ComputerWorld Article, Mentions OFBiz

[Ian McNulty]

Scott,

There's something very odd happening with email at my end of the world.
For some reason I've only just received a copy of my own post to the ML
of 6 hours ago, your post below arrived after that and I still haven't
received the posts from Jacopo or yourself to which you refer. I'll
check Nabble to get myself up to speed and reply on the threads as and
when they arrive as you suggest.

I wasn't aware that I was feeling particularly frustrated. I'm just one
of those anally retentive OCD nuts who can only do stuff one step at a
time. I was just trying to establish that my various messages hadn't
been lost in the ether so I could close that chapter and move on to
something else.

Regards,

Ian



Scott Gray wrote:

> Ian,
>
> Jacopo and myself have replied to your second posting within the last
> few hours, please check the mailing list and we can continue any
> discussions on that thread.  Please don't feel frustrated, we do
> appreciate your work.
>
> Thanks
> Scott
>
> Ian McNulty wrote:
>> David,
>>
>> I'm getting really confused here.
>>
>> David E. Jones wrote:
>>> Having a large OOTB end-user community would certainly benefit the
>>> project, in really major ways too. The problem is that the current
>>> contributing community does not have sufficient resources to create
>>> and maintain what would be needed to satisfy this sort of user.
>>
>> It is generally accepted that one of the main things all OOTB
>> end-users need is accessible end-user documentation.
>>
>> In OFBiz End-User Documentation >  OFBiz End User Docs Home > Areas
>> Being Worked On, David E. Jones wrote:
>>
>>> There is a lot of work to be done on editing and structuring and
>>> reformatting the OFBiz documentation. In short, we need your help!
>>>
>>> You can find the PDF exports from the Undersun end-user
>>> documentation site here
>>> <http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBENDUSER/Undersun+Doc+Site+PDF+Exports>.
>>>
>>
>> As far as I can tell, half-completed fragments of various attempts to
>> translate the Manager Reference PDFs are currently scattered over at
>> least 6 other locations in the Wiki (for details see my comments at
>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBENDUSER/Areas+Being+Worked+On ).
>> There can be no doubt that most end-users will find this very
>> confusing and frustrating indeed.
>>
>> To help address the problem of the lack of resources in the current
>> contributing community, I decided to commit a considerable amount of
>> my own time to answering David's request for help by translating all
>> 12 of the Manager References in their entirety to Wiki format in one
>> location.
>>
>> This work has now been completed. I was not given access to the end
>> User Docs space so have put them in my personal Confluence space at
>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/~ian@.../Manager+References
>>
>> I posted news of this on the ML on the 3 March with a request that
>> they might now be transferred out of my to the End User Docs space -
>> but had absolutely no response whatsoever!
>>
>> I reposted this request under a new thread again on the 5 March - and
>> had absolutely no response again!
>>
>> I understand that most of the core team is currently engaged in the
>> Developer's Hackathon in Ephraim. But they are still posting here on
>> a raft of other issues. What am I to make of what would appear to be
>> their complete lack of interest in this one?
>>
>> BTW. Just to be clear on this, I am not looking for any thanks or
>> brownie points or engaging in any other kind of attention seeking
>> whatsoever. I understand that other members of this community have
>> committed considerably more to this project than I have and that my
>> contribution is very minor in comparison.
>>
>> What I am looking for is:
>>
>> 1) some kind of acknowledgement that the translated Manager Reference
>> PDFs can, at some time in the future, be transferred to a more public
>> section of the Wiki where they can be more easily accessed by
>> end-users and further amended and developed by those more qualified
>> than myself
>>
>> 2) some kind of solution to the cloud of confusion currently existing
>> in the user documentation, with half-completed fragments of various
>> attempts to translate the Manager Reference PDFs currently scattered
>> over at least 6 other locations in the Wiki.
>>
>> How unreasonable a request is that?
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> David E. Jones wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mar 5, 2007, at 6:57 PM, Jonathon -- Improov wrote:
>>>
>>>> David (Jones),
>>>>
>>>> What about those open source projects that are polished for OOTB
>>>> convenience and experience? Even Apache (httpd) and Tomcat (both
>>>> under Apache Licence 2.0?) have better OOTB "operational readiness"
>>>> than OFBiz. Ie, they work well OOTB and they have very good and
>>>> widely published docs to further fuel explosive rate of community
>>>> development. (I understand you believe that approach won't benefit
>>>> OFBiz; I don't know so I can't say.)
>>>
>>> Yeah, I guess I like Jacopo's point that it would be better to quite
>>> me than speak for me. In this I don't believe I even said/wrote
>>> anything like that.
>>>
>>> Having a large OOTB end-user community would certainly benefit the
>>> project, in really major ways too. The problem is that the current
>>> contributing community does not have sufficient resources to create
>>> and maintain what would be needed to satisfy this sort of user.
>>> Hopefully that will change in the future. In the mean time, the
>>> project is self-sustaining and growing based on use by non-OOTB
>>> users and contributors (or those that are OOTB users, but just
>>> extremely patient... ;) ).
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>
>
>
>

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[Ian McNulty]

Hey Chris,

Your concern is appreciated, but frustrated I am not. I'm simply working
through tasks and ticking them off the list in my typical
anally-retentive, OCD kind of way :-/

Yes, Jacopo did tell me where to put the docs. He didn't go through the
procedure in as much detail as you have done here, but I did kind of
understand that already. As I said in my post to David below, I wasn't
looking for any kind of thanks, simply some kind of acknowledgement that
somebody was that the work was now available for further development and
wouldn't be lost in the maelstrom of other activity the community is
currently engaged in.

Just to put the record straight, the process of uploading to the Wiki
took a week certainly, but that was just the tip of the iceberg. No way
I could have finished the whole job in just one week. As I'm sure you
know, the majority of the work had to be done off-line, exporting the
PDFs to txt and png, reformatting the txt into Wiki, putting the images
in the right place etc., etc. Even if it were possible, the sheer
monotony of doing all that in one week would have driven me even more
bonkers than I already am! I actually started way back in January and
have been spending all my spare time on it ever since. I don't like it
when people promise things they can't deliver, and from comments David
has made in previous discussions, it seems that OFBiz has suffered from
way too much of that already. So I didn't announce I was going to do it
until I'd already finished most of the job and was confident I could
finish the rest.

Patience is something I'm happy to say I have aplenty. I have no clients
with any need for OFBiz and therefore no need for any kind of
installation or documentation myself in the foreseeable future. So
there's no urgency from my end on anything.

Just for the record, I'm actually more interested in the development of
the open source movement as a whole than I am in OFBiz per se.

When I first came across OFBiz I picked this up on the ML:

Torsten Schlabach wrote:
> Today, at Universities around the world, when you learn what an
> operating system is, you use Linux. When you learn what a webserver is,
> you use Apache httpd. When you learn what XML, XSLT and the like is all
> about, you use Apache Cocoon. When you learn what a J2EE container is
> all about, you're likely to use either JBoss or Geronimo. When you learn
> what an ERP system is, and you're studying at a western university that
> either has enough money or is considered important enough, you will
> use SAP.

I just think that it would be a pretty crucial victory for the open
source community to be able to add something like OFBiz to the end of
that list. Whether OFBiz can, or even wants, to get there before any of
the other OS projects competing in the same territory remains to be
seen. All I do know is that I've contributed what  I can. Now I've
ticked that off the list, it's time to be moving on.

Best,

Ian
 



Chris Howe wrote:

> Hey Ian,
>
> I can understand your frustration, but Jacopo answered you February
> 23rd with how the process of having your work replace the current
> protected documentation would likely go.
> 1. Create the ones you're interested in updating in your user account
> space (BTW, great work on getting to all of them)
> 2. The community can then review, add to, clarify, rearrange your work
> as needed.
> 3. Replace the current docs in the protected space with the community
> reviewed docs to protect them from being edited by those who may not
> understand how things do/will fit together.
>
> You just finished step 1 within the week.  I know I personally schedule
> things I want to look at in the community project at least a week or
> two out (and still am only able to get around to about half of what I
> want to look at/contribute to).  I can only imagine the timetable for
> those that are doing OFBiz professionally would be even more drawn out
> than that unless it was a pressing topic.  In addition, there are a few
> things going on with UI refactoring and AJAX implementations that may
> make many of the screens that are documented obsolete or not work in
> the same fashion that the docs are describing.  This week's hackathon
> should show a firmer direction here.
>
> I surely appreciate the work you put into converting those docs over.
> I might suggest making a JIRA issue in regards to this so that
> discussion can be a bit more collected as interest in reviewing this is
> likely to trickle in rather than come in waves.  In any event, have a
> bit of patience and I'm certain it will work itself out :-)
>
> ,Chris
>
>
> --- Ian McNulty <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>> David,
>>
>> I'm getting really confused here.
>>
>> David E. Jones wrote:
>>    
>>> Having a large OOTB end-user community would certainly benefit the
>>> project, in really major ways too. The problem is that the current
>>> contributing community does not have sufficient resources to create
>>>      
>>> and maintain what would be needed to satisfy this sort of user.
>>>      
>> It is generally accepted that one of the main things all OOTB
>> end-users
>> need is accessible end-user documentation.
>>
>> In OFBiz End-User Documentation >  OFBiz End User Docs Home > Areas
>> Being Worked On, David E. Jones wrote:
>>
>>    
>>> There is a lot of work to be done on editing and structuring and
>>> reformatting the OFBiz documentation. In short, we need your help!
>>>
>>> You can find the PDF exports from the Undersun end-user
>>>      
>> documentation
>>    
>>> site here
>>>
>>>      
> <http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBENDUSER/Undersun+Doc+Site+PDF+Exports>.
>  
>> As far as I can tell, half-completed fragments of various attempts to
>>
>> translate the Manager Reference PDFs are currently scattered over at
>> least 6 other locations in the Wiki (for details see my comments at
>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBENDUSER/Areas+Being+Worked+On ).
>> There
>> can be no doubt that most end-users will find this very confusing and
>>
>> frustrating indeed.
>>
>> To help address the problem of the lack of resources in the current
>> contributing community, I decided to commit a considerable amount of
>> my
>> own time to answering David's request for help by translating all 12
>> of
>> the Manager References in their entirety to Wiki format in one
>> location.
>>
>> This work has now been completed. I was not given access to the end
>> User
>> Docs space so have put them in my personal Confluence space at
>>
>>    
> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/~ian@.../Manager+References
>  
>> I posted news of this on the ML on the 3 March with a request that
>> they
>> might now be transferred out of my to the End User Docs space - but
>> had
>> absolutely no response whatsoever!
>>
>> I reposted this request under a new thread again on the 5 March - and
>>
>> had absolutely no response again!
>>
>> I understand that most of the core team is currently engaged in the
>> Developer's Hackathon in Ephraim. But they are still posting here on
>> a
>> raft of other issues. What am I to make of what would appear to be
>> their
>> complete lack of interest in this one?
>>
>> BTW. Just to be clear on this, I am not looking for any thanks or
>> brownie points or engaging in any other kind of attention seeking
>> whatsoever. I understand that other members of this community have
>> committed considerably more to this project than I have and that my
>> contribution is very minor in comparison.
>>
>> What I am looking for is:
>>
>> 1) some kind of acknowledgement that the translated Manager Reference
>>
>> PDFs can, at some time in the future, be transferred to a more public
>>
>> section of the Wiki where they can be more easily accessed by
>> end-users
>> and further amended and developed by those more qualified than myself
>>
>> 2) some kind of solution to the cloud of confusion currently existing
>> in
>> the user documentation, with half-completed fragments of various
>> attempts to translate the Manager Reference PDFs currently scattered
>> over at least 6 other locations in the Wiki.
>>
>> How unreasonable a request is that?
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> David E. Jones wrote:
>>    
>>> On Mar 5, 2007, at 6:57 PM, Jonathon -- Improov wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>> David (Jones),
>>>>
>>>> What about those open source projects that are polished for OOTB
>>>> convenience and experience? Even Apache (httpd) and Tomcat (both
>>>> under Apache Licence 2.0?) have better OOTB "operational
>>>>        
>> readiness"
>>    
>>>> than OFBiz. Ie, they work well OOTB and they have very good and
>>>> widely published docs to further fuel explosive rate of community
>>>> development. (I understand you believe that approach won't benefit
>>>>        
>>>> OFBiz; I don't know so I can't say.)
>>>>        
>>> Yeah, I guess I like Jacopo's point that it would be better to
>>>      
>> quite
>>    
>>> me than speak for me. In this I don't believe I even said/wrote
>>> anything like that.
>>>
>>> Having a large OOTB end-user community would certainly benefit the
>>> project, in really major ways too. The problem is that the current
>>> contributing community does not have sufficient resources to create
>>>      
>>> and maintain what would be needed to satisfy this sort of user.
>>> Hopefully that will change in the future. In the mean time, the
>>> project is self-sustaining and growing based on use by non-OOTB
>>>      
>> users
>>    
>>> and contributors (or those that are OOTB users, but just extremely
>>> patient... ;) ).
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>>      
>
>
>
>  

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mcnultyMEDIA
60 Birkdale Gardens
Durham
DH1 2UL

t: [phone]
e: [hidden email]
w: www.mcnultymedia.co.uk
==============================================================================================
This communication is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s) named above and is confidential. Any form of distribution, copying, discussion or use of this communication, its contents, or any information contained herein without prior consent is strictly prohibited. If you receive this communication in error, please notify the sender by email or by telephone on [phone]

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==============================================================================================

[Ian McNulty]

Tim,

For some inexplicable reason your email seems to have been one of the
first replies posted on this issue, but only arrived in my inbox some 16
hours later, when I was just on my way to bed. Having had no response
for days to me 2 previous posts I've been somewhat overwhelmed by
today's reactions. As I said before, I wasn't looking for praise, but
it's very much appreciated anyway. Many thanks.

Best,

Ian



Tim Ruppert wrote:

> Ian, all I can say is that each day we've discussed trying to devote
> some resources the exercise you've teed up - and we're all interested
> in.  Things have been rather busy, as you can imagine, and we ask for
> a bit of patience.  
>
> We see your work and are excited about incorporating it as has been
> described in the past.  Great stuff and thanks again.
>
> Cheers,
> Tim
> --
> Tim Ruppert
> HotWax Media
> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>
> o:801.649.6594
> f:801.649.6595
>
>
> On Mar 7, 2007, at 12:11 AM, Ian McNulty wrote:
>
>> David,
>>
>> I'm getting really confused here.
>>
>> David E. Jones wrote:
>>> Having a large OOTB end-user community would certainly benefit the
>>> project, in really major ways too. The problem is that the current
>>> contributing community does not have sufficient resources to create
>>> and maintain what would be needed to satisfy this sort of user.
>>
>> It is generally accepted that one of the main things all OOTB
>> end-users need is accessible end-user documentation.
>>
>> In OFBiz End-User Documentation >  OFBiz End User Docs Home > Areas
>> Being Worked On, David E. Jones wrote:
>>
>>> There is a lot of work to be done on editing and structuring and
>>> reformatting the OFBiz documentation. In short, we need your help!
>>>
>>> You can find the PDF exports from the Undersun end-user
>>> documentation site here
>>> <http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBENDUSER/Undersun+Doc+Site+PDF+Exports>.
>>
>> As far as I can tell, half-completed fragments of various attempts to
>> translate the Manager Reference PDFs are currently scattered over at
>> least 6 other locations in the Wiki (for details see my comments at
>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBENDUSER/Areas+Being+Worked+On ).
>> There can be no doubt that most end-users will find this very
>> confusing and frustrating indeed.
>>
>> To help address the problem of the lack of resources in the current
>> contributing community, I decided to commit a considerable amount of
>> my own time to answering David's request for help by translating all
>> 12 of the Manager References in their entirety to Wiki format in one
>> location.
>>
>> This work has now been completed. I was not given access to the end
>> User Docs space so have put them in my personal Confluence space at
>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/~ian@.../Manager+References 
>> <http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/%7Eian@.../Manager+References>
>>
>> I posted news of this on the ML on the 3 March with a request that
>> they might now be transferred out of my to the End User Docs space -
>> but had absolutely no response whatsoever!
>>
>> I reposted this request under a new thread again on the 5 March - and
>> had absolutely no response again!
>>
>> I understand that most of the core team is currently engaged in the
>> Developer's Hackathon in Ephraim. But they are still posting here on
>> a raft of other issues. What am I to make of what would appear to be
>> their complete lack of interest in this one?
>>
>> BTW. Just to be clear on this, I am not looking for any thanks or
>> brownie points or engaging in any other kind of attention seeking
>> whatsoever. I understand that other members of this community have
>> committed considerably more to this project than I have and that my
>> contribution is very minor in comparison.
>>
>> What I am looking for is:
>>
>> 1) some kind of acknowledgement that the translated Manager Reference
>> PDFs can, at some time in the future, be transferred to a more public
>> section of the Wiki where they can be more easily accessed by
>> end-users and further amended and developed by those more qualified
>> than myself
>>
>> 2) some kind of solution to the cloud of confusion currently existing
>> in the user documentation, with half-completed fragments of various
>> attempts to translate the Manager Reference PDFs currently scattered
>> over at least 6 other locations in the Wiki.
>>
>> How unreasonable a request is that?
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> David E. Jones wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mar 5, 2007, at 6:57 PM, Jonathon -- Improov wrote:
>>>
>>>> David (Jones),
>>>>
>>>> What about those open source projects that are polished for OOTB
>>>> convenience and experience? Even Apache (httpd) and Tomcat (both
>>>> under Apache Licence 2.0?) have better OOTB "operational readiness"
>>>> than OFBiz. Ie, they work well OOTB and they have very good and
>>>> widely published docs to further fuel explosive rate of community
>>>> development. (I understand you believe that approach won't benefit
>>>> OFBiz; I don't know so I can't say.)
>>>
>>> Yeah, I guess I like Jacopo's point that it would be better to quite
>>> me than speak for me. In this I don't believe I even said/wrote
>>> anything like that.
>>>
>>> Having a large OOTB end-user community would certainly benefit the
>>> project, in really major ways too. The problem is that the current
>>> contributing community does not have sufficient resources to create
>>> and maintain what would be needed to satisfy this sort of user.
>>> Hopefully that will change in the future. In the mean time, the
>>> project is self-sustaining and growing based on use by non-OOTB
>>> users and contributors (or those that are OOTB users, but just
>>> extremely patient... ;) ).
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>

[Chandresh Turakhia]

Hi ,

Ofbiz is looked at with curiousity for reasons other than it was Open Source from few people.

Changing Values
----------------------------

Corportate 2.0 is all about Open Company. People need to pathom the need to make WallStreet 1.0 to appreciate attempts for Corporate 2.0 :)
Business 2.0 is only about Business Plan merged with Social Plans. Rise of Indian poor does not create "revolution" but makes many answerable on ballot bozez. Indians are being American of late - ASKING for cheaper & cheaper ( everyday low price ) goods - irrespective to national boundaries.

Things in perspective
--------------------------------

Indian Retail ( Organized Retail ) is tring to achieve in 5 years what other Developed Countries developed over a period of 25 years. It is frenzy@best.

Bharti teams with Wal-Mart and atleast 5 others 5Billion $ Plus other investments in organized retail. India has 10million pluz small traders. Number nowhere in the world match in unorganized sector.

Usual structure of Deal : Indian Partner brings capital and contacts; Western partner brings "Systems" which helps to 'derisk' capital investments. But it opens up to Political risk of "Unfair Advantage" to big business houses. Western Partner may give technology free to Indian venture but it further solidify case of Unfair Advantage. :(

Ofbiz Opportunity :
  a.. Indian Partner ACCEPTS Systems from Western Partner but uses SOFTWARE which is available for free to everyone
  b.. Hopefully Ofbiz gains in adapting to Established retail segment. Practical implementations.
What does It take make this happen ?

DISCLAIMER : This is just my personal thoughts. My Company has no obligations for whatsoever. AND I am not Lawyer.

Chand
Architect - COO team

[Torsten Schlabach-2]

Hi Chand!

Thank you very much for your thoughs. I indeed currently try to make the case of OFBiz.

What doesn't become clear to me from your message:

Is that just some random thoughts or do you pursue any concrete goal?

Regards,
Torsten

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:11:36 -0800
Von: "Chandresh Turakhia" <[hidden email]>
An: [hidden email]
CC: [hidden email]
Betreff: Ofbiz Opportunity :: Only Question which I ever needed to ask :)

> Hi ,
>
> Ofbiz is looked at with curiousity for reasons other than it was Open
> Source from few people.
>
> Changing Values
> ----------------------------
>
> Corportate 2.0 is all about Open Company. People need to pathom the need
> to make WallStreet 1.0 to appreciate attempts for Corporate 2.0 :)
> Business 2.0 is only about Business Plan merged with Social Plans. Rise of
> Indian poor does not create "revolution" but makes many answerable on
> ballot bozez. Indians are being American of late - ASKING for cheaper & cheaper
> ( everyday low price ) goods - irrespective to national boundaries.
>
> Things in perspective
> --------------------------------
>
> Indian Retail ( Organized Retail ) is tring to achieve in 5 years what
> other Developed Countries developed over a period of 25 years. It is
> frenzy@best.
>
> Bharti teams with Wal-Mart and atleast 5 others 5Billion $ Plus other
> investments in organized retail. India has 10million pluz small traders. Number
> nowhere in the world match in unorganized sector.
>
> Usual structure of Deal : Indian Partner brings capital and contacts;
> Western partner brings "Systems" which helps to 'derisk' capital investments.
> But it opens up to Political risk of "Unfair Advantage" to big business
> houses. Western Partner may give technology free to Indian venture but it
> further solidify case of Unfair Advantage. :(
>
> Ofbiz Opportunity :
>   a.. Indian Partner ACCEPTS Systems from Western Partner but uses
> SOFTWARE which is available for free to everyone
>   b.. Hopefully Ofbiz gains in adapting to Established retail segment.
> Practical implementations.
> What does It take make this happen ?
>
> DISCLAIMER : This is just my personal thoughts. My Company has no
> obligations for whatsoever. AND I am not Lawyer.
>
> Chand
> Architect - COO team