Apache server, Tomcat , SEO and 302 issue

[Jacques Le Roux]

Hi All,

Supportin temporary or permanent redirection of matching requests in Tomcat is pious vow from some times now (http://www.jajakarta.org/tomcat/tomcat3.2-4.0/tomcat-4.0b5/src/catalina/docs/dev/todo.html see [org.apache.catalina.valves.RedirectValve])

So when in OFBiz, using Apache server as frontal with jkmount, if someone ask for  a domain (say http://www.domain.com) this activate a redirection to http://www.domain.com/control/main. An you get a 302 redirect (moved temporarily) and not a 301 (permanent). Not persuaded ? see http://livehttpheaders.mozdev.org/. This makes sense because if it's permanent why use something dynamic ? But the problem with 302 is that it's not good for search engines (this is clearly explained in the 2d link below). So I searched for a solution. I found 2
  a.. http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231044 
  b.. http://blog.spaceprogram.com/2003/06/fixing-tomcat-302-redirect-issue_18.html
I tried the 1st in 1st place but got not the expected result. I guess because the jkmount gives no chance to a 404. I wonder now how OFBiz users deals with this problem before creating my own Tomcat version (actually I will simply replace the concerned class in the corresponding jar) inspired by the 2d solution... Any ideas, advices ?

Thanks

Jacques

PS : I looked also at rewrite rules solutions as in http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum92/2309.htm

[David Garrett]

Jacques,

I think relying on SEO information from 2003(ref a.) and Feb 2005(ref b.) in
SEO is dangerous.

There has been considerable effort by the SEs in the last 1/2 years to
improve redirect handling, eg Google Bigdaddy introduction and Yahoo's
"standard" behaviour as given in the links below.

http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/seo-advice-discussing-302-redirects/ 
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/ysearch/slurp/slurp-11.html

I would suggest these are quite authorative pages.

This is a VERY subjective area but for me, using your example, I would
rather have www.domain.com indexed rather than www.domain.com/control/main.
As this is an "in domain" transfer a 302 temporary redirect (for me) is the
correct solution on all counts.

I don't completely follow what your change proposes but for me keep the 302.

I know this is a very subjective areas and you will get informed and
uninformed views to the contrary. The key point to consider is what do you
want indexed in the SERPs? My preference is the shorter URL.

David G

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jacques Le Roux [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2007 9:57 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Apache server, Tomcat , SEO and 302 issue
>
> Hi All,
>
> Supportin temporary or permanent redirection of matching
> requests in Tomcat is pious vow from some times now
> (http://www.jajakarta.org/tomcat/tomcat3.2-4.0/tomcat-4.0b5/sr
> c/catalina/docs/dev/todo.html see
> [org.apache.catalina.valves.RedirectValve])
>
> So when in OFBiz, using Apache server as frontal with
> jkmount, if someone ask for  a domain (say
> http://www.domain.com) this activate a redirection to
> http://www.domain.com/control/main. An you get a 302 redirect
> (moved temporarily) and not a 301 (permanent). Not persuaded
> ? see http://livehttpheaders.mozdev.org/. This makes sense
> because if it's permanent why use something dynamic ? But the
> problem with 302 is that it's not good for search engines
> (this is clearly explained in the 2d link below). So I
> searched for a solution. I found 2
>   a.. http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231044
>   b..
> http://blog.spaceprogram.com/2003/06/fixing-tomcat-302-redirec
> t-issue_18.html
> I tried the 1st in 1st place but got not the expected result.
> I guess because the jkmount gives no chance to a 404. I
> wonder now how OFBiz users deals with this problem before
> creating my own Tomcat version (actually I will simply
> replace the concerned class in the corresponding jar)
> inspired by the 2d solution... Any ideas, advices ?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jacques
>
> PS : I looked also at rewrite rules solutions as in
> http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum92/2309.htm
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Thanks David,

I was asked this by a client who uses a pre-Apache OFBiz  version (rev. 4969). He was advised by a SEO company. The problem is that,
for the moment, the page indexed is target and not source. My client would prefer to see her domain page (whitout suffix) showing
1st in Google...I have to read deeper in that later. At 1st reading the status has changed either for Google and Yahoo, MNS status
is unclear.

I wonder if we should not use a modified Tomcat OOTB to handle this. Perhaps there are other ways to do it (Rewrite rules ?) but
doing so this problem will vanish forever (just have to reaplied the patch when upgrading Tomcat until they introduce a parameter
themself as it's planified in link below).

I will let you know as soon as I completly clear on that, this is not a high priority ...

Jacques

PS : the current target behavior seems correct : http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/seo-advice-url-canonicalization/ (look for 302)

De : "David Garrett" <[hidden email]>

> Jacques,
>
> I think relying on SEO information from 2003(ref a.) and Feb 2005(ref b.) in
> SEO is dangerous.
>
> There has been considerable effort by the SEs in the last 1/2 years to
> improve redirect handling, eg Google Bigdaddy introduction and Yahoo's
> "standard" behaviour as given in the links below.
>
> http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/seo-advice-discussing-302-redirects/
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/ysearch/slurp/slurp-11.html
>
> I would suggest these are quite authorative pages.
>
> This is a VERY subjective area but for me, using your example, I would
> rather have www.domain.com indexed rather than www.domain.com/control/main.
> As this is an "in domain" transfer a 302 temporary redirect (for me) is the
> correct solution on all counts.
>
> I don't completely follow what your change proposes but for me keep the 302.
>
> I know this is a very subjective areas and you will get informed and
> uninformed views to the contrary. The key point to consider is what do you
> want indexed in the SERPs? My preference is the shorter URL.
>
> David G
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jacques Le Roux [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2007 9:57 PM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Apache server, Tomcat , SEO and 302 issue
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Supportin temporary or permanent redirection of matching
> > requests in Tomcat is pious vow from some times now
> > (http://www.jajakarta.org/tomcat/tomcat3.2-4.0/tomcat-4.0b5/sr
> > c/catalina/docs/dev/todo.html see
> > [org.apache.catalina.valves.RedirectValve])
> >
> > So when in OFBiz, using Apache server as frontal with
> > jkmount, if someone ask for  a domain (say
> > http://www.domain.com) this activate a redirection to
> > http://www.domain.com/control/main. An you get a 302 redirect
> > (moved temporarily) and not a 301 (permanent). Not persuaded
> > ? see http://livehttpheaders.mozdev.org/. This makes sense
> > because if it's permanent why use something dynamic ? But the
> > problem with 302 is that it's not good for search engines
> > (this is clearly explained in the 2d link below). So I
> > searched for a solution. I found 2
> >   a.. http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231044
> >   b..
> > http://blog.spaceprogram.com/2003/06/fixing-tomcat-302-redirec
> > t-issue_18.html
> > I tried the 1st in 1st place but got not the expected result.
> > I guess because the jkmount gives no chance to a 404. I
> > wonder now how OFBiz users deals with this problem before
> > creating my own Tomcat version (actually I will simply
> > replace the concerned class in the corresponding jar)
> > inspired by the 2d solution... Any ideas, advices ?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Jacques
> >
> > PS : I looked also at rewrite rules solutions as in
> > http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum92/2309.htm
> >
>

[Brett]

I have had similar requests from clients that use an Apache-Tomcat
combination.  In this case it was a tomcat struts application but the
problem was the same for ofbiz.

We were advised that redirecting to tomcat was not recommended for
SEO.  This is particularly a problem when the whole site it in tomcat
and apache is just used as a frontend with a single page.

I would be interested in the correct answer for SEO
 and if anyone has found an optimal solution.


Brett

On 7/23/07, Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks David,
>
> I was asked this by a client who uses a pre-Apache OFBiz  version (rev.
> 4969). He was advised by a SEO company. The problem is that,
> for the moment, the page indexed is target and not source. My client would
> prefer to see her domain page (whitout suffix) showing
> 1st in Google...I have to read deeper in that later. At 1st reading the
> status has changed either for Google and Yahoo, MNS status
> is unclear.
>
> I wonder if we should not use a modified Tomcat OOTB to handle this. Perhaps
> there are other ways to do it (Rewrite rules ?) but
> doing so this problem will vanish forever (just have to reaplied the patch
> when upgrading Tomcat until they introduce a parameter
> themself as it's planified in link below).
>
> I will let you know as soon as I completly clear on that, this is not a high
> priority ...
>
> Jacques
>
> PS : the current target behavior seems correct :
> http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/seo-advice-url-canonicalization/ (look for
> 302)
>
> De : "David Garrett" <[hidden email]>
> > Jacques,
> >
> > I think relying on SEO information from 2003(ref a.) and Feb 2005(ref b.)
> in
> > SEO is dangerous.
> >
> > There has been considerable effort by the SEs in the last 1/2 years to
> > improve redirect handling, eg Google Bigdaddy introduction and Yahoo's
> > "standard" behaviour as given in the links below.
> >
> > http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/seo-advice-discussing-302-redirects/
> > http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/ysearch/slurp/slurp-11.html
> >
> > I would suggest these are quite authorative pages.
> >
> > This is a VERY subjective area but for me, using your example, I would
> > rather have www.domain.com indexed rather than
> www.domain.com/control/main.
> > As this is an "in domain" transfer a 302 temporary redirect (for me) is
> the
> > correct solution on all counts.
> >
> > I don't completely follow what your change proposes but for me keep the
> 302.
> >
> > I know this is a very subjective areas and you will get informed and
> > uninformed views to the contrary. The key point to consider is what do you
> > want indexed in the SERPs? My preference is the shorter URL.
> >
> > David G
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jacques Le Roux [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > > Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2007 9:57 PM
> > > To: [hidden email]
> > > Subject: Apache server, Tomcat , SEO and 302 issue
> > >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > Supportin temporary or permanent redirection of matching
> > > requests in Tomcat is pious vow from some times now
> > > (http://www.jajakarta.org/tomcat/tomcat3.2-4.0/tomcat-4.0b5/sr
> > > c/catalina/docs/dev/todo.html see
> > > [org.apache.catalina.valves.RedirectValve])
> > >
> > > So when in OFBiz, using Apache server as frontal with
> > > jkmount, if someone ask for  a domain (say
> > > http://www.domain.com) this activate a redirection to
> > > http://www.domain.com/control/main. An you get a 302 redirect
> > > (moved temporarily) and not a 301 (permanent). Not persuaded
> > > ? see http://livehttpheaders.mozdev.org/. This makes sense
> > > because if it's permanent why use something dynamic ? But the
> > > problem with 302 is that it's not good for search engines
> > > (this is clearly explained in the 2d link below). So I
> > > searched for a solution. I found 2
> > >   a.. http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231044
> > >   b..
> > > http://blog.spaceprogram.com/2003/06/fixing-tomcat-302-redirec
> > > t-issue_18.html
> > > I tried the 1st in 1st place but got not the expected result.
> > > I guess because the jkmount gives no chance to a 404. I
> > > wonder now how OFBiz users deals with this problem before
> > > creating my own Tomcat version (actually I will simply
> > > replace the concerned class in the corresponding jar)
> > > inspired by the 2d solution... Any ideas, advices ?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Jacques
> > >
> > > PS : I looked also at rewrite rules solutions as in
> > > http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum92/2309.htm
> > >
> >
>
>