Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps
falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy
away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will
take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...

Regards,
Ruth
----------------------------------------------------
Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
[hidden email]

[Adrian Crum]

If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know
what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful.

-Adrian

Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps
> falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy
> away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will
> take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...
>
> Regards,
> Ruth
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
> [hidden email]
>

[Jacopo Cappellato-4]

please submit a patch.

Jacopo

On Feb 5, 2010, at 6:10 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...
>
> Regards,
> Ruth
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
> [hidden email]

[Tim Ruppert]

Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for.  Here's what I see when I go to the site(s):

http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see:

1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily.
2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page.
3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built.

Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture:

1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over.
-- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it.
2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page.

Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you:

1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work.
2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like

I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve.  Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result.  Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way.  When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those.

Cheers,
Ruppert

On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:

> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful.
>
> -Adrian
>
> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>> [hidden email]

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

HI Adrian:
Welcome to my world.
Ruth

Adrian Crum wrote:

> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know
> what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful.
>
> -Adrian
>
> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing
>> keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new
>> users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their
>> browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>> [hidden email]
>>
>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi Tim:
I've been through this already. Several times over.

All I can say at this point is, no one is minding the store. I just
don't get it: You guys spend hours agonizing over how and where to put
spaces in Java files, yet you can't see the most obvious flaws in how
OFBiz does business.

Oh well...

Regards,

Ruth




Tim Ruppert wrote:

> Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for.  Here's what I see when I go to the site(s):
>
> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see:
>
> 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily.
> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page.
> 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built.
>
> Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture:
>
> 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over.
> -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it.
> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page.
>
> Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you:
>
> 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work.
> 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like
>
> I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve.  Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result.  Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way.  When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those.
>
> Cheers,
> Ruppert
>
> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>
>  
>> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful.
>>
>> -Adrian
>>
>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>    
>>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>> [hidden email]
>>>      
>
>  

[Jacques Le Roux-2-2]

Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition, for instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, vs..., etc.
We may mimic some of the ways they are doing things. For instance, some time ago Chris Snow asked for a better SEO, I'm not quite
sure but I think it'a about exporting the wiki and make Google (and other SEs) knows about it...

Jacques

From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]>
Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of
attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for.
Here's what I see when I go to the site(s):

http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see:

1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily.
2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page.
3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built.

Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture:

1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over.
-- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it.
2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page.

Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you:

1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work.
2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like

I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to
improve.  Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result.  Btw, all
of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way.  When
commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least
acknowledge those.

Cheers,
Ruppert

On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:

> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful.
>
> -Adrian
>
> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder
>> new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>> [hidden email]

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi Jacques:
That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet.

My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major
regression here and no one has said a word (until me, right now) about
it. That leads me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is the
second or third thing anyone interested in OFBiz sees...after the splash
page.

It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind
would bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst case: A
prospective user leaves the site (with a slight hint suggesting that
maybe the code is as disorganized as the web page) and downloads some
other project's code. Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot
pole.

Best case: A prospect user will end up downloading the trunk code,
because, on this web page, all roads lead to a trunk download. Then,
well how much fun is that going to be for a new user who doesn't have a
clue where to start? Bye-bye prospect. I tried, but code isn't stable
enough for my tastes.

And some wonder why there isn't more OFBiz activity out there. Well, I
for one am pretty sure I know why.

Regards,
Ruth

Jacques Le Roux wrote:

> Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition, for
> instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, vs..., etc.
> We may mimic some of the ways they are doing things. For instance,
> some time ago Chris Snow asked for a better SEO, I'm not quite sure
> but I think it'a about exporting the wiki and make Google (and other
> SEs) knows about it...
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]>
> Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message -
> so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude,
> I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us
> help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see
> when I go to the site(s):
>
> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and
> testing anything - just looking at what I see:
>
> 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily.
> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on
> this page.
> 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built.
>
> Then I go to here -
> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a
> slightly different picture:
>
> 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy
> after it was moved over.
> -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it.
> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that
> first page.
>
> Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super
> important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you:
>
> 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work.
> 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like
>
> I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've
> sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve.  
> Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure
> you'll be more pleased with the result.  Btw, all of those other
> options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF,
> so it's hard to manage the same way.  When commercial interests are
> more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as
> well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those.
>
> Cheers,
> Ruppert
>
> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>
>> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to
>> know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful.
>>
>> -Adrian
>>
>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing
>>> keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new
>>> users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their
>>> browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword
>>> "myofbiz"
>>> [hidden email]
>
>
>

[Tim Ruppert]

Thanks - again that was super helpful.  

I took the time to lay it out like a towel what was there, what looks to be broken when we migrated to the ASF infra and no you wont' go thru it?  There are some obvious spots for you to say something or point to projects you like, but you just continue to roll your eyes.  I didn't push for or want this move to the ASF infra - but I'm still trying to help here.

What else do you want here Ruth?  

Cheers,
Ruppert

On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi Tim:
> I've been through this already. Several times over.
>
> All I can say at this point is, no one is minding the store. I just don't get it: You guys spend hours agonizing over how and where to put spaces in Java files, yet you can't see the most obvious flaws in how OFBiz does business.
>
> Oh well...
>
> Regards,
>
> Ruth
>
>
>
>
> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>> Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for.  Here's what I see when I go to the site(s):
>>
>> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see:
>>
>> 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily.
>> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page.
>> 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built.
>>
>> Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture:
>>
>> 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it.
>> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page.
>>
>> Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you:
>>
>> 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work.
>> 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like
>>
>> I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve.  Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result.  Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way.  When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ruppert
>>
>> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful.
>>>
>>> -Adrian
>>>
>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>    
>>>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>      
>>
>>  

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi Tim:
Since you asked:

I'd like to have a download site where any user, especially a new user,
could visit, feel comfortable about the project (and life in general),
and then proceed about the business of downloading code. Easy, simple
and painless. Yes, the nightly builds are a HUGE step in that direction.
Thanks again to everyone who makes this possible. But, lets put that in
perspective: That only makes the process of downloading easier.

I'd also like to have a seat on the project's oversight group. I don't
understand how a project of this magnitude can continue to grow and
prosper without business oriented people helping to guide it. The
oversight group (whoever they happen to be) is like a bunch of very
clever "foxes" guarding the "chicken coop". (Where the "chicken coop" is
the code base.) There is so much more to making software successful than
anything clever "foxes" will ever have time to consider.

Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's  group, I
won't be able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my desktop
anymore.

Regards,
Ruth


Tim Ruppert wrote:

> Thanks - again that was super helpful.  
>
> I took the time to lay it out like a towel what was there, what looks to be broken when we migrated to the ASF infra and no you wont' go thru it?  There are some obvious spots for you to say something or point to projects you like, but you just continue to roll your eyes.  I didn't push for or want this move to the ASF infra - but I'm still trying to help here.
>
> What else do you want here Ruth?  
>
> Cheers,
> Ruppert
>
> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>  
>> Hi Tim:
>> I've been through this already. Several times over.
>>
>> All I can say at this point is, no one is minding the store. I just don't get it: You guys spend hours agonizing over how and where to put spaces in Java files, yet you can't see the most obvious flaws in how OFBiz does business.
>>
>> Oh well...
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Ruth
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>    
>>> Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for.  Here's what I see when I go to the site(s):
>>>
>>> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see:
>>>
>>> 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily.
>>> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page.
>>> 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built.
>>>
>>> Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture:
>>>
>>> 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it.
>>> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page.
>>>
>>> Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you:
>>>
>>> 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work.
>>> 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like
>>>
>>> I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve.  Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result.  Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way.  When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Ruppert
>>>
>>> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>      
>>>> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful.
>>>>
>>>> -Adrian
>>>>
>>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>>>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>      
>>>>>          
>>>  
>>>      
>
>  

[Tim Ruppert]

You're definitely right about that :)

Cheers,
Ruppert

On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's  group, I won't be able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my desktop anymore.

[Tim Ruppert]

Thanks for the feedback.  I'm going to think on it this weekend and will try and come up with some ideas of how this could work better.  If you could show me some sites that you do like, that would be a big help - then I can see how to get that working in our world.

Cheers,
Ruppert

On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi Tim:
> Since you asked:
>
> I'd like to have a download site where any user, especially a new user, could visit, feel comfortable about the project (and life in general), and then proceed about the business of downloading code. Easy, simple and painless. Yes, the nightly builds are a HUGE step in that direction. Thanks again to everyone who makes this possible. But, lets put that in perspective: That only makes the process of downloading easier.
>
> I'd also like to have a seat on the project's oversight group. I don't understand how a project of this magnitude can continue to grow and prosper without business oriented people helping to guide it. The oversight group (whoever they happen to be) is like a bunch of very clever "foxes" guarding the "chicken coop". (Where the "chicken coop" is the code base.) There is so much more to making software successful than anything clever "foxes" will ever have time to consider.
>
> Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's  group, I won't be able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my desktop anymore.
>
> Regards,
> Ruth
>
>
> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>> Thanks - again that was super helpful.  
>> I took the time to lay it out like a towel what was there, what looks to be broken when we migrated to the ASF infra and no you wont' go thru it?  There are some obvious spots for you to say something or point to projects you like, but you just continue to roll your eyes.  I didn't push for or want this move to the ASF infra - but I'm still trying to help here.
>>
>> What else do you want here Ruth?  
>> Cheers,
>> Ruppert
>>
>> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> Hi Tim:
>>> I've been through this already. Several times over.
>>>
>>> All I can say at this point is, no one is minding the store. I just don't get it: You guys spend hours agonizing over how and where to put spaces in Java files, yet you can't see the most obvious flaws in how OFBiz does business.
>>>
>>> Oh well...
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Ruth
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>    
>>>> Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for.  Here's what I see when I go to the site(s):
>>>>
>>>> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see:
>>>>
>>>> 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily.
>>>> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page.
>>>> 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built.
>>>>
>>>> Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture:
>>>>
>>>> 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it.
>>>> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page.
>>>>
>>>> Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work.
>>>> 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like
>>>>
>>>> I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve.  Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result.  Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way.  When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Ruppert
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Adrian
>>>>>
>>>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>          
>>>>>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>              
>>>>      
>>
>>  

[Jacques Le Roux-2-2]

Ruth,

For the moment with my broken connection and my rescue solution I can't help much, but when it will be fixed I will have a look at
the situation at the moment

Jacques

From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>

> Hi Jacques:
> That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet.
>
> My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major regression here and no one has said a word (until me, right now)
> about it. That leads me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is the second or third thing anyone interested in OFBiz
> sees...after the splash page.
>
> It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind would bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst
> case: A prospective user leaves the site (with a slight hint suggesting that maybe the code is as disorganized as the web page)
> and downloads some other project's code. Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.
>
> Best case: A prospect user will end up downloading the trunk code, because, on this web page, all roads lead to a trunk download.
> Then, well how much fun is that going to be for a new user who doesn't have a clue where to start? Bye-bye prospect. I tried, but
> code isn't stable enough for my tastes.
>
> And some wonder why there isn't more OFBiz activity out there. Well, I for one am pretty sure I know why.
>
> Regards,
> Ruth
>
> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition, for instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, vs..., etc.
>> We may mimic some of the ways they are doing things. For instance, some time ago Chris Snow asked for a better SEO, I'm not quite
>> sure but I think it'a about exporting the wiki and make Google (and other SEs) knows about it...
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]>
>> Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of
>> attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for.
>> Here's what I see when I go to the site(s):
>>
>> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see:
>>
>> 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily.
>> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page.
>> 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built.
>>
>> Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture:
>>
>> 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over.
>> -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it.
>> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page.
>>
>> Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you:
>>
>> 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work.
>> 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like
>>
>> I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to
>> improve.  Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result.  Btw,
>> all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way.
>> When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's
>> at least acknowledge those.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ruppert
>>
>> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>
>>> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful.
>>>
>>> -Adrian
>>>
>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder
>>>> new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>>> [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>
>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi Jacques:
Can't ask for much more.
Regards,
Ruth

Jacques Le Roux wrote:

> Ruth,
>
> For the moment with my broken connection and my rescue solution I
> can't help much, but when it will be fixed I will have a look at
> the situation at the moment
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>
>> Hi Jacques:
>> That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet.
>>
>> My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major
>> regression here and no one has said a word (until me, right now)
>> about it. That leads me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is
>> the second or third thing anyone interested in OFBiz
>> sees...after the splash page.
>>
>> It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind
>> would bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst
>> case: A prospective user leaves the site (with a slight hint
>> suggesting that maybe the code is as disorganized as the web page)
>> and downloads some other project's code. Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't
>> touch it with a 10 foot pole.
>>
>> Best case: A prospect user will end up downloading the trunk code,
>> because, on this web page, all roads lead to a trunk download.
>> Then, well how much fun is that going to be for a new user who
>> doesn't have a clue where to start? Bye-bye prospect. I tried, but
>> code isn't stable enough for my tastes.
>>
>> And some wonder why there isn't more OFBiz activity out there. Well,
>> I for one am pretty sure I know why.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>>
>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition,
>>> for instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, vs..., etc.
>>> We may mimic some of the ways they are doing things. For instance,
>>> some time ago Chris Snow asked for a better SEO, I'm not quite
>>> sure but I think it'a about exporting the wiki and make Google (and
>>> other SEs) knows about it...
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]>
>>> Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message
>>> - so against my general nature of responding to this type of
>>> attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that
>>> will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for.
>>> Here's what I see when I go to the site(s):
>>>
>>> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and
>>> testing anything - just looking at what I see:
>>>
>>> 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily.
>>> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on
>>> this page.
>>> 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built.
>>>
>>> Then I go to here -
>>> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a
>>> slightly different picture:
>>>
>>> 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another
>>> copy after it was moved over.
>>> -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it.
>>> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that
>>> first page.
>>>
>>> Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super
>>> important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you:
>>>
>>> 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work.
>>> 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like
>>>
>>> I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've
>>> sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to
>>> improve.  Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like
>>> and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result.  Btw,
>>> all of those other options are not the same type of community driven
>>> projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way.
>>> When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project,
>>> there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's
>>> at least acknowledge those.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Ruppert
>>>
>>> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>>
>>>> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to
>>>> know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful.
>>>>
>>>> -Adrian
>>>>
>>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing
>>>>> keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder
>>>>> new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as
>>>>> their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword
>>>>> "myofbiz"
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi Tim:
It is so much easier to "wing my salvos" from over here!
Regards,
Ruth

Tim Ruppert wrote:

> You're definitely right about that :)
>
> Cheers,
> Ruppert
>
> On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>  
>> Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's  group, I won't be able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my desktop anymore.
>>    
>
>  

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi Tim:
I'm a little surprised. I thought we went through this a while back
(maybe a few months ago) and the answer was: "the site is targeted at
project committers". I left that discussion with the impression that was
the last word. Are you saying that you might be open to discussing this
again?
Regards,
Ruth

Tim Ruppert wrote:

> Thanks for the feedback.  I'm going to think on it this weekend and will try and come up with some ideas of how this could work better.  If you could show me some sites that you do like, that would be a big help - then I can see how to get that working in our world.
>
> Cheers,
> Ruppert
>
> On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>  
>> Hi Tim:
>> Since you asked:
>>
>> I'd like to have a download site where any user, especially a new user, could visit, feel comfortable about the project (and life in general), and then proceed about the business of downloading code. Easy, simple and painless. Yes, the nightly builds are a HUGE step in that direction. Thanks again to everyone who makes this possible. But, lets put that in perspective: That only makes the process of downloading easier.
>>
>> I'd also like to have a seat on the project's oversight group. I don't understand how a project of this magnitude can continue to grow and prosper without business oriented people helping to guide it. The oversight group (whoever they happen to be) is like a bunch of very clever "foxes" guarding the "chicken coop". (Where the "chicken coop" is the code base.) There is so much more to making software successful than anything clever "foxes" will ever have time to consider.
>>
>> Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's  group, I won't be able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my desktop anymore.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>>
>>
>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>    
>>> Thanks - again that was super helpful.  
>>> I took the time to lay it out like a towel what was there, what looks to be broken when we migrated to the ASF infra and no you wont' go thru it?  There are some obvious spots for you to say something or point to projects you like, but you just continue to roll your eyes.  I didn't push for or want this move to the ASF infra - but I'm still trying to help here.
>>>
>>> What else do you want here Ruth?  
>>> Cheers,
>>> Ruppert
>>>
>>> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>      
>>>> Hi Tim:
>>>> I've been through this already. Several times over.
>>>>
>>>> All I can say at this point is, no one is minding the store. I just don't get it: You guys spend hours agonizing over how and where to put spaces in Java files, yet you can't see the most obvious flaws in how OFBiz does business.
>>>>
>>>> Oh well...
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>>>> Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for.  Here's what I see when I go to the site(s):
>>>>>
>>>>> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily.
>>>>> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page.
>>>>> 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it.
>>>>> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work.
>>>>> 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve.  Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result.  Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way.  When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>      
>>>>>          
>>>>>> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Adrian
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>          
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>      
>>>>>          
>>>  
>>>      
>
>  

[Adrian Crum-2]

--- On Fri, 2/5/10, Ruth Hoffman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'd also like to have a seat on the project's oversight
> group.

Apache OFBiz is based on meritocracy - there is no oversight group. We are all peers and volunteers.

http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy

> I don't understand how a project of this magnitude
> can continue to grow and prosper without business oriented
> people helping to guide it.

There are business oriented people guiding it. Many of the committers are or have been business owners.

> There is so much more to making software
> successful than anything clever "foxes" will ever have time
> to consider.

You make it sound as though you have some special insight no one else has. If you feel the project can benefit from your insight, then it would help if you made meaningful contributions in the form of software patches - instead of busying yourself with writing hyperbole.

-Adrian



     

[Jacques Le Roux-2-2]

Ruth,

I think it's because we have this opportunity while moving from Contegix to the ASF support: we will not use the same infrastrucure,
ie new tools, scripts, locations, etc.
But unfortunately (damned ISP I should say) as I said I'm currently not in a position too help much, Hans and Tim are still
volunteering, and maybe some others will help too...

One feeling I have though, PHBs are often pushing this way, note that I did not say that you are a PHB :p
Actually, I agree with you about "our" lack of interest for end user. I think this is due to the nature of OFBiz itself...

But I have no time to comment this more, and I have even the feeling that anyway commenting is not what is making the project
progress. I remember Jacopo having a such speech some months (years?) ago... time goes by...

Jacques

From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>

> Hi Tim:
> I'm a little surprised. I thought we went through this a while back (maybe a few months ago) and the answer was: "the site is
> targeted at project committers". I left that discussion with the impression that was the last word. Are you saying that you might
> be open to discussing this again?
> Regards,
> Ruth
>
> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>> Thanks for the feedback.  I'm going to think on it this weekend and will try and come up with some ideas of how this could work
>> better.  If you could show me some sites that you do like, that would be a big help - then I can see how to get that working in
>> our world.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ruppert
>>
>> On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hi Tim:
>>> Since you asked:
>>>
>>> I'd like to have a download site where any user, especially a new user, could visit, feel comfortable about the project (and
>>> life in general), and then proceed about the business of downloading code. Easy, simple and painless. Yes, the nightly builds
>>> are a HUGE step in that direction. Thanks again to everyone who makes this possible. But, lets put that in perspective: That
>>> only makes the process of downloading easier.
>>>
>>> I'd also like to have a seat on the project's oversight group. I don't understand how a project of this magnitude can continue
>>> to grow and prosper without business oriented people helping to guide it. The oversight group (whoever they happen to be) is
>>> like a bunch of very clever "foxes" guarding the "chicken coop". (Where the "chicken coop" is the code base.) There is so much
>>> more to making software successful than anything clever "foxes" will ever have time to consider.
>>>
>>> Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's  group, I won't be able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my
>>> desktop anymore.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>>
>>>
>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks - again that was super helpful.  I took the time to lay it out like a towel what was there, what looks to be broken when
>>>> we migrated to the ASF infra and no you wont' go thru it?  There are some obvious spots for you to say something or point to
>>>> projects you like, but you just continue to roll your eyes.  I didn't push for or want this move to the ASF infra - but I'm
>>>> still trying to help here.
>>>>
>>>> What else do you want here Ruth?  Cheers,
>>>> Ruppert
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Tim:
>>>>> I've been through this already. Several times over.
>>>>>
>>>>> All I can say at this point is, no one is minding the store. I just don't get it: You guys spend hours agonizing over how and
>>>>> where to put spaces in Java files, yet you can't see the most obvious flaws in how OFBiz does business.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh well...
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this
>>>>>> type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're
>>>>>> looking for.  Here's what I see when I go to the site(s):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily.
>>>>>> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page.
>>>>>> 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there
>>>>>> though from when HotWax was managing it.
>>>>>> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work.
>>>>>> 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone
>>>>>> to improve.  Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result.
>>>>>> Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the
>>>>>> same way.  When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as
>>>>>> drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Adrian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No
>>>>>>>> wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP,
>>>>>>>> Magento...
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>

[Matt Warnock]

My understanding is that the whole site has just changed hosting.  A few
broken links are to be expected.  Doesn't mean no one is minding the
store-- there is a lot to be done and a few things may be discovered as
we go along.  

The primary business is always developing the system-- the website that
demonstrates and documents the system is ancillary.  Kind of like
chewing Linus out because kernel.org has an outage or a broken link when
changing hosting companies.  1) It isn't his main job (maybe not even a
little bit). 2) Nothing is perfect, especially when a major change is
underway.  3) How is someone going to know unless they are told exactly
what the problem is?

Developers are mostly using svn to update, I'd bet.  So a broken
download link would only be apparent to others (mostly first-time users,
as you say).  Logs might mention it, but I don't know anyone that reads
them daily, do you?  Automated log analyzers might help here to report
broken links that developers don't often see.  So let's view this as an
opportunity to improve ancillary parts of the system, which are also
important in that newbies see them first.


On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 13:11 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi Jacques:
> That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet.
>
> My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major
> regression here and no one has said a word (until me, right now) about
> it. That leads me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is the
> second or third thing anyone interested in OFBiz sees...after the splash
> page.
>
> It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind
> would bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst case: A
> prospective user leaves the site (with a slight hint suggesting that
> maybe the code is as disorganized as the web page) and downloads some
> other project's code. Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot
> pole.
>
> Best case: A prospect user will end up downloading the trunk code,
> because, on this web page, all roads lead to a trunk download. Then,
> well how much fun is that going to be for a new user who doesn't have a
> clue where to start? Bye-bye prospect. I tried, but code isn't stable
> enough for my tastes.
>
> And some wonder why there isn't more OFBiz activity out there. Well, I
> for one am pretty sure I know why.
>
> Regards,
> Ruth
>
> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
> > Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition, for
> > instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, vs..., etc.
> > We may mimic some of the ways they are doing things. For instance,
> > some time ago Chris Snow asked for a better SEO, I'm not quite sure
> > but I think it'a about exporting the wiki and make Google (and other
> > SEs) knows about it...
> >
> > Jacques
> >
> > From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]>
> > Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message -
> > so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude,
> > I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us
> > help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see
> > when I go to the site(s):
> >
> > http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and
> > testing anything - just looking at what I see:
> >
> > 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily.
> > 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on
> > this page.
> > 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built.
> >
> > Then I go to here -
> > http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a
> > slightly different picture:
> >
> > 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy
> > after it was moved over.
> > -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it.
> > 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that
> > first page.
> >
> > Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super
> > important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you:
> >
> > 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work.
> > 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like
> >
> > I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've
> > sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve.  
> > Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure
> > you'll be more pleased with the result.  Btw, all of those other
> > options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF,
> > so it's hard to manage the same way.  When commercial interests are
> > more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as
> > well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Ruppert
> >
> > On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
> >
> >> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to
> >> know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful.
> >>
> >> -Adrian
> >>
> >> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
> >>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing
> >>> keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new
> >>> users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their
> >>> browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Ruth
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------
> >>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword
> >>> "myofbiz"
> >>> [hidden email]
> >
> >
> >

--
Matt Warnock <[hidden email]>
RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.

[Chris Snow-3]

Are nightly builds actually used?

Anyone who already does ofbiz development would want to use svn?

Anyone new to ofbiz would only want ofbiz-rel9.04-current.zip or
ofbiz-trunk-current.zip?

Just curious...

Tim Ruppert wrote:

> Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for.  Here's what I see when I go to the site(s):
>
> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see:
>
> 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily.
> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page.
> 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built.
>
> Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture:
>
> 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over.
> -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it.
> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page.
>
> Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you:
>
> 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work.
> 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like
>
> I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve.  Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result.  Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way.  When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those.
>
> Cheers,
> Ruppert
>
> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote:
>
>  
>> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful.
>>
>> -Adrian
>>
>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>    
>>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento...
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>> [hidden email]
>>>      
>
>