer as suggested; additionally, as Jacques pointed
>>> out, this page is open to anyone who submits an ICLA and asks to be
>>> registered as OFBiz contributor: no one is really reviewing the data
>>> provided... we could mention this in the header of the page
>>> 1) merge the two lists into one
>>> 2) sort in alphabetical order
>>> 3) add a column with the number of committers; one with the number of
>>> contributors; we could add also a column with the number of employees
>>> working on OFBiz related projects; I don't think that this data would
>>> "unduly
>>> advantage one commercial entity": the idea is to provide some insight
>>> about
>>> the teams available to work on OFBiz specific projects
>>> 4) make the above columns sortable
>>> 5) Location: simply specify the location of the company's
>>> offices/buildings; in the description the company can specify the
>>> countries
>>> of operation
>>>
>>> Jacopo
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi !
>>>>
>>>> it came to my attention that this page :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
>>>>
>>>> might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
>>>> committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly to
>>>> this :
>>>>
>>>> "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for the
>>>> public
>>>> good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial
>>>> entity
>>>> over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to fund a
>>>> commercial activity without being taxed."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can also have a look at
>>>> http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       Apache projects are managed independently
>>>>
>>>> Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure that
>>>> they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
>>>> that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
>>>> independence within their project community. The perception of existing
>>>> and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
>>>> independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
>>>> others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable both
>>>> joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
>>>> obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
>>>> discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
>>>> for the long term health of the project.
>>>>
>>>> "
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
>>>> alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers belong
>>>> to those companies.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
>>>> do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One option
>>>> would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in on
>>>> the same line.
>>>>
>>>> A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing users
>>>> that
>>>> neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a look
>>>> at other project's page :
>>>>
>>>> http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
>>>>
>>>> http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks !
>>>>
>>>> Emmanuel Lécharny
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

[Sharan-F]

I will start to implement some of these changes discussed here so if anyone else wants to join in and help, then please feel free.

Thanks
Sharan

On 2016-08-02 16:06 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <[hidden email]> wrote:

> While we wait for the new site we could:
>
> 0) add the page discalimer as suggested; additionally, as Jacques pointed
> out, this page is open to anyone who submits an ICLA and asks to be
> registered as OFBiz contributor: no one is really reviewing the data
> provided... we could mention this in the header of the page
> 1) merge the two lists into one
> 2) sort in alphabetical order
> 3) add a column with the number of committers; one with the number of
> contributors; we could add also a column with the number of employees
> working on OFBiz related projects; I don't think that this data would "unduly
> advantage one commercial entity": the idea is to provide some insight about
> the teams available to work on OFBiz specific projects
> 4) make the above columns sortable
> 5) Location: simply specify the location of the company's
> offices/buildings; in the description the company can specify the countries
> of operation
>
> Jacopo
>
> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi !
> >
> >
> > it came to my attention that this page :
> >
> >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
> >
> > might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
> > committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly to
> > this :
> >
> > "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for the
> > public
> > good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial
> > entity
> > over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to fund a
> > commercial activity without being taxed."
> >
> >
> > You can also have a look at
> > http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
> >
> >
> > "
> >
> >
> >     Apache projects are managed independently
> >
> > Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure that
> > they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
> > that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
> > independence within their project community. The perception of existing
> > and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
> > independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
> > others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable both
> > joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
> > obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
> > discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
> > for the long term health of the project.
> >
> > "
> >
> >
> > I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
> > alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers belong
> > to those companies.
> >
> > I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
> > do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One option
> > would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in on
> > the same line.
> >
> > A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing users that
> > neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a look
> > at other project's page :
> >
> > http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
> >
> > http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >
> >
> > Thanks !
> >
> > Emmanuel Lécharny
> >
> >
>

[Emmanuel Lécharny]

Ah !!

I as looking for *this* page which clarifies the ASF policy regarding
the support page I mentionned, but didn't found it. Here it is :

http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking#productsupport

Feel free to read it, it explains what you can do and what you should
not do way better than what I have expressed in my original mailThanks !

[Sharan-F]

Hi All

I have done an initial review of the service provider page and removed any of the links that are broken, no longer working or where the webpage has nothing to do with OFBiz. If I know that it is OFBiz related (even though I couldnt find it on the website, I have left it in the list). There are a few Chinese ones that I will need some help in de-coding :-)

I think this list built up to a big size was because it was previously open and people just came in and created an entry and link to their website, even if it had absolutely nothing to do with OFBiz. Now with having to be a contributor to edit the wiki, I hope this will prevent this type of thing happening in the future.

It is sorted alphabetically and I've removed the description column. I will take a look at the link Emmanuel has provided. Should I continue with the tidy up based on what has been talked about so far or should I wait to see if this needs to be discussed some more?

Thanks
Sharan


On 2016-08-03 09:43 (+0200), "Sharan Foga"<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I will start to implement some of these changes discussed here so if anyone else wants to join in and help, then please feel free.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
> On 2016-08-02 16:06 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > While we wait for the new site we could:
> >
> > 0) add the page discalimer as suggested; additionally, as Jacques pointed
> > out, this page is open to anyone who submits an ICLA and asks to be
> > registered as OFBiz contributor: no one is really reviewing the data
> > provided... we could mention this in the header of the page
> > 1) merge the two lists into one
> > 2) sort in alphabetical order
> > 3) add a column with the number of committers; one with the number of
> > contributors; we could add also a column with the number of employees
> > working on OFBiz related projects; I don't think that this data would "unduly
> > advantage one commercial entity": the idea is to provide some insight about
> > the teams available to work on OFBiz specific projects
> > 4) make the above columns sortable
> > 5) Location: simply specify the location of the company's
> > offices/buildings; in the description the company can specify the countries
> > of operation
> >
> > Jacopo
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi !
> > >
> > >
> > > it came to my attention that this page :
> > >
> > >
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
> > >
> > > might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
> > > committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly to
> > > this :
> > >
> > > "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for the
> > > public
> > > good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial
> > > entity
> > > over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to fund a
> > > commercial activity without being taxed."
> > >
> > >
> > > You can also have a look at
> > > http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
> > >
> > >
> > > "
> > >
> > >
> > >     Apache projects are managed independently
> > >
> > > Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure that
> > > they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
> > > that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
> > > independence within their project community. The perception of existing
> > > and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
> > > independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
> > > others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable both
> > > joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
> > > obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
> > > discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
> > > for the long term health of the project.
> > >
> > > "
> > >
> > >
> > > I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
> > > alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers belong
> > > to those companies.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
> > > do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One option
> > > would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in on
> > > the same line.
> > >
> > > A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing users that
> > > neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a look
> > > at other project's page :
> > >
> > > http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
> > >
> > > http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks !
> > >
> > > Emmanuel Lécharny
> > >
> > >
> >
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Thanks for the effort Sharan!

I'd wait a bit that people have a look. I just had a glance but did not review all yet.

for instance, I'm fine with http://www.ofbiz.info/control/providers but I wonder if it follows the rules because I also did not read yet
http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking#productsupport

Jacques


Le 03/08/2016 à 14:21, Sharan Foga a écrit :

> Hi All
>
> I have done an initial review of the service provider page and removed any of the links that are broken, no longer working or where the webpage has nothing to do with OFBiz. If I know that it is OFBiz related (even though I couldnt find it on the website, I have left it in the list). There are a few Chinese ones that I will need some help in de-coding :-)
>
> I think this list built up to a big size was because it was previously open and people just came in and created an entry and link to their website, even if it had absolutely nothing to do with OFBiz. Now with having to be a contributor to edit the wiki, I hope this will prevent this type of thing happening in the future.
>
> It is sorted alphabetically and I've removed the description column. I will take a look at the link Emmanuel has provided. Should I continue with the tidy up based on what has been talked about so far or should I wait to see if this needs to be discussed some more?
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>
> On 2016-08-03 09:43 (+0200), "Sharan Foga"<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I will start to implement some of these changes discussed here so if anyone else wants to join in and help, then please feel free.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Sharan
>>
>> On 2016-08-02 16:06 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> While we wait for the new site we could:
>>>
>>> 0) add the page discalimer as suggested; additionally, as Jacques pointed
>>> out, this page is open to anyone who submits an ICLA and asks to be
>>> registered as OFBiz contributor: no one is really reviewing the data
>>> provided... we could mention this in the header of the page
>>> 1) merge the two lists into one
>>> 2) sort in alphabetical order
>>> 3) add a column with the number of committers; one with the number of
>>> contributors; we could add also a column with the number of employees
>>> working on OFBiz related projects; I don't think that this data would "unduly
>>> advantage one commercial entity": the idea is to provide some insight about
>>> the teams available to work on OFBiz specific projects
>>> 4) make the above columns sortable
>>> 5) Location: simply specify the location of the company's
>>> offices/buildings; in the description the company can specify the countries
>>> of operation
>>>
>>> Jacopo
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi !
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> it came to my attention that this page :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
>>>>
>>>> might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
>>>> committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly to
>>>> this :
>>>>
>>>> "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for the
>>>> public
>>>> good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial
>>>> entity
>>>> over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to fund a
>>>> commercial activity without being taxed."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can also have a look at
>>>> http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      Apache projects are managed independently
>>>>
>>>> Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure that
>>>> they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
>>>> that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
>>>> independence within their project community. The perception of existing
>>>> and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
>>>> independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
>>>> others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable both
>>>> joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
>>>> obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
>>>> discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
>>>> for the long term health of the project.
>>>>
>>>> "
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
>>>> alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers belong
>>>> to those companies.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
>>>> do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One option
>>>> would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in on
>>>> the same line.
>>>>
>>>> A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing users that
>>>> neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a look
>>>> at other project's page :
>>>>
>>>> http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
>>>>
>>>> http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks !
>>>>
>>>> Emmanuel Lécharny
>>>>
>>>>

[Pierre Smits]

I believe the link to the site of Antweb (ofbiz.info) adds little value, as
the list can be sorted on location.

Further more the columns 'number of committers/contributors' and
'Contributors' provide an unfair advantage to those with committers and
more than 1 contributor. The same applies with to service providers with
more than one location. As I mentioned earlier, let the service providers
do their marketing on their own site. Referencing blog sites, social media
accounts, email addresses, etc falls into that category.

A link to the primary website of the service provider should be enough,
resulting in following columns in the table:

   - name
   - Country, Province/Region/State
   - website.


Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Jacques Le Roux <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for the effort Sharan!
>
> I'd wait a bit that people have a look. I just had a glance but did not
> review all yet.
>
> for instance, I'm fine with http://www.ofbiz.info/control/providers but I
> wonder if it follows the rules because I also did not read yet
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking#productsupport
>
> Jacques
>
>
>
> Le 03/08/2016 à 14:21, Sharan Foga a écrit :
>
>> Hi All
>>
>> I have done an initial review of the service provider page and removed
>> any of the links that are broken, no longer working or where the webpage
>> has nothing to do with OFBiz. If I know that it is OFBiz related (even
>> though I couldnt find it on the website, I have left it in the list). There
>> are a few Chinese ones that I will need some help in de-coding :-)
>>
>> I think this list built up to a big size was because it was previously
>> open and people just came in and created an entry and link to their
>> website, even if it had absolutely nothing to do with OFBiz. Now with
>> having to be a contributor to edit the wiki, I hope this will prevent this
>> type of thing happening in the future.
>>
>> It is sorted alphabetically and I've removed the description column. I
>> will take a look at the link Emmanuel has provided. Should I continue with
>> the tidy up based on what has been talked about so far or should I wait to
>> see if this needs to be discussed some more?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Sharan
>>
>>
>> On 2016-08-03 09:43 (+0200), "Sharan Foga"<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I will start to implement some of these changes discussed here so if
>>> anyone else wants to join in and help, then please feel free.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Sharan
>>>
>>> On 2016-08-02 16:06 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> While we wait for the new site we could:
>>>>
>>>> 0) add the page discalimer as suggested; additionally, as Jacques
>>>> pointed
>>>> out, this page is open to anyone who submits an ICLA and asks to be
>>>> registered as OFBiz contributor: no one is really reviewing the data
>>>> provided... we could mention this in the header of the page
>>>> 1) merge the two lists into one
>>>> 2) sort in alphabetical order
>>>> 3) add a column with the number of committers; one with the number of
>>>> contributors; we could add also a column with the number of employees
>>>> working on OFBiz related projects; I don't think that this data would
>>>> "unduly
>>>> advantage one commercial entity": the idea is to provide some insight
>>>> about
>>>> the teams available to work on OFBiz specific projects
>>>> 4) make the above columns sortable
>>>> 5) Location: simply specify the location of the company's
>>>> offices/buildings; in the description the company can specify the
>>>> countries
>>>> of operation
>>>>
>>>> Jacopo
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny <
>>>> [hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi !
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> it came to my attention that this page :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
>>>>>
>>>>> might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
>>>>> committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly
>>>>> to
>>>>> this :
>>>>>
>>>>> "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for
>>>>> the
>>>>> public
>>>>> good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial
>>>>> entity
>>>>> over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to fund
>>>>> a
>>>>> commercial activity without being taxed."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You can also have a look at
>>>>> http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>      Apache projects are managed independently
>>>>>
>>>>> Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure
>>>>> that
>>>>> they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
>>>>> that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
>>>>> independence within their project community. The perception of existing
>>>>> and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
>>>>> independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
>>>>> others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable both
>>>>> joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
>>>>> obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
>>>>> discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
>>>>> for the long term health of the project.
>>>>>
>>>>> "
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
>>>>> alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers
>>>>> belong
>>>>> to those companies.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
>>>>> do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One option
>>>>> would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in on
>>>>> the same line.
>>>>>
>>>>> A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing users
>>>>> that
>>>>> neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a look
>>>>> at other project's page :
>>>>>
>>>>> http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
>>>>>
>>>>> http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks !
>>>>>
>>>>> Emmanuel Lécharny
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Le 03/08/2016 à 21:52, Pierre Smits a écrit :
> I believe the link to the site of Antweb (ofbiz.info) adds little value, as
> the list can be sorted on location.

I agree

>
> Further more the columns 'number of committers/contributors' and
> 'Contributors' provide an unfair advantage to those with committers and
> more than 1 contributor. The same applies with to service providers with
> more than one location. As I mentioned earlier, let the service providers
> do their marketing on their own site. Referencing blog sites, social media
> accounts, email addresses, etc falls into that category.
>
> A link to the primary website of the service provider should be enough,
> resulting in following columns in the table:
>
>     - name
>     - Country, Province/Region/State
>     - website.

Makes sense to me. I'd add that we should not put plain email addresses but things like "committer at apache dot org". I believe you have more chances
to get spam than a lead using a plain email address there!
As Pierre advocated, marketing should be done on websites.

Jacques

>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Jacques Le Roux <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the effort Sharan!
>>
>> I'd wait a bit that people have a look. I just had a glance but did not
>> review all yet.
>>
>> for instance, I'm fine with http://www.ofbiz.info/control/providers but I
>> wonder if it follows the rules because I also did not read yet
>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking#productsupport
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 03/08/2016 à 14:21, Sharan Foga a écrit :
>>
>>> Hi All
>>>
>>> I have done an initial review of the service provider page and removed
>>> any of the links that are broken, no longer working or where the webpage
>>> has nothing to do with OFBiz. If I know that it is OFBiz related (even
>>> though I couldnt find it on the website, I have left it in the list). There
>>> are a few Chinese ones that I will need some help in de-coding :-)
>>>
>>> I think this list built up to a big size was because it was previously
>>> open and people just came in and created an entry and link to their
>>> website, even if it had absolutely nothing to do with OFBiz. Now with
>>> having to be a contributor to edit the wiki, I hope this will prevent this
>>> type of thing happening in the future.
>>>
>>> It is sorted alphabetically and I've removed the description column. I
>>> will take a look at the link Emmanuel has provided. Should I continue with
>>> the tidy up based on what has been talked about so far or should I wait to
>>> see if this needs to be discussed some more?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Sharan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2016-08-03 09:43 (+0200), "Sharan Foga"<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I will start to implement some of these changes discussed here so if
>>>> anyone else wants to join in and help, then please feel free.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Sharan
>>>>
>>>> On 2016-08-02 16:06 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> While we wait for the new site we could:
>>>>>
>>>>> 0) add the page discalimer as suggested; additionally, as Jacques
>>>>> pointed
>>>>> out, this page is open to anyone who submits an ICLA and asks to be
>>>>> registered as OFBiz contributor: no one is really reviewing the data
>>>>> provided... we could mention this in the header of the page
>>>>> 1) merge the two lists into one
>>>>> 2) sort in alphabetical order
>>>>> 3) add a column with the number of committers; one with the number of
>>>>> contributors; we could add also a column with the number of employees
>>>>> working on OFBiz related projects; I don't think that this data would
>>>>> "unduly
>>>>> advantage one commercial entity": the idea is to provide some insight
>>>>> about
>>>>> the teams available to work on OFBiz specific projects
>>>>> 4) make the above columns sortable
>>>>> 5) Location: simply specify the location of the company's
>>>>> offices/buildings; in the description the company can specify the
>>>>> countries
>>>>> of operation
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacopo
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny <
>>>>> [hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi !
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it came to my attention that this page :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
>>>>>> committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> this :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> public
>>>>>> good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial
>>>>>> entity
>>>>>> over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to fund
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> commercial activity without being taxed."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can also have a look at
>>>>>> http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       Apache projects are managed independently
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
>>>>>> that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
>>>>>> independence within their project community. The perception of existing
>>>>>> and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
>>>>>> independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
>>>>>> others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable both
>>>>>> joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
>>>>>> obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
>>>>>> discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
>>>>>> for the long term health of the project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
>>>>>> alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers
>>>>>> belong
>>>>>> to those companies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
>>>>>> do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One option
>>>>>> would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in on
>>>>>> the same line.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing users
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a look
>>>>>> at other project's page :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks !
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Emmanuel Lécharny
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

[Shi Jinghai-3]

Thank you Sharan!

You can remove my info there as I'm working for a startup company. The other 2 China companies are ok. The Brains Info has a customer Suning. I guess Suning's ecommerce website is based on OFBiz (Suning has just bought Football Club Internazionale Milano).

Kind Regards,

Shi Jinghai

-----邮件原件-----
发件人: Sharan Foga [mailto:[hidden email]]
发送时间: 2016年8月3日 15:43
收件人: [hidden email]
主题: Re: Apache OFBiz Service Providers page

I will start to implement some of these changes discussed here so if anyone else wants to join in and help, then please feel free.

Thanks
Sharan

On 2016-08-02 16:06 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <[hidden email]> wrote:

> While we wait for the new site we could:
>
> 0) add the page discalimer as suggested; additionally, as Jacques
> pointed out, this page is open to anyone who submits an ICLA and asks
> to be registered as OFBiz contributor: no one is really reviewing the
> data provided... we could mention this in the header of the page
> 1) merge the two lists into one
> 2) sort in alphabetical order
> 3) add a column with the number of committers; one with the number of
> contributors; we could add also a column with the number of employees
> working on OFBiz related projects; I don't think that this data would
> "unduly advantage one commercial entity": the idea is to provide some
> insight about the teams available to work on OFBiz specific projects
> 4) make the above columns sortable
> 5) Location: simply specify the location of the company's
> offices/buildings; in the description the company can specify the
> countries of operation
>
> Jacopo
>
> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny
> <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi !
> >
> >
> > it came to my attention that this page :
> >
> >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Servi
> > ce+Providers
> >
> > might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
> > committers before any other companies. This is a problem,
> > accordingly to this :
> >
> > "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for
> > the public good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage
> > one commercial entity over another -- otherwise, funding our
> > projects would be a way to fund a commercial activity without being
> > taxed."
> >
> >
> > You can also have a look at
> > http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
> >
> >
> > "
> >
> >
> >     Apache projects are managed independently
> >
> > Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure
> > that they are acting in the best interests of the project as a
> > whole. Note that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show
> > this independence within their project community. The perception of
> > existing and new participants within the community that the PMC is
> > run independently and without favoring any specific third parties
> > over others is important, to allow new contributors to feel
> > comfortable both joining the community and contributing their work.
> > A community that obviously favors one specific vendor in some
> > exclusive way will often discourage new contributors from competing
> > vendors, which is an issue for the long term health of the project.
> >
> > "
> >
> >
> > I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
> > alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers
> > belong to those companies.
> >
> > I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing
> > to do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One
> > option would be to add the list of countries a company provides
> > support in on the same line.
> >
> > A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing
> > users that neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You
> > can have a look at other project's page :
> >
> > http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
> >
> > http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >
> >
> > Thanks !
> >
> > Emmanuel Lécharny
> >
> >
>

[Sharan-F]

Hi

I've added some comments inline.

Thanks
Sharan

On 03/08/16 21:52, Pierre Smits wrote:
> I believe the link to the site of Antweb (ofbiz.info) adds little value, as
> the list can be sorted on location.
>
> Further more the columns 'number of committers/contributors' and
> 'Contributors' provide an unfair advantage to those with committers and
> more than 1 contributor.
This is something that is currently under discussion, and I know that we
have had some views both ways. I left these columns in for now, pending
the conclusion of that discussion.
> The same applies with to service providers with
> more than one location.
I disagree with this comment and the idea that having multiple locations
gives an unfair advantage. If a company has a registered legal entity in
more than one country then it is a valid company location. (Perhaps this
could be our criteria....)
> As I mentioned earlier, let the service providers
> do their marketing on their own site. Referencing blog sites, social media
> accounts, email addresses, etc falls into that category.
Agreed with exception of email addresses (see comment below)
>
> A link to the primary website of the service provider should be enough,
I don't think this is flexible enough. From the current list you will
see that not all service providers have a website, so in some cases a
contact email address may need to be used instead.

> resulting in following columns in the table:
>
>     - name
>     - Country, Province/Region/State
>     - website.
Might need to rename 'Website' as 'Contact Information' as not all
service providers have a website link.

>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Jacques Le Roux <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the effort Sharan!
>>
>> I'd wait a bit that people have a look. I just had a glance but did not
>> review all yet.
>>
>> for instance, I'm fine with http://www.ofbiz.info/control/providers but I
>> wonder if it follows the rules because I also did not read yet
>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking#productsupport
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 03/08/2016 à 14:21, Sharan Foga a écrit :
>>
>>> Hi All
>>>
>>> I have done an initial review of the service provider page and removed
>>> any of the links that are broken, no longer working or where the webpage
>>> has nothing to do with OFBiz. If I know that it is OFBiz related (even
>>> though I couldnt find it on the website, I have left it in the list). There
>>> are a few Chinese ones that I will need some help in de-coding :-)
>>>
>>> I think this list built up to a big size was because it was previously
>>> open and people just came in and created an entry and link to their
>>> website, even if it had absolutely nothing to do with OFBiz. Now with
>>> having to be a contributor to edit the wiki, I hope this will prevent this
>>> type of thing happening in the future.
>>>
>>> It is sorted alphabetically and I've removed the description column. I
>>> will take a look at the link Emmanuel has provided. Should I continue with
>>> the tidy up based on what has been talked about so far or should I wait to
>>> see if this needs to be discussed some more?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Sharan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2016-08-03 09:43 (+0200), "Sharan Foga"<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I will start to implement some of these changes discussed here so if
>>>> anyone else wants to join in and help, then please feel free.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Sharan
>>>>
>>>> On 2016-08-02 16:06 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> While we wait for the new site we could:
>>>>>
>>>>> 0) add the page discalimer as suggested; additionally, as Jacques
>>>>> pointed
>>>>> out, this page is open to anyone who submits an ICLA and asks to be
>>>>> registered as OFBiz contributor: no one is really reviewing the data
>>>>> provided... we could mention this in the header of the page
>>>>> 1) merge the two lists into one
>>>>> 2) sort in alphabetical order
>>>>> 3) add a column with the number of committers; one with the number of
>>>>> contributors; we could add also a column with the number of employees
>>>>> working on OFBiz related projects; I don't think that this data would
>>>>> "unduly
>>>>> advantage one commercial entity": the idea is to provide some insight
>>>>> about
>>>>> the teams available to work on OFBiz specific projects
>>>>> 4) make the above columns sortable
>>>>> 5) Location: simply specify the location of the company's
>>>>> offices/buildings; in the description the company can specify the
>>>>> countries
>>>>> of operation
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacopo
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny <
>>>>> [hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi !
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it came to my attention that this page :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
>>>>>> committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> this :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> public
>>>>>> good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial
>>>>>> entity
>>>>>> over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to fund
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> commercial activity without being taxed."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can also have a look at
>>>>>> http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       Apache projects are managed independently
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
>>>>>> that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
>>>>>> independence within their project community. The perception of existing
>>>>>> and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
>>>>>> independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
>>>>>> others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable both
>>>>>> joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
>>>>>> obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
>>>>>> discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
>>>>>> for the long term health of the project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
>>>>>> alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers
>>>>>> belong
>>>>>> to those companies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
>>>>>> do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One option
>>>>>> would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in on
>>>>>> the same line.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing users
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a look
>>>>>> at other project's page :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks !
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Emmanuel Lécharny
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

[Sharan-F]

Thanks for taking a look Shi. I'll do the update.

Thanks
Sharan

On 04/08/16 05:41, Shi Jinghai wrote:

> Thank you Sharan!
>
> You can remove my info there as I'm working for a startup company. The other 2 China companies are ok. The Brains Info has a customer Suning. I guess Suning's ecommerce website is based on OFBiz (Suning has just bought Football Club Internazionale Milano).
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Shi Jinghai
>
> -----邮件原件-----
> 发件人: Sharan Foga [mailto:[hidden email]]
> 发送时间: 2016年8月3日 15:43
> 收件人: [hidden email]
> 主题: Re: Apache OFBiz Service Providers page
>
> I will start to implement some of these changes discussed here so if anyone else wants to join in and help, then please feel free.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
> On 2016-08-02 16:06 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> While we wait for the new site we could:
>>
>> 0) add the page discalimer as suggested; additionally, as Jacques
>> pointed out, this page is open to anyone who submits an ICLA and asks
>> to be registered as OFBiz contributor: no one is really reviewing the
>> data provided... we could mention this in the header of the page
>> 1) merge the two lists into one
>> 2) sort in alphabetical order
>> 3) add a column with the number of committers; one with the number of
>> contributors; we could add also a column with the number of employees
>> working on OFBiz related projects; I don't think that this data would
>> "unduly advantage one commercial entity": the idea is to provide some
>> insight about the teams available to work on OFBiz specific projects
>> 4) make the above columns sortable
>> 5) Location: simply specify the location of the company's
>> offices/buildings; in the description the company can specify the
>> countries of operation
>>
>> Jacopo
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny
>> <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi !
>>>
>>>
>>> it came to my attention that this page :
>>>
>>>
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Servi
>>> ce+Providers
>>>
>>> might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
>>> committers before any other companies. This is a problem,
>>> accordingly to this :
>>>
>>> "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for
>>> the public good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage
>>> one commercial entity over another -- otherwise, funding our
>>> projects would be a way to fund a commercial activity without being
>>> taxed."
>>>
>>>
>>> You can also have a look at
>>> http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
>>>
>>>
>>> "
>>>
>>>
>>>      Apache projects are managed independently
>>>
>>> Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure
>>> that they are acting in the best interests of the project as a
>>> whole. Note that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show
>>> this independence within their project community. The perception of
>>> existing and new participants within the community that the PMC is
>>> run independently and without favoring any specific third parties
>>> over others is important, to allow new contributors to feel
>>> comfortable both joining the community and contributing their work.
>>> A community that obviously favors one specific vendor in some
>>> exclusive way will often discourage new contributors from competing
>>> vendors, which is an issue for the long term health of the project.
>>>
>>> "
>>>
>>>
>>> I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
>>> alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers
>>> belong to those companies.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing
>>> to do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One
>>> option would be to add the list of countries a company provides
>>> support in on the same line.
>>>
>>> A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing
>>> users that neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You
>>> can have a look at other project's page :
>>>
>>> http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
>>>
>>> http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks !
>>>
>>> Emmanuel Lécharny
>>>
>>>

[Scott Gray-3]

>
> Further more the columns 'number of committers/contributors' and
> 'Contributors' provide an unfair advantage to those with committers and
> more than 1 contributor.
>

An advantage?  Perhaps.  Unfair? I'm not so sure about that.

Pros:
If it does convey an advantage then perhaps that might encourage companies
to contribute more which is good for the project both in terms of diversity
and contributions.

Cons:
What does it mean to be a contributor?  If I create a single JIRA ticket
for some minor thing can I then be considered a contributor for the rest of
eternity?  If not, then we have to define some rules and I hate the idea of
adding pointless rules.  For this reason I don't like the idea of including
a count, but definitely not because of any perception of unfairness.

The same applies with to service providers with
> more than one location.
>

This I disagree with, it is not unfair to state the locations where the
company employees work from.  I think that's information that the page
users would find useful, and if it is important to them then attempting to
figure out that information by following tens or hundreds of links isn't
very useful.  To claim it is an advantage is in itself an admittance that
the information would be found useful, is it not?  It's very
straightforward factual information and unlike 'number of contributors' it
doesn't require any rules or definitions and isn't open to interpretation.

Regards
Scott


On 4 August 2016 at 07:52, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I believe the link to the site of Antweb (ofbiz.info) adds little value,
> as
> the list can be sorted on location.
>
> Further more the columns 'number of committers/contributors' and
> 'Contributors' provide an unfair advantage to those with committers and
> more than 1 contributor. The same applies with to service providers with
> more than one location. As I mentioned earlier, let the service providers
> do their marketing on their own site. Referencing blog sites, social media
> accounts, email addresses, etc falls into that category.
>
> A link to the primary website of the service provider should be enough,
> resulting in following columns in the table:
>
>    - name
>    - Country, Province/Region/State
>    - website.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Jacques Le Roux <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the effort Sharan!
> >
> > I'd wait a bit that people have a look. I just had a glance but did not
> > review all yet.
> >
> > for instance, I'm fine with http://www.ofbiz.info/control/providers but
> I
> > wonder if it follows the rules because I also did not read yet
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking#productsupport
> >
> > Jacques
> >
> >
> >
> > Le 03/08/2016 à 14:21, Sharan Foga a écrit :
> >
> >> Hi All
> >>
> >> I have done an initial review of the service provider page and removed
> >> any of the links that are broken, no longer working or where the webpage
> >> has nothing to do with OFBiz. If I know that it is OFBiz related (even
> >> though I couldnt find it on the website, I have left it in the list).
> There
> >> are a few Chinese ones that I will need some help in de-coding :-)
> >>
> >> I think this list built up to a big size was because it was previously
> >> open and people just came in and created an entry and link to their
> >> website, even if it had absolutely nothing to do with OFBiz. Now with
> >> having to be a contributor to edit the wiki, I hope this will prevent
> this
> >> type of thing happening in the future.
> >>
> >> It is sorted alphabetically and I've removed the description column. I
> >> will take a look at the link Emmanuel has provided. Should I continue
> with
> >> the tidy up based on what has been talked about so far or should I wait
> to
> >> see if this needs to be discussed some more?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> Sharan
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2016-08-03 09:43 (+0200), "Sharan Foga"<[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I will start to implement some of these changes discussed here so if
> >>> anyone else wants to join in and help, then please feel free.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Sharan
> >>>
> >>> On 2016-08-02 16:06 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <
> >>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> While we wait for the new site we could:
> >>>>
> >>>> 0) add the page discalimer as suggested; additionally, as Jacques
> >>>> pointed
> >>>> out, this page is open to anyone who submits an ICLA and asks to be
> >>>> registered as OFBiz contributor: no one is really reviewing the data
> >>>> provided... we could mention this in the header of the page
> >>>> 1) merge the two lists into one
> >>>> 2) sort in alphabetical order
> >>>> 3) add a column with the number of committers; one with the number of
> >>>> contributors; we could add also a column with the number of employees
> >>>> working on OFBiz related projects; I don't think that this data would
> >>>> "unduly
> >>>> advantage one commercial entity": the idea is to provide some insight
> >>>> about
> >>>> the teams available to work on OFBiz specific projects
> >>>> 4) make the above columns sortable
> >>>> 5) Location: simply specify the location of the company's
> >>>> offices/buildings; in the description the company can specify the
> >>>> countries
> >>>> of operation
> >>>>
> >>>> Jacopo
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny <
> >>>> [hidden email]>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi !
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> it came to my attention that this page :
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/
> Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
> >>>>>
> >>>>> might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
> >>>>> committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> this :
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> public
> >>>>> good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial
> >>>>> entity
> >>>>> over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to
> fund
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> commercial activity without being taxed."
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You can also have a look at
> >>>>> http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>      Apache projects are managed independently
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
> >>>>> that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
> >>>>> independence within their project community. The perception of
> existing
> >>>>> and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
> >>>>> independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
> >>>>> others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable
> both
> >>>>> joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
> >>>>> obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
> >>>>> discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
> >>>>> for the long term health of the project.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
> >>>>> alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers
> >>>>> belong
> >>>>> to those companies.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
> >>>>> do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One
> option
> >>>>> would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in
> on
> >>>>> the same line.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing
> users
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a
> look
> >>>>> at other project's page :
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks !
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Emmanuel Lécharny
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >
>

[Sharan-F]

Hi All

Just following up on this again as would like to get the Service Providers page tidied up. Looking at the links Emmanuel sent, I think that the column with committer names needs to removed, and I would also probably remove the number contributors column too.

One thing to bear in mind is that I don't think this list changes very much, so I would try to keep the information at a level that doesn't need a lot of maintenance.

My suggestion would be to keep it as 3 columns, name, location(s) and contact. Location can be wherever the company has a physical presence (so includes employees located there). The contact would be a website or an email, and any other links eg social media would go.

Please let me know if this would be an acceptable solution for everyone.

Thanks
Sharan

On 2016-08-05 00:54 (+0200), Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >
> > Further more the columns 'number of committers/contributors' and
> > 'Contributors' provide an unfair advantage to those with committers and
> > more than 1 contributor.
> >
>
> An advantage?  Perhaps.  Unfair? I'm not so sure about that.
>
> Pros:
> If it does convey an advantage then perhaps that might encourage companies
> to contribute more which is good for the project both in terms of diversity
> and contributions.
>
> Cons:
> What does it mean to be a contributor?  If I create a single JIRA ticket
> for some minor thing can I then be considered a contributor for the rest of
> eternity?  If not, then we have to define some rules and I hate the idea of
> adding pointless rules.  For this reason I don't like the idea of including
> a count, but definitely not because of any perception of unfairness.
>
> The same applies with to service providers with
> > more than one location.
> >
>
> This I disagree with, it is not unfair to state the locations where the
> company employees work from.  I think that's information that the page
> users would find useful, and if it is important to them then attempting to
> figure out that information by following tens or hundreds of links isn't
> very useful.  To claim it is an advantage is in itself an admittance that
> the information would be found useful, is it not?  It's very
> straightforward factual information and unlike 'number of contributors' it
> doesn't require any rules or definitions and isn't open to interpretation.
>
> Regards
> Scott
>
>
> On 4 August 2016 at 07:52, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I believe the link to the site of Antweb (ofbiz.info) adds little value,
> > as
> > the list can be sorted on location.
> >
> > Further more the columns 'number of committers/contributors' and
> > 'Contributors' provide an unfair advantage to those with committers and
> > more than 1 contributor. The same applies with to service providers with
> > more than one location. As I mentioned earlier, let the service providers
> > do their marketing on their own site. Referencing blog sites, social media
> > accounts, email addresses, etc falls into that category.
> >
> > A link to the primary website of the service provider should be enough,
> > resulting in following columns in the table:
> >
> >    - name
> >    - Country, Province/Region/State
> >    - website.
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > OFBiz based solutions & services
> >
> > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Jacques Le Roux <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for the effort Sharan!
> > >
> > > I'd wait a bit that people have a look. I just had a glance but did not
> > > review all yet.
> > >
> > > for instance, I'm fine with http://www.ofbiz.info/control/providers but
> > I
> > > wonder if it follows the rules because I also did not read yet
> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking#productsupport
> > >
> > > Jacques
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Le 03/08/2016 à 14:21, Sharan Foga a écrit :
> > >
> > >> Hi All
> > >>
> > >> I have done an initial review of the service provider page and removed
> > >> any of the links that are broken, no longer working or where the webpage
> > >> has nothing to do with OFBiz. If I know that it is OFBiz related (even
> > >> though I couldnt find it on the website, I have left it in the list).
> > There
> > >> are a few Chinese ones that I will need some help in de-coding :-)
> > >>
> > >> I think this list built up to a big size was because it was previously
> > >> open and people just came in and created an entry and link to their
> > >> website, even if it had absolutely nothing to do with OFBiz. Now with
> > >> having to be a contributor to edit the wiki, I hope this will prevent
> > this
> > >> type of thing happening in the future.
> > >>
> > >> It is sorted alphabetically and I've removed the description column. I
> > >> will take a look at the link Emmanuel has provided. Should I continue
> > with
> > >> the tidy up based on what has been talked about so far or should I wait
> > to
> > >> see if this needs to be discussed some more?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks
> > >> Sharan
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 2016-08-03 09:43 (+0200), "Sharan Foga"<[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I will start to implement some of these changes discussed here so if
> > >>> anyone else wants to join in and help, then please feel free.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks
> > >>> Sharan
> > >>>
> > >>> On 2016-08-02 16:06 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <
> > >>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> While we wait for the new site we could:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 0) add the page discalimer as suggested; additionally, as Jacques
> > >>>> pointed
> > >>>> out, this page is open to anyone who submits an ICLA and asks to be
> > >>>> registered as OFBiz contributor: no one is really reviewing the data
> > >>>> provided... we could mention this in the header of the page
> > >>>> 1) merge the two lists into one
> > >>>> 2) sort in alphabetical order
> > >>>> 3) add a column with the number of committers; one with the number of
> > >>>> contributors; we could add also a column with the number of employees
> > >>>> working on OFBiz related projects; I don't think that this data would
> > >>>> "unduly
> > >>>> advantage one commercial entity": the idea is to provide some insight
> > >>>> about
> > >>>> the teams available to work on OFBiz specific projects
> > >>>> 4) make the above columns sortable
> > >>>> 5) Location: simply specify the location of the company's
> > >>>> offices/buildings; in the description the company can specify the
> > >>>> countries
> > >>>> of operation
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Jacopo
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny <
> > >>>> [hidden email]>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi !
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> it came to my attention that this page :
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/
> > Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
> > >>>>> committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>>> this :
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>> public
> > >>>>> good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial
> > >>>>> entity
> > >>>>> over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to
> > fund
> > >>>>> a
> > >>>>> commercial activity without being taxed."
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You can also have a look at
> > >>>>> http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>      Apache projects are managed independently
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure
> > >>>>> that
> > >>>>> they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
> > >>>>> that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
> > >>>>> independence within their project community. The perception of
> > existing
> > >>>>> and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
> > >>>>> independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
> > >>>>> others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable
> > both
> > >>>>> joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
> > >>>>> obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
> > >>>>> discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
> > >>>>> for the long term health of the project.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
> > >>>>> alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers
> > >>>>> belong
> > >>>>> to those companies.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
> > >>>>> do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One
> > option
> > >>>>> would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in
> > on
> > >>>>> the same line.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing
> > users
> > >>>>> that
> > >>>>> neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a
> > look
> > >>>>> at other project's page :
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thanks !
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Emmanuel Lécharny
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >
> >
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

+1, I'd simply warn again about plain email addresses (spam likes that)

Jacques


Le 09/08/2016 à 14:05, Sharan Foga a écrit :

> Hi All
>
> Just following up on this again as would like to get the Service Providers page tidied up. Looking at the links Emmanuel sent, I think that the column with committer names needs to removed, and I would also probably remove the number contributors column too.
>
> One thing to bear in mind is that I don't think this list changes very much, so I would try to keep the information at a level that doesn't need a lot of maintenance.
>
> My suggestion would be to keep it as 3 columns, name, location(s) and contact. Location can be wherever the company has a physical presence (so includes employees located there). The contact would be a website or an email, and any other links eg social media would go.
>
> Please let me know if this would be an acceptable solution for everyone.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
> On 2016-08-05 00:54 (+0200), Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Further more the columns 'number of committers/contributors' and
>>> 'Contributors' provide an unfair advantage to those with committers and
>>> more than 1 contributor.
>>>
>> An advantage?  Perhaps.  Unfair? I'm not so sure about that.
>>
>> Pros:
>> If it does convey an advantage then perhaps that might encourage companies
>> to contribute more which is good for the project both in terms of diversity
>> and contributions.
>>
>> Cons:
>> What does it mean to be a contributor?  If I create a single JIRA ticket
>> for some minor thing can I then be considered a contributor for the rest of
>> eternity?  If not, then we have to define some rules and I hate the idea of
>> adding pointless rules.  For this reason I don't like the idea of including
>> a count, but definitely not because of any perception of unfairness.
>>
>> The same applies with to service providers with
>>> more than one location.
>>>
>> This I disagree with, it is not unfair to state the locations where the
>> company employees work from.  I think that's information that the page
>> users would find useful, and if it is important to them then attempting to
>> figure out that information by following tens or hundreds of links isn't
>> very useful.  To claim it is an advantage is in itself an admittance that
>> the information would be found useful, is it not?  It's very
>> straightforward factual information and unlike 'number of contributors' it
>> doesn't require any rules or definitions and isn't open to interpretation.
>>
>> Regards
>> Scott
>>
>>
>> On 4 August 2016 at 07:52, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I believe the link to the site of Antweb (ofbiz.info) adds little value,
>>> as
>>> the list can be sorted on location.
>>>
>>> Further more the columns 'number of committers/contributors' and
>>> 'Contributors' provide an unfair advantage to those with committers and
>>> more than 1 contributor. The same applies with to service providers with
>>> more than one location. As I mentioned earlier, let the service providers
>>> do their marketing on their own site. Referencing blog sites, social media
>>> accounts, email addresses, etc falls into that category.
>>>
>>> A link to the primary website of the service provider should be enough,
>>> resulting in following columns in the table:
>>>
>>>     - name
>>>     - Country, Province/Region/State
>>>     - website.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Pierre Smits
>>>
>>> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
>>> OFBiz based solutions & services
>>>
>>> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
>>> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Jacques Le Roux <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for the effort Sharan!
>>>>
>>>> I'd wait a bit that people have a look. I just had a glance but did not
>>>> review all yet.
>>>>
>>>> for instance, I'm fine with http://www.ofbiz.info/control/providers but
>>> I
>>>> wonder if it follows the rules because I also did not read yet
>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking#productsupport
>>>>
>>>> Jacques
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 03/08/2016 à  14:21, Sharan Foga a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All
>>>>>
>>>>> I have done an initial review of the service provider page and removed
>>>>> any of the links that are broken, no longer working or where the webpage
>>>>> has nothing to do with OFBiz. If I know that it is OFBiz related (even
>>>>> though I couldnt find it on the website, I have left it in the list).
>>> There
>>>>> are a few Chinese ones that I will need some help in de-coding :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this list built up to a big size was because it was previously
>>>>> open and people just came in and created an entry and link to their
>>>>> website, even if it had absolutely nothing to do with OFBiz. Now with
>>>>> having to be a contributor to edit the wiki, I hope this will prevent
>>> this
>>>>> type of thing happening in the future.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is sorted alphabetically and I've removed the description column. I
>>>>> will take a look at the link Emmanuel has provided. Should I continue
>>> with
>>>>> the tidy up based on what has been talked about so far or should I wait
>>> to
>>>>> see if this needs to be discussed some more?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Sharan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2016-08-03 09:43 (+0200), "Sharan Foga"<[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I will start to implement some of these changes discussed here so if
>>>>>> anyone else wants to join in and help, then please feel free.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Sharan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2016-08-02 16:06 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <
>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While we wait for the new site we could:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 0) add the page discalimer as suggested; additionally, as Jacques
>>>>>>> pointed
>>>>>>> out, this page is open to anyone who submits an ICLA and asks to be
>>>>>>> registered as OFBiz contributor: no one is really reviewing the data
>>>>>>> provided... we could mention this in the header of the page
>>>>>>> 1) merge the two lists into one
>>>>>>> 2) sort in alphabetical order
>>>>>>> 3) add a column with the number of committers; one with the number of
>>>>>>> contributors; we could add also a column with the number of employees
>>>>>>> working on OFBiz related projects; I don't think that this data would
>>>>>>> "unduly
>>>>>>> advantage one commercial entity": the idea is to provide some insight
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> the teams available to work on OFBiz specific projects
>>>>>>> 4) make the above columns sortable
>>>>>>> 5) Location: simply specify the location of the company's
>>>>>>> offices/buildings; in the description the company can specify the
>>>>>>> countries
>>>>>>> of operation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jacopo
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny <
>>>>>>> [hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi !
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> it came to my attention that this page :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/
>>> Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
>>>>>>>> might not be neutral enough, as it lists companies having Ofbiz
>>>>>>>> committers before any other companies. This is a problem, accordingly
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> this :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Apache is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, which is a tax-exempt charity for
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> public
>>>>>>>> good.  As such, our projects must not unduly advantage one commercial
>>>>>>>> entity
>>>>>>>> over another -- otherwise, funding our projects would be a way to
>>> fund
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> commercial activity without being taxed."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You can also have a look at
>>>>>>>> http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>       Apache projects are managed independently
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apache projects must be managed independently, and PMCs must ensure
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> they are acting in the best interests of the project as a whole. Note
>>>>>>>> that it is similarly important that the PMC clearly show this
>>>>>>>> independence within their project community. The perception of
>>> existing
>>>>>>>> and new participants within the community that the PMC is run
>>>>>>>> independently and without favoring any specific third parties over
>>>>>>>> others is important, to allow new contributors to feel comfortable
>>> both
>>>>>>>> joining the community and contributing their work. A community that
>>>>>>>> obviously favors one specific vendor in some exclusive way will often
>>>>>>>> discourage new contributors from competing vendors, which is an issue
>>>>>>>> for the long term health of the project.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would suggest you rework this page to order the company using an
>>>>>>>> alphabetical order, not mentionning the fact taht some committers
>>>>>>>> belong
>>>>>>>> to those companies.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure that grouping companies by country is the right thing to
>>>>>>>> do, as some of them might provide support in many countries. One
>>> option
>>>>>>>> would be to add the list of countries a company provides support in
>>> on
>>>>>>>> the same line.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A disclaimer at the top of the page may also be added, informing
>>> users
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> neither Apache nor the project endorse any company. You can have a
>>> look
>>>>>>>> at other project's page :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://cxf.apache.org/commercial-cxf-offerings.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks !
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Emmanuel Lécharny
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>