ApacheCon 2009 Round Table User Feedback

[Brett]

Here are the notes that I took during the ApacheCon 2009 User Round Table.
The conference was a success but I believe was less attended than normal.
I've been to about 6 ofbiz conferences and this one was the least attended
by ofbiz users than others.  I attribute this to the current economic
situation rather than anything else.

 Interestingly, a lot of the comments during the round table were similar to
ones that we have had in the past. The project continues to make progress
but from outsiders it is difficult to measure as some of the new features
takes months to see in the end product.

 There were six people in attendance at the round table. A few had to leave
early to catch planes in the afternoon.  Of those that attended the round
table two were speakers (myself and Ruth). Three of the attendees were
service providers trying to better understand the direction of ofbiz and one
was a new user that was active in other Apache projects and wanted to know
more about ofbiz.


Here are the key comments:

 * Everyone was very interested in the new project that Dave introduced a
couple of weeks ago about a specialized application for small business. They
wanted to know a lot more about this project and what it would include.
There was a lot of excitement about the proposal.  I didn't have a lot of
details to share so I told them to watch the mailing list for more details
on the subject.

 * Most common complaint. The UI for the out of the box ecommerce
application. The general feedback was that from a technical perspective
people like ofbiz but it was difficult to convince key business people that
ofbiz was right for their organization because of the lacking "sizzle" in
the default application.   Non-technical people have a hard time determining
how difficult it is to customize the UI and in a quick review will opt for a
better looking application because that is all they can really evaluate.
The general thought was that the lack of a very nice front end was slowing
the adoption for ofbiz

 * Another suggestion was around content management. The ofbiz CMS is not
fully complete with a UI and business logic. The question was asked if it
was possible to plugin other CSM packages the the Java Content Repository
(JCR).

 * There were some comments on OpenTaps and what it means to OFBiz. This is
always an interesting discussion and I tried to explain the licensing
problems with using OpenTaps. The one benefit people had about using
OpenTaps is that it has a full CRM application that people can use from the
start.  OfBiz is more general and requires more customization.

 * SugarCRM and other similar applications are examples of very large user
communities because the application is a complete solution.  It is difficult
to convince people to use ofbiz because there are pieces that are not
complete and require customization.  The ability to customize is a benefit
for some users but a drawback for others and is a hindrance to wide spread
adoption.

 * Is it possible to break up the components more into separate installable
modules. For example, framework versus applications.  We discussed how this
is currently done but the feedback was to make it easier for people to pick
and choose what components to install.

 * Any plans to integrate a complete rules engine into ofbiz

 * Version control for release branches. Are they plans to do more frequent
releases?  The current download of the nightly build is misleading as user
think it is a stable release build but it is really just the nightly build
from the trunk.

 * It was stated that OFBiz is a unique apache project as it is focused on
business solutions where as most apache projects focus on a single technical
problem.  How that technology is used in an application is generally
irrelevant.  OFBiz is different in that it tries to provide a complete
solution for businesses and users. The feedback was that in the future it
would be nice to attract more end users to the ofbiz apache conference
rather than technical people that implement the solution. This was agreed
that if there were more complete applications that the user community would
grow and all people in the community would benefit.

 * Another strategy for OFBiz would be to define business best practices and
then implement those processes into the applications. This is a difficult
task as all businesses are unique but just as ofbiz adopted a common data
model there most be common business practices that would benefit all
businesses.

 * Improving the integration of the seleniumXml test framework with the
existing ofbiz test framework. Also more examples of tests using the OOTB
ofbiz applications would be desired.

The above comments are notes that I took during the round table discussion.
They are not my own personal opinions but of those of the group.  Please
feel free to comment on these ideas for the benefit of the community.

Overall, the people attending the conference commented that they would like
OFBiz to continue to have these each year.  They would like to see more
users attending the conference in the future.

Thanks,


Brett

[Jacques Le Roux]

Thanks Brett,

This was very intersting to read. It seems that we (OFBiz users) are converging toward the same needs (CMS with JCR, CRM), hopefully
we will have more strenght to achieve them...
Though I don't expect much for the release process as we still lack human ressources commited toward this goal (and I don't mean
only commiters).

Few comments inline...

Jacques

From: "Brett Palmer" <[hidden email]>
> * Another suggestion was around content management. The ofbiz CMS is not
> fully complete with a UI and business logic. The question was asked if it
> was possible to plugin other CSM packages the the Java Content Repository
> (JCR).

There has been discussions on dev ML about replacing the current implementation with something based on JCR (wy not
http://jackrabbit.apache.org/) but nothing concret for the moment.

> * SugarCRM and other similar applications are examples of very large user
> communities because the application is a complete solution.  It is difficult
> to convince people to use ofbiz because there are pieces that are not
> complete and require customization.  The ability to customize is a benefit
> for some users but a drawback for others and is a hindrance to wide spread
> adoption.

I really thing we are not so far from a complete implementation that could compete wih SugarCRM. Though SugarCRM has quite an
advance on the ergonomic side...

> * Is it possible to break up the components more into separate installable
> modules. For example, framework versus applications.  We discussed how this
> is currently done but the feedback was to make it easier for people to pick
> and choose what components to install.

OSGI ? But is this really a priority for OFBiz ?

> * Any plans to integrate a complete rules engine into ofbiz

Drools was suggested sometimes

> * Version control for release branches. Are they plans to do more frequent
> releases?  The current download of the nightly build is misleading as user
> think it is a stable release build but it is really just the nightly build
> from the trunk.

I guess this is because we pusch to use the trunk ;o)

> Brett
>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi Brett:
Thanks so much for doing this.
Ruth

Brett Palmer wrote:

> Here are the notes that I took during the ApacheCon 2009 User Round Table.
> The conference was a success but I believe was less attended than normal.
> I've been to about 6 ofbiz conferences and this one was the least attended
> by ofbiz users than others.  I attribute this to the current economic
> situation rather than anything else.
>
>  Interestingly, a lot of the comments during the round table were similar to
> ones that we have had in the past. The project continues to make progress
> but from outsiders it is difficult to measure as some of the new features
> takes months to see in the end product.
>
>  There were six people in attendance at the round table. A few had to leave
> early to catch planes in the afternoon.  Of those that attended the round
> table two were speakers (myself and Ruth). Three of the attendees were
> service providers trying to better understand the direction of ofbiz and one
> was a new user that was active in other Apache projects and wanted to know
> more about ofbiz.
>
>
> Here are the key comments:
>
>  * Everyone was very interested in the new project that Dave introduced a
> couple of weeks ago about a specialized application for small business. They
> wanted to know a lot more about this project and what it would include.
> There was a lot of excitement about the proposal.  I didn't have a lot of
> details to share so I told them to watch the mailing list for more details
> on the subject.
>
>  * Most common complaint. The UI for the out of the box ecommerce
> application. The general feedback was that from a technical perspective
> people like ofbiz but it was difficult to convince key business people that
> ofbiz was right for their organization because of the lacking "sizzle" in
> the default application.   Non-technical people have a hard time determining
> how difficult it is to customize the UI and in a quick review will opt for a
> better looking application because that is all they can really evaluate.
> The general thought was that the lack of a very nice front end was slowing
> the adoption for ofbiz
>
>  * Another suggestion was around content management. The ofbiz CMS is not
> fully complete with a UI and business logic. The question was asked if it
> was possible to plugin other CSM packages the the Java Content Repository
> (JCR).
>
>  * There were some comments on OpenTaps and what it means to OFBiz. This is
> always an interesting discussion and I tried to explain the licensing
> problems with using OpenTaps. The one benefit people had about using
> OpenTaps is that it has a full CRM application that people can use from the
> start.  OfBiz is more general and requires more customization.
>
>  * SugarCRM and other similar applications are examples of very large user
> communities because the application is a complete solution.  It is difficult
> to convince people to use ofbiz because there are pieces that are not
> complete and require customization.  The ability to customize is a benefit
> for some users but a drawback for others and is a hindrance to wide spread
> adoption.
>
>  * Is it possible to break up the components more into separate installable
> modules. For example, framework versus applications.  We discussed how this
> is currently done but the feedback was to make it easier for people to pick
> and choose what components to install.
>
>  * Any plans to integrate a complete rules engine into ofbiz
>
>  * Version control for release branches. Are they plans to do more frequent
> releases?  The current download of the nightly build is misleading as user
> think it is a stable release build but it is really just the nightly build
> from the trunk.
>
>  * It was stated that OFBiz is a unique apache project as it is focused on
> business solutions where as most apache projects focus on a single technical
> problem.  How that technology is used in an application is generally
> irrelevant.  OFBiz is different in that it tries to provide a complete
> solution for businesses and users. The feedback was that in the future it
> would be nice to attract more end users to the ofbiz apache conference
> rather than technical people that implement the solution. This was agreed
> that if there were more complete applications that the user community would
> grow and all people in the community would benefit.
>
>  * Another strategy for OFBiz would be to define business best practices and
> then implement those processes into the applications. This is a difficult
> task as all businesses are unique but just as ofbiz adopted a common data
> model there most be common business practices that would benefit all
> businesses.
>
>  * Improving the integration of the seleniumXml test framework with the
> existing ofbiz test framework. Also more examples of tests using the OOTB
> ofbiz applications would be desired.
>
> The above comments are notes that I took during the round table discussion.
> They are not my own personal opinions but of those of the group.  Please
> feel free to comment on these ideas for the benefit of the community.
>
> Overall, the people attending the conference commented that they would like
> OFBiz to continue to have these each year.  They would like to see more
> users attending the conference in the future.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Brett
>
>  

[Shi Jinghai]

OFBiz already has a core system (like a dos or linux core), it needs a
Windows/GNU(web GUI), perhaps it's time to consider to introduce a new
party who is an expert on this. Please don't confuse the GUI with CSS,
it's on dialog, window, menu, list, form and etc.

Just my 2 cents,

Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.

PS: please rename the GUI in framework to another name.

在 2009-11-10二的 07:17 -0700，Brett Palmer写道：

> Here are the notes that I took during the ApacheCon 2009 User Round Table.
> The conference was a success but I believe was less attended than normal.
> I've been to about 6 ofbiz conferences and this one was the least attended
> by ofbiz users than others.  I attribute this to the current economic
> situation rather than anything else.
>
>  Interestingly, a lot of the comments during the round table were similar to
> ones that we have had in the past. The project continues to make progress
> but from outsiders it is difficult to measure as some of the new features
> takes months to see in the end product.
>
>  There were six people in attendance at the round table. A few had to leave
> early to catch planes in the afternoon.  Of those that attended the round
> table two were speakers (myself and Ruth). Three of the attendees were
> service providers trying to better understand the direction of ofbiz and one
> was a new user that was active in other Apache projects and wanted to know
> more about ofbiz.
>
>
> Here are the key comments:
>
>  * Everyone was very interested in the new project that Dave introduced a
> couple of weeks ago about a specialized application for small business. They
> wanted to know a lot more about this project and what it would include.
> There was a lot of excitement about the proposal.  I didn't have a lot of
> details to share so I told them to watch the mailing list for more details
> on the subject.
>
>  * Most common complaint. The UI for the out of the box ecommerce
> application. The general feedback was that from a technical perspective
> people like ofbiz but it was difficult to convince key business people that
> ofbiz was right for their organization because of the lacking "sizzle" in
> the default application.   Non-technical people have a hard time determining
> how difficult it is to customize the UI and in a quick review will opt for a
> better looking application because that is all they can really evaluate.
> The general thought was that the lack of a very nice front end was slowing
> the adoption for ofbiz
>
>  * Another suggestion was around content management. The ofbiz CMS is not
> fully complete with a UI and business logic. The question was asked if it
> was possible to plugin other CSM packages the the Java Content Repository
> (JCR).
>
>  * There were some comments on OpenTaps and what it means to OFBiz. This is
> always an interesting discussion and I tried to explain the licensing
> problems with using OpenTaps. The one benefit people had about using
> OpenTaps is that it has a full CRM application that people can use from the
> start.  OfBiz is more general and requires more customization.
>
>  * SugarCRM and other similar applications are examples of very large user
> communities because the application is a complete solution.  It is difficult
> to convince people to use ofbiz because there are pieces that are not
> complete and require customization.  The ability to customize is a benefit
> for some users but a drawback for others and is a hindrance to wide spread
> adoption.
>
>  * Is it possible to break up the components more into separate installable
> modules. For example, framework versus applications.  We discussed how this
> is currently done but the feedback was to make it easier for people to pick
> and choose what components to install.
>
>  * Any plans to integrate a complete rules engine into ofbiz
>
>  * Version control for release branches. Are they plans to do more frequent
> releases?  The current download of the nightly build is misleading as user
> think it is a stable release build but it is really just the nightly build
> from the trunk.
>
>  * It was stated that OFBiz is a unique apache project as it is focused on
> business solutions where as most apache projects focus on a single technical
> problem.  How that technology is used in an application is generally
> irrelevant.  OFBiz is different in that it tries to provide a complete
> solution for businesses and users. The feedback was that in the future it
> would be nice to attract more end users to the ofbiz apache conference
> rather than technical people that implement the solution. This was agreed
> that if there were more complete applications that the user community would
> grow and all people in the community would benefit.
>
>  * Another strategy for OFBiz would be to define business best practices and
> then implement those processes into the applications. This is a difficult
> task as all businesses are unique but just as ofbiz adopted a common data
> model there most be common business practices that would benefit all
> businesses.
>
>  * Improving the integration of the seleniumXml test framework with the
> existing ofbiz test framework. Also more examples of tests using the OOTB
> ofbiz applications would be desired.
>
> The above comments are notes that I took during the round table discussion.
> They are not my own personal opinions but of those of the group.  Please
> feel free to comment on these ideas for the benefit of the community.
>
> Overall, the people attending the conference commented that they would like
> OFBiz to continue to have these each year.  They would like to see more
> users attending the conference in the future.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Brett

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hello Shi:
Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by "web GUI"?
Could you give an example of another application suite that has a "web
GUI" as you suggest?
Regards,
Ruth

Shi Jinghai wrote:

> OFBiz already has a core system (like a dos or linux core), it needs a
> Windows/GNU(web GUI), perhaps it's time to consider to introduce a new
> party who is an expert on this. Please don't confuse the GUI with CSS,
> it's on dialog, window, menu, list, form and etc.
>
> Just my 2 cents,
>
> Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
>
> PS: please rename the GUI in framework to another name.
>
> 在 2009-11-10二的 07:17 -0700，Brett Palmer写�：
>  
>> Here are the notes that I took during the ApacheCon 2009 User Round Table.
>> The conference was a success but I believe was less attended than normal.
>> I've been to about 6 ofbiz conferences and this one was the least attended
>> by ofbiz users than others.  I attribute this to the current economic
>> situation rather than anything else.
>>
>>  Interestingly, a lot of the comments during the round table were similar to
>> ones that we have had in the past. The project continues to make progress
>> but from outsiders it is difficult to measure as some of the new features
>> takes months to see in the end product.
>>
>>  There were six people in attendance at the round table. A few had to leave
>> early to catch planes in the afternoon.  Of those that attended the round
>> table two were speakers (myself and Ruth). Three of the attendees were
>> service providers trying to better understand the direction of ofbiz and one
>> was a new user that was active in other Apache projects and wanted to know
>> more about ofbiz.
>>
>>
>> Here are the key comments:
>>
>>  * Everyone was very interested in the new project that Dave introduced a
>> couple of weeks ago about a specialized application for small business. They
>> wanted to know a lot more about this project and what it would include.
>> There was a lot of excitement about the proposal.  I didn't have a lot of
>> details to share so I told them to watch the mailing list for more details
>> on the subject.
>>
>>  * Most common complaint. The UI for the out of the box ecommerce
>> application. The general feedback was that from a technical perspective
>> people like ofbiz but it was difficult to convince key business people that
>> ofbiz was right for their organization because of the lacking "sizzle" in
>> the default application.   Non-technical people have a hard time determining
>> how difficult it is to customize the UI and in a quick review will opt for a
>> better looking application because that is all they can really evaluate.
>> The general thought was that the lack of a very nice front end was slowing
>> the adoption for ofbiz
>>
>>  * Another suggestion was around content management. The ofbiz CMS is not
>> fully complete with a UI and business logic. The question was asked if it
>> was possible to plugin other CSM packages the the Java Content Repository
>> (JCR).
>>
>>  * There were some comments on OpenTaps and what it means to OFBiz. This is
>> always an interesting discussion and I tried to explain the licensing
>> problems with using OpenTaps. The one benefit people had about using
>> OpenTaps is that it has a full CRM application that people can use from the
>> start.  OfBiz is more general and requires more customization.
>>
>>  * SugarCRM and other similar applications are examples of very large user
>> communities because the application is a complete solution.  It is difficult
>> to convince people to use ofbiz because there are pieces that are not
>> complete and require customization.  The ability to customize is a benefit
>> for some users but a drawback for others and is a hindrance to wide spread
>> adoption.
>>
>>  * Is it possible to break up the components more into separate installable
>> modules. For example, framework versus applications.  We discussed how this
>> is currently done but the feedback was to make it easier for people to pick
>> and choose what components to install.
>>
>>  * Any plans to integrate a complete rules engine into ofbiz
>>
>>  * Version control for release branches. Are they plans to do more frequent
>> releases?  The current download of the nightly build is misleading as user
>> think it is a stable release build but it is really just the nightly build
>> from the trunk.
>>
>>  * It was stated that OFBiz is a unique apache project as it is focused on
>> business solutions where as most apache projects focus on a single technical
>> problem.  How that technology is used in an application is generally
>> irrelevant.  OFBiz is different in that it tries to provide a complete
>> solution for businesses and users. The feedback was that in the future it
>> would be nice to attract more end users to the ofbiz apache conference
>> rather than technical people that implement the solution. This was agreed
>> that if there were more complete applications that the user community would
>> grow and all people in the community would benefit.
>>
>>  * Another strategy for OFBiz would be to define business best practices and
>> then implement those processes into the applications. This is a difficult
>> task as all businesses are unique but just as ofbiz adopted a common data
>> model there most be common business practices that would benefit all
>> businesses.
>>
>>  * Improving the integration of the seleniumXml test framework with the
>> existing ofbiz test framework. Also more examples of tests using the OOTB
>> ofbiz applications would be desired.
>>
>> The above comments are notes that I took during the round table discussion.
>> They are not my own personal opinions but of those of the group.  Please
>> feel free to comment on these ideas for the benefit of the community.
>>
>> Overall, the people attending the conference commented that they would like
>> OFBiz to continue to have these each year.  They would like to see more
>> users attending the conference in the future.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>> Brett
>>    
>
>
>  

[Shi Jinghai]

In the architectural level, JBoss Portal can be a good sample, the
concepts are portal, page, window.
http://www.jboss.org/jbossportal/
or
http://www.jboss.org/gatein

If you're interested in how a user configs his/her page, you can login
our portal:
<a href="http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%">http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%
2Fportal%2Fauth%2Fportal%2Fdefault%2FHome
Username: anon
Password: anon


In window level, OpenCms is a good example, list, dialog and etc.
http://demo.opencms.org/en/

If you're interested in how a user use it, you can login our cms
workplace:
<a href="http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Fcms.langhua.org%">http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Fcms.langhua.org%
3A80%2Fopencms705%2Fopencms%2Fsystem%2Flogin%2Findex.html
Username: anon
Password: anon

Regards,

Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.



在 2009-11-10二的 19:02 -0500，Ruth Hoffman写道：

> Hello Shi:
> Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by "web GUI"?
> Could you give an example of another application suite that has a "web
> GUI" as you suggest?
> Regards,
> Ruth
>
> Shi Jinghai wrote:
> > OFBiz already has a core system (like a dos or linux core), it needs a
> > Windows/GNU(web GUI), perhaps it's time to consider to introduce a new
> > party who is an expert on this. Please don't confuse the GUI with CSS,
> > it's on dialog, window, menu, list, form and etc.
> >
> > Just my 2 cents,
> >
> > Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
> >
> > PS: please rename the GUI in framework to another name.
> >
> > 在 2009-11-10二的 07:17 -0700，Brett Palmer写é“：
> >  
> >> Here are the notes that I took during the ApacheCon 2009 User Round Table.
> >> The conference was a success but I believe was less attended than normal.
> >> I've been to about 6 ofbiz conferences and this one was the least attended
> >> by ofbiz users than others.  I attribute this to the current economic
> >> situation rather than anything else.
> >>
> >>  Interestingly, a lot of the comments during the round table were similar to
> >> ones that we have had in the past. The project continues to make progress
> >> but from outsiders it is difficult to measure as some of the new features
> >> takes months to see in the end product.
> >>
> >>  There were six people in attendance at the round table. A few had to leave
> >> early to catch planes in the afternoon.  Of those that attended the round
> >> table two were speakers (myself and Ruth). Three of the attendees were
> >> service providers trying to better understand the direction of ofbiz and one
> >> was a new user that was active in other Apache projects and wanted to know
> >> more about ofbiz.
> >>
> >>
> >> Here are the key comments:
> >>
> >>  * Everyone was very interested in the new project that Dave introduced a
> >> couple of weeks ago about a specialized application for small business. They
> >> wanted to know a lot more about this project and what it would include.
> >> There was a lot of excitement about the proposal.  I didn't have a lot of
> >> details to share so I told them to watch the mailing list for more details
> >> on the subject.
> >>
> >>  * Most common complaint. The UI for the out of the box ecommerce
> >> application. The general feedback was that from a technical perspective
> >> people like ofbiz but it was difficult to convince key business people that
> >> ofbiz was right for their organization because of the lacking "sizzle" in
> >> the default application.   Non-technical people have a hard time determining
> >> how difficult it is to customize the UI and in a quick review will opt for a
> >> better looking application because that is all they can really evaluate.
> >> The general thought was that the lack of a very nice front end was slowing
> >> the adoption for ofbiz
> >>
> >>  * Another suggestion was around content management. The ofbiz CMS is not
> >> fully complete with a UI and business logic. The question was asked if it
> >> was possible to plugin other CSM packages the the Java Content Repository
> >> (JCR).
> >>
> >>  * There were some comments on OpenTaps and what it means to OFBiz. This is
> >> always an interesting discussion and I tried to explain the licensing
> >> problems with using OpenTaps. The one benefit people had about using
> >> OpenTaps is that it has a full CRM application that people can use from the
> >> start.  OfBiz is more general and requires more customization.
> >>
> >>  * SugarCRM and other similar applications are examples of very large user
> >> communities because the application is a complete solution.  It is difficult
> >> to convince people to use ofbiz because there are pieces that are not
> >> complete and require customization.  The ability to customize is a benefit
> >> for some users but a drawback for others and is a hindrance to wide spread
> >> adoption.
> >>
> >>  * Is it possible to break up the components more into separate installable
> >> modules. For example, framework versus applications.  We discussed how this
> >> is currently done but the feedback was to make it easier for people to pick
> >> and choose what components to install.
> >>
> >>  * Any plans to integrate a complete rules engine into ofbiz
> >>
> >>  * Version control for release branches. Are they plans to do more frequent
> >> releases?  The current download of the nightly build is misleading as user
> >> think it is a stable release build but it is really just the nightly build
> >> from the trunk.
> >>
> >>  * It was stated that OFBiz is a unique apache project as it is focused on
> >> business solutions where as most apache projects focus on a single technical
> >> problem.  How that technology is used in an application is generally
> >> irrelevant.  OFBiz is different in that it tries to provide a complete
> >> solution for businesses and users. The feedback was that in the future it
> >> would be nice to attract more end users to the ofbiz apache conference
> >> rather than technical people that implement the solution. This was agreed
> >> that if there were more complete applications that the user community would
> >> grow and all people in the community would benefit.
> >>
> >>  * Another strategy for OFBiz would be to define business best practices and
> >> then implement those processes into the applications. This is a difficult
> >> task as all businesses are unique but just as ofbiz adopted a common data
> >> model there most be common business practices that would benefit all
> >> businesses.
> >>
> >>  * Improving the integration of the seleniumXml test framework with the
> >> existing ofbiz test framework. Also more examples of tests using the OOTB
> >> ofbiz applications would be desired.
> >>
> >> The above comments are notes that I took during the round table discussion.
> >> They are not my own personal opinions but of those of the group.  Please
> >> feel free to comment on these ideas for the benefit of the community.
> >>
> >> Overall, the people attending the conference commented that they would like
> >> OFBiz to continue to have these each year.  They would like to see more
> >> users attending the conference in the future.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >>
> >> Brett
> >>    
> >
> >
> >  

[Shi Jinghai]

Forgot to say, Facebook and iGoogle are the best samples of all :).


在 2009-11-11三的 09:13 +0800，Shi Jinghai写道：

> In the architectural level, JBoss Portal can be a good sample, the
> concepts are portal, page, window.
> http://www.jboss.org/jbossportal/
> or
> http://www.jboss.org/gatein
>
> If you're interested in how a user configs his/her page, you can login
> our portal:
> <a href="http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%">http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%
> 2Fportal%2Fauth%2Fportal%2Fdefault%2FHome
> Username: anon
> Password: anon
>
>
> In window level, OpenCms is a good example, list, dialog and etc.
> http://demo.opencms.org/en/
>
> If you're interested in how a user use it, you can login our cms
> workplace:
> <a href="http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Fcms.langhua.org%">http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Fcms.langhua.org%
> 3A80%2Fopencms705%2Fopencms%2Fsystem%2Flogin%2Findex.html
> Username: anon
> Password: anon
>
> Regards,
>
> Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
>
>
>
> 在 2009-11-10二的 19:02 -0500，Ruth Hoffman写道：
> > Hello Shi:
> > Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by "web GUI"?
> > Could you give an example of another application suite that has a "web
> > GUI" as you suggest?
> > Regards,
> > Ruth
> >
> > Shi Jinghai wrote:
> > > OFBiz already has a core system (like a dos or linux core), it needs a
> > > Windows/GNU(web GUI), perhaps it's time to consider to introduce a new
> > > party who is an expert on this. Please don't confuse the GUI with CSS,
> > > it's on dialog, window, menu, list, form and etc.
> > >
> > > Just my 2 cents,
> > >
> > > Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
> > >
> > > PS: please rename the GUI in framework to another name.
> > >
> > > 在 2009-11-10二的 07:17 -0700，Brett Palmer写é“：
> > >  
> > >> Here are the notes that I took during the ApacheCon 2009 User Round Table.
> > >> The conference was a success but I believe was less attended than normal.
> > >> I've been to about 6 ofbiz conferences and this one was the least attended
> > >> by ofbiz users than others.  I attribute this to the current economic
> > >> situation rather than anything else.
> > >>
> > >>  Interestingly, a lot of the comments during the round table were similar to
> > >> ones that we have had in the past. The project continues to make progress
> > >> but from outsiders it is difficult to measure as some of the new features
> > >> takes months to see in the end product.
> > >>
> > >>  There were six people in attendance at the round table. A few had to leave
> > >> early to catch planes in the afternoon.  Of those that attended the round
> > >> table two were speakers (myself and Ruth). Three of the attendees were
> > >> service providers trying to better understand the direction of ofbiz and one
> > >> was a new user that was active in other Apache projects and wanted to know
> > >> more about ofbiz.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Here are the key comments:
> > >>
> > >>  * Everyone was very interested in the new project that Dave introduced a
> > >> couple of weeks ago about a specialized application for small business. They
> > >> wanted to know a lot more about this project and what it would include.
> > >> There was a lot of excitement about the proposal.  I didn't have a lot of
> > >> details to share so I told them to watch the mailing list for more details
> > >> on the subject.
> > >>
> > >>  * Most common complaint. The UI for the out of the box ecommerce
> > >> application. The general feedback was that from a technical perspective
> > >> people like ofbiz but it was difficult to convince key business people that
> > >> ofbiz was right for their organization because of the lacking "sizzle" in
> > >> the default application.   Non-technical people have a hard time determining
> > >> how difficult it is to customize the UI and in a quick review will opt for a
> > >> better looking application because that is all they can really evaluate.
> > >> The general thought was that the lack of a very nice front end was slowing
> > >> the adoption for ofbiz
> > >>
> > >>  * Another suggestion was around content management. The ofbiz CMS is not
> > >> fully complete with a UI and business logic. The question was asked if it
> > >> was possible to plugin other CSM packages the the Java Content Repository
> > >> (JCR).
> > >>
> > >>  * There were some comments on OpenTaps and what it means to OFBiz. This is
> > >> always an interesting discussion and I tried to explain the licensing
> > >> problems with using OpenTaps. The one benefit people had about using
> > >> OpenTaps is that it has a full CRM application that people can use from the
> > >> start.  OfBiz is more general and requires more customization.
> > >>
> > >>  * SugarCRM and other similar applications are examples of very large user
> > >> communities because the application is a complete solution.  It is difficult
> > >> to convince people to use ofbiz because there are pieces that are not
> > >> complete and require customization.  The ability to customize is a benefit
> > >> for some users but a drawback for others and is a hindrance to wide spread
> > >> adoption.
> > >>
> > >>  * Is it possible to break up the components more into separate installable
> > >> modules. For example, framework versus applications.  We discussed how this
> > >> is currently done but the feedback was to make it easier for people to pick
> > >> and choose what components to install.
> > >>
> > >>  * Any plans to integrate a complete rules engine into ofbiz
> > >>
> > >>  * Version control for release branches. Are they plans to do more frequent
> > >> releases?  The current download of the nightly build is misleading as user
> > >> think it is a stable release build but it is really just the nightly build
> > >> from the trunk.
> > >>
> > >>  * It was stated that OFBiz is a unique apache project as it is focused on
> > >> business solutions where as most apache projects focus on a single technical
> > >> problem.  How that technology is used in an application is generally
> > >> irrelevant.  OFBiz is different in that it tries to provide a complete
> > >> solution for businesses and users. The feedback was that in the future it
> > >> would be nice to attract more end users to the ofbiz apache conference
> > >> rather than technical people that implement the solution. This was agreed
> > >> that if there were more complete applications that the user community would
> > >> grow and all people in the community would benefit.
> > >>
> > >>  * Another strategy for OFBiz would be to define business best practices and
> > >> then implement those processes into the applications. This is a difficult
> > >> task as all businesses are unique but just as ofbiz adopted a common data
> > >> model there most be common business practices that would benefit all
> > >> businesses.
> > >>
> > >>  * Improving the integration of the seleniumXml test framework with the
> > >> existing ofbiz test framework. Also more examples of tests using the OOTB
> > >> ofbiz applications would be desired.
> > >>
> > >> The above comments are notes that I took during the round table discussion.
> > >> They are not my own personal opinions but of those of the group.  Please
> > >> feel free to comment on these ideas for the benefit of the community.
> > >>
> > >> Overall, the people attending the conference commented that they would like
> > >> OFBiz to continue to have these each year.  They would like to see more
> > >> users attending the conference in the future.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Brett
> > >>    
> > >
> > >
> > >  
>

[Jacopo Cappellato-4]

On Nov 11, 2009, at 12:48 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:

> perhaps it's time to consider to introduce a new
> party who is an expert on this

The great thing about OFBiz is that it is 100% driven by its  
community: people, companies come and go, OFbiz remains and grows. It  
doesn't make sense to say something like this because no one is  
preventing people on investing in the ui.

Jacopo

[Jacopo Cappellato-4]

On Nov 11, 2009, at 2:18 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:

> Forgot to say, Facebook and iGoogle are the best samples of all :).
>

Hmmmm... the ui of FB and Google are example of ui that are richer  
than the one of OFBiz, but I would not say that they are good examples  
of good ui.
Often what is "nice" is not really useful, especially when the user  
performs repetitive tasks.
For example: sometimes it is annoying to move your hands from the  
keyboard to the mouse.

Some general enhancements I would like to see in OFBiz:
* better error/success messages
* better handling of keyboard tab to move from one field to another
* more and better multi row submit screens
* more informative form fields (e.g. showing descriptions instead of  
just ids)
* enhancing field interactions (the value of one field can change/
hide/ etc other elements/data in the screen)

BTW, I think it would be much better to focus on specific use cases/
workflows/system interactions, and suggest enhancements; for example:
1) go to order manager
2) select "order entry"
3) select a customer; SUGGESTION: here I would like to get a better  
selection mechanism, with....
4) after the selection of a customer, etc...

In this way it will be easier to focus on specific solutions and  
improve, working with the community, key processes in the system.

Cheers,

Jacopo

>
> 在 2009-11-11三的 09:13 +0800，Shi Jinghai写道：
>> In the architectural level, JBoss Portal can be a good sample, the
>> concepts are portal, page, window.
>> http://www.jboss.org/jbossportal/
>> or
>> http://www.jboss.org/gatein
>>
>> If you're interested in how a user configs his/her page, you can  
>> login
>> our portal:
>> <a href="http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%">http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%
>> 2Fportal%2Fauth%2Fportal%2Fdefault%2FHome
>> Username: anon
>> Password: anon
>>
>>
>> In window level, OpenCms is a good example, list, dialog and etc.
>> http://demo.opencms.org/en/
>>
>> If you're interested in how a user use it, you can login our cms
>> workplace:
>> http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F 
>> %2Fcms.langhua.org%
>> 3A80%2Fopencms705%2Fopencms%2Fsystem%2Flogin%2Findex.html
>> Username: anon
>> Password: anon
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
>>
>>
>>
>> 在 2009-11-10二的 19:02 -0500，Ruth Hoffman写道：
>>> Hello Shi:
>>> Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by "web  
>>> GUI"?
>>> Could you give an example of another application suite that has a  
>>> "web
>>> GUI" as you suggest?
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>>
>>> Shi Jinghai wrote:
>>>> OFBiz already has a core system (like a dos or linux core), it  
>>>> needs a
>>>> Windows/GNU(web GUI), perhaps it's time to consider to introduce  
>>>> a new
>>>> party who is an expert on this. Please don't confuse the GUI with  
>>>> CSS,
>>>> it's on dialog, window, menu, list, form and etc.
>>>>
>>>> Just my 2 cents,
>>>>
>>>> Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
>>>>
>>>> PS: please rename the GUI in framework to another name.
>>>>
>>>> 在 2009-11-10二的 07:17 -0700，Brett  
>>>> Palmer写é“：
>>>>
>>>>> Here are the notes that I took during the ApacheCon 2009 User  
>>>>> Round Table.
>>>>> The conference was a success but I believe was less attended  
>>>>> than normal.
>>>>> I've been to about 6 ofbiz conferences and this one was the  
>>>>> least attended
>>>>> by ofbiz users than others.  I attribute this to the current  
>>>>> economic
>>>>> situation rather than anything else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interestingly, a lot of the comments during the round table were  
>>>>> similar to
>>>>> ones that we have had in the past. The project continues to make  
>>>>> progress
>>>>> but from outsiders it is difficult to measure as some of the new  
>>>>> features
>>>>> takes months to see in the end product.
>>>>>
>>>>> There were six people in attendance at the round table. A few  
>>>>> had to leave
>>>>> early to catch planes in the afternoon.  Of those that attended  
>>>>> the round
>>>>> table two were speakers (myself and Ruth). Three of the  
>>>>> attendees were
>>>>> service providers trying to better understand the direction of  
>>>>> ofbiz and one
>>>>> was a new user that was active in other Apache projects and  
>>>>> wanted to know
>>>>> more about ofbiz.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are the key comments:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Everyone was very interested in the new project that Dave  
>>>>> introduced a
>>>>> couple of weeks ago about a specialized application for small  
>>>>> business. They
>>>>> wanted to know a lot more about this project and what it would  
>>>>> include.
>>>>> There was a lot of excitement about the proposal.  I didn't have  
>>>>> a lot of
>>>>> details to share so I told them to watch the mailing list for  
>>>>> more details
>>>>> on the subject.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Most common complaint. The UI for the out of the box ecommerce
>>>>> application. The general feedback was that from a technical  
>>>>> perspective
>>>>> people like ofbiz but it was difficult to convince key business  
>>>>> people that
>>>>> ofbiz was right for their organization because of the lacking  
>>>>> "sizzle" in
>>>>> the default application.   Non-technical people have a hard time  
>>>>> determining
>>>>> how difficult it is to customize the UI and in a quick review  
>>>>> will opt for a
>>>>> better looking application because that is all they can really  
>>>>> evaluate.
>>>>> The general thought was that the lack of a very nice front end  
>>>>> was slowing
>>>>> the adoption for ofbiz
>>>>>
>>>>> * Another suggestion was around content management. The ofbiz  
>>>>> CMS is not
>>>>> fully complete with a UI and business logic. The question was  
>>>>> asked if it
>>>>> was possible to plugin other CSM packages the the Java Content  
>>>>> Repository
>>>>> (JCR).
>>>>>
>>>>> * There were some comments on OpenTaps and what it means to  
>>>>> OFBiz. This is
>>>>> always an interesting discussion and I tried to explain the  
>>>>> licensing
>>>>> problems with using OpenTaps. The one benefit people had about  
>>>>> using
>>>>> OpenTaps is that it has a full CRM application that people can  
>>>>> use from the
>>>>> start.  OfBiz is more general and requires more customization.
>>>>>
>>>>> * SugarCRM and other similar applications are examples of very  
>>>>> large user
>>>>> communities because the application is a complete solution.  It  
>>>>> is difficult
>>>>> to convince people to use ofbiz because there are pieces that  
>>>>> are not
>>>>> complete and require customization.  The ability to customize is  
>>>>> a benefit
>>>>> for some users but a drawback for others and is a hindrance to  
>>>>> wide spread
>>>>> adoption.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Is it possible to break up the components more into separate  
>>>>> installable
>>>>> modules. For example, framework versus applications.  We  
>>>>> discussed how this
>>>>> is currently done but the feedback was to make it easier for  
>>>>> people to pick
>>>>> and choose what components to install.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Any plans to integrate a complete rules engine into ofbiz
>>>>>
>>>>> * Version control for release branches. Are they plans to do  
>>>>> more frequent
>>>>> releases?  The current download of the nightly build is  
>>>>> misleading as user
>>>>> think it is a stable release build but it is really just the  
>>>>> nightly build
>>>>> from the trunk.
>>>>>
>>>>> * It was stated that OFBiz is a unique apache project as it is  
>>>>> focused on
>>>>> business solutions where as most apache projects focus on a  
>>>>> single technical
>>>>> problem.  How that technology is used in an application is  
>>>>> generally
>>>>> irrelevant.  OFBiz is different in that it tries to provide a  
>>>>> complete
>>>>> solution for businesses and users. The feedback was that in the  
>>>>> future it
>>>>> would be nice to attract more end users to the ofbiz apache  
>>>>> conference
>>>>> rather than technical people that implement the solution. This  
>>>>> was agreed
>>>>> that if there were more complete applications that the user  
>>>>> community would
>>>>> grow and all people in the community would benefit.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Another strategy for OFBiz would be to define business best  
>>>>> practices and
>>>>> then implement those processes into the applications. This is a  
>>>>> difficult
>>>>> task as all businesses are unique but just as ofbiz adopted a  
>>>>> common data
>>>>> model there most be common business practices that would benefit  
>>>>> all
>>>>> businesses.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Improving the integration of the seleniumXml test framework  
>>>>> with the
>>>>> existing ofbiz test framework. Also more examples of tests using  
>>>>> the OOTB
>>>>> ofbiz applications would be desired.
>>>>>
>>>>> The above comments are notes that I took during the round table  
>>>>> discussion.
>>>>> They are not my own personal opinions but of those of the  
>>>>> group.  Please
>>>>> feel free to comment on these ideas for the benefit of the  
>>>>> community.
>>>>>
>>>>> Overall, the people attending the conference commented that they  
>>>>> would like
>>>>> OFBiz to continue to have these each year.  They would like to  
>>>>> see more
>>>>> users attending the conference in the future.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Brett
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

There is even a page for that in wiki
http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/New+Features+Roadmap+-+Living+Document#NewFeaturesRoadmap-LivingDocument-UI(UserInterface)enhancements

Jacques

From: "Jacopo Cappellato" <[hidden email]>

>
> On Nov 11, 2009, at 2:18 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:
>
>> Forgot to say, Facebook and iGoogle are the best samples of all :).
>>
>
> Hmmmm... the ui of FB and Google are example of ui that are richer  than the one of OFBiz, but I would not say that they are good
> examples  of good ui.
> Often what is "nice" is not really useful, especially when the user  performs repetitive tasks.
> For example: sometimes it is annoying to move your hands from the  keyboard to the mouse.
>
> Some general enhancements I would like to see in OFBiz:
> * better error/success messages
> * better handling of keyboard tab to move from one field to another
> * more and better multi row submit screens
> * more informative form fields (e.g. showing descriptions instead of  just ids)
> * enhancing field interactions (the value of one field can change/ hide/ etc other elements/data in the screen)
>
> BTW, I think it would be much better to focus on specific use cases/ workflows/system interactions, and suggest enhancements; for
> example:
> 1) go to order manager
> 2) select "order entry"
> 3) select a customer; SUGGESTION: here I would like to get a better  selection mechanism, with....
> 4) after the selection of a customer, etc...
>
> In this way it will be easier to focus on specific solutions and  improve, working with the community, key processes in the
> system.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jacopo
>
>
>>
>> 在 2009-11-11三的 09:13 +0800，Shi Jinghai写道：
>>> In the architectural level, JBoss Portal can be a good sample, the
>>> concepts are portal, page, window.
>>> http://www.jboss.org/jbossportal/
>>> or
>>> http://www.jboss.org/gatein
>>>
>>> If you're interested in how a user configs his/her page, you can  login
>>> our portal:
>>> <a href="http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%">http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%
>>> 2Fportal%2Fauth%2Fportal%2Fdefault%2FHome
>>> Username: anon
>>> Password: anon
>>>
>>>
>>> In window level, OpenCms is a good example, list, dialog and etc.
>>> http://demo.opencms.org/en/
>>>
>>> If you're interested in how a user use it, you can login our cms
>>> workplace:
>>> http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F %2Fcms.langhua.org%
>>> 3A80%2Fopencms705%2Fopencms%2Fsystem%2Flogin%2Findex.html
>>> Username: anon
>>> Password: anon
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 在 2009-11-10二的 19:02 -0500，Ruth Hoffman写道：
>>>> Hello Shi:
>>>> Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by "web  GUI"?
>>>> Could you give an example of another application suite that has a  "web
>>>> GUI" as you suggest?
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> Shi Jinghai wrote:
>>>>> OFBiz already has a core system (like a dos or linux core), it  needs a
>>>>> Windows/GNU(web GUI), perhaps it's time to consider to introduce  a new
>>>>> party who is an expert on this. Please don't confuse the GUI with  CSS,
>>>>> it's on dialog, window, menu, list, form and etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my 2 cents,
>>>>>
>>>>> Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: please rename the GUI in framework to another name.
>>>>>
>>>>> 在 2009-11-10二的 07:17 -0700，Brett  Palmer写é“：
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here are the notes that I took during the ApacheCon 2009 User  Round Table.
>>>>>> The conference was a success but I believe was less attended  than normal.
>>>>>> I've been to about 6 ofbiz conferences and this one was the  least attended
>>>>>> by ofbiz users than others.  I attribute this to the current  economic
>>>>>> situation rather than anything else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interestingly, a lot of the comments during the round table were  similar to
>>>>>> ones that we have had in the past. The project continues to make  progress
>>>>>> but from outsiders it is difficult to measure as some of the new  features
>>>>>> takes months to see in the end product.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There were six people in attendance at the round table. A few  had to leave
>>>>>> early to catch planes in the afternoon.  Of those that attended  the round
>>>>>> table two were speakers (myself and Ruth). Three of the  attendees were
>>>>>> service providers trying to better understand the direction of  ofbiz and one
>>>>>> was a new user that was active in other Apache projects and  wanted to know
>>>>>> more about ofbiz.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here are the key comments:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Everyone was very interested in the new project that Dave  introduced a
>>>>>> couple of weeks ago about a specialized application for small  business. They
>>>>>> wanted to know a lot more about this project and what it would  include.
>>>>>> There was a lot of excitement about the proposal.  I didn't have  a lot of
>>>>>> details to share so I told them to watch the mailing list for  more details
>>>>>> on the subject.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Most common complaint. The UI for the out of the box ecommerce
>>>>>> application. The general feedback was that from a technical  perspective
>>>>>> people like ofbiz but it was difficult to convince key business  people that
>>>>>> ofbiz was right for their organization because of the lacking  "sizzle" in
>>>>>> the default application.   Non-technical people have a hard time  determining
>>>>>> how difficult it is to customize the UI and in a quick review  will opt for a
>>>>>> better looking application because that is all they can really  evaluate.
>>>>>> The general thought was that the lack of a very nice front end  was slowing
>>>>>> the adoption for ofbiz
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Another suggestion was around content management. The ofbiz  CMS is not
>>>>>> fully complete with a UI and business logic. The question was  asked if it
>>>>>> was possible to plugin other CSM packages the the Java Content  Repository
>>>>>> (JCR).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * There were some comments on OpenTaps and what it means to  OFBiz. This is
>>>>>> always an interesting discussion and I tried to explain the  licensing
>>>>>> problems with using OpenTaps. The one benefit people had about  using
>>>>>> OpenTaps is that it has a full CRM application that people can  use from the
>>>>>> start.  OfBiz is more general and requires more customization.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * SugarCRM and other similar applications are examples of very  large user
>>>>>> communities because the application is a complete solution.  It  is difficult
>>>>>> to convince people to use ofbiz because there are pieces that  are not
>>>>>> complete and require customization.  The ability to customize is  a benefit
>>>>>> for some users but a drawback for others and is a hindrance to  wide spread
>>>>>> adoption.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Is it possible to break up the components more into separate  installable
>>>>>> modules. For example, framework versus applications.  We  discussed how this
>>>>>> is currently done but the feedback was to make it easier for  people to pick
>>>>>> and choose what components to install.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Any plans to integrate a complete rules engine into ofbiz
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Version control for release branches. Are they plans to do  more frequent
>>>>>> releases?  The current download of the nightly build is  misleading as user
>>>>>> think it is a stable release build but it is really just the  nightly build
>>>>>> from the trunk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * It was stated that OFBiz is a unique apache project as it is  focused on
>>>>>> business solutions where as most apache projects focus on a  single technical
>>>>>> problem.  How that technology is used in an application is  generally
>>>>>> irrelevant.  OFBiz is different in that it tries to provide a  complete
>>>>>> solution for businesses and users. The feedback was that in the  future it
>>>>>> would be nice to attract more end users to the ofbiz apache  conference
>>>>>> rather than technical people that implement the solution. This  was agreed
>>>>>> that if there were more complete applications that the user  community would
>>>>>> grow and all people in the community would benefit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Another strategy for OFBiz would be to define business best  practices and
>>>>>> then implement those processes into the applications. This is a  difficult
>>>>>> task as all businesses are unique but just as ofbiz adopted a  common data
>>>>>> model there most be common business practices that would benefit  all
>>>>>> businesses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Improving the integration of the seleniumXml test framework  with the
>>>>>> existing ofbiz test framework. Also more examples of tests using  the OOTB
>>>>>> ofbiz applications would be desired.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The above comments are notes that I took during the round table  discussion.
>>>>>> They are not my own personal opinions but of those of the  group.  Please
>>>>>> feel free to comment on these ideas for the benefit of the  community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Overall, the people attending the conference commented that they  would like
>>>>>> OFBiz to continue to have these each year.  They would like to  see more
>>>>>> users attending the conference in the future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brett
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

[David E. Jones-2]

It's a good point Jacopo... FaceBook and Google are not example of  
good UIs for complicated things, they are just simple applications  
where the UI is hard to mess up.

IMO the usefulness of an application is all about applicability to  
requirements, or end-user needs. If it is close to those needs, great!  
If it is not, then it is painful to use, if helpful at all. So, step  
one is identifying user needs (aka requirements). Without those even  
the best design will be hit-and-miss based on which user's  
requirements it happens to meet.

-David


On Nov 11, 2009, at 2:06 AM, Jacopo Cappellato wrote:

>
> On Nov 11, 2009, at 2:18 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:
>
>> Forgot to say, Facebook and iGoogle are the best samples of all :).
>>
>
> Hmmmm... the ui of FB and Google are example of ui that are richer  
> than the one of OFBiz, but I would not say that they are good  
> examples of good ui.
> Often what is "nice" is not really useful, especially when the user  
> performs repetitive tasks.
> For example: sometimes it is annoying to move your hands from the  
> keyboard to the mouse.
>
> Some general enhancements I would like to see in OFBiz:
> * better error/success messages
> * better handling of keyboard tab to move from one field to another
> * more and better multi row submit screens
> * more informative form fields (e.g. showing descriptions instead of  
> just ids)
> * enhancing field interactions (the value of one field can change/
> hide/ etc other elements/data in the screen)
>
> BTW, I think it would be much better to focus on specific use cases/
> workflows/system interactions, and suggest enhancements; for example:
> 1) go to order manager
> 2) select "order entry"
> 3) select a customer; SUGGESTION: here I would like to get a better  
> selection mechanism, with....
> 4) after the selection of a customer, etc...
>
> In this way it will be easier to focus on specific solutions and  
> improve, working with the community, key processes in the system.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jacopo
>
>
>>
>> 在 2009-11-11三的 09:13 +0800，Shi Jinghai写道：
>>> In the architectural level, JBoss Portal can be a good sample, the
>>> concepts are portal, page, window.
>>> http://www.jboss.org/jbossportal/
>>> or
>>> http://www.jboss.org/gatein
>>>
>>> If you're interested in how a user configs his/her page, you can  
>>> login
>>> our portal:
>>> <a href="http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%">http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%
>>> 2Fportal%2Fauth%2Fportal%2Fdefault%2FHome
>>> Username: anon
>>> Password: anon
>>>
>>>
>>> In window level, OpenCms is a good example, list, dialog and etc.
>>> http://demo.opencms.org/en/
>>>
>>> If you're interested in how a user use it, you can login our cms
>>> workplace:
>>> <a href="http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Fcms.langhua.org%">http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Fcms.langhua.org%
>>> 3A80%2Fopencms705%2Fopencms%2Fsystem%2Flogin%2Findex.html
>>> Username: anon
>>> Password: anon
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 在 2009-11-10二的 19:02 -0500，Ruth Hoffman写道：
>>>> Hello Shi:
>>>> Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by "web  
>>>> GUI"?
>>>> Could you give an example of another application suite that has a  
>>>> "web
>>>> GUI" as you suggest?
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> Shi Jinghai wrote:
>>>>> OFBiz already has a core system (like a dos or linux core), it  
>>>>> needs a
>>>>> Windows/GNU(web GUI), perhaps it's time to consider to introduce  
>>>>> a new
>>>>> party who is an expert on this. Please don't confuse the GUI  
>>>>> with CSS,
>>>>> it's on dialog, window, menu, list, form and etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my 2 cents,
>>>>>
>>>>> Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: please rename the GUI in framework to another name.
>>>>>
>>>>> 在 2009-11-10二的 07:17 -0700，Brett  
>>>>> Palmer写é“：
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here are the notes that I took during the ApacheCon 2009 User  
>>>>>> Round Table.
>>>>>> The conference was a success but I believe was less attended  
>>>>>> than normal.
>>>>>> I've been to about 6 ofbiz conferences and this one was the  
>>>>>> least attended
>>>>>> by ofbiz users than others.  I attribute this to the current  
>>>>>> economic
>>>>>> situation rather than anything else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interestingly, a lot of the comments during the round table  
>>>>>> were similar to
>>>>>> ones that we have had in the past. The project continues to  
>>>>>> make progress
>>>>>> but from outsiders it is difficult to measure as some of the  
>>>>>> new features
>>>>>> takes months to see in the end product.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There were six people in attendance at the round table. A few  
>>>>>> had to leave
>>>>>> early to catch planes in the afternoon.  Of those that attended  
>>>>>> the round
>>>>>> table two were speakers (myself and Ruth). Three of the  
>>>>>> attendees were
>>>>>> service providers trying to better understand the direction of  
>>>>>> ofbiz and one
>>>>>> was a new user that was active in other Apache projects and  
>>>>>> wanted to know
>>>>>> more about ofbiz.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here are the key comments:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Everyone was very interested in the new project that Dave  
>>>>>> introduced a
>>>>>> couple of weeks ago about a specialized application for small  
>>>>>> business. They
>>>>>> wanted to know a lot more about this project and what it would  
>>>>>> include.
>>>>>> There was a lot of excitement about the proposal.  I didn't  
>>>>>> have a lot of
>>>>>> details to share so I told them to watch the mailing list for  
>>>>>> more details
>>>>>> on the subject.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Most common complaint. The UI for the out of the box ecommerce
>>>>>> application. The general feedback was that from a technical  
>>>>>> perspective
>>>>>> people like ofbiz but it was difficult to convince key business  
>>>>>> people that
>>>>>> ofbiz was right for their organization because of the lacking  
>>>>>> "sizzle" in
>>>>>> the default application.   Non-technical people have a hard  
>>>>>> time determining
>>>>>> how difficult it is to customize the UI and in a quick review  
>>>>>> will opt for a
>>>>>> better looking application because that is all they can really  
>>>>>> evaluate.
>>>>>> The general thought was that the lack of a very nice front end  
>>>>>> was slowing
>>>>>> the adoption for ofbiz
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Another suggestion was around content management. The ofbiz  
>>>>>> CMS is not
>>>>>> fully complete with a UI and business logic. The question was  
>>>>>> asked if it
>>>>>> was possible to plugin other CSM packages the the Java Content  
>>>>>> Repository
>>>>>> (JCR).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * There were some comments on OpenTaps and what it means to  
>>>>>> OFBiz. This is
>>>>>> always an interesting discussion and I tried to explain the  
>>>>>> licensing
>>>>>> problems with using OpenTaps. The one benefit people had about  
>>>>>> using
>>>>>> OpenTaps is that it has a full CRM application that people can  
>>>>>> use from the
>>>>>> start.  OfBiz is more general and requires more customization.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * SugarCRM and other similar applications are examples of very  
>>>>>> large user
>>>>>> communities because the application is a complete solution.  It  
>>>>>> is difficult
>>>>>> to convince people to use ofbiz because there are pieces that  
>>>>>> are not
>>>>>> complete and require customization.  The ability to customize  
>>>>>> is a benefit
>>>>>> for some users but a drawback for others and is a hindrance to  
>>>>>> wide spread
>>>>>> adoption.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Is it possible to break up the components more into separate  
>>>>>> installable
>>>>>> modules. For example, framework versus applications.  We  
>>>>>> discussed how this
>>>>>> is currently done but the feedback was to make it easier for  
>>>>>> people to pick
>>>>>> and choose what components to install.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Any plans to integrate a complete rules engine into ofbiz
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Version control for release branches. Are they plans to do  
>>>>>> more frequent
>>>>>> releases?  The current download of the nightly build is  
>>>>>> misleading as user
>>>>>> think it is a stable release build but it is really just the  
>>>>>> nightly build
>>>>>> from the trunk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * It was stated that OFBiz is a unique apache project as it is  
>>>>>> focused on
>>>>>> business solutions where as most apache projects focus on a  
>>>>>> single technical
>>>>>> problem.  How that technology is used in an application is  
>>>>>> generally
>>>>>> irrelevant.  OFBiz is different in that it tries to provide a  
>>>>>> complete
>>>>>> solution for businesses and users. The feedback was that in the  
>>>>>> future it
>>>>>> would be nice to attract more end users to the ofbiz apache  
>>>>>> conference
>>>>>> rather than technical people that implement the solution. This  
>>>>>> was agreed
>>>>>> that if there were more complete applications that the user  
>>>>>> community would
>>>>>> grow and all people in the community would benefit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Another strategy for OFBiz would be to define business best  
>>>>>> practices and
>>>>>> then implement those processes into the applications. This is a  
>>>>>> difficult
>>>>>> task as all businesses are unique but just as ofbiz adopted a  
>>>>>> common data
>>>>>> model there most be common business practices that would  
>>>>>> benefit all
>>>>>> businesses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Improving the integration of the seleniumXml test framework  
>>>>>> with the
>>>>>> existing ofbiz test framework. Also more examples of tests  
>>>>>> using the OOTB
>>>>>> ofbiz applications would be desired.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The above comments are notes that I took during the round table  
>>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>> They are not my own personal opinions but of those of the  
>>>>>> group.  Please
>>>>>> feel free to comment on these ideas for the benefit of the  
>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Overall, the people attending the conference commented that  
>>>>>> they would like
>>>>>> OFBiz to continue to have these each year.  They would like to  
>>>>>> see more
>>>>>> users attending the conference in the future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brett
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>

[jonatan soto]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I am just starting with Ofbiz, but I understand
that freemaker is just a template language like velocity so that means it is
possible to enhance the UI using almost whatever you want, even embedded
flash. I'm wondering if I could integrate OpenLaszlo or Adobe Flex 3, sorry
if it sounds stupid...

So under my limited knowledge, I think the Ofbiz UI is as it should be,
because it's a generic opensource ERP platform and it should include the
flexibility to integrate them but not implement them from scratch.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 10:06 PM, David E Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> It's a good point Jacopo... FaceBook and Google are not example of good UIs
> for complicated things, they are just simple applications where the UI is
> hard to mess up.
>
> IMO the usefulness of an application is all about applicability to
> requirements, or end-user needs. If it is close to those needs, great! If it
> is not, then it is painful to use, if helpful at all. So, step one is
> identifying user needs (aka requirements). Without those even the best
> design will be hit-and-miss based on which user's requirements it happens to
> meet.
>
> -David
>
>
>
> On Nov 11, 2009, at 2:06 AM, Jacopo Cappellato wrote:
>
>
>> On Nov 11, 2009, at 2:18 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:
>>
>>  Forgot to say, Facebook and iGoogle are the best samples of all :).
>>>
>>>
>> Hmmmm... the ui of FB and Google are example of ui that are richer than
>> the one of OFBiz, but I would not say that they are good examples of good
>> ui.
>> Often what is "nice" is not really useful, especially when the user
>> performs repetitive tasks.
>> For example: sometimes it is annoying to move your hands from the keyboard
>> to the mouse.
>>
>> Some general enhancements I would like to see in OFBiz:
>> * better error/success messages
>> * better handling of keyboard tab to move from one field to another
>> * more and better multi row submit screens
>> * more informative form fields (e.g. showing descriptions instead of just
>> ids)
>> * enhancing field interactions (the value of one field can change/hide/
>> etc other elements/data in the screen)
>>
>> BTW, I think it would be much better to focus on specific use
>> cases/workflows/system interactions, and suggest enhancements; for example:
>> 1) go to order manager
>> 2) select "order entry"
>> 3) select a customer; SUGGESTION: here I would like to get a better
>> selection mechanism, with....
>> 4) after the selection of a customer, etc...
>>
>> In this way it will be easier to focus on specific solutions and improve,
>> working with the community, key processes in the system.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jacopo
>>
>>
>>
>>> 在 2009-11-11三的 09:13 +0800，Shi Jinghai写道：
>>>
>>>> In the architectural level, JBoss Portal can be a good sample, the
>>>> concepts are portal, page, window.
>>>> http://www.jboss.org/jbossportal/
>>>> or
>>>> http://www.jboss.org/gatein
>>>>
>>>> If you're interested in how a user configs his/her page, you can login
>>>> our portal:
>>>> <a href="http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%">http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%
>>>> 2Fportal%2Fauth%2Fportal%2Fdefault%2FHome
>>>> Username: anon
>>>> Password: anon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In window level, OpenCms is a good example, list, dialog and etc.
>>>> http://demo.opencms.org/en/
>>>>
>>>> If you're interested in how a user use it, you can login our cms
>>>> workplace:
>>>> <a href="http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Fcms.langhua.org%">http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Fcms.langhua.org%
>>>> 3A80%2Fopencms705%2Fopencms%2Fsystem%2Flogin%2Findex.html
>>>> Username: anon
>>>> Password: anon
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 在 2009-11-10二的 19:02 -0500，Ruth Hoffman写道：
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Shi:
>>>>> Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by "web GUI"?
>>>>> Could you give an example of another application suite that has a "web
>>>>> GUI" as you suggest?
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> Shi Jinghai wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> OFBiz already has a core system (like a dos or linux core), it needs a
>>>>>> Windows/GNU(web GUI), perhaps it's time to consider to introduce a new
>>>>>> party who is an expert on this. Please don't confuse the GUI with CSS,
>>>>>> it's on dialog, window, menu, list, form and etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just my 2 cents,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PS: please rename the GUI in framework to another name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 在 2009-11-10二的 07:17 -0700，Brett Palmer写é“：
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Here are the notes that I took during the ApacheCon 2009 User Round
>>>>>>> Table.
>>>>>>> The conference was a success but I believe was less attended than
>>>>>>> normal.
>>>>>>> I've been to about 6 ofbiz conferences and this one was the least
>>>>>>> attended
>>>>>>> by ofbiz users than others.  I attribute this to the current economic
>>>>>>> situation rather than anything else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interestingly, a lot of the comments during the round table were
>>>>>>> similar to
>>>>>>> ones that we have had in the past. The project continues to make
>>>>>>> progress
>>>>>>> but from outsiders it is difficult to measure as some of the new
>>>>>>> features
>>>>>>> takes months to see in the end product.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There were six people in attendance at the round table. A few had to
>>>>>>> leave
>>>>>>> early to catch planes in the afternoon.  Of those that attended the
>>>>>>> round
>>>>>>> table two were speakers (myself and Ruth). Three of the attendees
>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>> service providers trying to better understand the direction of ofbiz
>>>>>>> and one
>>>>>>> was a new user that was active in other Apache projects and wanted to
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> more about ofbiz.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here are the key comments:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Everyone was very interested in the new project that Dave
>>>>>>> introduced a
>>>>>>> couple of weeks ago about a specialized application for small
>>>>>>> business. They
>>>>>>> wanted to know a lot more about this project and what it would
>>>>>>> include.
>>>>>>> There was a lot of excitement about the proposal.  I didn't have a
>>>>>>> lot of
>>>>>>> details to share so I told them to watch the mailing list for more
>>>>>>> details
>>>>>>> on the subject.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Most common complaint. The UI for the out of the box ecommerce
>>>>>>> application. The general feedback was that from a technical
>>>>>>> perspective
>>>>>>> people like ofbiz but it was difficult to convince key business
>>>>>>> people that
>>>>>>> ofbiz was right for their organization because of the lacking
>>>>>>> "sizzle" in
>>>>>>> the default application.   Non-technical people have a hard time
>>>>>>> determining
>>>>>>> how difficult it is to customize the UI and in a quick review will
>>>>>>> opt for a
>>>>>>> better looking application because that is all they can really
>>>>>>> evaluate.
>>>>>>> The general thought was that the lack of a very nice front end was
>>>>>>> slowing
>>>>>>> the adoption for ofbiz
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Another suggestion was around content management. The ofbiz CMS is
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> fully complete with a UI and business logic. The question was asked
>>>>>>> if it
>>>>>>> was possible to plugin other CSM packages the the Java Content
>>>>>>> Repository
>>>>>>> (JCR).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * There were some comments on OpenTaps and what it means to OFBiz.
>>>>>>> This is
>>>>>>> always an interesting discussion and I tried to explain the licensing
>>>>>>> problems with using OpenTaps. The one benefit people had about using
>>>>>>> OpenTaps is that it has a full CRM application that people can use
>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>> start.  OfBiz is more general and requires more customization.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * SugarCRM and other similar applications are examples of very large
>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>> communities because the application is a complete solution.  It is
>>>>>>> difficult
>>>>>>> to convince people to use ofbiz because there are pieces that are not
>>>>>>> complete and require customization.  The ability to customize is a
>>>>>>> benefit
>>>>>>> for some users but a drawback for others and is a hindrance to wide
>>>>>>> spread
>>>>>>> adoption.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Is it possible to break up the components more into separate
>>>>>>> installable
>>>>>>> modules. For example, framework versus applications.  We discussed
>>>>>>> how this
>>>>>>> is currently done but the feedback was to make it easier for people
>>>>>>> to pick
>>>>>>> and choose what components to install.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Any plans to integrate a complete rules engine into ofbiz
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Version control for release branches. Are they plans to do more
>>>>>>> frequent
>>>>>>> releases?  The current download of the nightly build is misleading as
>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>> think it is a stable release build but it is really just the nightly
>>>>>>> build
>>>>>>> from the trunk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * It was stated that OFBiz is a unique apache project as it is
>>>>>>> focused on
>>>>>>> business solutions where as most apache projects focus on a single
>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>> problem.  How that technology is used in an application is generally
>>>>>>> irrelevant.  OFBiz is different in that it tries to provide a
>>>>>>> complete
>>>>>>> solution for businesses and users. The feedback was that in the
>>>>>>> future it
>>>>>>> would be nice to attract more end users to the ofbiz apache
>>>>>>> conference
>>>>>>> rather than technical people that implement the solution. This was
>>>>>>> agreed
>>>>>>> that if there were more complete applications that the user community
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> grow and all people in the community would benefit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Another strategy for OFBiz would be to define business best
>>>>>>> practices and
>>>>>>> then implement those processes into the applications. This is a
>>>>>>> difficult
>>>>>>> task as all businesses are unique but just as ofbiz adopted a common
>>>>>>> data
>>>>>>> model there most be common business practices that would benefit all
>>>>>>> businesses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Improving the integration of the seleniumXml test framework with
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> existing ofbiz test framework. Also more examples of tests using the
>>>>>>> OOTB
>>>>>>> ofbiz applications would be desired.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The above comments are notes that I took during the round table
>>>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>>> They are not my own personal opinions but of those of the group.
>>>>>>>  Please
>>>>>>> feel free to comment on these ideas for the benefit of the community.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Overall, the people attending the conference commented that they
>>>>>>> would like
>>>>>>> OFBiz to continue to have these each year.  They would like to see
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> users attending the conference in the future.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brett
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

--
Jonatan Soto Aguilera
C/ Comte Borrell, 328 3º4ª
08029 Barcelona
Telf: [phone]
Móvil: [phone]
www.japanflavour.com

[Jacques Le Roux]

There have been some tries but none succeded really so far
https://lps4biz.dev.java.net/
ZK : http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBIZ/FAQ+-+Tips+-+Tricks+-+Cookbook+-+HowTo#FAQ-Tips-Tricks-Cookbook-HowTo-ZK(workinprogress)

Jacques

From: "jonatan soto" <[hidden email]>
Correct me if I'm wrong, I am just starting with Ofbiz, but I understand
that freemaker is just a template language like velocity so that means it is
possible to enhance the UI using almost whatever you want, even embedded
flash. I'm wondering if I could integrate OpenLaszlo or Adobe Flex 3, sorry
if it sounds stupid...

So under my limited knowledge, I think the Ofbiz UI is as it should be,
because it's a generic opensource ERP platform and it should include the
flexibility to integrate them but not implement them from scratch.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 10:06 PM, David E Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> It's a good point Jacopo... FaceBook and Google are not example of good UIs
> for complicated things, they are just simple applications where the UI is
> hard to mess up.
>
> IMO the usefulness of an application is all about applicability to
> requirements, or end-user needs. If it is close to those needs, great! If it
> is not, then it is painful to use, if helpful at all. So, step one is
> identifying user needs (aka requirements). Without those even the best
> design will be hit-and-miss based on which user's requirements it happens to
> meet.
>
> -David
>
>
>
> On Nov 11, 2009, at 2:06 AM, Jacopo Cappellato wrote:
>
>
>> On Nov 11, 2009, at 2:18 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:
>>
>>  Forgot to say, Facebook and iGoogle are the best samples of all :).
>>>
>>>
>> Hmmmm... the ui of FB and Google are example of ui that are richer than
>> the one of OFBiz, but I would not say that they are good examples of good
>> ui.
>> Often what is "nice" is not really useful, especially when the user
>> performs repetitive tasks.
>> For example: sometimes it is annoying to move your hands from the keyboard
>> to the mouse.
>>
>> Some general enhancements I would like to see in OFBiz:
>> * better error/success messages
>> * better handling of keyboard tab to move from one field to another
>> * more and better multi row submit screens
>> * more informative form fields (e.g. showing descriptions instead of just
>> ids)
>> * enhancing field interactions (the value of one field can change/hide/
>> etc other elements/data in the screen)
>>
>> BTW, I think it would be much better to focus on specific use
>> cases/workflows/system interactions, and suggest enhancements; for example:
>> 1) go to order manager
>> 2) select "order entry"
>> 3) select a customer; SUGGESTION: here I would like to get a better
>> selection mechanism, with....
>> 4) after the selection of a customer, etc...
>>
>> In this way it will be easier to focus on specific solutions and improve,
>> working with the community, key processes in the system.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jacopo
>>
>>
>>
>>> 在 2009-11-11三的 09:13 +0800，Shi Jinghai写道：
>>>
>>>> In the architectural level, JBoss Portal can be a good sample, the
>>>> concepts are portal, page, window.
>>>> http://www.jboss.org/jbossportal/
>>>> or
>>>> http://www.jboss.org/gatein
>>>>
>>>> If you're interested in how a user configs his/her page, you can login
>>>> our portal:
>>>> <a href="http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%">http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%
>>>> 2Fportal%2Fauth%2Fportal%2Fdefault%2FHome
>>>> Username: anon
>>>> Password: anon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In window level, OpenCms is a good example, list, dialog and etc.
>>>> http://demo.opencms.org/en/
>>>>
>>>> If you're interested in how a user use it, you can login our cms
>>>> workplace:
>>>> <a href="http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Fcms.langhua.org%">http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Fcms.langhua.org%
>>>> 3A80%2Fopencms705%2Fopencms%2Fsystem%2Flogin%2Findex.html
>>>> Username: anon
>>>> Password: anon
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 在 2009-11-10二的 19:02 -0500，Ruth Hoffman写道：
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Shi:
>>>>> Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by "web GUI"?
>>>>> Could you give an example of another application suite that has a "web
>>>>> GUI" as you suggest?
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> Shi Jinghai wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> OFBiz already has a core system (like a dos or linux core), it needs a
>>>>>> Windows/GNU(web GUI), perhaps it's time to consider to introduce a new
>>>>>> party who is an expert on this. Please don't confuse the GUI with CSS,
>>>>>> it's on dialog, window, menu, list, form and etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just my 2 cents,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PS: please rename the GUI in framework to another name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 在 2009-11-10二的 07:17 -0700，Brett Palmer写é“：
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Here are the notes that I took during the ApacheCon 2009 User Round
>>>>>>> Table.
>>>>>>> The conference was a success but I believe was less attended than
>>>>>>> normal.
>>>>>>> I've been to about 6 ofbiz conferences and this one was the least
>>>>>>> attended
>>>>>>> by ofbiz users than others.  I attribute this to the current economic
>>>>>>> situation rather than anything else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interestingly, a lot of the comments during the round table were
>>>>>>> similar to
>>>>>>> ones that we have had in the past. The project continues to make
>>>>>>> progress
>>>>>>> but from outsiders it is difficult to measure as some of the new
>>>>>>> features
>>>>>>> takes months to see in the end product.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There were six people in attendance at the round table. A few had to
>>>>>>> leave
>>>>>>> early to catch planes in the afternoon.  Of those that attended the
>>>>>>> round
>>>>>>> table two were speakers (myself and Ruth). Three of the attendees
>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>> service providers trying to better understand the direction of ofbiz
>>>>>>> and one
>>>>>>> was a new user that was active in other Apache projects and wanted to
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> more about ofbiz.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here are the key comments:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Everyone was very interested in the new project that Dave
>>>>>>> introduced a
>>>>>>> couple of weeks ago about a specialized application for small
>>>>>>> business. They
>>>>>>> wanted to know a lot more about this project and what it would
>>>>>>> include.
>>>>>>> There was a lot of excitement about the proposal.  I didn't have a
>>>>>>> lot of
>>>>>>> details to share so I told them to watch the mailing list for more
>>>>>>> details
>>>>>>> on the subject.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Most common complaint. The UI for the out of the box ecommerce
>>>>>>> application. The general feedback was that from a technical
>>>>>>> perspective
>>>>>>> people like ofbiz but it was difficult to convince key business
>>>>>>> people that
>>>>>>> ofbiz was right for their organization because of the lacking
>>>>>>> "sizzle" in
>>>>>>> the default application.   Non-technical people have a hard time
>>>>>>> determining
>>>>>>> how difficult it is to customize the UI and in a quick review will
>>>>>>> opt for a
>>>>>>> better looking application because that is all they can really
>>>>>>> evaluate.
>>>>>>> The general thought was that the lack of a very nice front end was
>>>>>>> slowing
>>>>>>> the adoption for ofbiz
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Another suggestion was around content management. The ofbiz CMS is
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> fully complete with a UI and business logic. The question was asked
>>>>>>> if it
>>>>>>> was possible to plugin other CSM packages the the Java Content
>>>>>>> Repository
>>>>>>> (JCR).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * There were some comments on OpenTaps and what it means to OFBiz.
>>>>>>> This is
>>>>>>> always an interesting discussion and I tried to explain the licensing
>>>>>>> problems with using OpenTaps. The one benefit people had about using
>>>>>>> OpenTaps is that it has a full CRM application that people can use
>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>> start.  OfBiz is more general and requires more customization.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * SugarCRM and other similar applications are examples of very large
>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>> communities because the application is a complete solution.  It is
>>>>>>> difficult
>>>>>>> to convince people to use ofbiz because there are pieces that are not
>>>>>>> complete and require customization.  The ability to customize is a
>>>>>>> benefit
>>>>>>> for some users but a drawback for others and is a hindrance to wide
>>>>>>> spread
>>>>>>> adoption.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Is it possible to break up the components more into separate
>>>>>>> installable
>>>>>>> modules. For example, framework versus applications.  We discussed
>>>>>>> how this
>>>>>>> is currently done but the feedback was to make it easier for people
>>>>>>> to pick
>>>>>>> and choose what components to install.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Any plans to integrate a complete rules engine into ofbiz
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Version control for release branches. Are they plans to do more
>>>>>>> frequent
>>>>>>> releases?  The current download of the nightly build is misleading as
>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>> think it is a stable release build but it is really just the nightly
>>>>>>> build
>>>>>>> from the trunk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * It was stated that OFBiz is a unique apache project as it is
>>>>>>> focused on
>>>>>>> business solutions where as most apache projects focus on a single
>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>> problem.  How that technology is used in an application is generally
>>>>>>> irrelevant.  OFBiz is different in that it tries to provide a
>>>>>>> complete
>>>>>>> solution for businesses and users. The feedback was that in the
>>>>>>> future it
>>>>>>> would be nice to attract more end users to the ofbiz apache
>>>>>>> conference
>>>>>>> rather than technical people that implement the solution. This was
>>>>>>> agreed
>>>>>>> that if there were more complete applications that the user community
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> grow and all people in the community would benefit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Another strategy for OFBiz would be to define business best
>>>>>>> practices and
>>>>>>> then implement those processes into the applications. This is a
>>>>>>> difficult
>>>>>>> task as all businesses are unique but just as ofbiz adopted a common
>>>>>>> data
>>>>>>> model there most be common business practices that would benefit all
>>>>>>> businesses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Improving the integration of the seleniumXml test framework with
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> existing ofbiz test framework. Also more examples of tests using the
>>>>>>> OOTB
>>>>>>> ofbiz applications would be desired.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The above comments are notes that I took during the round table
>>>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>>> They are not my own personal opinions but of those of the group.
>>>>>>>  Please
>>>>>>> feel free to comment on these ideas for the benefit of the community.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Overall, the people attending the conference commented that they
>>>>>>> would like
>>>>>>> OFBiz to continue to have these each year.  They would like to see
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> users attending the conference in the future.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brett
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

--
Jonatan Soto Aguilera
C/ Comte Borrell, 328 3º4ª
08029 Barcelona
Telf: [phone]
Móvil: [phone]
www.japanflavour.com

[Jacques Le Roux]

Hi Jacopo,

I put your comments at
http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/New+Features+Roadmap+-+Living+Document?focusedCommentId=9524#comment-9524

Thanks

Jacques

From: "Jacopo Cappellato" <[hidden email]>

>
> On Nov 11, 2009, at 2:18 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:
>
>> Forgot to say, Facebook and iGoogle are the best samples of all :).
>>
>
> Hmmmm... the ui of FB and Google are example of ui that are richer  than the one of OFBiz, but I would not say that they are good
> examples  of good ui.
> Often what is "nice" is not really useful, especially when the user  performs repetitive tasks.
> For example: sometimes it is annoying to move your hands from the  keyboard to the mouse.
>
> Some general enhancements I would like to see in OFBiz:
> * better error/success messages
> * better handling of keyboard tab to move from one field to another
> * more and better multi row submit screens
> * more informative form fields (e.g. showing descriptions instead of  just ids)
> * enhancing field interactions (the value of one field can change/ hide/ etc other elements/data in the screen)
>
> BTW, I think it would be much better to focus on specific use cases/ workflows/system interactions, and suggest enhancements; for
> example:
> 1) go to order manager
> 2) select "order entry"
> 3) select a customer; SUGGESTION: here I would like to get a better  selection mechanism, with....
> 4) after the selection of a customer, etc...
>
> In this way it will be easier to focus on specific solutions and  improve, working with the community, key processes in the
> system.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jacopo
>
>
>>
>> 在 2009-11-11三的 09:13 +0800，Shi Jinghai写道：
>>> In the architectural level, JBoss Portal can be a good sample, the
>>> concepts are portal, page, window.
>>> http://www.jboss.org/jbossportal/
>>> or
>>> http://www.jboss.org/gatein
>>>
>>> If you're interested in how a user configs his/her page, you can  login
>>> our portal:
>>> <a href="http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%">http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F%2Flanghua.org%
>>> 2Fportal%2Fauth%2Fportal%2Fdefault%2FHome
>>> Username: anon
>>> Password: anon
>>>
>>>
>>> In window level, OpenCms is a good example, list, dialog and etc.
>>> http://demo.opencms.org/en/
>>>
>>> If you're interested in how a user use it, you can login our cms
>>> workplace:
>>> http://sso.langhua.org/cas/login?service=http%3A%2F %2Fcms.langhua.org%
>>> 3A80%2Fopencms705%2Fopencms%2Fsystem%2Flogin%2Findex.html
>>> Username: anon
>>> Password: anon
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 在 2009-11-10二的 19:02 -0500，Ruth Hoffman写道：
>>>> Hello Shi:
>>>> Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by "web  GUI"?
>>>> Could you give an example of another application suite that has a  "web
>>>> GUI" as you suggest?
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> Shi Jinghai wrote:
>>>>> OFBiz already has a core system (like a dos or linux core), it  needs a
>>>>> Windows/GNU(web GUI), perhaps it's time to consider to introduce  a new
>>>>> party who is an expert on this. Please don't confuse the GUI with  CSS,
>>>>> it's on dialog, window, menu, list, form and etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my 2 cents,
>>>>>
>>>>> Shi Jinghai/Beijing Langhua Ltd.
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: please rename the GUI in framework to another name.
>>>>>
>>>>> 在 2009-11-10二的 07:17 -0700，Brett  Palmer写é“：
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here are the notes that I took during the ApacheCon 2009 User  Round Table.
>>>>>> The conference was a success but I believe was less attended  than normal.
>>>>>> I've been to about 6 ofbiz conferences and this one was the  least attended
>>>>>> by ofbiz users than others.  I attribute this to the current  economic
>>>>>> situation rather than anything else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interestingly, a lot of the comments during the round table were  similar to
>>>>>> ones that we have had in the past. The project continues to make  progress
>>>>>> but from outsiders it is difficult to measure as some of the new  features
>>>>>> takes months to see in the end product.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There were six people in attendance at the round table. A few  had to leave
>>>>>> early to catch planes in the afternoon.  Of those that attended  the round
>>>>>> table two were speakers (myself and Ruth). Three of the  attendees were
>>>>>> service providers trying to better understand the direction of  ofbiz and one
>>>>>> was a new user that was active in other Apache projects and  wanted to know
>>>>>> more about ofbiz.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here are the key comments:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Everyone was very interested in the new project that Dave  introduced a
>>>>>> couple of weeks ago about a specialized application for small  business. They
>>>>>> wanted to know a lot more about this project and what it would  include.
>>>>>> There was a lot of excitement about the proposal.  I didn't have  a lot of
>>>>>> details to share so I told them to watch the mailing list for  more details
>>>>>> on the subject.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Most common complaint. The UI for the out of the box ecommerce
>>>>>> application. The general feedback was that from a technical  perspective
>>>>>> people like ofbiz but it was difficult to convince key business  people that
>>>>>> ofbiz was right for their organization because of the lacking  "sizzle" in
>>>>>> the default application.   Non-technical people have a hard time  determining
>>>>>> how difficult it is to customize the UI and in a quick review  will opt for a
>>>>>> better looking application because that is all they can really  evaluate.
>>>>>> The general thought was that the lack of a very nice front end  was slowing
>>>>>> the adoption for ofbiz
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Another suggestion was around content management. The ofbiz  CMS is not
>>>>>> fully complete with a UI and business logic. The question was  asked if it
>>>>>> was possible to plugin other CSM packages the the Java Content  Repository
>>>>>> (JCR).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * There were some comments on OpenTaps and what it means to  OFBiz. This is
>>>>>> always an interesting discussion and I tried to explain the  licensing
>>>>>> problems with using OpenTaps. The one benefit people had about  using
>>>>>> OpenTaps is that it has a full CRM application that people can  use from the
>>>>>> start.  OfBiz is more general and requires more customization.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * SugarCRM and other similar applications are examples of very  large user
>>>>>> communities because the application is a complete solution.  It  is difficult
>>>>>> to convince people to use ofbiz because there are pieces that  are not
>>>>>> complete and require customization.  The ability to customize is  a benefit
>>>>>> for some users but a drawback for others and is a hindrance to  wide spread
>>>>>> adoption.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Is it possible to break up the components more into separate  installable
>>>>>> modules. For example, framework versus applications.  We  discussed how this
>>>>>> is currently done but the feedback was to make it easier for  people to pick
>>>>>> and choose what components to install.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Any plans to integrate a complete rules engine into ofbiz
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Version control for release branches. Are they plans to do  more frequent
>>>>>> releases?  The current download of the nightly build is  misleading as user
>>>>>> think it is a stable release build but it is really just the  nightly build
>>>>>> from the trunk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * It was stated that OFBiz is a unique apache project as it is  focused on
>>>>>> business solutions where as most apache projects focus on a  single technical
>>>>>> problem.  How that technology is used in an application is  generally
>>>>>> irrelevant.  OFBiz is different in that it tries to provide a  complete
>>>>>> solution for businesses and users. The feedback was that in the  future it
>>>>>> would be nice to attract more end users to the ofbiz apache  conference
>>>>>> rather than technical people that implement the solution. This  was agreed
>>>>>> that if there were more complete applications that the user  community would
>>>>>> grow and all people in the community would benefit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Another strategy for OFBiz would be to define business best  practices and
>>>>>> then implement those processes into the applications. This is a  difficult
>>>>>> task as all businesses are unique but just as ofbiz adopted a  common data
>>>>>> model there most be common business practices that would benefit  all
>>>>>> businesses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Improving the integration of the seleniumXml test framework  with the
>>>>>> existing ofbiz test framework. Also more examples of tests using  the OOTB
>>>>>> ofbiz applications would be desired.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The above comments are notes that I took during the round table  discussion.
>>>>>> They are not my own personal opinions but of those of the  group.  Please
>>>>>> feel free to comment on these ideas for the benefit of the  community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Overall, the people attending the conference commented that they  would like
>>>>>> OFBiz to continue to have these each year.  They would like to  see more
>>>>>> users attending the conference in the future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brett
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>