FYI - problems rendering search results

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

To Whoever Maintains the Demo Server:

http://demo.ofbiz.org/ecommerce

Try searching on GZ-BASKET and observe the results. Quick synopsis of
problem: The first entry is rendered properly but then the subsequent
results fall below both side bar columns (regardless of how I resize my
browser.) I can't capture a screen shot of this because I am not able to
display all entries within the bounds of my 15" display.

I'm using Firefox 3.5.3 on a MAC 10.4

Regards,
Ruth
----------------------------------------------------
Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
[hidden email]
Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com

[Scott Gray-2]

Hi Ruth

The demo is just a checkout of the trunk so the issue is for whoever  
maintains OFBiz (the community) rather than the demo server.  Please  
feel free to create a jira issue for the problem.

Regards
Scott

HotWax Media
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com

On 12/10/2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> To Whoever Maintains the Demo Server:
>
> http://demo.ofbiz.org/ecommerce
>
> Try searching on GZ-BASKET and observe the results. Quick synopsis  
> of problem: The first entry is rendered properly but then the  
> subsequent results fall below both side bar columns (regardless of  
> how I resize my browser.) I can't capture a screen shot of this  
> because I am not able to display all entries within the bounds of my  
> 15" display.
>
> I'm using Firefox 3.5.3 on a MAC 10.4
>
> Regards,
> Ruth
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
> [hidden email]
> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>
>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi Scott:
Sorry to say there isn't enough time in the day for me to report all the
rendering problems I see in this release. For example, try adding a
product to the cart and observe how the the shopping cart summary links
(on the right column) under "Cart Summary" overlap each other. Or,
attempt to do a quick checkout (without logging in) and observe that the
left column renders on the left bottom of the page starting at a
horizontal position below the right column - leaving a huge empty white
space between the left margin of the browser and the right column.

I'm just a little discouraged at how little testing is done with each
new release. It seems to get worse and not better as time goes on.

Regards,
Ruth
----------------------------------------------------
Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
[hidden email]
Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com



Scott Gray wrote:

> Hi Ruth
>
> The demo is just a checkout of the trunk so the issue is for whoever
> maintains OFBiz (the community) rather than the demo server.  Please
> feel free to create a jira issue for the problem.
>
> Regards
> Scott
>
> HotWax Media
> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>
> On 12/10/2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>> To Whoever Maintains the Demo Server:
>>
>> http://demo.ofbiz.org/ecommerce
>>
>> Try searching on GZ-BASKET and observe the results. Quick synopsis of
>> problem: The first entry is rendered properly but then the subsequent
>> results fall below both side bar columns (regardless of how I resize
>> my browser.) I can't capture a screen shot of this because I am not
>> able to display all entries within the bounds of my 15" display.
>>
>> I'm using Firefox 3.5.3 on a MAC 10.4
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>> [hidden email]
>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>
>>
>
>

[David E. Jones-2]

Just in case it's helpful:


On Oct 11, 2009, at 5:14 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi Scott:
> Sorry to say there isn't enough time in the day for me to report all  
> the rendering problems I see in this release. For example, try  
> adding a product to the cart and observe how the the shopping cart  
> summary links (on the right column) under "Cart Summary" overlap  
> each other. Or, attempt to do a quick checkout (without logging in)  
> and observe that the left column renders on the left bottom of the  
> page starting at a horizontal position below the right column -  
> leaving a huge empty white space between the left margin of the  
> browser and the right column.

Helpful, actionable comments.

> I'm just a little discouraged at how little testing is done with  
> each new release. It seems to get worse and not better as time goes  
> on.

Not actionable comments. One could look at the history and see who  
changed what to see how this actually came about, otherwise it's just  
in the bucket of "someone did something and we'll all have to wait  
until someone (possibly someone else) fixes it."

-David

> Regards,
> Ruth
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
> [hidden email]
> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>
>
>
> Scott Gray wrote:
>> Hi Ruth
>>
>> The demo is just a checkout of the trunk so the issue is for  
>> whoever maintains OFBiz (the community) rather than the demo  
>> server.  Please feel free to create a jira issue for the problem.
>>
>> Regards
>> Scott
>>
>> HotWax Media
>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>
>> On 12/10/2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>> To Whoever Maintains the Demo Server:
>>>
>>> http://demo.ofbiz.org/ecommerce
>>>
>>> Try searching on GZ-BASKET and observe the results. Quick synopsis  
>>> of problem: The first entry is rendered properly but then the  
>>> subsequent results fall below both side bar columns (regardless of  
>>> how I resize my browser.) I can't capture a screen shot of this  
>>> because I am not able to display all entries within the bounds of  
>>> my 15" display.
>>>
>>> I'm using Firefox 3.5.3 on a MAC 10.4
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Hi Ruth,

When you see an issue just drop a word about it in this ML with a copy of the url of if you have enough time, please file a Jira.
It should not take too much time. I will also recommend you to use the Flat Grey Theme or at least Blue Light one. Which browser are
you using ?
I suspect some issue with Bizness Time and I'd ask community if we should revert the default to Flat Grey, at least in trunk ?

BTW I agree with you that some it's discouraging. For instance when you want to apply a patch and have to fix 2 unrelated bugs
before being able to test it. Some time it's even your own bugs :D.
But at the same time, OFBiz is growing and we should not become discouraged.
You may be interested by
https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/ConfigureReport.jspa?projectOrFilterId=project-12310500&periodName=daily&daysprevious=30&cumulative=true&showUnresolvedTrend=true&versionLabels=major&reportKey=com.atlassian.jira.ext.charting%3Acreatedvsresolved-report&Next=Next
to follow how the project kee up with bugs (not only bugs much Jira are)

Thanks

Jacques

From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>

> Hi Scott:
> Sorry to say there isn't enough time in the day for me to report all the rendering problems I see in this release. For example,
> try adding a product to the cart and observe how the the shopping cart summary links (on the right column) under "Cart Summary"
> overlap each other. Or, attempt to do a quick checkout (without logging in) and observe that the left column renders on the left
> bottom of the page starting at a horizontal position below the right column - leaving a huge empty white space between the left
> margin of the browser and the right column.
>
> I'm just a little discouraged at how little testing is done with each new release. It seems to get worse and not better as time
> goes on.
>
> Regards,
> Ruth
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
> [hidden email]
> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>
>
>
> Scott Gray wrote:
>> Hi Ruth
>>
>> The demo is just a checkout of the trunk so the issue is for whoever maintains OFBiz (the community) rather than the demo server.
>> Please feel free to create a jira issue for the problem.
>>
>> Regards
>> Scott
>>
>> HotWax Media
>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>
>> On 12/10/2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>> To Whoever Maintains the Demo Server:
>>>
>>> http://demo.ofbiz.org/ecommerce
>>>
>>> Try searching on GZ-BASKET and observe the results. Quick synopsis of problem: The first entry is rendered properly but then the
>>> subsequent results fall below both side bar columns (regardless of how I resize my browser.) I can't capture a screen shot of
>>> this because I am not able to display all entries within the bounds of my 15" display.
>>>
>>> I'm using Firefox 3.5.3 on a MAC 10.4
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hello David:
IMHO, that is a cop-out. Does the project have a "Board-of-Directors" or
other governing body? If so, where is the leadership here? Software
development is not just about committing code to a repository. It is
just as much about planning, testing and taking responsibility for one's
actions.

Regards,
Ruth
David E Jones wrote:

>
> Just in case it's helpful:
>
>
> On Oct 11, 2009, at 5:14 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>> Hi Scott:
>> Sorry to say there isn't enough time in the day for me to report all
>> the rendering problems I see in this release. For example, try adding
>> a product to the cart and observe how the the shopping cart summary
>> links (on the right column) under "Cart Summary" overlap each other.
>> Or, attempt to do a quick checkout (without logging in) and observe
>> that the left column renders on the left bottom of the page starting
>> at a horizontal position below the right column - leaving a huge
>> empty white space between the left margin of the browser and the
>> right column.
>
> Helpful, actionable comments.
>
>> I'm just a little discouraged at how little testing is done with each
>> new release. It seems to get worse and not better as time goes on.
>
> Not actionable comments. One could look at the history and see who
> changed what to see how this actually came about, otherwise it's just
> in the bucket of "someone did something and we'll all have to wait
> until someone (possibly someone else) fixes it."
>
> -David
>
>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>> [hidden email]
>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Scott Gray wrote:
>>> Hi Ruth
>>>
>>> The demo is just a checkout of the trunk so the issue is for whoever
>>> maintains OFBiz (the community) rather than the demo server.  Please
>>> feel free to create a jira issue for the problem.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> HotWax Media
>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>
>>> On 12/10/2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>> To Whoever Maintains the Demo Server:
>>>>
>>>> http://demo.ofbiz.org/ecommerce
>>>>
>>>> Try searching on GZ-BASKET and observe the results. Quick synopsis
>>>> of problem: The first entry is rendered properly but then the
>>>> subsequent results fall below both side bar columns (regardless of
>>>> how I resize my browser.) I can't capture a screen shot of this
>>>> because I am not able to display all entries within the bounds of
>>>> my 15" display.
>>>>
>>>> I'm using Firefox 3.5.3 on a MAC 10.4
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi Jacques:
First, thanks for engaging in this discussion. As an outsider who really
cares about OFBiz, I find it disheartening that the project as a whole
does not have enough pride in ownership to at least validate basic user
facing components. I understand the project is growing and that is a
good thing. But I caution everyone, bigger (and more) is not always better.

While discouraged I'm not going to stop promoting and using OFBiz. IMHO,
it is still unrivaled. These are but surface problems that need
attention - sooner rather than later. Since I am an outsider, this list
is one of the few mediums I have for voicing my concerns. Sometimes,
however, I feel as though I'm "spitting in the wind".

Second, I applaud all the work you and others have contributed towards
the betterment of the project. I continue to be amazed at the dedication
and commitment of many of the developers - you included!

Third, I have no problem with filing Jira issues. I have filed several
in the past. However, IMHO that is not going to solve this particular
problem. Neither is going back through the commits (as David suggests)
to identify the problematic code. IMHO, there is something fundamentally
wrong possibly with the planning process or the manner in which commits
are filed. I don't know.

Code validation and regression testing is a complex process that needs
to be addressed with some rigor if the community ever expects to move
ahead. I am available to help in anyway I can. But, I don't see much
discussion or activity in this direction.

As for your comment concerning the themes to use: my original comments
were directed towards the online demo which, if there is a way to change
the ecommerce product listing theme, it is not well advertised.

Finally, I welcome any further discussion on quality control and testing
as I really do believe that OFBiz rocks! I want to see it take its
proper place in the world :-)

Regards,
Ruth

Jacques Le Roux wrote:

> Hi Ruth,
>
> When you see an issue just drop a word about it in this ML with a copy
> of the url of if you have enough time, please file a Jira.
> It should not take too much time. I will also recommend you to use the
> Flat Grey Theme or at least Blue Light one. Which browser are you using ?
> I suspect some issue with Bizness Time and I'd ask community if we
> should revert the default to Flat Grey, at least in trunk ?
>
> BTW I agree with you that some it's discouraging. For instance when
> you want to apply a patch and have to fix 2 unrelated bugs before
> being able to test it. Some time it's even your own bugs :D.
> But at the same time, OFBiz is growing and we should not become
> discouraged.
> You may be interested by
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/ConfigureReport.jspa?projectOrFilterId=project-12310500&periodName=daily&daysprevious=30&cumulative=true&showUnresolvedTrend=true&versionLabels=major&reportKey=com.atlassian.jira.ext.charting%3Acreatedvsresolved-report&Next=Next 
>
> to follow how the project kee up with bugs (not only bugs much Jira are)
>
> Thanks
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>
>> Hi Scott:
>> Sorry to say there isn't enough time in the day for me to report all
>> the rendering problems I see in this release. For example, try adding
>> a product to the cart and observe how the the shopping cart summary
>> links (on the right column) under "Cart Summary" overlap each other.
>> Or, attempt to do a quick checkout (without logging in) and observe
>> that the left column renders on the left bottom of the page starting
>> at a horizontal position below the right column - leaving a huge
>> empty white space between the left margin of the browser and the
>> right column.
>>
>> I'm just a little discouraged at how little testing is done with each
>> new release. It seems to get worse and not better as time goes on.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>> [hidden email]
>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Scott Gray wrote:
>>> Hi Ruth
>>>
>>> The demo is just a checkout of the trunk so the issue is for whoever
>>> maintains OFBiz (the community) rather than the demo server. Please
>>> feel free to create a jira issue for the problem.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> HotWax Media
>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>
>>> On 12/10/2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>> To Whoever Maintains the Demo Server:
>>>>
>>>> http://demo.ofbiz.org/ecommerce
>>>>
>>>> Try searching on GZ-BASKET and observe the results. Quick synopsis
>>>> of problem: The first entry is rendered properly but then the
>>>> subsequent results fall below both side bar columns (regardless of
>>>> how I resize my browser.) I can't capture a screen shot of this
>>>> because I am not able to display all entries within the bounds of
>>>> my 15" display.
>>>>
>>>> I'm using Firefox 3.5.3 on a MAC 10.4
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>

[Ryan Foster]

Jacques,

I believe Ruth is referring issues in the ecommerce demo in this  
string rather than issues with any particular back office theme (is  
that correct Ruth?).  Anil is leading an initiative currently to clean  
up a lot of these user facing components by removing deprecated  
elements in the markup, consolidate and simplify styles and bring the  
markup up to more modern web standards that accurately reflect Best  
Practices that have been established in regards to HTML and CSS.  As  
this is currently an "in progress" initiative, I imagine that there  
will be bugs/issues in the layout and Freemarker templates and  
stylesheets are worked on.  I don't think that this is necessarily an  
indication of a lack of pride in ownership, but rather a natural part  
of the front-end development process.  With the vary large variety of  
browser and operating environments, there are considerably more  
variables in front-end development as opposed to backend-end  
development, which at times can make the process more complex.  To  
echo your words (and I am not being condescending here, so please  
don't take this the wrong way), there is simply not enough time is the  
day to test every page in every browser, in every operating system.  
In that case, I would echo Scott in encouraging everyone on this list  
to report these issues as they are found so that they can be  
identified, categorized and prioritized as this initiative progresses.

Thanks,

Ryan Foster
HotWax Media
801.671.0769
[hidden email]




On Oct 12, 2009, at 8:30 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi Jacques:
> First, thanks for engaging in this discussion. As an outsider who  
> really cares about OFBiz, I find it disheartening that the project  
> as a whole does not have enough pride in ownership to at least  
> validate basic user facing components. I understand the project is  
> growing and that is a good thing. But I caution everyone, bigger  
> (and more) is not always better.
>
> While discouraged I'm not going to stop promoting and using OFBiz.  
> IMHO, it is still unrivaled. These are but surface problems that  
> need attention - sooner rather than later. Since I am an outsider,  
> this list is one of the few mediums I have for voicing my concerns.  
> Sometimes, however, I feel as though I'm "spitting in the wind".
>
> Second, I applaud all the work you and others have contributed  
> towards the betterment of the project. I continue to be amazed at  
> the dedication and commitment of many of the developers - you  
> included!
>
> Third, I have no problem with filing Jira issues. I have filed  
> several in the past. However, IMHO that is not going to solve this  
> particular problem. Neither is going back through the commits (as  
> David suggests) to identify the problematic code. IMHO, there is  
> something fundamentally wrong possibly with the planning process or  
> the manner in which commits are filed. I don't know.
>
> Code validation and regression testing is a complex process that  
> needs to be addressed with some rigor if the community ever expects  
> to move ahead. I am available to help in anyway I can. But, I don't  
> see much discussion or activity in this direction.
>
> As for your comment concerning the themes to use: my original  
> comments were directed towards the online demo which, if there is a  
> way to change the ecommerce product listing theme, it is not well  
> advertised.
>
> Finally, I welcome any further discussion on quality control and  
> testing as I really do believe that OFBiz rocks! I want to see it  
> take its proper place in the world :-)
>
> Regards,
> Ruth
>
> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> Hi Ruth,
>>
>> When you see an issue just drop a word about it in this ML with a  
>> copy of the url of if you have enough time, please file a Jira.
>> It should not take too much time. I will also recommend you to use  
>> the Flat Grey Theme or at least Blue Light one. Which browser are  
>> you using ?
>> I suspect some issue with Bizness Time and I'd ask community if we  
>> should revert the default to Flat Grey, at least in trunk ?
>>
>> BTW I agree with you that some it's discouraging. For instance when  
>> you want to apply a patch and have to fix 2 unrelated bugs before  
>> being able to test it. Some time it's even your own bugs :D.
>> But at the same time, OFBiz is growing and we should not become  
>> discouraged.
>> You may be interested by https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/ConfigureReport.jspa?projectOrFilterId=project-12310500&periodName=daily&daysprevious=30&cumulative=true&showUnresolvedTrend=true&versionLabels=major&reportKey=com.atlassian.jira.ext.charting%3Acreatedvsresolved-report&Next=Next
>> to follow how the project kee up with bugs (not only bugs much Jira  
>> are)
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>> From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>
>>> Hi Scott:
>>> Sorry to say there isn't enough time in the day for me to report  
>>> all the rendering problems I see in this release. For example, try  
>>> adding a product to the cart and observe how the the shopping cart  
>>> summary links (on the right column) under "Cart Summary" overlap  
>>> each other. Or, attempt to do a quick checkout (without logging  
>>> in) and observe that the left column renders on the left bottom of  
>>> the page starting at a horizontal position below the right column  
>>> - leaving a huge empty white space between the left margin of the  
>>> browser and the right column.
>>>
>>> I'm just a little discouraged at how little testing is done with  
>>> each new release. It seems to get worse and not better as time  
>>> goes on.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Scott Gray wrote:
>>>> Hi Ruth
>>>>
>>>> The demo is just a checkout of the trunk so the issue is for  
>>>> whoever maintains OFBiz (the community) rather than the demo  
>>>> server. Please feel free to create a jira issue for the problem.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> HotWax Media
>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>
>>>> On 12/10/2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> To Whoever Maintains the Demo Server:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://demo.ofbiz.org/ecommerce
>>>>>
>>>>> Try searching on GZ-BASKET and observe the results. Quick  
>>>>> synopsis of problem: The first entry is rendered properly but  
>>>>> then the subsequent results fall below both side bar columns  
>>>>> (regardless of how I resize my browser.) I can't capture a  
>>>>> screen shot of this because I am not able to display all entries  
>>>>> within the bounds of my 15" display.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm using Firefox 3.5.3 on a MAC 10.4
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hello Ryan, Jacques:
That is correct. I was referring to the ecommerce demo.

Again, thanks for engaging in this discussion.

That Anil is leading an initiative to clean up user facing components is
good news indeed!

I am keenly aware of the issues facing front-end developers. IMHO, one
of OFBiz's strengths is that the framework makes back-end development
relatively pain free. Relative to front-end development that is. I spend
much more time on front-end work whenever I implement a new project.
But, I'm willing to do this because I know with total conviction that
the back-end won't let me down. Thanks David, Andy, Jacques  and
everyone else who have made this possible!

Regards,
Ruth


Ryan Foster wrote:

> Jacques,
>
> I believe Ruth is referring issues in the ecommerce demo in this
> string rather than issues with any particular back office theme (is
> that correct Ruth?).  Anil is leading an initiative currently to clean
> up a lot of these user facing components by removing deprecated
> elements in the markup, consolidate and simplify styles and bring the
> markup up to more modern web standards that accurately reflect Best
> Practices that have been established in regards to HTML and CSS.  As
> this is currently an "in progress" initiative, I imagine that there
> will be bugs/issues in the layout and Freemarker templates and
> stylesheets are worked on.  I don't think that this is necessarily an
> indication of a lack of pride in ownership, but rather a natural part
> of the front-end development process.  With the vary large variety of
> browser and operating environments, there are considerably more
> variables in front-end development as opposed to backend-end
> development, which at times can make the process more complex.  To
> echo your words (and I am not being condescending here, so please
> don't take this the wrong way), there is simply not enough time is the
> day to test every page in every browser, in every operating system.  
> In that case, I would echo Scott in encouraging everyone on this list
> to report these issues as they are found so that they can be
> identified, categorized and prioritized as this initiative progresses.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan Foster
> HotWax Media
> 801.671.0769
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 12, 2009, at 8:30 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>> Hi Jacques:
>> First, thanks for engaging in this discussion. As an outsider who
>> really cares about OFBiz, I find it disheartening that the project as
>> a whole does not have enough pride in ownership to at least validate
>> basic user facing components. I understand the project is growing and
>> that is a good thing. But I caution everyone, bigger (and more) is
>> not always better.
>>
>> While discouraged I'm not going to stop promoting and using OFBiz.
>> IMHO, it is still unrivaled. These are but surface problems that need
>> attention - sooner rather than later. Since I am an outsider, this
>> list is one of the few mediums I have for voicing my concerns.
>> Sometimes, however, I feel as though I'm "spitting in the wind".
>>
>> Second, I applaud all the work you and others have contributed
>> towards the betterment of the project. I continue to be amazed at the
>> dedication and commitment of many of the developers - you included!
>>
>> Third, I have no problem with filing Jira issues. I have filed
>> several in the past. However, IMHO that is not going to solve this
>> particular problem. Neither is going back through the commits (as
>> David suggests) to identify the problematic code. IMHO, there is
>> something fundamentally wrong possibly with the planning process or
>> the manner in which commits are filed. I don't know.
>>
>> Code validation and regression testing is a complex process that
>> needs to be addressed with some rigor if the community ever expects
>> to move ahead. I am available to help in anyway I can. But, I don't
>> see much discussion or activity in this direction.
>>
>> As for your comment concerning the themes to use: my original
>> comments were directed towards the online demo which, if there is a
>> way to change the ecommerce product listing theme, it is not well
>> advertised.
>>
>> Finally, I welcome any further discussion on quality control and
>> testing as I really do believe that OFBiz rocks! I want to see it
>> take its proper place in the world :-)
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>>
>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> Hi Ruth,
>>>
>>> When you see an issue just drop a word about it in this ML with a
>>> copy of the url of if you have enough time, please file a Jira.
>>> It should not take too much time. I will also recommend you to use
>>> the Flat Grey Theme or at least Blue Light one. Which browser are
>>> you using ?
>>> I suspect some issue with Bizness Time and I'd ask community if we
>>> should revert the default to Flat Grey, at least in trunk ?
>>>
>>> BTW I agree with you that some it's discouraging. For instance when
>>> you want to apply a patch and have to fix 2 unrelated bugs before
>>> being able to test it. Some time it's even your own bugs :D.
>>> But at the same time, OFBiz is growing and we should not become
>>> discouraged.
>>> You may be interested by
>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/ConfigureReport.jspa?projectOrFilterId=project-12310500&periodName=daily&daysprevious=30&cumulative=true&showUnresolvedTrend=true&versionLabels=major&reportKey=com.atlassian.jira.ext.charting%3Acreatedvsresolved-report&Next=Next 
>>>
>>> to follow how the project kee up with bugs (not only bugs much Jira
>>> are)
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>>> From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>
>>>> Hi Scott:
>>>> Sorry to say there isn't enough time in the day for me to report
>>>> all the rendering problems I see in this release. For example, try
>>>> adding a product to the cart and observe how the the shopping cart
>>>> summary links (on the right column) under "Cart Summary" overlap
>>>> each other. Or, attempt to do a quick checkout (without logging in)
>>>> and observe that the left column renders on the left bottom of the
>>>> page starting at a horizontal position below the right column -
>>>> leaving a huge empty white space between the left margin of the
>>>> browser and the right column.
>>>>
>>>> I'm just a little discouraged at how little testing is done with
>>>> each new release. It seems to get worse and not better as time goes
>>>> on.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Scott Gray wrote:
>>>>> Hi Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> The demo is just a checkout of the trunk so the issue is for
>>>>> whoever maintains OFBiz (the community) rather than the demo
>>>>> server. Please feel free to create a jira issue for the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Scott
>>>>>
>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/10/2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> To Whoever Maintains the Demo Server:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://demo.ofbiz.org/ecommerce
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Try searching on GZ-BASKET and observe the results. Quick
>>>>>> synopsis of problem: The first entry is rendered properly but
>>>>>> then the subsequent results fall below both side bar columns
>>>>>> (regardless of how I resize my browser.) I can't capture a screen
>>>>>> shot of this because I am not able to display all entries within
>>>>>> the bounds of my 15" display.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm using Firefox 3.5.3 on a MAC 10.4
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Ruth,

From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>
> Hi Jacques:
> First, thanks for engaging in this discussion. As an outsider who really cares about OFBiz, I find it disheartening that the
> project as a whole does not have enough pride in ownership to at least validate basic user facing components. I understand the
> project is growing and that is a good thing. But I caution everyone, bigger (and more) is not always better.

I plenty agree. On the other hand OFBiz OOTB is plenty of stuff because it's intended to demonstrate and show all its possibilities.

> While discouraged I'm not going to stop promoting and using OFBiz. IMHO, it is still unrivaled. These are but surface problems
> that need attention - sooner rather than later. Since I am an outsider, this list is one of the few mediums I have for voicing my
> concerns. Sometimes, however, I feel as though I'm "spitting in the wind".
>
> Second, I applaud all the work you and others have contributed towards the betterment of the project. I continue to be amazed at
> the dedication and commitment of many of the developers - you included!

Thank you for us!

> Third, I have no problem with filing Jira issues. I have filed several in the past. However, IMHO that is not going to solve this
> particular problem. Neither is going back through the commits (as David suggests) to identify the problematic code. IMHO, there is
> something fundamentally wrong possibly with the planning process or the manner in which commits are filed. I don't know.

I think Ryan answered you. Filling Jira issues is really the best way to progress.
Remember it's a community driven project where nobody has the power to decide alone.
We need to make community decisions. For that we need to organize how to make these decisions.

> Code validation and regression testing is a complex process that needs to be addressed with some rigor if the community ever
> expects to move ahead. I am available to help in anyway I can. But, I don't see much discussion or activity in this direction.

You are welcome, if you have ideas about how to organize that.
Put your green hat on (but please don't say "I don't know", I'm sure you know something ;o)

> As for your comment concerning the themes to use: my original comments were directed towards the online demo which, if there is a
> way to change the ecommerce product listing theme, it is not well advertised.

Right, but I believe there is currently no real alternative on the eCommerce side

> Finally, I welcome any further discussion on quality control and testing as I really do believe that OFBiz rocks! I want to see it
> take its proper place in the world :-)

There are currently such efforts with Selenium, did you follow them ?

Thanks

Jacques

> Regards,
> Ruth
>
> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> Hi Ruth,
>>
>> When you see an issue just drop a word about it in this ML with a copy of the url of if you have enough time, please file a Jira.
>> It should not take too much time. I will also recommend you to use the Flat Grey Theme or at least Blue Light one. Which browser
>> are you using ?
>> I suspect some issue with Bizness Time and I'd ask community if we should revert the default to Flat Grey, at least in trunk ?
>>
>> BTW I agree with you that some it's discouraging. For instance when you want to apply a patch and have to fix 2 unrelated bugs
>> before being able to test it. Some time it's even your own bugs :D.
>> But at the same time, OFBiz is growing and we should not become discouraged.
>> You may be interested by
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/ConfigureReport.jspa?projectOrFilterId=project-12310500&periodName=daily&daysprevious=30&cumulative=true&showUnresolvedTrend=true&versionLabels=major&reportKey=com.atlassian.jira.ext.charting%3Acreatedvsresolved-report&Next=Next
>> to follow how the project kee up with bugs (not only bugs much Jira are)
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>> From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>
>>> Hi Scott:
>>> Sorry to say there isn't enough time in the day for me to report all the rendering problems I see in this release. For example,
>>> try adding a product to the cart and observe how the the shopping cart summary links (on the right column) under "Cart Summary"
>>> overlap each other. Or, attempt to do a quick checkout (without logging in) and observe that the left column renders on the left
>>> bottom of the page starting at a horizontal position below the right column - leaving a huge empty white space between the left
>>> margin of the browser and the right column.
>>>
>>> I'm just a little discouraged at how little testing is done with each new release. It seems to get worse and not better as time
>>> goes on.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Scott Gray wrote:
>>>> Hi Ruth
>>>>
>>>> The demo is just a checkout of the trunk so the issue is for whoever maintains OFBiz (the community) rather than the demo
>>>> server. Please feel free to create a jira issue for the problem.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> HotWax Media
>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>
>>>> On 12/10/2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> To Whoever Maintains the Demo Server:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://demo.ofbiz.org/ecommerce
>>>>>
>>>>> Try searching on GZ-BASKET and observe the results. Quick synopsis of problem: The first entry is rendered properly but then
>>>>> the subsequent results fall below both side bar columns (regardless of how I resize my browser.) I can't capture a screen shot
>>>>> of this because I am not able to display all entries within the bounds of my 15" display.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm using Firefox 3.5.3 on a MAC 10.4
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

[David E. Jones-2]

I think I understand the disconnect. Based on that idea it makes sense  
that you are frustrated.

No, there is no "Board of Directors" (except the ASF Board, but that's  
still different). There is a Project Management Committee (PMC), but  
the PMC is only responsible for general administration like voting on  
new committers and PMC members, voting on releases and other major  
project activities, and when necessary vote to resolve conflicts
(should be avoided whenever possible, and it usually is). In no way is  
the PMC any sort of top-down management group. OFBiz has always been  
this way, and the practice has become more formal now that the project  
is part of the Apache Software Foundation. For more ASF details about  
the PMC, please see:

http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#structure

In any case, the interesting part of a community driven project like  
OFBiz is that the roles are defined differently. For example, you  
mentioned in another email that you consider yourself an "outsider"  
and in reality no one but you decides if you are an outsider or an  
insider, and actually with so many different ways to participate those  
terms don't mean much. In my opinion, you are very much an insider.

In a traditional top-down organization there are people with power who  
tell other people what to do. The others do what they are told because  
their motivation is influenced by money, fear, hope... or usually some  
combination of these things.

A community-driven open source project, like OFBiz, is a purely  
voluntary organization. Anyone can volunteer to become a "boss" and  
try to get other people to do things. The trick is that you can't be a  
"boss" in the normal meaning of the term, ie you can't just tell other  
people what to do. The approaches that work here are collaboration and  
to some extent influence through the power of ideas (and sometimes the  
power of personality and position, but in a group of people like this  
that usually causes problems instead of being helpful, even if not  
intentionally used as people assume you are using it).

And so, we have the fun opportunity to work with others in a purely  
voluntary way. We don't get a chance to do that much. Sometimes  
companies work in that way to some extent, but usually managers try to  
get around the difficult problems that arise when people believe they  
are interacting on a voluntary basis. With government unfortunately  
things are very much not voluntary. Perhaps they have been in  
different times and places, but I'm not aware of any government that  
exists like that now.

-David


On Oct 12, 2009, at 7:32 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hello David:
> IMHO, that is a cop-out. Does the project have a "Board-of-
> Directors" or other governing body? If so, where is the leadership  
> here? Software development is not just about committing code to a  
> repository. It is just as much about planning, testing and taking  
> responsibility for one's actions.
>
> Regards,
> Ruth
> David E Jones wrote:
>>
>> Just in case it's helpful:
>>
>>
>> On Oct 11, 2009, at 5:14 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Scott:
>>> Sorry to say there isn't enough time in the day for me to report  
>>> all the rendering problems I see in this release. For example, try  
>>> adding a product to the cart and observe how the the shopping cart  
>>> summary links (on the right column) under "Cart Summary" overlap  
>>> each other. Or, attempt to do a quick checkout (without logging  
>>> in) and observe that the left column renders on the left bottom of  
>>> the page starting at a horizontal position below the right column  
>>> - leaving a huge empty white space between the left margin of the  
>>> browser and the right column.
>>
>> Helpful, actionable comments.
>>
>>> I'm just a little discouraged at how little testing is done with  
>>> each new release. It seems to get worse and not better as time  
>>> goes on.
>>
>> Not actionable comments. One could look at the history and see who  
>> changed what to see how this actually came about, otherwise it's  
>> just in the bucket of "someone did something and we'll all have to  
>> wait until someone (possibly someone else) fixes it."
>>
>> -David
>>
>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Scott Gray wrote:
>>>> Hi Ruth
>>>>
>>>> The demo is just a checkout of the trunk so the issue is for  
>>>> whoever maintains OFBiz (the community) rather than the demo  
>>>> server.  Please feel free to create a jira issue for the problem.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> HotWax Media
>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>
>>>> On 12/10/2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> To Whoever Maintains the Demo Server:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://demo.ofbiz.org/ecommerce
>>>>>
>>>>> Try searching on GZ-BASKET and observe the results. Quick  
>>>>> synopsis of problem: The first entry is rendered properly but  
>>>>> then the subsequent results fall below both side bar columns  
>>>>> (regardless of how I resize my browser.) I can't capture a  
>>>>> screen shot of this because I am not able to display all entries  
>>>>> within the bounds of my 15" display.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm using Firefox 3.5.3 on a MAC 10.4
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>

[Jacques Le Roux]

David,

I  began to wrote something about some of the aspects explained in your message.
But I had to stop because it was not even neutral, but too much negative (I'm a rebel ;o)
So thank you for this objective point of view and positive explanation!

Jacques

From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>

>
> I think I understand the disconnect. Based on that idea it makes sense  
> that you are frustrated.
>
> No, there is no "Board of Directors" (except the ASF Board, but that's  
> still different). There is a Project Management Committee (PMC), but  
> the PMC is only responsible for general administration like voting on  
> new committers and PMC members, voting on releases and other major  
> project activities, and when necessary vote to resolve conflicts
> (should be avoided whenever possible, and it usually is). In no way is  
> the PMC any sort of top-down management group. OFBiz has always been  
> this way, and the practice has become more formal now that the project  
> is part of the Apache Software Foundation. For more ASF details about  
> the PMC, please see:
>
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#structure
>
> In any case, the interesting part of a community driven project like  
> OFBiz is that the roles are defined differently. For example, you  
> mentioned in another email that you consider yourself an "outsider"  
> and in reality no one but you decides if you are an outsider or an  
> insider, and actually with so many different ways to participate those  
> terms don't mean much. In my opinion, you are very much an insider.
>
> In a traditional top-down organization there are people with power who  
> tell other people what to do. The others do what they are told because  
> their motivation is influenced by money, fear, hope... or usually some  
> combination of these things.
>
> A community-driven open source project, like OFBiz, is a purely  
> voluntary organization. Anyone can volunteer to become a "boss" and  
> try to get other people to do things. The trick is that you can't be a  
> "boss" in the normal meaning of the term, ie you can't just tell other  
> people what to do. The approaches that work here are collaboration and  
> to some extent influence through the power of ideas (and sometimes the  
> power of personality and position, but in a group of people like this  
> that usually causes problems instead of being helpful, even if not  
> intentionally used as people assume you are using it).
>
> And so, we have the fun opportunity to work with others in a purely  
> voluntary way. We don't get a chance to do that much. Sometimes  
> companies work in that way to some extent, but usually managers try to  
> get around the difficult problems that arise when people believe they  
> are interacting on a voluntary basis. With government unfortunately  
> things are very much not voluntary. Perhaps they have been in  
> different times and places, but I'm not aware of any government that  
> exists like that now.
>
> -David
>
>
> On Oct 12, 2009, at 7:32 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>> Hello David:
>> IMHO, that is a cop-out. Does the project have a "Board-of-
>> Directors" or other governing body? If so, where is the leadership  
>> here? Software development is not just about committing code to a  
>> repository. It is just as much about planning, testing and taking  
>> responsibility for one's actions.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>
>>> Just in case it's helpful:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 11, 2009, at 5:14 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Scott:
>>>> Sorry to say there isn't enough time in the day for me to report  
>>>> all the rendering problems I see in this release. For example, try  
>>>> adding a product to the cart and observe how the the shopping cart  
>>>> summary links (on the right column) under "Cart Summary" overlap  
>>>> each other. Or, attempt to do a quick checkout (without logging  
>>>> in) and observe that the left column renders on the left bottom of  
>>>> the page starting at a horizontal position below the right column  
>>>> - leaving a huge empty white space between the left margin of the  
>>>> browser and the right column.
>>>
>>> Helpful, actionable comments.
>>>
>>>> I'm just a little discouraged at how little testing is done with  
>>>> each new release. It seems to get worse and not better as time  
>>>> goes on.
>>>
>>> Not actionable comments. One could look at the history and see who  
>>> changed what to see how this actually came about, otherwise it's  
>>> just in the bucket of "someone did something and we'll all have to  
>>> wait until someone (possibly someone else) fixes it."
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Scott Gray wrote:
>>>>> Hi Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> The demo is just a checkout of the trunk so the issue is for  
>>>>> whoever maintains OFBiz (the community) rather than the demo  
>>>>> server.  Please feel free to create a jira issue for the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Scott
>>>>>
>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/10/2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> To Whoever Maintains the Demo Server:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://demo.ofbiz.org/ecommerce
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Try searching on GZ-BASKET and observe the results. Quick  
>>>>>> synopsis of problem: The first entry is rendered properly but  
>>>>>> then the subsequent results fall below both side bar columns  
>>>>>> (regardless of how I resize my browser.) I can't capture a  
>>>>>> screen shot of this because I am not able to display all entries  
>>>>>> within the bounds of my 15" display.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm using Firefox 3.5.3 on a MAC 10.4
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>