[DISCUSSION] Anticipate the end of life of the 13.07 branch and backport some non-bug related changes to the 14.12 and 15.12 branches

[Jacopo Cappellato-5]

Hi all,

as you may know we are working at migrating the build scripts of the OFBiz
trunk from Ant to Gradle.
Together with this important change we are also modifying, for policy
reasons, the way we distribute the external dependencies (i.e., the jar
files needed by OFBiz): the required jars will be downloaded at build time.
Since these changes are not bug fixes, the current plan is to do these
changes only in the trunk and do not backport them to the active branches,
that are currently:

* 13.07
* 14.12
* 15.12

However, we will still have to modify these branches by removing the
external jar files and download them using Ivy.

The first concern is that we will have to work on and stabilize two fronts:
Ivy for the 3 current release branches and Gradle for the trunk and the
future branches.
The second concern is that, as a consequence, we will have, for several
years, significant differences in the setup/build steps between the old
releases and the new ones that could cause confusion and regressions when
bugs are backported.

We have already issued 3 releases from the 13.07 branch and we have a
tentative plan to issue one more release around February 2017 that would be
the last release of this series.
As regards 14.12 and 15.12 branches, no releases have been issued yet.

Based on these details I would like you to consider the following decisions:

1) anticipate the end of life of the release branch 13.07 at now; we would
not issue the fourth release as initially planned
2) once stabilized, backport to 14.12 and 15.12 all the changes required to
build the system and download its dependencies with Gradle

Please express your opinion on each of them separately, since they are
independent (i.e., you could agree/disagree on the first/second/both).

Thanks,

Jacopo

[taher]

Hi Jacopo,

+1 for the first suggestion
+1 for the second suggestion

Although it is a bit more difficult to implement, it is beneficial on the
long run because it means a unified build system for all supported OFBiz
versions AND you also solve the ASF jar license issue. So strike two birds
with one stone

Cheers,

Taher Alkhateeb

[Jacques Le Roux]

Thanks Jacopo for the thorough explanation.

I totally agree, R13.07 was born dead anyway and it will be less work to backport.

I think though that we should release R14.12 ASAP in replacement of R13.07. It's already waiting for 1.5 year...

+1 for the idea!

Jacques



Le 28/06/2016 à 13:07, Taher Alkhateeb a écrit :

> Hi Jacopo,
>
> +1 for the first suggestion
> +1 for the second suggestion
>
> Although it is a bit more difficult to implement, it is beneficial on the
> long run because it means a unified build system for all supported OFBiz
> versions AND you also solve the ASF jar license issue. So strike two birds
> with one stone
>
> Cheers,
>
> Taher Alkhateeb
>

[Pranay Pandey-3]

Hi Jacopo,

Making perfect sense to move this way-
+1 for #1
+1 for #2 as well.


Best regards,

Pranay Pandey
HotWax Systems
http://www.hotwaxsystems.com/

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 3:56 PM, Jacopo Cappellato <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> as you may know we are working at migrating the build scripts of the OFBiz
> trunk from Ant to Gradle.
> Together with this important change we are also modifying, for policy
> reasons, the way we distribute the external dependencies (i.e., the jar
> files needed by OFBiz): the required jars will be downloaded at build time.
> Since these changes are not bug fixes, the current plan is to do these
> changes only in the trunk and do not backport them to the active branches,
> that are currently:
>
> * 13.07
> * 14.12
> * 15.12
>
> However, we will still have to modify these branches by removing the
> external jar files and download them using Ivy.
>
> The first concern is that we will have to work on and stabilize two fronts:
> Ivy for the 3 current release branches and Gradle for the trunk and the
> future branches.
> The second concern is that, as a consequence, we will have, for several
> years, significant differences in the setup/build steps between the old
> releases and the new ones that could cause confusion and regressions when
> bugs are backported.
>
> We have already issued 3 releases from the 13.07 branch and we have a
> tentative plan to issue one more release around February 2017 that would be
> the last release of this series.
> As regards 14.12 and 15.12 branches, no releases have been issued yet.
>
> Based on these details I would like you to consider the following
> decisions:
>
> 1) anticipate the end of life of the release branch 13.07 at now; we would
> not issue the fourth release as initially planned
> 2) once stabilized, backport to 14.12 and 15.12 all the changes required to
> build the system and download its dependencies with Gradle
>
> Please express your opinion on each of them separately, since they are
> independent (i.e., you could agree/disagree on the first/second/both).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jacopo
>

[Ashish Vijaywargiya-4]

+1 for #1.
+1 for #2.

Thanks Jacopo for the detailed email. It is very helpful!

Kind Regards
Ashish Vijaywargiya
HotWax Systems - est. 1997

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 3:56 PM, Jacopo Cappellato <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> as you may know we are working at migrating the build scripts of the OFBiz
> trunk from Ant to Gradle.
> Together with this important change we are also modifying, for policy
> reasons, the way we distribute the external dependencies (i.e., the jar
> files needed by OFBiz): the required jars will be downloaded at build time.
> Since these changes are not bug fixes, the current plan is to do these
> changes only in the trunk and do not backport them to the active branches,
> that are currently:
>
> * 13.07
> * 14.12
> * 15.12
>
> However, we will still have to modify these branches by removing the
> external jar files and download them using Ivy.
>
> The first concern is that we will have to work on and stabilize two fronts:
> Ivy for the 3 current release branches and Gradle for the trunk and the
> future branches.
> The second concern is that, as a consequence, we will have, for several
> years, significant differences in the setup/build steps between the old
> releases and the new ones that could cause confusion and regressions when
> bugs are backported.
>
> We have already issued 3 releases from the 13.07 branch and we have a
> tentative plan to issue one more release around February 2017 that would be
> the last release of this series.
> As regards 14.12 and 15.12 branches, no releases have been issued yet.
>
> Based on these details I would like you to consider the following
> decisions:
>
> 1) anticipate the end of life of the release branch 13.07 at now; we would
> not issue the fourth release as initially planned
> 2) once stabilized, backport to 14.12 and 15.12 all the changes required to
> build the system and download its dependencies with Gradle
>
> Please express your opinion on each of them separately, since they are
> independent (i.e., you could agree/disagree on the first/second/both).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jacopo
>

[Deepak Dixit-3]

Making perfect sense.

+1 for #1
+1 for #2

Thanks & Regards
--
Deepak Dixit
www.hotwaxsystems.com

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Ashish Vijaywargiya <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1 for #1.
> +1 for #2.
>
> Thanks Jacopo for the detailed email. It is very helpful!
>
> Kind Regards
> Ashish Vijaywargiya
> HotWax Systems - est. 1997
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 3:56 PM, Jacopo Cappellato <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > as you may know we are working at migrating the build scripts of the
> OFBiz
> > trunk from Ant to Gradle.
> > Together with this important change we are also modifying, for policy
> > reasons, the way we distribute the external dependencies (i.e., the jar
> > files needed by OFBiz): the required jars will be downloaded at build
> time.
> > Since these changes are not bug fixes, the current plan is to do these
> > changes only in the trunk and do not backport them to the active
> branches,
> > that are currently:
> >
> > * 13.07
> > * 14.12
> > * 15.12
> >
> > However, we will still have to modify these branches by removing the
> > external jar files and download them using Ivy.
> >
> > The first concern is that we will have to work on and stabilize two
> fronts:
> > Ivy for the 3 current release branches and Gradle for the trunk and the
> > future branches.
> > The second concern is that, as a consequence, we will have, for several
> > years, significant differences in the setup/build steps between the old
> > releases and the new ones that could cause confusion and regressions when
> > bugs are backported.
> >
> > We have already issued 3 releases from the 13.07 branch and we have a
> > tentative plan to issue one more release around February 2017 that would
> be
> > the last release of this series.
> > As regards 14.12 and 15.12 branches, no releases have been issued yet.
> >
> > Based on these details I would like you to consider the following
> > decisions:
> >
> > 1) anticipate the end of life of the release branch 13.07 at now; we
> would
> > not issue the fourth release as initially planned
> > 2) once stabilized, backport to 14.12 and 15.12 all the changes required
> to
> > build the system and download its dependencies with Gradle
> >
> > Please express your opinion on each of them separately, since they are
> > independent (i.e., you could agree/disagree on the first/second/both).
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jacopo
> >
>

[Julien NICOLAS]

+1 for the first
+1 for the second

It's important to keep consistency between projects !

On 28/06/2016 12:26, Jacopo Cappellato wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> as you may know we are working at migrating the build scripts of the OFBiz
> trunk from Ant to Gradle.
> Together with this important change we are also modifying, for policy
> reasons, the way we distribute the external dependencies (i.e., the jar
> files needed by OFBiz): the required jars will be downloaded at build time.
> Since these changes are not bug fixes, the current plan is to do these
> changes only in the trunk and do not backport them to the active branches,
> that are currently:
>
> * 13.07
> * 14.12
> * 15.12
>
> However, we will still have to modify these branches by removing the
> external jar files and download them using Ivy.
>
> The first concern is that we will have to work on and stabilize two fronts:
> Ivy for the 3 current release branches and Gradle for the trunk and the
> future branches.
> The second concern is that, as a consequence, we will have, for several
> years, significant differences in the setup/build steps between the old
> releases and the new ones that could cause confusion and regressions when
> bugs are backported.
>
> We have already issued 3 releases from the 13.07 branch and we have a
> tentative plan to issue one more release around February 2017 that would be
> the last release of this series.
> As regards 14.12 and 15.12 branches, no releases have been issued yet.
>
> Based on these details I would like you to consider the following decisions:
>
> 1) anticipate the end of life of the release branch 13.07 at now; we would
> not issue the fourth release as initially planned
> 2) once stabilized, backport to 14.12 and 15.12 all the changes required to
> build the system and download its dependencies with Gradle
>
> Please express your opinion on each of them separately, since they are
> independent (i.e., you could agree/disagree on the first/second/both).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jacopo
>

[Sharan-F]

Thanks Jacopo for the details and summary.

I know that some people might think it a bit strange that this discussion is happening on the user list rather than the dev list, but I think these topics are something that our users may have an opinion on and want to comment.

+1 for suggestion #1

13.07 has been around a while so I think that ending it now rather than next year will help us to focus on other work (e.g. refactoring and clean up)

+1 for suggestion #2

I think the work we are currently doing to improve the trunk build system isn't really that visible to our users, but it will make a big difference to developers and people who administer the system. Pushing those technical benefits back to 14.12 and 15.12 (if we still want to call them that!) will help.

Also OFBiz has changed a lot since the 14.12 and even 15.12 branches were created. We've incorporated so much new functionality that it would be a good thing to try and get some of this into our next release. Essentially it would mean more functionality for our users.

Thanks
Sharan

On 2016-06-28 12:26 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> as you may know we are working at migrating the build scripts of the OFBiz
> trunk from Ant to Gradle.
> Together with this important change we are also modifying, for policy
> reasons, the way we distribute the external dependencies (i.e., the jar
> files needed by OFBiz): the required jars will be downloaded at build time.
> Since these changes are not bug fixes, the current plan is to do these
> changes only in the trunk and do not backport them to the active branches,
> that are currently:
>
> * 13.07
> * 14.12
> * 15.12
>
> However, we will still have to modify these branches by removing the
> external jar files and download them using Ivy.
>
> The first concern is that we will have to work on and stabilize two fronts:
> Ivy for the 3 current release branches and Gradle for the trunk and the
> future branches.
> The second concern is that, as a consequence, we will have, for several
> years, significant differences in the setup/build steps between the old
> releases and the new ones that could cause confusion and regressions when
> bugs are backported.
>
> We have already issued 3 releases from the 13.07 branch and we have a
> tentative plan to issue one more release around February 2017 that would be
> the last release of this series.
> As regards 14.12 and 15.12 branches, no releases have been issued yet.
>
> Based on these details I would like you to consider the following decisions:
>
> 1) anticipate the end of life of the release branch 13.07 at now; we would
> not issue the fourth release as initially planned
> 2) once stabilized, backport to 14.12 and 15.12 all the changes required to
> build the system and download its dependencies with Gradle
>
> Please express your opinion on each of them separately, since they are
> independent (i.e., you could agree/disagree on the first/second/both).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jacopo
>

[Todd Thorner]

Thanks for this, Mr. Foga.  The Downloads page of the ofbiz.apache.org
site mentions 14.x and 15.x only as part of the project's tentative
release schedule.  Would end user newcomers be wise to wait out the
transition?



On 16-06-28 09:55 AM, Sharan Foga wrote:

> Thanks Jacopo for the details and summary.
>
> I know that some people might think it a bit strange that this discussion is happening on the user list rather than the dev list, but I think these topics are something that our users may have an opinion on and want to comment.
>
> +1 for suggestion #1
>
> 13.07 has been around a while so I think that ending it now rather than next year will help us to focus on other work (e.g. refactoring and clean up)
>
> +1 for suggestion #2
>
> I think the work we are currently doing to improve the trunk build system isn't really that visible to our users, but it will make a big difference to developers and people who administer the system. Pushing those technical benefits back to 14.12 and 15.12 (if we still want to call them that!) will help.
>
> Also OFBiz has changed a lot since the 14.12 and even 15.12 branches were created. We've incorporated so much new functionality that it would be a good thing to try and get some of this into our next release. Essentially it would mean more functionality for our users.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
> On 2016-06-28 12:26 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> as you may know we are working at migrating the build scripts of the OFBiz
>> trunk from Ant to Gradle.
>> Together with this important change we are also modifying, for policy
>> reasons, the way we distribute the external dependencies (i.e., the jar
>> files needed by OFBiz): the required jars will be downloaded at build time.
>> Since these changes are not bug fixes, the current plan is to do these
>> changes only in the trunk and do not backport them to the active branches,
>> that are currently:
>>
>> * 13.07
>> * 14.12
>> * 15.12
>>
>> However, we will still have to modify these branches by removing the
>> external jar files and download them using Ivy.
>>
>> The first concern is that we will have to work on and stabilize two fronts:
>> Ivy for the 3 current release branches and Gradle for the trunk and the
>> future branches.
>> The second concern is that, as a consequence, we will have, for several
>> years, significant differences in the setup/build steps between the old
>> releases and the new ones that could cause confusion and regressions when
>> bugs are backported.
>>
>> We have already issued 3 releases from the 13.07 branch and we have a
>> tentative plan to issue one more release around February 2017 that would be
>> the last release of this series.
>> As regards 14.12 and 15.12 branches, no releases have been issued yet.
>>
>> Based on these details I would like you to consider the following decisions:
>>
>> 1) anticipate the end of life of the release branch 13.07 at now; we would
>> not issue the fourth release as initially planned
>> 2) once stabilized, backport to 14.12 and 15.12 all the changes required to
>> build the system and download its dependencies with Gradle
>>
>> Please express your opinion on each of them separately, since they are
>> independent (i.e., you could agree/disagree on the first/second/both).
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jacopo
>>

[Pierre Smits]

+1 on putting the r13.07 branch out to the pasture, and bring the focus
towards r15 branch to cut a release soon.

+1 on putting the r14 branch out to the pasture, and bring the focus
towards r15 branch to cut a release soon.

+1 on focusing on getting the release from r15 out ASAP

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Todd Thorner <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Thanks for this, Mr. Foga.  The Downloads page of the ofbiz.apache.org
> site mentions 14.x and 15.x only as part of the project's tentative release
> schedule.  Would end user newcomers be wise to wait out the transition?
>
>
>
>
> On 16-06-28 09:55 AM, Sharan Foga wrote:
>
>> Thanks Jacopo for the details and summary.
>>
>> I know that some people might think it a bit strange that this discussion
>> is happening on the user list rather than the dev list, but I think these
>> topics are something that our users may have an opinion on and want to
>> comment.
>>
>> +1 for suggestion #1
>>
>> 13.07 has been around a while so I think that ending it now rather than
>> next year will help us to focus on other work (e.g. refactoring and clean
>> up)
>>
>> +1 for suggestion #2
>>
>> I think the work we are currently doing to improve the trunk build system
>> isn't really that visible to our users, but it will make a big difference
>> to developers and people who administer the system. Pushing those technical
>> benefits back to 14.12 and 15.12 (if we still want to call them that!) will
>> help.
>>
>> Also OFBiz has changed a lot since the 14.12 and even 15.12 branches were
>> created. We've incorporated so much new functionality that it would be a
>> good thing to try and get some of this into our next release. Essentially
>> it would mean more functionality for our users.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Sharan
>>
>> On 2016-06-28 12:26 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> as you may know we are working at migrating the build scripts of the
>>> OFBiz
>>> trunk from Ant to Gradle.
>>> Together with this important change we are also modifying, for policy
>>> reasons, the way we distribute the external dependencies (i.e., the jar
>>> files needed by OFBiz): the required jars will be downloaded at build
>>> time.
>>> Since these changes are not bug fixes, the current plan is to do these
>>> changes only in the trunk and do not backport them to the active
>>> branches,
>>> that are currently:
>>>
>>> * 13.07
>>> * 14.12
>>> * 15.12
>>>
>>> However, we will still have to modify these branches by removing the
>>> external jar files and download them using Ivy.
>>>
>>> The first concern is that we will have to work on and stabilize two
>>> fronts:
>>> Ivy for the 3 current release branches and Gradle for the trunk and the
>>> future branches.
>>> The second concern is that, as a consequence, we will have, for several
>>> years, significant differences in the setup/build steps between the old
>>> releases and the new ones that could cause confusion and regressions when
>>> bugs are backported.
>>>
>>> We have already issued 3 releases from the 13.07 branch and we have a
>>> tentative plan to issue one more release around February 2017 that would
>>> be
>>> the last release of this series.
>>> As regards 14.12 and 15.12 branches, no releases have been issued yet.
>>>
>>> Based on these details I would like you to consider the following
>>> decisions:
>>>
>>> 1) anticipate the end of life of the release branch 13.07 at now; we
>>> would
>>> not issue the fourth release as initially planned
>>> 2) once stabilized, backport to 14.12 and 15.12 all the changes required
>>> to
>>> build the system and download its dependencies with Gradle
>>>
>>> Please express your opinion on each of them separately, since they are
>>> independent (i.e., you could agree/disagree on the first/second/both).
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jacopo
>>>
>>>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Hi Pierre,

This is not orthodox, but after being surprised by the idea of not releasing R14, I think it make as much sense as not releasing R13.

We could then focus entirely on R15 and I'd even ask if we could not backport the files moves, now only in trunk, to R15.
So we could then easily backport the changes in those files. It seems those moves went well, which is actually not surprising since apart typos we
could not expect much issues.

Another possibility would be to soon freeze a R16 branch, once the Gradle use will have been validated for instance.

Opinions?

Jacques

Le 28/06/2016 à 20:09, Pierre Smits a écrit :

> +1 on putting the r13.07 branch out to the pasture, and bring the focus
> towards r15 branch to cut a release soon.
>
> +1 on putting the r14 branch out to the pasture, and bring the focus
> towards r15 branch to cut a release soon.
>
> +1 on focusing on getting the release from r15 out ASAP
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Todd Thorner <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for this, Mr. Foga.  The Downloads page of the ofbiz.apache.org
>> site mentions 14.x and 15.x only as part of the project's tentative release
>> schedule.  Would end user newcomers be wise to wait out the transition?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16-06-28 09:55 AM, Sharan Foga wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Jacopo for the details and summary.
>>>
>>> I know that some people might think it a bit strange that this discussion
>>> is happening on the user list rather than the dev list, but I think these
>>> topics are something that our users may have an opinion on and want to
>>> comment.
>>>
>>> +1 for suggestion #1
>>>
>>> 13.07 has been around a while so I think that ending it now rather than
>>> next year will help us to focus on other work (e.g. refactoring and clean
>>> up)
>>>
>>> +1 for suggestion #2
>>>
>>> I think the work we are currently doing to improve the trunk build system
>>> isn't really that visible to our users, but it will make a big difference
>>> to developers and people who administer the system. Pushing those technical
>>> benefits back to 14.12 and 15.12 (if we still want to call them that!) will
>>> help.
>>>
>>> Also OFBiz has changed a lot since the 14.12 and even 15.12 branches were
>>> created. We've incorporated so much new functionality that it would be a
>>> good thing to try and get some of this into our next release. Essentially
>>> it would mean more functionality for our users.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Sharan
>>>
>>> On 2016-06-28 12:26 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> as you may know we are working at migrating the build scripts of the
>>>> OFBiz
>>>> trunk from Ant to Gradle.
>>>> Together with this important change we are also modifying, for policy
>>>> reasons, the way we distribute the external dependencies (i.e., the jar
>>>> files needed by OFBiz): the required jars will be downloaded at build
>>>> time.
>>>> Since these changes are not bug fixes, the current plan is to do these
>>>> changes only in the trunk and do not backport them to the active
>>>> branches,
>>>> that are currently:
>>>>
>>>> * 13.07
>>>> * 14.12
>>>> * 15.12
>>>>
>>>> However, we will still have to modify these branches by removing the
>>>> external jar files and download them using Ivy.
>>>>
>>>> The first concern is that we will have to work on and stabilize two
>>>> fronts:
>>>> Ivy for the 3 current release branches and Gradle for the trunk and the
>>>> future branches.
>>>> The second concern is that, as a consequence, we will have, for several
>>>> years, significant differences in the setup/build steps between the old
>>>> releases and the new ones that could cause confusion and regressions when
>>>> bugs are backported.
>>>>
>>>> We have already issued 3 releases from the 13.07 branch and we have a
>>>> tentative plan to issue one more release around February 2017 that would
>>>> be
>>>> the last release of this series.
>>>> As regards 14.12 and 15.12 branches, no releases have been issued yet.
>>>>
>>>> Based on these details I would like you to consider the following
>>>> decisions:
>>>>
>>>> 1) anticipate the end of life of the release branch 13.07 at now; we
>>>> would
>>>> not issue the fourth release as initially planned
>>>> 2) once stabilized, backport to 14.12 and 15.12 all the changes required
>>>> to
>>>> build the system and download its dependencies with Gradle
>>>>
>>>> Please express your opinion on each of them separately, since they are
>>>> independent (i.e., you could agree/disagree on the first/second/both).
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Jacopo
>>>>
>>>>

[Paul Piper]

Hi all,

Not releasing 14 wouldn't make sense to me. Skipping releases never looks good, as it either means that there hasn't been enough contributions or that there are no proper release strategies in place. Neither make the community or the or the product look good to outsiders.

I can understand that one would want to drop support for 13, but i would argue that at least 14 should be kept as it seems stable and could act as a version that eases the transition to gradle. Then 15 would be 14 + gradle support and 16 a proper new release.

The reason i argue for this is also that our client installations rely on some sort of migration plan. Just calling end-of-life on a product and then moving forwards is hell for them, as it practically means that they will have to pay for a more stressful migration if they want to keep receiving security bugfixes.

So i hope i can convince the rest of you to think this over.

Regards,
Paul

[Jacques Le Roux]

Hi Paul,

I understand your concern, but seems to me that your answer is selfish. What about your comrades who have based their work on R13.07? They are in the
same situation than you!

OK this is kind of kidding, but see my point? ;)

A last point I always want to mention is, IMO, it's always better to use a branch by directly connecting your work with svn than using a packaged
version. So a compromise would be that instead of using the packaged release, people in your situation could consider connecting their work to svn at
the point (revision) the package they use was created. They would then get the same situation but iwould be able to easier follow the work done by the
community. We would then continue to backport in these branches, opinions?

Cheers

Jacques


Le 28/06/2016 à 22:58, Paul Piper a écrit :

> Hi all,
>
> Not releasing 14 wouldn't make sense to me. Skipping releases never looks
> good, as it either means that there hasn't been enough contributions or that
> there are no proper release strategies in place. Neither make the community
> or the or the product look good to outsiders.
>
> I can understand that one would want to drop support for 13, but i would
> argue that at least 14 should be kept as it seems stable and could act as a
> version that eases the transition to gradle. Then 15 would be 14 + gradle
> support and 16 a proper new release.
>
> The reason i argue for this is also that our client installations rely on
> some sort of migration plan. Just calling end-of-life on a product and then
> moving forwards is hell for them, as it practically means that they will
> have to pay for a more stressful migration if they want to keep receiving
> security bugfixes.
>
> So i hope i can convince the rest of you to think this over.
>
> Regards,
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/DISCUSSION-Anticipate-the-end-of-life-of-the-13-07-branch-and-backport-some-non-bug-related-changes-s-tp4686668p4686803.html
> Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

[Paul Piper]

I don't think that my argument is a selfish one, Jacques. An end-of-life with R13 is not my proposal, and neither are end of life of either 14 and 15. But given the current direction of this conversation I am convinced that a proper release plan is required and beneficial to all.

The current release promoted up on the website is 13. Calling it quits on it before you even have as much as a next release is not only confusing but also quite unfair to all the people who are basing their work on it. I don't necessarily cling onto any of these versions (as i stated before, i don't see too much difference functionality wise between 9-13), but I do think that a migration plan is the decent thing to do. In particular if you promote the idea of people having to keep up with trunk or any of the svn repositories (which frankly is a matter of time&money) you should allow people a transition phase.

Having seen the community promote 14 and 15 as branches before (instead of the packages), i would argue that perhaps there is a way to keep a straight face while working on a grander release - namely version 16:

1) release 14 to get away from 13
2) use 15 for the gradle upgrade
3) work on 16 as a proper feature release

[Sharan-F]

Hi Todd

I think we'll need to wait for the outcome of this current discussion to understand what will happen to the various 'unreleased releases'. So in response to your question - the simple answer would be yes. Once this discussion is over, we'll know what sort of transition we are looking at.

(BTW our website needs updating and I'm currently working on re-writing it completely.)

Thanks
Sharan

On 2016-06-28 19:32 (+0200), Todd Thorner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for this, Mr. Foga.  The Downloads page of the ofbiz.apache.org
> site mentions 14.x and 15.x only as part of the project's tentative
> release schedule.  Would end user newcomers be wise to wait out the
> transition?
>
>
>
> On 16-06-28 09:55 AM, Sharan Foga wrote:
> > Thanks Jacopo for the details and summary.
> >
> > I know that some people might think it a bit strange that this discussion is happening on the user list rather than the dev list, but I think these topics are something that our users may have an opinion on and want to comment.
> >
> > +1 for suggestion #1
> >
> > 13.07 has been around a while so I think that ending it now rather than next year will help us to focus on other work (e.g. refactoring and clean up)
> >
> > +1 for suggestion #2
> >
> > I think the work we are currently doing to improve the trunk build system isn't really that visible to our users, but it will make a big difference to developers and people who administer the system. Pushing those technical benefits back to 14.12 and 15.12 (if we still want to call them that!) will help.
> >
> > Also OFBiz has changed a lot since the 14.12 and even 15.12 branches were created. We've incorporated so much new functionality that it would be a good thing to try and get some of this into our next release. Essentially it would mean more functionality for our users.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Sharan
> >
> > On 2016-06-28 12:26 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> as you may know we are working at migrating the build scripts of the OFBiz
> >> trunk from Ant to Gradle.
> >> Together with this important change we are also modifying, for policy
> >> reasons, the way we distribute the external dependencies (i.e., the jar
> >> files needed by OFBiz): the required jars will be downloaded at build time.
> >> Since these changes are not bug fixes, the current plan is to do these
> >> changes only in the trunk and do not backport them to the active branches,
> >> that are currently:
> >>
> >> * 13.07
> >> * 14.12
> >> * 15.12
> >>
> >> However, we will still have to modify these branches by removing the
> >> external jar files and download them using Ivy.
> >>
> >> The first concern is that we will have to work on and stabilize two fronts:
> >> Ivy for the 3 current release branches and Gradle for the trunk and the
> >> future branches.
> >> The second concern is that, as a consequence, we will have, for several
> >> years, significant differences in the setup/build steps between the old
> >> releases and the new ones that could cause confusion and regressions when
> >> bugs are backported.
> >>
> >> We have already issued 3 releases from the 13.07 branch and we have a
> >> tentative plan to issue one more release around February 2017 that would be
> >> the last release of this series.
> >> As regards 14.12 and 15.12 branches, no releases have been issued yet.
> >>
> >> Based on these details I would like you to consider the following decisions:
> >>
> >> 1) anticipate the end of life of the release branch 13.07 at now; we would
> >> not issue the fourth release as initially planned
> >> 2) once stabilized, backport to 14.12 and 15.12 all the changes required to
> >> build the system and download its dependencies with Gradle
> >>
> >> Please express your opinion on each of them separately, since they are
> >> independent (i.e., you could agree/disagree on the first/second/both).
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Jacopo
> >>
>
>

[taher]

Hi Folks,

I'm sorry I completely forgot to mention this in this thread but after
release 15 I think, I completely refactored the start component. This
refactoring changed the logic and the syntax for OFBiz startup and server
commands. This heavily affect the build system because it executes server
commands.

So if we decide to backport gradle to older releases then it's not going to
be a straight copy and paste exercise but there will be modifications to
comply with the old syntax of the startup logic.

This is for your information on how we decide to move forward. I still like
the idea to switch to Gradle for all releases but its necessary for me to
State that there will be consequences in time and effort in doing that.

Regards,
Taher Alkhateeb
On Jun 29, 2016 10:24 AM, "Sharan Foga" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Todd

I think we'll need to wait for the outcome of this current discussion to
understand what will happen to the various 'unreleased releases'. So in
response to your question - the simple answer would be yes. Once this
discussion is over, we'll know what sort of transition we are looking at.

(BTW our website needs updating and I'm currently working on re-writing it
completely.)

Thanks
Sharan

On 2016-06-28 19:32 (+0200), Todd Thorner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for this, Mr. Foga.  The Downloads page of the ofbiz.apache.org
> site mentions 14.x and 15.x only as part of the project's tentative
> release schedule.  Would end user newcomers be wise to wait out the
> transition?
>
>
>
> On 16-06-28 09:55 AM, Sharan Foga wrote:
> > Thanks Jacopo for the details and summary.
> >
> > I know that some people might think it a bit strange that this

discussion is happening on the user list rather than the dev list, but I
think these topics are something that our users may have an opinion on and
want to comment.
> >
> > +1 for suggestion #1
> >
> > 13.07 has been around a while so I think that ending it now rather than
next year will help us to focus on other work (e.g. refactoring and clean
up)
> >
> > +1 for suggestion #2
> >
> > I think the work we are currently doing to improve the trunk build
system isn't really that visible to our users, but it will make a big
difference to developers and people who administer the system. Pushing
those technical benefits back to 14.12 and 15.12 (if we still want to call
them that!) will help.
> >
> > Also OFBiz has changed a lot since the 14.12 and even 15.12 branches
were created. We've incorporated so much new functionality that it would be
a good thing to try and get some of this into our next release. Essentially
it would mean more functionality for our users.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Sharan
> >
> > On 2016-06-28 12:26 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <
[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> as you may know we are working at migrating the build scripts of the
OFBiz
> >> trunk from Ant to Gradle.
> >> Together with this important change we are also modifying, for policy
> >> reasons, the way we distribute the external dependencies (i.e., the jar
> >> files needed by OFBiz): the required jars will be downloaded at build
time.
> >> Since these changes are not bug fixes, the current plan is to do these
> >> changes only in the trunk and do not backport them to the active
branches,

> >> that are currently:
> >>
> >> * 13.07
> >> * 14.12
> >> * 15.12
> >>
> >> However, we will still have to modify these branches by removing the
> >> external jar files and download them using Ivy.
> >>
> >> The first concern is that we will have to work on and stabilize two

fronts:
> >> Ivy for the 3 current release branches and Gradle for the trunk and the
> >> future branches.
> >> The second concern is that, as a consequence, we will have, for several
> >> years, significant differences in the setup/build steps between the old
> >> releases and the new ones that could cause confusion and regressions
when
> >> bugs are backported.
> >>
> >> We have already issued 3 releases from the 13.07 branch and we have a
> >> tentative plan to issue one more release around February 2017 that
would be
> >> the last release of this series.
> >> As regards 14.12 and 15.12 branches, no releases have been issued yet.
> >>
> >> Based on these details I would like you to consider the following
decisions:
> >>
> >> 1) anticipate the end of life of the release branch 13.07 at now; we
would
> >> not issue the fourth release as initially planned
> >> 2) once stabilized, backport to 14.12 and 15.12 all the changes
required to

> >> build the system and download its dependencies with Gradle
> >>
> >> Please express your opinion on each of them separately, since they are
> >> independent (i.e., you could agree/disagree on the first/second/both).
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Jacopo
> >>
>
>

[taher]

Hey Folks,

So again another light bulb just hit me. But instead of modifying the build
script for the older releases we can just propagate all the changes that
happened to the start component because nobody touches the start component
that would make the backporting much easier to the older releases.

Regards,

Taher Alkhateeb
On Jun 29, 2016 10:47 AM, "Taher Alkhateeb" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> I'm sorry I completely forgot to mention this in this thread but after
> release 15 I think, I completely refactored the start component. This
> refactoring changed the logic and the syntax for OFBiz startup and server
> commands. This heavily affect the build system because it executes server
> commands.
>
> So if we decide to backport gradle to older releases then it's not going
> to be a straight copy and paste exercise but there will be modifications to
> comply with the old syntax of the startup logic.
>
> This is for your information on how we decide to move forward. I still
> like the idea to switch to Gradle for all releases but its necessary for me
> to State that there will be consequences in time and effort in doing that.
>
> Regards,
> Taher Alkhateeb
> On Jun 29, 2016 10:24 AM, "Sharan Foga" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Todd
>
> I think we'll need to wait for the outcome of this current discussion to
> understand what will happen to the various 'unreleased releases'. So in
> response to your question - the simple answer would be yes. Once this
> discussion is over, we'll know what sort of transition we are looking at.
>
> (BTW our website needs updating and I'm currently working on re-writing it
> completely.)
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
> On 2016-06-28 19:32 (+0200), Todd Thorner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Thanks for this, Mr. Foga.  The Downloads page of the ofbiz.apache.org
> > site mentions 14.x and 15.x only as part of the project's tentative
> > release schedule.  Would end user newcomers be wise to wait out the
> > transition?
> >
> >
> >
> > On 16-06-28 09:55 AM, Sharan Foga wrote:
> > > Thanks Jacopo for the details and summary.
> > >
> > > I know that some people might think it a bit strange that this
> discussion is happening on the user list rather than the dev list, but I
> think these topics are something that our users may have an opinion on and
> want to comment.
> > >
> > > +1 for suggestion #1
> > >
> > > 13.07 has been around a while so I think that ending it now rather
> than next year will help us to focus on other work (e.g. refactoring and
> clean up)
> > >
> > > +1 for suggestion #2
> > >
> > > I think the work we are currently doing to improve the trunk build
> system isn't really that visible to our users, but it will make a big
> difference to developers and people who administer the system. Pushing
> those technical benefits back to 14.12 and 15.12 (if we still want to call
> them that!) will help.
> > >
> > > Also OFBiz has changed a lot since the 14.12 and even 15.12 branches
> were created. We've incorporated so much new functionality that it would be
> a good thing to try and get some of this into our next release. Essentially
> it would mean more functionality for our users.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Sharan
> > >
> > > On 2016-06-28 12:26 (+0200), Jacopo Cappellato <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >> Hi all,
> > >>
> > >> as you may know we are working at migrating the build scripts of the
> OFBiz
> > >> trunk from Ant to Gradle.
> > >> Together with this important change we are also modifying, for policy
> > >> reasons, the way we distribute the external dependencies (i.e., the
> jar
> > >> files needed by OFBiz): the required jars will be downloaded at build
> time.
> > >> Since these changes are not bug fixes, the current plan is to do these
> > >> changes only in the trunk and do not backport them to the active
> branches,
> > >> that are currently:
> > >>
> > >> * 13.07
> > >> * 14.12
> > >> * 15.12
> > >>
> > >> However, we will still have to modify these branches by removing the
> > >> external jar files and download them using Ivy.
> > >>
> > >> The first concern is that we will have to work on and stabilize two
> fronts:
> > >> Ivy for the 3 current release branches and Gradle for the trunk and
> the
> > >> future branches.
> > >> The second concern is that, as a consequence, we will have, for
> several
> > >> years, significant differences in the setup/build steps between the
> old
> > >> releases and the new ones that could cause confusion and regressions
> when
> > >> bugs are backported.
> > >>
> > >> We have already issued 3 releases from the 13.07 branch and we have a
> > >> tentative plan to issue one more release around February 2017 that
> would be
> > >> the last release of this series.
> > >> As regards 14.12 and 15.12 branches, no releases have been issued yet.
> > >>
> > >> Based on these details I would like you to consider the following
> decisions:
> > >>
> > >> 1) anticipate the end of life of the release branch 13.07 at now; we
> would
> > >> not issue the fourth release as initially planned
> > >> 2) once stabilized, backport to 14.12 and 15.12 all the changes
> required to
> > >> build the system and download its dependencies with Gradle
> > >>
> > >> Please express your opinion on each of them separately, since they are
> > >> independent (i.e., you could agree/disagree on the first/second/both).
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> Jacopo
> > >>
> >
> >
>
>

[Divesh Dutta-2]

I agree with both the proposals. i.e :

1) Anticipate the end of life of the release branch 13.07 at now; we would
not issue the fourth release as initially planned.

2) Once stabilized, backport to 14.12 and 15.12 all the changes required to
build the system and download its dependencies with Gradle.

Thanks
--
Divesh Dutta.

On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 2:28 AM, Paul Piper <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Not releasing 14 wouldn't make sense to me. Skipping releases never looks
> good, as it either means that there hasn't been enough contributions or
> that
> there are no proper release strategies in place. Neither make the community
> or the or the product look good to outsiders.
>
> I can understand that one would want to drop support for 13, but i would
> argue that at least 14 should be kept as it seems stable and could act as a
> version that eases the transition to gradle. Then 15 would be 14 + gradle
> support and 16 a proper new release.
>
> The reason i argue for this is also that our client installations rely on
> some sort of migration plan. Just calling end-of-life on a product and then
> moving forwards is hell for them, as it practically means that they will
> have to pay for a more stressful migration if they want to keep receiving
> security bugfixes.
>
> So i hope i can convince the rest of you to think this over.
>
> Regards,
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/DISCUSSION-Anticipate-the-end-of-life-of-the-13-07-branch-and-backport-some-non-bug-related-changes-s-tp4686668p4686803.html
> Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Inline...


Le 29/06/2016 à 08:33, Paul Piper a écrit :
> 1) release 14 to get away from 13

Agreed, I also proposed that before

> 2) use 15 for the gradle upgrade

+1, seems that we will need to backport start component changes as explained Taher. Not a big deal, it's stable enough.

> 3) work on 16 as a proper feature release

Yes, I also proposed that before

Jacques

[Christian Geisert]

While replacing Ant with Gradle sounds like a good plan, I don't think
it's a good idea to backport these changes. Seriously, when implementing
OFBiz at a customer the only sane choice is to use a release branch
(even if there is no release yet). The point of a release is to have a
stable codebase, and porting the Gradle stuff (including changes in
startup etc.) to the release branches will cause instability.
Additionally, It will take quite some time before these changes will be
done in trunk. Releasing 14.12 and 15.12 without the changes and then
later doing a minor release with the changes would be bad.

My proposal is to release 14.12 ASAP, after that dropping 13.07 and then
trying to do a release 16.x with Gradle. And a release of 15.12in
between wouldn't be bad either ;)

Christian

Am 28.06.2016 12:26, schrieb Jacopo Cappellato:

> Hi all,
>
> as you may know we are working at migrating the build scripts of the OFBiz
> trunk from Ant to Gradle.
> Together with this important change we are also modifying, for policy
> reasons, the way we distribute the external dependencies (i.e., the jar
> files needed by OFBiz): the required jars will be downloaded at build time.
> Since these changes are not bug fixes, the current plan is to do these
> changes only in the trunk and do not backport them to the active branches,
> that are currently:
>
> * 13.07
> * 14.12
> * 15.12
>
> However, we will still have to modify these branches by removing the
> external jar files and download them using Ivy.
>
> The first concern is that we will have to work on and stabilize two fronts:
> Ivy for the 3 current release branches and Gradle for the trunk and the
> future branches.
> The second concern is that, as a consequence, we will have, for several
> years, significant differences in the setup/build steps between the old
> releases and the new ones that could cause confusion and regressions when
> bugs are backported.
>
> We have already issued 3 releases from the 13.07 branch and we have a
> tentative plan to issue one more release around February 2017 that would be
> the last release of this series.
> As regards 14.12 and 15.12 branches, no releases have been issued yet.
>
> Based on these details I would like you to consider the following decisions:
>
> 1) anticipate the end of life of the release branch 13.07 at now; we would
> not issue the fourth release as initially planned
> 2) once stabilized, backport to 14.12 and 15.12 all the changes required to
> build the system and download its dependencies with Gradle
>
> Please express your opinion on each of them separately, since they are
> independent (i.e., you could agree/disagree on the first/second/both).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jacopo
>