Discussion: Main Content Layout Best Practices

[Jacques Le Roux]

Ha ok, sorry I missed the relation between "add form on the top but hidden " and "We could even make it fancy and popup over top"

In this case I will vote for with my 2 hands and I will even hope that we could use such techniques to create an hidden calendar and
show it when needed. If we do it during lauching it's not very sensible since launching takes time anyway and after it would be
great to see it popping quickly.

Thanks

Jacques

From: "Anil Patel" <[hidden email]>

>I think what David is suggesting is something like this http://www.wildbit.com/demos/modalbox/
>
> Regards
> Anil Patel
>
>
> On May 23, 2008, at 1:57 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>
>>
>> I didn't say open a new window, I said either expand a hidden area  or popup using JavaScript within the window (ie over top of
>> the list  behind it).
>>
>> -David
>>
>>
>> On May 23, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>
>>> IMHO, we should avoid to overuse popping as opening a new window is  time consuming (especially in Firefox). This is currently a
>>> major  inconvenience for Lookups and Calendar for instance
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>> Since we're entering the world of using more javascript in the   browser, why not have the add form on the top but hidden by
>>>> default  with and Add button of some sort that would cause the  form to be  shown? We could even make it fancy and popup over
>>>> top  of the list form  and have it go away after submission with an  update of the list behind  it... without any page loads
>>>> even.
>>>>
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I would agree with that but personally I would prefer to see them  on
>>>>> completely different pages.  If I wanted to be able to refer back  to  the
>>>>> list while adding I would ctrl+click and then ctrl+tab to flick  back  and
>>>>> forth, that's what makes tabbed browsers so handy.  One of the   problems with
>>>>> having them on the same page is that any errors after adding  would be
>>>>> displayed before the list while the add form would be way down  the  bottom.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Scott
>>>>>
>>>>> 2008/5/23 David E Jones <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) If a screen has a list and add form, what should be the order  of  these
>>>>>>>> forms (I have seen in your recent work that add form should  come  on top
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> I completely
>>>>>>>> agree with this).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe the form should be on top of the list. Otherwise, as  you  add
>>>>>>> items to the list, the form is scrolled off the bottom of the   screen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The main question is: what is going to be used more? Will it be  the  list or
>>>>>> the add form?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If in most cases it will be the list, and if you have to scroll   down every
>>>>>> time to see it... that's a pain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

[Scott Gray]

It looks nice but if we did that the user would lose the ability to refer
back to the list while entering data, I would prefer an expand/collapse form
if we are going to keep them on the same page.

Regards
Scott

2008/5/24 Anil Patel <[hidden email]>:

> I think what David is suggesting is something like this
> http://www.wildbit.com/demos/modalbox/
>
> Regards
> Anil Patel
>
>
>
> On May 23, 2008, at 1:57 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>
>
>> I didn't say open a new window, I said either expand a hidden area or
>> popup using JavaScript within the window (ie over top of the list behind
>> it).
>>
>> -David
>>
>>
>> On May 23, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>
>>  IMHO, we should avoid to overuse popping as opening a new window is time
>>> consuming (especially in Firefox). This is currently a major inconvenience
>>> for Lookups and Calendar for instance
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Since we're entering the world of using more javascript in the  browser,
>>>> why not have the add form on the top but hidden by default  with and Add
>>>> button of some sort that would cause the form to be  shown? We could even
>>>> make it fancy and popup over top of the list form  and have it go away after
>>>> submission with an update of the list behind  it... without any page loads
>>>> even.
>>>>
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  I would agree with that but personally I would prefer to see them on
>>>>> completely different pages.  If I wanted to be able to refer back to
>>>>>  the
>>>>> list while adding I would ctrl+click and then ctrl+tab to flick back
>>>>>  and
>>>>> forth, that's what makes tabbed browsers so handy.  One of the
>>>>>  problems with
>>>>> having them on the same page is that any errors after adding would be
>>>>> displayed before the list while the add form would be way down the
>>>>>  bottom.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Scott
>>>>>
>>>>> 2008/5/23 David E Jones <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) If a screen has a list and add form, what should be the order of
>>>>>>  these
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> forms (I have seen in your recent work that add form should come  on
>>>>>>>> top
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> I completely
>>>>>>>> agree with this).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe the form should be on top of the list. Otherwise, as you
>>>>>>>  add
>>>>>>> items to the list, the form is scrolled off the bottom of the
>>>>>>>  screen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The main question is: what is going to be used more? Will it be the
>>>>>>  list or
>>>>>> the add form?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If in most cases it will be the list, and if you have to scroll  down
>>>>>> every
>>>>>> time to see it... that's a pain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>
>

[Scott Gray]

About the +/- button, having it on the right-hand side seems
counterintuitive to me, I would rather see it on the left.  Or better yet, I
love how in gmail I can click anywhere along the title of a message and have
it expand/collapse.

Scott

2008/5/24 Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]>:

>
> 1) About the "+" "-" button, I did not notice them until I really searched
> for it (after I saw a remark about them in ML I guess). It's a good idea and
> a good replacement for the double pages proposed by Scott. But then they
> should be *much more* visible.
>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

> About the +/- button, having it on the right-hand side seems
> counterintuitive to me, I would rather see it on the left.  Or better yet, I
> love how in gmail I can click anywhere along the title of a message and have
> it expand/collapse.

Yes, we may have even both, like in Windows (and in Gnome as well at least, maybe it even comes from Mac at beginning) : you can
dlb-click to maxi-minimize or use the button at the right (note then that having them at right is not counterintuitive to everybody,
conventions... ;o)

Jacques

> Scott
>
> 2008/5/24 Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]>:
>
>>
>> 1) About the "+" "-" button, I did not notice them until I really searched
>> for it (after I saw a remark about them in ML I guess). It's a good idea and
>> a good replacement for the double pages proposed by Scott. But then they
>> should be *much more* visible.
>>
>>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]>
> It looks nice but if we did that the user would lose the ability to refer
> back to the list while entering data, I would prefer an expand/collapse form
> if we are going to keep them on the same page.

Yes I agree, but I really like the idea for the calendar (I can't propose it for lookups are they are too much to be loaded when
lauching and the probability of use is far more low, but maybe one day, when machines will be more powerful :D

Jacques

> Regards
> Scott
>
> 2008/5/24 Anil Patel <[hidden email]>:
>
>> I think what David is suggesting is something like this
>> http://www.wildbit.com/demos/modalbox/
>>
>> Regards
>> Anil Patel
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 23, 2008, at 1:57 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I didn't say open a new window, I said either expand a hidden area or
>>> popup using JavaScript within the window (ie over top of the list behind
>>> it).
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 23, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>
>>>  IMHO, we should avoid to overuse popping as opening a new window is time
>>>> consuming (especially in Firefox). This is currently a major inconvenience
>>>> for Lookups and Calendar for instance
>>>>
>>>> Jacques
>>>>
>>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Since we're entering the world of using more javascript in the  browser,
>>>>> why not have the add form on the top but hidden by default  with and Add
>>>>> button of some sort that would cause the form to be  shown? We could even
>>>>> make it fancy and popup over top of the list form  and have it go away after
>>>>> submission with an update of the list behind  it... without any page loads
>>>>> even.
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  I would agree with that but personally I would prefer to see them on
>>>>>> completely different pages.  If I wanted to be able to refer back to
>>>>>>  the
>>>>>> list while adding I would ctrl+click and then ctrl+tab to flick back
>>>>>>  and
>>>>>> forth, that's what makes tabbed browsers so handy.  One of the
>>>>>>  problems with
>>>>>> having them on the same page is that any errors after adding would be
>>>>>> displayed before the list while the add form would be way down the
>>>>>>  bottom.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2008/5/23 David E Jones <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) If a screen has a list and add form, what should be the order of
>>>>>>>  these
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> forms (I have seen in your recent work that add form should come  on
>>>>>>>>> top
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> I completely
>>>>>>>>> agree with this).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I believe the form should be on top of the list. Otherwise, as you
>>>>>>>>  add
>>>>>>>> items to the list, the form is scrolled off the bottom of the
>>>>>>>>  screen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The main question is: what is going to be used more? Will it be the
>>>>>>>  list or
>>>>>>> the add form?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If in most cases it will be the list, and if you have to scroll  down
>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>> time to see it... that's a pain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

From: "Jacques Le Roux" <[hidden email]>

> From: "Vikas Mayur" <[hidden email]>
>> On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Adrian Crum <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> So, you are saying the list should contain all records when the page is
>>> first displayed, and then it can be refined by the user if needed. Is that
>>> correct?
>>>
>>
>> Yes -  that is correct indeed. But again this is just my thoughts and would
>> like to hear from you (others) whether it is something doable (if this could
>> be part of standard convention(s)).
>
> Why not as long as the list is shown with a reasonable default length
>
> 1) About the "+" "-" button, I did not notice them until I really searched for it (after I saw a remark about them in ML I guess).
> It's a good idea and a good replacement for the double pages proposed by Scott. But then they should be *much more* visible.
>
> 2) Find as the button name is fine to me.
>
> 3) +1
>
> BTW I remember having suggested some changes months (or years?) ago. I will try to find my propositions

I found the link, nothing great in it http://www.nabble.com/forum/Permalink.jtp?root=8474257&post=8487874&page=y

> Jacques

[Adrian Crum-2]

Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> wrote: Ha ok, sorry I missed the relation between "add form on the top but hidden " and "We could even make it fancy and popup over top"

In this case I will vote for with my 2 hands and I will even hope that we could use such techniques to create an hidden calendar and
show it when needed. If we do it during lauching it's not very sensible since launching takes time anyway and after it would be
great to see it popping quickly.

I was thinking we can have an ajax-powered date control that has dropdowns for year, month, and day.

-Adrian

       

[Jacques Le Roux]

From: "Adrian Crum" <[hidden email]>
> Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> wrote: Ha ok, sorry I missed the relation between "add form on the top but hidden "
> and "We could even make it fancy and popup over top"
>
> In this case I will vote for with my 2 hands and I will even hope that we could use such techniques to create an hidden calendar
> and
> show it when needed. If we do it during lauching it's not very sensible since launching takes time anyway and after it would be
> great to see it popping quickly.
>
> I was thinking we can have an ajax-powered date control that has dropdowns for year, month, and day.

Yes why not, but my main concern was about the time to load the popup windows.

Jacques

> -Adrian

[Adrian Crum]

Getting back to this...

Here are the layout best practices discussed so far:

"In the case where items are being added to a list, it is preferable to
have the item data entry screen and the item list on separate screens.
If the two functions are incorporated into one screen, then the item
data entry screen should be above the item list. In addition, the item
data entry screen should be collapsible and initially collapsed."

"If a Find Item screen has a form for search options, the search options
form should be above the list of items found. The list of items found
should display all items initially - giving the user the ability to
narrow the results via the search options form."

Can we agree on these?

-Adrian

Jacques Le Roux wrote:

> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]>
>> It looks nice but if we did that the user would lose the ability to refer
>> back to the list while entering data, I would prefer an
>> expand/collapse form
>> if we are going to keep them on the same page.
>
> Yes I agree, but I really like the idea for the calendar (I can't
> propose it for lookups are they are too much to be loaded when lauching
> and the probability of use is far more low, but maybe one day, when
> machines will be more powerful :D
>
> Jacques
>
>> Regards
>> Scott
>>
>> 2008/5/24 Anil Patel <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> I think what David is suggesting is something like this
>>> http://www.wildbit.com/demos/modalbox/
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Anil Patel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 23, 2008, at 1:57 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I didn't say open a new window, I said either expand a hidden area or
>>>> popup using JavaScript within the window (ie over top of the list
>>>> behind
>>>> it).
>>>>
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  IMHO, we should avoid to overuse popping as opening a new window is
>>>> time
>>>>> consuming (especially in Firefox). This is currently a major
>>>>> inconvenience
>>>>> for Lookups and Calendar for instance
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>
>>>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since we're entering the world of using more javascript in the  
>>>>>> browser,
>>>>>> why not have the add form on the top but hidden by default  with
>>>>>> and Add
>>>>>> button of some sort that would cause the form to be  shown? We
>>>>>> could even
>>>>>> make it fancy and popup over top of the list form  and have it go
>>>>>> away after
>>>>>> submission with an update of the list behind  it... without any
>>>>>> page loads
>>>>>> even.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I would agree with that but personally I would prefer to see them on
>>>>>>> completely different pages.  If I wanted to be able to refer back to
>>>>>>>  the
>>>>>>> list while adding I would ctrl+click and then ctrl+tab to flick back
>>>>>>>  and
>>>>>>> forth, that's what makes tabbed browsers so handy.  One of the
>>>>>>>  problems with
>>>>>>> having them on the same page is that any errors after adding
>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>> displayed before the list while the add form would be way down the
>>>>>>>  bottom.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2008/5/23 David E Jones <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2) If a screen has a list and add form, what should be the order of
>>>>>>>>  these
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> forms (I have seen in your recent work that add form should
>>>>>>>>> come  on
>>>>>>>>>> top
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> I completely
>>>>>>>>>> agree with this).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I believe the form should be on top of the list. Otherwise, as you
>>>>>>>>>  add
>>>>>>>>> items to the list, the form is scrolled off the bottom of the
>>>>>>>>>  screen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The main question is: what is going to be used more? Will it be the
>>>>>>>>  list or
>>>>>>>> the add form?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If in most cases it will be the list, and if you have to scroll  
>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>> time to see it... that's a pain.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

[Daniel Martínez-4]

+1
(to both)
--
Daniel

Adrian Crum escribió:

> Getting back to this...
>
> Here are the layout best practices discussed so far:
>
> "In the case where items are being added to a list, it is preferable
> to have the item data entry screen and the item list on separate
> screens. If the two functions are incorporated into one screen, then
> the item data entry screen should be above the item list. In addition,
> the item data entry screen should be collapsible and initially
> collapsed."
>
> "If a Find Item screen has a form for search options, the search
> options form should be above the list of items found. The list of
> items found should display all items initially - giving the user the
> ability to narrow the results via the search options form."
>
> Can we agree on these?
>
> -Adrian
>
> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]>
>>> It looks nice but if we did that the user would lose the ability to
>>> refer
>>> back to the list while entering data, I would prefer an
>>> expand/collapse form
>>> if we are going to keep them on the same page.
>>
>> Yes I agree, but I really like the idea for the calendar (I can't
>> propose it for lookups are they are too much to be loaded when
>> lauching and the probability of use is far more low, but maybe one
>> day, when machines will be more powerful :D
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>>> Regards
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> 2008/5/24 Anil Patel <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>> I think what David is suggesting is something like this
>>>> http://www.wildbit.com/demos/modalbox/
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 1:57 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I didn't say open a new window, I said either expand a hidden area or
>>>>> popup using JavaScript within the window (ie over top of the list
>>>>> behind
>>>>> it).
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  IMHO, we should avoid to overuse popping as opening a new window
>>>>> is time
>>>>>> consuming (especially in Firefox). This is currently a major
>>>>>> inconvenience
>>>>>> for Lookups and Calendar for instance
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since we're entering the world of using more javascript in the  
>>>>>>> browser,
>>>>>>> why not have the add form on the top but hidden by default  with
>>>>>>> and Add
>>>>>>> button of some sort that would cause the form to be  shown? We
>>>>>>> could even
>>>>>>> make it fancy and popup over top of the list form  and have it
>>>>>>> go away after
>>>>>>> submission with an update of the list behind  it... without any
>>>>>>> page loads
>>>>>>> even.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  I would agree with that but personally I would prefer to see
>>>>>>> them on
>>>>>>>> completely different pages.  If I wanted to be able to refer
>>>>>>>> back to
>>>>>>>>  the
>>>>>>>> list while adding I would ctrl+click and then ctrl+tab to flick
>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>  and
>>>>>>>> forth, that's what makes tabbed browsers so handy.  One of the
>>>>>>>>  problems with
>>>>>>>> having them on the same page is that any errors after adding
>>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>> displayed before the list while the add form would be way down the
>>>>>>>>  bottom.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2008/5/23 David E Jones <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2) If a screen has a list and add form, what should be the
>>>>>>>>> order of
>>>>>>>>>  these
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> forms (I have seen in your recent work that add form should
>>>>>>>>>> come  on
>>>>>>>>>>> top
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> I completely
>>>>>>>>>>> agree with this).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I believe the form should be on top of the list. Otherwise,
>>>>>>>>>> as you
>>>>>>>>>>  add
>>>>>>>>>> items to the list, the form is scrolled off the bottom of the
>>>>>>>>>>  screen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The main question is: what is going to be used more? Will it
>>>>>>>>> be the
>>>>>>>>>  list or
>>>>>>>>> the add form?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If in most cases it will be the list, and if you have to
>>>>>>>>> scroll  down
>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>> time to see it... that's a pain.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>

[Andrew Zeneski-2]

I can agree with most except list results and the form should be  
rendered as one screen. This is to make usage easier when the user  
wants to change the search parameters. Having the form collapsed by  
default when there are results is good.


Andrew


On May 30, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Adrian Crum <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Getting back to this...
>
> Here are the layout best practices discussed so far:
>
> "In the case where items are being added to a list, it is preferable  
> to have the item data entry screen and the item list on separate  
> screens. If the two functions are incorporated into one screen, then  
> the item data entry screen should be above the item list. In  
> addition, the item data entry screen should be collapsible and  
> initially collapsed."
>
> "If a Find Item screen has a form for search options, the search  
> options form should be above the list of items found. The list of  
> items found should display all items initially - giving the user the  
> ability to narrow the results via the search options form."
>
> Can we agree on these?
>
> -Adrian
>
> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]>
>>> It looks nice but if we did that the user would lose the ability  
>>> to refer
>>> back to the list while entering data, I would prefer an expand/
>>> collapse form
>>> if we are going to keep them on the same page.
>> Yes I agree, but I really like the idea for the calendar (I can't  
>> propose it for lookups are they are too much to be loaded when  
>> lauching and the probability of use is far more low, but maybe one  
>> day, when machines will be more powerful :D
>> Jacques
>>> Regards
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> 2008/5/24 Anil Patel <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>> I think what David is suggesting is something like this
>>>> http://www.wildbit.com/demos/modalbox/
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 1:57 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I didn't say open a new window, I said either expand a hidden  
>>>>> area or
>>>>> popup using JavaScript within the window (ie over top of the  
>>>>> list behind
>>>>> it).
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> IMHO, we should avoid to overuse popping as opening a new window  
>>>>> is time
>>>>>> consuming (especially in Firefox). This is currently a major  
>>>>>> inconvenience
>>>>>> for Lookups and Calendar for instance
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since we're entering the world of using more javascript in  
>>>>>>> the  browser,
>>>>>>> why not have the add form on the top but hidden by default  
>>>>>>> with and Add
>>>>>>> button of some sort that would cause the form to be  shown? We  
>>>>>>> could even
>>>>>>> make it fancy and popup over top of the list form  and have it  
>>>>>>> go away after
>>>>>>> submission with an update of the list behind  it... without  
>>>>>>> any page loads
>>>>>>> even.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would agree with that but personally I would prefer to see  
>>>>>>> them on
>>>>>>>> completely different pages.  If I wanted to be able to refer  
>>>>>>>> back to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> list while adding I would ctrl+click and then ctrl+tab to  
>>>>>>>> flick back
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> forth, that's what makes tabbed browsers so handy.  One of the
>>>>>>>> problems with
>>>>>>>> having them on the same page is that any errors after adding  
>>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>> displayed before the list while the add form would be way  
>>>>>>>> down the
>>>>>>>> bottom.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2008/5/23 David E Jones <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2) If a screen has a list and add form, what should be the  
>>>>>>>>> order of
>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> forms (I have seen in your recent work that add form should  
>>>>>>>>>> come  on
>>>>>>>>>>> top
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> I completely
>>>>>>>>>>> agree with this).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I believe the form should be on top of the list. Otherwise,  
>>>>>>>>>> as you
>>>>>>>>>> add
>>>>>>>>>> items to the list, the form is scrolled off the bottom of the
>>>>>>>>>> screen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The main question is: what is going to be used more? Will it  
>>>>>>>>> be the
>>>>>>>>> list or
>>>>>>>>> the add form?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If in most cases it will be the list, and if you have to  
>>>>>>>>> scroll  down
>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>> time to see it... that's a pain.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>

[Jacques Le Roux]

I finally agree with most too (I mean I agree with Adrian's proposition and Andrew's here). Having them on 2 screen was a Scott's
proposition that I agreed with because of the flexibility given by modern browsers and their integrated tabs capabilities. But I can
imagine that some people, especially end users, would not like to use tabs or even a modern browser (though they should to use
both). Then it's obviously not easier to use...

Just one point : I'm not sure it's good to have forms collapsed by default when there are results. If we would really want to have
something like that, whe should at least have an indicator to let know the user that the list is not empty.

Just my opinion, and BTW having a consensual standard usage will be great. I agree with the idea that we really need to standardise
our ways of doing things, even if there are only a few places still needing it in OFBiz ERP (thanks to widgets for instance)

Jacques

From: "Andrew Zeneski" <[hidden email]>

>I can agree with most except list results and the form should be  rendered as one screen. This is to make usage easier when the
>user  wants to change the search parameters. Having the form collapsed by  default when there are results is good.
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
> On May 30, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Adrian Crum <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Getting back to this...
>>
>> Here are the layout best practices discussed so far:
>>
>> "In the case where items are being added to a list, it is preferable  to have the item data entry screen and the item list on
>> separate  screens. If the two functions are incorporated into one screen, then  the item data entry screen should be above the
>> item list. In  addition, the item data entry screen should be collapsible and  initially collapsed."
>>
>> "If a Find Item screen has a form for search options, the search  options form should be above the list of items found. The list
>> of  items found should display all items initially - giving the user the  ability to narrow the results via the search options
>> form."
>>
>> Can we agree on these?
>>
>> -Adrian
>>
>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]>
>>>> It looks nice but if we did that the user would lose the ability  to refer
>>>> back to the list while entering data, I would prefer an expand/ collapse form
>>>> if we are going to keep them on the same page.
>>> Yes I agree, but I really like the idea for the calendar (I can't  propose it for lookups are they are too much to be loaded
>>> when  lauching and the probability of use is far more low, but maybe one  day, when machines will be more powerful :D
>>> Jacques
>>>> Regards
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> 2008/5/24 Anil Patel <[hidden email]>:
>>>>
>>>>> I think what David is suggesting is something like this
>>>>> http://www.wildbit.com/demos/modalbox/
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 1:57 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't say open a new window, I said either expand a hidden  area or
>>>>>> popup using JavaScript within the window (ie over top of the  list behind
>>>>>> it).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IMHO, we should avoid to overuse popping as opening a new window  is time
>>>>>>> consuming (especially in Firefox). This is currently a major  inconvenience
>>>>>>> for Lookups and Calendar for instance
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since we're entering the world of using more javascript in  the  browser,
>>>>>>>> why not have the add form on the top but hidden by default   with and Add
>>>>>>>> button of some sort that would cause the form to be  shown? We  could even
>>>>>>>> make it fancy and popup over top of the list form  and have it  go away after
>>>>>>>> submission with an update of the list behind  it... without  any page loads
>>>>>>>> even.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would agree with that but personally I would prefer to see  them on
>>>>>>>>> completely different pages.  If I wanted to be able to refer  back to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> list while adding I would ctrl+click and then ctrl+tab to  flick back
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> forth, that's what makes tabbed browsers so handy.  One of the
>>>>>>>>> problems with
>>>>>>>>> having them on the same page is that any errors after adding  would be
>>>>>>>>> displayed before the list while the add form would be way  down the
>>>>>>>>> bottom.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2008/5/23 David E Jones <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2) If a screen has a list and add form, what should be the  order of
>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> forms (I have seen in your recent work that add form should  come  on
>>>>>>>>>>>> top
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> I completely
>>>>>>>>>>>> agree with this).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I believe the form should be on top of the list. Otherwise,  as you
>>>>>>>>>>> add
>>>>>>>>>>> items to the list, the form is scrolled off the bottom of the
>>>>>>>>>>> screen.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The main question is: what is going to be used more? Will it  be the
>>>>>>>>>> list or
>>>>>>>>>> the add form?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If in most cases it will be the list, and if you have to  scroll  down
>>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>>> time to see it... that's a pain.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>

[Daniel Martínez-4]

I prefer search form showed by default (which does not mean that it
cannot be collapsed by means of some button). It informs the user which
are the filters for the results he's viewing.

I.e. when using google, the search form is always visible. Maybe I
forgot which were the terms I was looking for. No worry, they are here
with my results ;)
--
Daniel Martínez

Andrew Zeneski escribió:

> I can agree with most except list results and the form should be
> rendered as one screen. This is to make usage easier when the user
> wants to change the search parameters. Having the form collapsed by
> default when there are results is good.
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
> On May 30, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Adrian Crum <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Getting back to this...
>>
>> Here are the layout best practices discussed so far:
>>
>> "In the case where items are being added to a list, it is preferable
>> to have the item data entry screen and the item list on separate
>> screens. If the two functions are incorporated into one screen, then
>> the item data entry screen should be above the item list. In
>> addition, the item data entry screen should be collapsible and
>> initially collapsed."
>>
>> "If a Find Item screen has a form for search options, the search
>> options form should be above the list of items found. The list of
>> items found should display all items initially - giving the user the
>> ability to narrow the results via the search options form."
>>
>> Can we agree on these?
>>
>> -Adrian
>>
>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]>
>>>> It looks nice but if we did that the user would lose the ability to
>>>> refer
>>>> back to the list while entering data, I would prefer an
>>>> expand/collapse form
>>>> if we are going to keep them on the same page.
>>> Yes I agree, but I really like the idea for the calendar (I can't
>>> propose it for lookups are they are too much to be loaded when
>>> lauching and the probability of use is far more low, but maybe one
>>> day, when machines will be more powerful :D
>>> Jacques
>>>> Regards
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> 2008/5/24 Anil Patel <[hidden email]>:
>>>>
>>>>> I think what David is suggesting is something like this
>>>>> http://www.wildbit.com/demos/modalbox/
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 1:57 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't say open a new window, I said either expand a hidden
>>>>>> area or
>>>>>> popup using JavaScript within the window (ie over top of the list
>>>>>> behind
>>>>>> it).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IMHO, we should avoid to overuse popping as opening a new window
>>>>>> is time
>>>>>>> consuming (especially in Firefox). This is currently a major
>>>>>>> inconvenience
>>>>>>> for Lookups and Calendar for instance
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since we're entering the world of using more javascript in the  
>>>>>>>> browser,
>>>>>>>> why not have the add form on the top but hidden by default  
>>>>>>>> with and Add
>>>>>>>> button of some sort that would cause the form to be  shown? We
>>>>>>>> could even
>>>>>>>> make it fancy and popup over top of the list form  and have it
>>>>>>>> go away after
>>>>>>>> submission with an update of the list behind  it... without any
>>>>>>>> page loads
>>>>>>>> even.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would agree with that but personally I would prefer to see
>>>>>>>> them on
>>>>>>>>> completely different pages.  If I wanted to be able to refer
>>>>>>>>> back to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> list while adding I would ctrl+click and then ctrl+tab to
>>>>>>>>> flick back
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> forth, that's what makes tabbed browsers so handy.  One of the
>>>>>>>>> problems with
>>>>>>>>> having them on the same page is that any errors after adding
>>>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>>> displayed before the list while the add form would be way down
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> bottom.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2008/5/23 David E Jones <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2) If a screen has a list and add form, what should be the
>>>>>>>>>> order of
>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> forms (I have seen in your recent work that add form should
>>>>>>>>>>> come  on
>>>>>>>>>>>> top
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> I completely
>>>>>>>>>>>> agree with this).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I believe the form should be on top of the list. Otherwise,
>>>>>>>>>>> as you
>>>>>>>>>>> add
>>>>>>>>>>> items to the list, the form is scrolled off the bottom of the
>>>>>>>>>>> screen.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The main question is: what is going to be used more? Will it
>>>>>>>>>> be the
>>>>>>>>>> list or
>>>>>>>>>> the add form?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If in most cases it will be the list, and if you have to
>>>>>>>>>> scroll  down
>>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>>> time to see it... that's a pain.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>

[David E Jones]

On May 31, 2008, at 10:03 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:

> Just one point : I'm not sure it's good to have forms collapsed by  
> default when there are results. If we would really want to have
> something like that, whe should at least have an indicator to let  
> know the user that the list is not empty.

The form that would be collapsed by default is the one with the search  
fields, not the results. The reason is that with a lot of search  
fields the results get pushed pretty far down the page and it is  
difficult to effectively review them.

On May 31, 2008, at 12:11 PM, Daniel Martínez wrote:

> I prefer search form showed by default (which does not mean that it  
> cannot be collapsed by means of some button). It informs the user  
> which are the filters for the results he's viewing.
>
> I.e. when using google, the search form is always visible. Maybe I  
> forgot which were the terms I was looking for. No worry, they are  
> here with my results ;)

Yes, but on google there is only one search field, and on many of  
these forms there can be over a dozen.

It might be interesting to have a super-small summary of the search  
constraints used for the results, like we do in the ecommerce product  
search.

-David

[Scott Gray]

I was for separating create forms and search/result forms, I was not
suggesting that we should separate the search forms themselves.

Regards
Scott

2008/6/1 Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]>:

> I finally agree with most too (I mean I agree with Adrian's proposition and
> Andrew's here). Having them on 2 screen was a Scott's
> proposition that I agreed with because of the flexibility given by modern
> browsers and their integrated tabs capabilities. But I can
> imagine that some people, especially end users, would not like to use tabs
> or even a modern browser (though they should to use
> both). Then it's obviously not easier to use...
>
> Just one point : I'm not sure it's good to have forms collapsed by default
> when there are results. If we would really want to have
> something like that, whe should at least have an indicator to let know the
> user that the list is not empty.
>
> Just my opinion, and BTW having a consensual standard usage will be great.
> I agree with the idea that we really need to standardise our ways of doing
> things, even if there are only a few places still needing it in OFBiz ERP
> (thanks to widgets for instance)
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Andrew Zeneski" <[hidden email]>
>
>  I can agree with most except list results and the form should be  rendered
>> as one screen. This is to make usage easier when the
>> user  wants to change the search parameters. Having the form collapsed by
>>  default when there are results is good.
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>> On May 30, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Adrian Crum <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  Getting back to this...
>>>
>>> Here are the layout best practices discussed so far:
>>>
>>> "In the case where items are being added to a list, it is preferable  to
>>> have the item data entry screen and the item list on
>>> separate  screens. If the two functions are incorporated into one screen,
>>> then  the item data entry screen should be above the
>>> item list. In  addition, the item data entry screen should be collapsible
>>> and  initially collapsed."
>>>
>>> "If a Find Item screen has a form for search options, the search  options
>>> form should be above the list of items found. The list
>>> of  items found should display all items initially - giving the user the
>>>  ability to narrow the results via the search options
>>> form."
>>>
>>> Can we agree on these?
>>>
>>> -Adrian
>>>
>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>>> It looks nice but if we did that the user would lose the ability  to
>>>>> refer
>>>>> back to the list while entering data, I would prefer an expand/
>>>>> collapse form
>>>>> if we are going to keep them on the same page.
>>>>>
>>>> Yes I agree, but I really like the idea for the calendar (I can't
>>>>  propose it for lookups are they are too much to be loaded
>>>> when  lauching and the probability of use is far more low, but maybe one
>>>>  day, when machines will be more powerful :D
>>>> Jacques
>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Scott
>>>>>
>>>>> 2008/5/24 Anil Patel <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>>  I think what David is suggesting is something like this
>>>>>> http://www.wildbit.com/demos/modalbox/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 1:57 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I didn't say open a new window, I said either expand a hidden  area
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> popup using JavaScript within the window (ie over top of the  list
>>>>>>> behind
>>>>>>> it).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMHO, we should avoid to overuse popping as opening a new window  is
>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> consuming (especially in Firefox). This is currently a major
>>>>>>>>  inconvenience
>>>>>>>> for Lookups and Calendar for instance
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Since we're entering the world of using more javascript in  the
>>>>>>>>>  browser,
>>>>>>>>> why not have the add form on the top but hidden by default   with
>>>>>>>>> and Add
>>>>>>>>> button of some sort that would cause the form to be  shown? We
>>>>>>>>>  could even
>>>>>>>>> make it fancy and popup over top of the list form  and have it  go
>>>>>>>>> away after
>>>>>>>>> submission with an update of the list behind  it... without  any
>>>>>>>>> page loads
>>>>>>>>> even.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would agree with that but personally I would prefer to see  them
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> completely different pages.  If I wanted to be able to refer  back
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> list while adding I would ctrl+click and then ctrl+tab to  flick
>>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> forth, that's what makes tabbed browsers so handy.  One of the
>>>>>>>>>> problems with
>>>>>>>>>> having them on the same page is that any errors after adding
>>>>>>>>>>  would be
>>>>>>>>>> displayed before the list while the add form would be way  down
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> bottom.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2008/5/23 David E Jones <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  On May 22, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2) If a screen has a list and add form, what should be the  order
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  forms (I have seen in your recent work that add form should
>>>>>>>>>>>>  come  on
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> top
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I completely
>>>>>>>>>>>>> agree with this).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  I believe the form should be on top of the list. Otherwise,
>>>>>>>>>>>>  as you
>>>>>>>>>>>> add
>>>>>>>>>>>> items to the list, the form is scrolled off the bottom of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> screen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  The main question is: what is going to be used more? Will it
>>>>>>>>>>>  be the
>>>>>>>>>>> list or
>>>>>>>>>>> the add form?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If in most cases it will be the list, and if you have to  scroll
>>>>>>>>>>>  down
>>>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>>>> time to see it... that's a pain.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>

[Adrian Crum-2]

I know the two subjects were mixed in some replies. I understand what you mean though. ;-)

-Adrian

Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: I was for separating create forms and search/result forms, I was not
suggesting that we should separate the search forms themselves.

Regards
Scott

2008/6/1 Jacques Le Roux :

> I finally agree with most too (I mean I agree with Adrian's proposition and
> Andrew's here). Having them on 2 screen was a Scott's
> proposition that I agreed with because of the flexibility given by modern
> browsers and their integrated tabs capabilities. But I can
> imagine that some people, especially end users, would not like to use tabs
> or even a modern browser (though they should to use
> both). Then it's obviously not easier to use...
>
> Just one point : I'm not sure it's good to have forms collapsed by default
> when there are results. If we would really want to have
> something like that, whe should at least have an indicator to let know the
> user that the list is not empty.
>
> Just my opinion, and BTW having a consensual standard usage will be great.
> I agree with the idea that we really need to standardise our ways of doing
> things, even if there are only a few places still needing it in OFBiz ERP
> (thanks to widgets for instance)
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Andrew Zeneski"
>
>  I can agree with most except list results and the form should be  rendered
>> as one screen. This is to make usage easier when the
>> user  wants to change the search parameters. Having the form collapsed by
>>  default when there are results is good.
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>> On May 30, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Adrian Crum  wrote:
>>
>>  Getting back to this...
>>>
>>> Here are the layout best practices discussed so far:
>>>
>>> "In the case where items are being added to a list, it is preferable  to
>>> have the item data entry screen and the item list on
>>> separate  screens. If the two functions are incorporated into one screen,
>>> then  the item data entry screen should be above the
>>> item list. In  addition, the item data entry screen should be collapsible
>>> and  initially collapsed."
>>>
>>> "If a Find Item screen has a form for search options, the search  options
>>> form should be above the list of items found. The list
>>> of  items found should display all items initially - giving the user the
>>>  ability to narrow the results via the search options
>>> form."
>>>
>>> Can we agree on these?
>>>
>>> -Adrian
>>>
>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: "Scott Gray"
>>>>
>>>>> It looks nice but if we did that the user would lose the ability  to
>>>>> refer
>>>>> back to the list while entering data, I would prefer an expand/
>>>>> collapse form
>>>>> if we are going to keep them on the same page.
>>>>>
>>>> Yes I agree, but I really like the idea for the calendar (I can't
>>>>  propose it for lookups are they are too much to be loaded
>>>> when  lauching and the probability of use is far more low, but maybe one
>>>>  day, when machines will be more powerful :D
>>>> Jacques
>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Scott
>>>>>
>>>>> 2008/5/24 Anil Patel :
>>>>>
>>>>>  I think what David is suggesting is something like this
>>>>>> http://www.wildbit.com/demos/modalbox/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 1:57 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I didn't say open a new window, I said either expand a hidden  area
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> popup using JavaScript within the window (ie over top of the  list
>>>>>>> behind
>>>>>>> it).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMHO, we should avoid to overuse popping as opening a new window  is
>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> consuming (especially in Firefox). This is currently a major
>>>>>>>>  inconvenience
>>>>>>>> for Lookups and Calendar for instance
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: "David E Jones"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Since we're entering the world of using more javascript in  the
>>>>>>>>>  browser,
>>>>>>>>> why not have the add form on the top but hidden by default   with
>>>>>>>>> and Add
>>>>>>>>> button of some sort that would cause the form to be  shown? We
>>>>>>>>>  could even
>>>>>>>>> make it fancy and popup over top of the list form  and have it  go
>>>>>>>>> away after
>>>>>>>>> submission with an update of the list behind  it... without  any
>>>>>>>>> page loads
>>>>>>>>> even.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would agree with that but personally I would prefer to see  them
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> completely different pages.  If I wanted to be able to refer  back
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> list while adding I would ctrl+click and then ctrl+tab to  flick
>>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> forth, that's what makes tabbed browsers so handy.  One of the
>>>>>>>>>> problems with
>>>>>>>>>> having them on the same page is that any errors after adding
>>>>>>>>>>  would be
>>>>>>>>>> displayed before the list while the add form would be way  down
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> bottom.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2008/5/23 David E Jones :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  On May 22, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2) If a screen has a list and add form, what should be the  order
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  forms (I have seen in your recent work that add form should
>>>>>>>>>>>>  come  on
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> top
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I completely
>>>>>>>>>>>>> agree with this).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  I believe the form should be on top of the list. Otherwise,
>>>>>>>>>>>>  as you
>>>>>>>>>>>> add
>>>>>>>>>>>> items to the list, the form is scrolled off the bottom of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> screen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  The main question is: what is going to be used more? Will it
>>>>>>>>>>>  be the
>>>>>>>>>>> list or
>>>>>>>>>>> the add form?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If in most cases it will be the list, and if you have to  scroll
>>>>>>>>>>>  down
>>>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>>>> time to see it... that's a pain.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>

       

[Bruno Busco]

I agree with both points summarized by Adrian.

Since we were also speaking about the screenlet header and what control
should be visible there, I would like to remind
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-1750 where there was a proposal
of having a little icon on the screenlet title bar offering contextual help.
Since the screenlet is supposed to be used to split the page content into
several conceptual aggregated information may be these information could be
linked as a whole to a single help page.
Having a best practice to put the help link would be fine.

Another point that I would bring into this discussion (hoping not being OT)
is the possibility for the user to easily use the page with the keyboard
only and still be able to switch between search fields panel and the data
table to refine the search.
I have noticed that many end-users that use non-web based application go
very fast in data entry with the keyboard only and this, in my opinion,
should be considered in the OFBiz interface desing.

Thanks,
-Bruno

2008/6/1 Adrian Crum <[hidden email]>:

> I know the two subjects were mixed in some replies. I understand what you
> mean though. ;-)
>
> -Adrian
>
> Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: I was for separating create forms
> and search/result forms, I was not
> suggesting that we should separate the search forms themselves.
>
> Regards
> Scott
>
> 2008/6/1 Jacques Le Roux :
>
> > I finally agree with most too (I mean I agree with Adrian's proposition
> and
> > Andrew's here). Having them on 2 screen was a Scott's
> > proposition that I agreed with because of the flexibility given by modern
> > browsers and their integrated tabs capabilities. But I can
> > imagine that some people, especially end users, would not like to use
> tabs
> > or even a modern browser (though they should to use
> > both). Then it's obviously not easier to use...
> >
> > Just one point : I'm not sure it's good to have forms collapsed by
> default
> > when there are results. If we would really want to have
> > something like that, whe should at least have an indicator to let know
> the
> > user that the list is not empty.
> >
> > Just my opinion, and BTW having a consensual standard usage will be
> great.
> > I agree with the idea that we really need to standardise our ways of
> doing
> > things, even if there are only a few places still needing it in OFBiz ERP
> > (thanks to widgets for instance)
> >
> > Jacques
> >
> > From: "Andrew Zeneski"
> >
> >  I can agree with most except list results and the form should be
>  rendered
> >> as one screen. This is to make usage easier when the
> >> user  wants to change the search parameters. Having the form collapsed
> by
> >>  default when there are results is good.
> >>
> >>
> >> Andrew
> >>
> >>
> >> On May 30, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Adrian Crum  wrote:
> >>
> >>  Getting back to this...
> >>>
> >>> Here are the layout best practices discussed so far:
> >>>
> >>> "In the case where items are being added to a list, it is preferable
>  to
> >>> have the item data entry screen and the item list on
> >>> separate  screens. If the two functions are incorporated into one
> screen,
> >>> then  the item data entry screen should be above the
> >>> item list. In  addition, the item data entry screen should be
> collapsible
> >>> and  initially collapsed."
> >>>
> >>> "If a Find Item screen has a form for search options, the search
>  options
> >>> form should be above the list of items found. The list
> >>> of  items found should display all items initially - giving the user
> the
> >>>  ability to narrow the results via the search options
> >>> form."
> >>>
> >>> Can we agree on these?
> >>>
> >>> -Adrian
> >>>
> >>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> From: "Scott Gray"
> >>>>
> >>>>> It looks nice but if we did that the user would lose the ability  to
> >>>>> refer
> >>>>> back to the list while entering data, I would prefer an expand/
> >>>>> collapse form
> >>>>> if we are going to keep them on the same page.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Yes I agree, but I really like the idea for the calendar (I can't
> >>>>  propose it for lookups are they are too much to be loaded
> >>>> when  lauching and the probability of use is far more low, but maybe
> one
> >>>>  day, when machines will be more powerful :D
> >>>> Jacques
> >>>>
> >>>>> Regards
> >>>>> Scott
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2008/5/24 Anil Patel :
> >>>>>
> >>>>>  I think what David is suggesting is something like this
> >>>>>> http://www.wildbit.com/demos/modalbox/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>> Anil Patel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 1:57 PM, David E Jones wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  I didn't say open a new window, I said either expand a hidden  area
> >>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>> popup using JavaScript within the window (ie over top of the  list
> >>>>>>> behind
> >>>>>>> it).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -David
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> IMHO, we should avoid to overuse popping as opening a new window
>  is
> >>>>>>> time
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> consuming (especially in Firefox). This is currently a major
> >>>>>>>>  inconvenience
> >>>>>>>> for Lookups and Calendar for instance
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Jacques
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> From: "David E Jones"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Since we're entering the world of using more javascript in  the
> >>>>>>>>>  browser,
> >>>>>>>>> why not have the add form on the top but hidden by default   with
> >>>>>>>>> and Add
> >>>>>>>>> button of some sort that would cause the form to be  shown? We
> >>>>>>>>>  could even
> >>>>>>>>> make it fancy and popup over top of the list form  and have it
>  go
> >>>>>>>>> away after
> >>>>>>>>> submission with an update of the list behind  it... without  any
> >>>>>>>>> page loads
> >>>>>>>>> even.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> -David
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I would agree with that but personally I would prefer to see
>  them
> >>>>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> completely different pages.  If I wanted to be able to refer
>  back
> >>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> list while adding I would ctrl+click and then ctrl+tab to  flick
> >>>>>>>>>> back
> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> forth, that's what makes tabbed browsers so handy.  One of the
> >>>>>>>>>> problems with
> >>>>>>>>>> having them on the same page is that any errors after adding
> >>>>>>>>>>  would be
> >>>>>>>>>> displayed before the list while the add form would be way  down
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> bottom.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>>>>> Scott
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> 2008/5/23 David E Jones :
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>  On May 22, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 2) If a screen has a list and add form, what should be the
>  order
> >>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>> these
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>  forms (I have seen in your recent work that add form should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>  come  on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> top
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I completely
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> agree with this).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>  I believe the form should be on top of the list. Otherwise,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>  as you
> >>>>>>>>>>>> add
> >>>>>>>>>>>> items to the list, the form is scrolled off the bottom of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> screen.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>  The main question is: what is going to be used more? Will it
> >>>>>>>>>>>  be the
> >>>>>>>>>>> list or
> >>>>>>>>>>> the add form?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> If in most cases it will be the list, and if you have to
>  scroll
> >>>>>>>>>>>  down
> >>>>>>>>>>> every
> >>>>>>>>>>> time to see it... that's a pain.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> -David
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

From: "Bruno Busco" <[hidden email]>
[...]
> Another point that I would bring into this discussion (hoping not being OT)
> is the possibility for the user to easily use the page with the keyboard
> only and still be able to switch between search fields panel and the data
> table to refine the search.
> I have noticed that many end-users that use non-web based application go
> very fast in data entry with the keyboard only and this, in my opinion,
> should be considered in the OFBiz interface desing.

Yes, I agree this is a very pertinent remark (we could even think more about the 15% of the population which is more or less
disabled, and sadly underemployed from this cause. In France for instance there are laws for decades about that but still a lot of
enterprises which prefer to pay taxes than to employ handicapped persons...)

Jacques

> Thanks,
> -Bruno
>
> 2008/6/1 Adrian Crum <[hidden email]>:
>
>> I know the two subjects were mixed in some replies. I understand what you
>> mean though. ;-)
>>
>> -Adrian
>>
>> Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: I was for separating create forms
>> and search/result forms, I was not
>> suggesting that we should separate the search forms themselves.
>>
>> Regards
>> Scott
>>
>> 2008/6/1 Jacques Le Roux :
>>
>> > I finally agree with most too (I mean I agree with Adrian's proposition
>> and
>> > Andrew's here). Having them on 2 screen was a Scott's
>> > proposition that I agreed with because of the flexibility given by modern
>> > browsers and their integrated tabs capabilities. But I can
>> > imagine that some people, especially end users, would not like to use
>> tabs
>> > or even a modern browser (though they should to use
>> > both). Then it's obviously not easier to use...
>> >
>> > Just one point : I'm not sure it's good to have forms collapsed by
>> default
>> > when there are results. If we would really want to have
>> > something like that, whe should at least have an indicator to let know
>> the
>> > user that the list is not empty.
>> >
>> > Just my opinion, and BTW having a consensual standard usage will be
>> great.
>> > I agree with the idea that we really need to standardise our ways of
>> doing
>> > things, even if there are only a few places still needing it in OFBiz ERP
>> > (thanks to widgets for instance)
>> >
>> > Jacques
>> >
>> > From: "Andrew Zeneski"
>> >
>> >  I can agree with most except list results and the form should be
>>  rendered
>> >> as one screen. This is to make usage easier when the
>> >> user  wants to change the search parameters. Having the form collapsed
>> by
>> >>  default when there are results is good.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Andrew
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On May 30, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Adrian Crum  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>  Getting back to this...
>> >>>
>> >>> Here are the layout best practices discussed so far:
>> >>>
>> >>> "In the case where items are being added to a list, it is preferable
>>  to
>> >>> have the item data entry screen and the item list on
>> >>> separate  screens. If the two functions are incorporated into one
>> screen,
>> >>> then  the item data entry screen should be above the
>> >>> item list. In  addition, the item data entry screen should be
>> collapsible
>> >>> and  initially collapsed."
>> >>>
>> >>> "If a Find Item screen has a form for search options, the search
>>  options
>> >>> form should be above the list of items found. The list
>> >>> of  items found should display all items initially - giving the user
>> the
>> >>>  ability to narrow the results via the search options
>> >>> form."
>> >>>
>> >>> Can we agree on these?
>> >>>
>> >>> -Adrian
>> >>>
>> >>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> From: "Scott Gray"
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> It looks nice but if we did that the user would lose the ability  to
>> >>>>> refer
>> >>>>> back to the list while entering data, I would prefer an expand/
>> >>>>> collapse form
>> >>>>> if we are going to keep them on the same page.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> Yes I agree, but I really like the idea for the calendar (I can't
>> >>>>  propose it for lookups are they are too much to be loaded
>> >>>> when  lauching and the probability of use is far more low, but maybe
>> one
>> >>>>  day, when machines will be more powerful :D
>> >>>> Jacques
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Regards
>> >>>>> Scott
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 2008/5/24 Anil Patel :
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>  I think what David is suggesting is something like this
>> >>>>>> http://www.wildbit.com/demos/modalbox/
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Regards
>> >>>>>> Anil Patel
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 1:57 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>  I didn't say open a new window, I said either expand a hidden  area
>> >>>>>>> or
>> >>>>>>> popup using JavaScript within the window (ie over top of the  list
>> >>>>>>> behind
>> >>>>>>> it).
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> -David
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> IMHO, we should avoid to overuse popping as opening a new window
>>  is
>> >>>>>>> time
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> consuming (especially in Firefox). This is currently a major
>> >>>>>>>>  inconvenience
>> >>>>>>>> for Lookups and Calendar for instance
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Jacques
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> From: "David E Jones"
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Since we're entering the world of using more javascript in  the
>> >>>>>>>>>  browser,
>> >>>>>>>>> why not have the add form on the top but hidden by default   with
>> >>>>>>>>> and Add
>> >>>>>>>>> button of some sort that would cause the form to be  shown? We
>> >>>>>>>>>  could even
>> >>>>>>>>> make it fancy and popup over top of the list form  and have it
>>  go
>> >>>>>>>>> away after
>> >>>>>>>>> submission with an update of the list behind  it... without  any
>> >>>>>>>>> page loads
>> >>>>>>>>> even.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> -David
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I would agree with that but personally I would prefer to see
>>  them
>> >>>>>>>>> on
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> completely different pages.  If I wanted to be able to refer
>>  back
>> >>>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> list while adding I would ctrl+click and then ctrl+tab to  flick
>> >>>>>>>>>> back
>> >>>>>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>> forth, that's what makes tabbed browsers so handy.  One of the
>> >>>>>>>>>> problems with
>> >>>>>>>>>> having them on the same page is that any errors after adding
>> >>>>>>>>>>  would be
>> >>>>>>>>>> displayed before the list while the add form would be way  down
>> >>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> bottom.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards
>> >>>>>>>>>> Scott
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> 2008/5/23 David E Jones :
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>  On May 22, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2) If a screen has a list and add form, what should be the
>>  order
>> >>>>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>>> these
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>  forms (I have seen in your recent work that add form should
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>  come  on
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> top
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I completely
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> agree with this).
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>  I believe the form should be on top of the list. Otherwise,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>  as you
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> add
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> items to the list, the form is scrolled off the bottom of the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> screen.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>  The main question is: what is going to be used more? Will it
>> >>>>>>>>>>>  be the
>> >>>>>>>>>>> list or
>> >>>>>>>>>>> the add form?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> If in most cases it will be the list, and if you have to
>>  scroll
>> >>>>>>>>>>>  down
>> >>>>>>>>>>> every
>> >>>>>>>>>>> time to see it... that's a pain.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> -David
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

From: "Jacques Le Roux" <[hidden email]>

> From: "Bruno Busco" <[hidden email]>
> [...]
>> Another point that I would bring into this discussion (hoping not being OT)
>> is the possibility for the user to easily use the page with the keyboard
>> only and still be able to switch between search fields panel and the data
>> table to refine the search.
>> I have noticed that many end-users that use non-web based application go
>> very fast in data entry with the keyboard only and this, in my opinion,
>> should be considered in the OFBiz interface desing.
>
> Yes, I agree this is a very pertinent remark (we could even think more about the 15% of the population which is more or less
> disabled, and sadly underemployed from this cause. In France for instance there are laws for decades about that but still a lot of
> enterprises which prefer to pay taxes than to employ handicapped persons...)

Mmm... That saids, I though one hour ago that it's should be a huge task for an ERP UI... Then I dowloaded Webbie
http://www.webbie.org.uk/ and NVDA  http://www.nvda-project.org/download.html (awesome for a free tool). Sorry these softwares are
designed for Windows but I guess the same exists on Linux

And you know what ? I think OFBIz is not doing too bad. Of course we could do better by adding means to skip some parts of the
screens, but it's really not too bad.

 Ok, I let my screen open and I did not close my eyes. But I'm pretty sure OFBiz is not so hard to use for a blind person with some
experience with computer and web tools designed for blinds (and of course some guidances for OFBiz at start too, I remember now my
1st steps in OFBIz). Good news isn'it ?

Of course this is seen from a non blind person and I can't guarantee it's realistic... Maybe in some decades, centuries ?

Jacques

> Jacques
>
>> Thanks,
>> -Bruno
>>
>> 2008/6/1 Adrian Crum <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> I know the two subjects were mixed in some replies. I understand what you
>>> mean though. ;-)
>>>
>>> -Adrian
>>>
>>> Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: I was for separating create forms
>>> and search/result forms, I was not
>>> suggesting that we should separate the search forms themselves.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> 2008/6/1 Jacques Le Roux :
>>>
>>> > I finally agree with most too (I mean I agree with Adrian's proposition
>>> and
>>> > Andrew's here). Having them on 2 screen was a Scott's
>>> > proposition that I agreed with because of the flexibility given by modern
>>> > browsers and their integrated tabs capabilities. But I can
>>> > imagine that some people, especially end users, would not like to use
>>> tabs
>>> > or even a modern browser (though they should to use
>>> > both). Then it's obviously not easier to use...
>>> >
>>> > Just one point : I'm not sure it's good to have forms collapsed by
>>> default
>>> > when there are results. If we would really want to have
>>> > something like that, whe should at least have an indicator to let know
>>> the
>>> > user that the list is not empty.
>>> >
>>> > Just my opinion, and BTW having a consensual standard usage will be
>>> great.
>>> > I agree with the idea that we really need to standardise our ways of
>>> doing
>>> > things, even if there are only a few places still needing it in OFBiz ERP
>>> > (thanks to widgets for instance)
>>> >
>>> > Jacques
>>> >
>>> > From: "Andrew Zeneski"
>>> >
>>> >  I can agree with most except list results and the form should be
>>>  rendered
>>> >> as one screen. This is to make usage easier when the
>>> >> user  wants to change the search parameters. Having the form collapsed
>>> by
>>> >>  default when there are results is good.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Andrew
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On May 30, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Adrian Crum  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>  Getting back to this...
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Here are the layout best practices discussed so far:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "In the case where items are being added to a list, it is preferable
>>>  to
>>> >>> have the item data entry screen and the item list on
>>> >>> separate  screens. If the two functions are incorporated into one
>>> screen,
>>> >>> then  the item data entry screen should be above the
>>> >>> item list. In  addition, the item data entry screen should be
>>> collapsible
>>> >>> and  initially collapsed."
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "If a Find Item screen has a form for search options, the search
>>>  options
>>> >>> form should be above the list of items found. The list
>>> >>> of  items found should display all items initially - giving the user
>>> the
>>> >>>  ability to narrow the results via the search options
>>> >>> form."
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Can we agree on these?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -Adrian
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> From: "Scott Gray"
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> It looks nice but if we did that the user would lose the ability  to
>>> >>>>> refer
>>> >>>>> back to the list while entering data, I would prefer an expand/
>>> >>>>> collapse form
>>> >>>>> if we are going to keep them on the same page.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>> Yes I agree, but I really like the idea for the calendar (I can't
>>> >>>>  propose it for lookups are they are too much to be loaded
>>> >>>> when  lauching and the probability of use is far more low, but maybe
>>> one
>>> >>>>  day, when machines will be more powerful :D
>>> >>>> Jacques
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> Regards
>>> >>>>> Scott
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> 2008/5/24 Anil Patel :
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>  I think what David is suggesting is something like this
>>> >>>>>> http://www.wildbit.com/demos/modalbox/
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Regards
>>> >>>>>> Anil Patel
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 1:57 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>  I didn't say open a new window, I said either expand a hidden  area
>>> >>>>>>> or
>>> >>>>>>> popup using JavaScript within the window (ie over top of the  list
>>> >>>>>>> behind
>>> >>>>>>> it).
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> -David
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> IMHO, we should avoid to overuse popping as opening a new window
>>>  is
>>> >>>>>>> time
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> consuming (especially in Firefox). This is currently a major
>>> >>>>>>>>  inconvenience
>>> >>>>>>>> for Lookups and Calendar for instance
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> Jacques
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> From: "David E Jones"
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Since we're entering the world of using more javascript in  the
>>> >>>>>>>>>  browser,
>>> >>>>>>>>> why not have the add form on the top but hidden by default   with
>>> >>>>>>>>> and Add
>>> >>>>>>>>> button of some sort that would cause the form to be  shown? We
>>> >>>>>>>>>  could even
>>> >>>>>>>>> make it fancy and popup over top of the list form  and have it
>>>  go
>>> >>>>>>>>> away after
>>> >>>>>>>>> submission with an update of the list behind  it... without  any
>>> >>>>>>>>> page loads
>>> >>>>>>>>> even.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> -David
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> I would agree with that but personally I would prefer to see
>>>  them
>>> >>>>>>>>> on
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> completely different pages.  If I wanted to be able to refer
>>>  back
>>> >>>>>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>>>>>> list while adding I would ctrl+click and then ctrl+tab to  flick
>>> >>>>>>>>>> back
>>> >>>>>>>>>> and
>>> >>>>>>>>>> forth, that's what makes tabbed browsers so handy.  One of the
>>> >>>>>>>>>> problems with
>>> >>>>>>>>>> having them on the same page is that any errors after adding
>>> >>>>>>>>>>  would be
>>> >>>>>>>>>> displayed before the list while the add form would be way  down
>>> >>>>>>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>>>>>> bottom.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2008/5/23 David E Jones :
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>  On May 22, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2) If a screen has a list and add form, what should be the
>>>  order
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> these
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>  forms (I have seen in your recent work that add form should
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>  come  on
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> top
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I completely
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> agree with this).
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>  I believe the form should be on top of the list. Otherwise,
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>  as you
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> add
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> items to the list, the form is scrolled off the bottom of the
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> screen.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>  The main question is: what is going to be used more? Will it
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>  be the
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> list or
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the add form?
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If in most cases it will be the list, and if you have to
>>>  scroll
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>  down
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> every
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> time to see it... that's a pain.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -David
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

[Adrian Crum-2]

In the UI work I've done, I have tried to keep accessibility an important priority. One of the things I like about having a scalable UI is that sight impaired people can crank up their browser's default font to see it better. The simplified markup is great for screen readers. Keeping OFBiz accessible to the blind is one reason why I want the screen widgets to output plain HTML in addition to all the new, fancy Ajax stuff.

I agree we're doing pretty well. The only thing we're missing is a "Skip Menus" button at the top of the screen.

-Adrian

Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> wrote: From: "Jacques Le Roux"
> From: "Bruno Busco"

> [...]
>> Another point that I would bring into this discussion (hoping not being OT)
>> is the possibility for the user to easily use the page with the keyboard
>> only and still be able to switch between search fields panel and the data
>> table to refine the search.
>> I have noticed that many end-users that use non-web based application go
>> very fast in data entry with the keyboard only and this, in my opinion,
>> should be considered in the OFBiz interface desing.
>
> Yes, I agree this is a very pertinent remark (we could even think more about the 15% of the population which is more or less
> disabled, and sadly underemployed from this cause. In France for instance there are laws for decades about that but still a lot of
> enterprises which prefer to pay taxes than to employ handicapped persons...)

Mmm... That saids, I though one hour ago that it's should be a huge task for an ERP UI... Then I dowloaded Webbie
http://www.webbie.org.uk/ and NVDA  http://www.nvda-project.org/download.html (awesome for a free tool). Sorry these softwares are
designed for Windows but I guess the same exists on Linux

And you know what ? I think OFBIz is not doing too bad. Of course we could do better by adding means to skip some parts of the
screens, but it's really not too bad.

 Ok, I let my screen open and I did not close my eyes. But I'm pretty sure OFBiz is not so hard to use for a blind person with some
experience with computer and web tools designed for blinds (and of course some guidances for OFBiz at start too, I remember now my
1st steps in OFBIz). Good news isn'it ?

Of course this is seen from a non blind person and I can't guarantee it's realistic... Maybe in some decades, centuries ?

Jacques

> Jacques
>
>> Thanks,
>> -Bruno
>>
>> 2008/6/1 Adrian Crum :
>>
>>> I know the two subjects were mixed in some replies. I understand what you
>>> mean though. ;-)
>>>
>>> -Adrian
>>>
>>> Scott Gray  wrote: I was for separating create forms
>>> and search/result forms, I was not
>>> suggesting that we should separate the search forms themselves.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> 2008/6/1 Jacques Le Roux :
>>>
>>> > I finally agree with most too (I mean I agree with Adrian's proposition
>>> and
>>> > Andrew's here). Having them on 2 screen was a Scott's
>>> > proposition that I agreed with because of the flexibility given by modern
>>> > browsers and their integrated tabs capabilities. But I can
>>> > imagine that some people, especially end users, would not like to use
>>> tabs
>>> > or even a modern browser (though they should to use
>>> > both). Then it's obviously not easier to use...
>>> >
>>> > Just one point : I'm not sure it's good to have forms collapsed by
>>> default
>>> > when there are results. If we would really want to have
>>> > something like that, whe should at least have an indicator to let know
>>> the
>>> > user that the list is not empty.
>>> >
>>> > Just my opinion, and BTW having a consensual standard usage will be
>>> great.
>>> > I agree with the idea that we really need to standardise our ways of
>>> doing
>>> > things, even if there are only a few places still needing it in OFBiz ERP
>>> > (thanks to widgets for instance)
>>> >
>>> > Jacques
>>> >
>>> > From: "Andrew Zeneski"
>>> >
>>> >  I can agree with most except list results and the form should be
>>>  rendered
>>> >> as one screen. This is to make usage easier when the
>>> >> user  wants to change the search parameters. Having the form collapsed
>>> by
>>> >>  default when there are results is good.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Andrew
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On May 30, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Adrian Crum  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>  Getting back to this...
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Here are the layout best practices discussed so far:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "In the case where items are being added to a list, it is preferable
>>>  to
>>> >>> have the item data entry screen and the item list on
>>> >>> separate  screens. If the two functions are incorporated into one
>>> screen,
>>> >>> then  the item data entry screen should be above the
>>> >>> item list. In  addition, the item data entry screen should be
>>> collapsible
>>> >>> and  initially collapsed."
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "If a Find Item screen has a form for search options, the search
>>>  options
>>> >>> form should be above the list of items found. The list
>>> >>> of  items found should display all items initially - giving the user
>>> the
>>> >>>  ability to narrow the results via the search options
>>> >>> form."
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Can we agree on these?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -Adrian
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> From: "Scott Gray"
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> It looks nice but if we did that the user would lose the ability  to
>>> >>>>> refer
>>> >>>>> back to the list while entering data, I would prefer an expand/
>>> >>>>> collapse form
>>> >>>>> if we are going to keep them on the same page.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>> Yes I agree, but I really like the idea for the calendar (I can't
>>> >>>>  propose it for lookups are they are too much to be loaded
>>> >>>> when  lauching and the probability of use is far more low, but maybe
>>> one
>>> >>>>  day, when machines will be more powerful :D
>>> >>>> Jacques
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> Regards
>>> >>>>> Scott
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> 2008/5/24 Anil Patel :
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>  I think what David is suggesting is something like this
>>> >>>>>> http://www.wildbit.com/demos/modalbox/
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Regards
>>> >>>>>> Anil Patel
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 1:57 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>  I didn't say open a new window, I said either expand a hidden  area
>>> >>>>>>> or
>>> >>>>>>> popup using JavaScript within the window (ie over top of the  list
>>> >>>>>>> behind
>>> >>>>>>> it).
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> -David
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> On May 23, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> IMHO, we should avoid to overuse popping as opening a new window
>>>  is
>>> >>>>>>> time
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> consuming (especially in Firefox). This is currently a major
>>> >>>>>>>>  inconvenience
>>> >>>>>>>> for Lookups and Calendar for instance
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> Jacques
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> From: "David E Jones"
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Since we're entering the world of using more javascript in  the
>>> >>>>>>>>>  browser,
>>> >>>>>>>>> why not have the add form on the top but hidden by default   with
>>> >>>>>>>>> and Add
>>> >>>>>>>>> button of some sort that would cause the form to be  shown? We
>>> >>>>>>>>>  could even
>>> >>>>>>>>> make it fancy and popup over top of the list form  and have it
>>>  go
>>> >>>>>>>>> away after
>>> >>>>>>>>> submission with an update of the list behind  it... without  any
>>> >>>>>>>>> page loads
>>> >>>>>>>>> even.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> -David
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> On May 22, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> I would agree with that but personally I would prefer to see
>>>  them
>>> >>>>>>>>> on
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> completely different pages.  If I wanted to be able to refer
>>>  back
>>> >>>>>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>>>>>> list while adding I would ctrl+click and then ctrl+tab to  flick
>>> >>>>>>>>>> back
>>> >>>>>>>>>> and
>>> >>>>>>>>>> forth, that's what makes tabbed browsers so handy.  One of the
>>> >>>>>>>>>> problems with
>>> >>>>>>>>>> having them on the same page is that any errors after adding
>>> >>>>>>>>>>  would be
>>> >>>>>>>>>> displayed before the list while the add form would be way  down
>>> >>>>>>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>>>>>> bottom.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2008/5/23 David E Jones :
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>  On May 22, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2) If a screen has a list and add form, what should be the
>>>  order
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> these
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>  forms (I have seen in your recent work that add form should
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>  come  on
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> top
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I completely
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> agree with this).
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>  I believe the form should be on top of the list. Otherwise,
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>  as you
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> add
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> items to the list, the form is scrolled off the bottom of the
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> screen.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>  The main question is: what is going to be used more? Will it
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>  be the
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> list or
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the add form?
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If in most cases it will be the list, and if you have to
>>>  scroll
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>  down
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> every
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> time to see it... that's a pain.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -David
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>