[OFBiz] Users - Re: would like to changethe, contentmanagementcomponent of OfBiz

[Rohit Rai]

Rohit,

Your English looks fine, except one little part: instead of "damn too
sluggish" it should probably be "too damn sluggish". I hear you on
this one, that's one of my pet peeves and even OFBiz is a little slow
for me sometimes (wish we could do something about the Tomcat
initialization times for example...).

-David

 

HI! David,

Thanks for the correction!

 

I find the performance of Ofbiz quite satisfactory, specially with the Hardware I use and even on my Thinkpad, it works fine. I mean people here do wonder when I am running and ERP system on a Laptop & I can demonstrate all features, its cool and it is one of the major advantages, I can always tell my clients that "if performs so well on my Laptop think of the performance on dedicated server ;)" I won't at any cost want to loose that for "bells and whistles" or a gr8 "look and feel". It is a wonderful job you people have put in and it should remain that wonderful, always!

 

 

The "performance" is indeed bad. 256 MB RAM is surely not enough for a J2EE
application like OpenLaszlo and Windows. I have a very good performance
experience with Flex on PowerPC G4 1,2GHz with 1280 MB RAM (development
machine, not yet in production).

Your explanations are very welcome : you are the first on this ML reporting
real use of Lazslo and this reinforces some of my "a priori" against Lazslo
and pro Ajax. Althougth (and specialy for this type of think) 256MB on XP is
certainly a bit short.

Hello, Jacques & Oliver,

 

Well, getting that kind of a system (Flex on PowerPC G4 1,2GHz with 1280 MB RAM ) here in India just for a good look and feel will be investing a fortune in getting a needle that just shines bright. Comapnies here use systems with PIV processors as standard servers. Dual Pro system is one of the best you will get if you are approaching a SME. And my point is not against Lazslo, its against the use of Lazslo in Ofbiz, for the reason I mentioned above to David.
 

Another point is not about Flash/SWF being not being non standard or closed. I really don't like the Idea of transferring binary data to the browsers, that too dynamically generated at runtime! Later it can lead to many security loopholes and unstability. ASCII data is my preferred format, I can even test what actually I am getting at the client side on telnet & above all it makes that easy to Debug.

 

About, various UIMLS like XUL, XAML, AUIML, RUIML & ... I am not sure. I mean how much browser support they have? And most are pushed on by their proponents. In such murky wars taking sides is not good for business people. ;)

 

About AJAX browser support, anybrowser that supports JavaScript should be able to support AJAX, ofcourse with some exceptions. For that case we can go along with Google's approach with GMail. a Dual Interface, AJAX + Plain HTML and that should not be too difficult considering AJAX is built over HTML. I would like to hear on this i am not very sure.

 

Regards,

Rohit

 
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[Jacques Le Roux]

Rohit,

>Well, getting that kind of a system (Flex on PowerPC G4 1,2GHz with 1280 MB
>RAM ) here in India just for a good look and feel will be investing a
>fortune in getting a needle that just shines bright. Comapnies here use
>systems with PIV processors as standard servers. Dual Pro system is one of
>the best you will get if you are approaching a SME. And my point is not
>against Lazslo, its against the use of Lazslo in Ofbiz, for the reason I
>mentioned above to David.

I reassure you, it's also the kind of tools (Dell 5100 and such) SME use too
here in France (south of France to be precise), but 256MB is not much in
ending 2005 you must admit ! At least for a server. If you really work on
OFBiz with Eclipse on XP, 512MB seems a minima, 1024MB is great, with Linux
you may use less memory ;o) Memory is not so expensive at the moment,  isn't
?

>Another point is not about Flash/SWF being not being non standard
>or closed.

To construct SWF what tool will be used ? Without talking about graphic
competences...
And I think that the difference between a commercial and an open source
technology have to be mentionned !

>I really don't like the Idea of transferring binary data to the browsers,
>that too dynamically generated at runtime! Later it can lead to many
>security loopholes and unstability. ASCII data is my preferred format,
>I can even test what actually I am getting at the client side on telnet
>& above all it makes that easy to Debug.

I'm not sure about security loopholes and unstability but that's another
point, good that you mention it, thanks.

>About AJAX browser support, anybrowser that supports JavaScript should be
>able to support AJAX, ofcourse with some exceptions. For that case we can
> go along with Google's approach with GMail. a Dual Interface, AJAX + Plain
> HTML >and that should not be too difficult considering AJAX is built over
HTML.

I think also that Ajax seems the best candidate, because we need something
looking like a Windows interface (or Swing or Mac or Gnome or KDE, etc.) not
something too complicated (I think mainly about the graphic part involved in
Flash).

> I would like to hear on this i am not very sure.

Perhaps I'm wrong, because I must admit that I have never used Flash nor
Lazslo, thoughts ?

Jacques


----- Original Message ----- From: Rohit Rai
Rohit,

Your English looks fine, except one little part: instead of "damn too
sluggish" it should probably be "too damn sluggish". I hear you on
this one, that's one of my pet peeves and even OFBiz is a little slow
for me sometimes (wish we could do something about the Tomcat
initialization times for example...).

-David

HI! David,
Thanks for the correction!

I find the performance of Ofbiz quite satisfactory, specially with the
Hardware I use and even on my Thinkpad, it works fine. I mean people here do
wonder when I am running and ERP system on a Laptop & I can demonstrate all
features, its cool and it is one of the major advantages, I can always tell
my clients that "if performs so well on my Laptop think of the performance
on dedicated server ;)" I won't at any cost want to loose that for "bells
and whistles" or a gr8 "look and feel". It is a wonderful job you people
have put in and it should remain that wonderful, always!


The "performance" is indeed bad. 256 MB RAM is surely not enough for a J2EE
application like OpenLaszlo and Windows. I have a very good performance
experience with Flex on PowerPC G4 1,2GHz with 1280 MB RAM (development
machine, not yet in production).
Your explanations are very welcome : you are the first on this ML reporting
real use of Lazslo and this reinforces some of my "a priori" against Lazslo
and pro Ajax. Althougth (and specialy for this type of think) 256MB on XP is
certainly a bit short.

Hello, Jacques & Oliver,

Well, getting that kind of a system (Flex on PowerPC G4 1,2GHz with 1280 MB
RAM ) here in India just for a good look and feel will be investing a
fortune in getting a needle that just shines bright. Comapnies here use
systems with PIV processors as standard servers. Dual Pro system is one of
the best you will get if you are approaching a SME. And my point is not
against Lazslo, its against the use of Lazslo in Ofbiz, for the reason I
mentioned above to David.

Another point is not about Flash/SWF being not being non standard or closed.
I really don't like the Idea of transferring binary data to the browsers,
that too dynamically generated at runtime! Later it can lead to many
security loopholes and unstability. ASCII data is my preferred format, I can
even test what actually I am getting at the client side on telnet & above
all it makes that easy to Debug.

About, various UIMLS like XUL, XAML, AUIML, RUIML & ... I am not sure. I
mean how much browser support they have? And most are pushed on by their
proponents. In such murky wars taking sides is not good for business people.
;)

About AJAX browser support, anybrowser that supports JavaScript should be
able to support AJAX, ofcourse with some exceptions. For that case we can go
along with Google's approach with GMail. a Dual Interface, AJAX + Plain HTML
and that should not be too difficult considering AJAX is built over HTML. I
would like to hear on this i am not very sure.

Regards,
Rohit




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[Oliver Lietz-2]

Am Sonntag, 4. September 2005 22:53 schrieb Jacques Le Roux:
[...]
> >Another point is not about Flash/SWF being not being non standard
> >or closed.
>
> To construct SWF what tool will be used ? Without talking about graphic
> competences...

Flex and Laszlo both render XML to SWF.

> And I think that the difference between a commercial and an open source
> technology have to be mentionned !

Yes, Flex is a commercial closed source product and pricing starts at $15,000.
It doesn't really fit in an open source project. But Flex is in some
important points superior to Laszlo.

> >I really don't like the Idea of transferring binary data to the browsers,
> >that too dynamically generated at runtime! Later it can lead to many
> >security loopholes and unstability. ASCII data is my preferred format,
> >I can even test what actually I am getting at the client side on telnet
> >& above all it makes that easy to Debug.
>
> I'm not sure about security loopholes and unstability but that's another
> point, good that you mention it, thanks.

Security is not that problem. It doesn't matter if your client uses HTML or
SWF (or any other binary format). You can't simply trust input from users and
you have to secure your backend application.

> >About AJAX browser support, anybrowser that supports JavaScript should be
> >able to support AJAX, ofcourse with some exceptions. For that case we can
> > go along with Google's approach with GMail. a Dual Interface, AJAX +
> > Plain HTML >and that should not be too difficult considering AJAX is
> > built over HTML.

Yes plain HTML - that would be nice for the frontend of OFBiz's ecommerce
application. It doesn't work with disabled JavaScript at the moment (see my
"ecommerce UI" posting on dev list).

> I think also that Ajax seems the best candidate, because we need something
> looking like a Windows interface (or Swing or Mac or Gnome or KDE, etc.)
> not something too complicated (I think mainly about the graphic part
> involved in Flash).

Look at:
http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/flex/example_apps.html
http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mc/archives/FlexStyleExplorer.html

The examples show where Flash is today.

Oliver



 
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[Andrew Sykes]

Jacques, Rohit,

I would agree with a lot of the objections to Flash already mentioned.

But one thing that has always struck me as strange with Flash is the
need to compile binaries on the fly.

Flash has reasonably good ECMA script support (Action Script) with
plenty scope to build multilayered file includes etc. It's fairly easy
to write some XML rendering code and I believe there are pretty good
open source libs of Action Script out there. So what's the need to waste
server time and build huge bandwidth bottlenecks with something like
Laszlo?

It would be great to know everyone's opinions...
--
Andrew Sykes <[hidden email]>
Sykes Development Ltd

 
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[Jacques Le Roux]

Andrew,

>So what's the need to waste
> server time and build huge bandwidth bottlenecks with something like
> Laszlo?

That's right, it's the same for Flash and there is plenty of it everywhere,
did you not notice ;o)

I use FlashBlock on Firefox !

Jacques


----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Sykes" <[hidden email]>
To: "OFBiz Users / Usage Discussion" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: [OFBiz] Users - Flash! Ah-ah!

> Jacques, Rohit,
>
> I would agree with a lot of the objections to Flash already mentioned.
>
> But one thing that has always struck me as strange with Flash is the
> need to compile binaries on the fly.
>
> Flash has reasonably good ECMA script support (Action Script) with
> plenty scope to build multilayered file includes etc. It's fairly easy
> to write some XML rendering code and I believe there are pretty good
> open source libs of Action Script out there. So what's the need to waste
> server time and build huge bandwidth bottlenecks with something like
> Laszlo?
>
> It would be great to know everyone's opinions...
> --
> Andrew Sykes <[hidden email]>
> Sykes Development Ltd
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

 
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[Jacques Le Roux]

Olivier,

Ouuuu, sorry but your examples do not help your cause.

Without speaking of the demos (brocade video : more than 1 (one!) minute to
load on my Inspiron 8000 (1Ghz, 512MB, ADSL 512k)

http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mc/archives/FlexStyleExplorer.html needs 23
sec to load on the same machine... And I can't use any clipboard functions
(I use a lot of copy on Internet, don't you ?)
And more, you have to wait between each "tabs". Ok it's *not trivial* and
yes,
it's *very pretty* !

> Yes plain HTML - that would be nice for the frontend of OFBiz's ecommerce
> application.

Oups, I did no read all the message before writing the above response. So
you are OK with us :o)

>It doesn't work with disabled JavaScript at the moment (see my
> "ecommerce UI" posting on dev list).

Yes that's interesting has I said before. But I'm just learning CSS through
Designing with Web Standards by Jeffrey Zeldman...

. I made a little enhancement
(http://jira.undersunconsulting.com/browse/OFBIZ-380) but it's still not
merged, I don't know why...


Jacques

PS : Olivier please don't use cc : I'm already on the OFBiz ML ;o) It fools
me everytime (responding only to you), thanks...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Oliver Lietz" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Jacques Le Roux" <[hidden email]>; "Rohit Rai"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [OFBiz] Users - Re: would like to
changethe,contentmanagementcomponent of OfBiz

> Am Sonntag, 4. September 2005 22:53 schrieb Jacques Le Roux:
> [...]
> > >Another point is not about Flash/SWF being not being non standard
> > >or closed.
> >
> > To construct SWF what tool will be used ? Without talking about graphic
> > competences...
>
> Flex and Laszlo both render XML to SWF.
>
> > And I think that the difference between a commercial and an open source
> > technology have to be mentionned !
>
> Yes, Flex is a commercial closed source product and pricing starts at

$15,000.
> It doesn't really fit in an open source project. But Flex is in some
> important points superior to Laszlo.
>
> > >I really don't like the Idea of transferring binary data to the
browsers,
> > >that too dynamically generated at runtime! Later it can lead to many
> > >security loopholes and unstability. ASCII data is my preferred format,
> > >I can even test what actually I am getting at the client side on telnet
> > >& above all it makes that easy to Debug.
> >
> > I'm not sure about security loopholes and unstability but that's another
> > point, good that you mention it, thanks.
>
> Security is not that problem. It doesn't matter if your client uses HTML
or
> SWF (or any other binary format). You can't simply trust input from users
and
> you have to secure your backend application.
>
> > >About AJAX browser support, anybrowser that supports JavaScript should
be
> > >able to support AJAX, ofcourse with some exceptions. For that case we
can
> > > go along with Google's approach with GMail. a Dual Interface, AJAX +
> > > Plain HTML >and that should not be too difficult considering AJAX is
> > > built over HTML.
>
> Yes plain HTML - that would be nice for the frontend of OFBiz's ecommerce
> application. It doesn't work with disabled JavaScript at the moment (see
my
> "ecommerce UI" posting on dev list).
>
> > I think also that Ajax seems the best candidate, because we need
something

> > looking like a Windows interface (or Swing or Mac or Gnome or KDE, etc.)
> > not something too complicated (I think mainly about the graphic part
> > involved in Flash).
>
> Look at:
> http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/flex/example_apps.html
> http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mc/archives/FlexStyleExplorer.html
>
> The examples show where Flash is today.
>
> Oliver
>
>

 
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