Possible Payments Applied Transaction Error
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Hi Everyone
I've just run through a test with the online Hotwax Demo and found what I think is an accounting transaction error with applying payments. I created a Sales Order using DemoCustomer through the store and chose the offline payment method. I then logged into OFBiz using admin to view the Sales Order and receive the offline payment. I then did a Quick Ship Entire Order. This then created the accounting transactions. The 'Sales Shipment' and 'Sales Invoice' transactions are fine but the Payment Applied transaction Credits and then Debits the Accounts Receivable account only (so takes money out of and puts it back into the same GL account in the same transaction) – which seems a bit strange to me. I think it should Credit Accounts Receivable and Debit Undeposited Receipts or the Company Bank Account. Am I missing something? Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks Sharan |
Re: Possible Payments Applied Transaction Error
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Hi,
From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]> > > Hi Everyone > > I've just run through a test with the online Hotwax Demo and found what I > think is an accounting transaction error with applying payments. > > I created a Sales Order using DemoCustomer through the store and chose the > offline payment method. > > I then logged into OFBiz using admin to view the Sales Order and receive the > offline payment. > I then did a Quick Ship Entire Order. This then created the accounting > transactions. > > The 'Sales Shipment' and 'Sales Invoice' transactions are fine but the > Payment Applied transaction Credits and then Debits the Accounts > Receivable account only (so takes money out of and puts it back into the > same GL account in the same transaction) – which seems a bit strange to me. > > I think it should Credit Accounts Receivable and Debit Undeposited Receipts > or the Company Bank Account. Am I missing something? From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounts_receivable, I read <<To record a journal entry for a sale on account, one must debit a receivable and credit a revenue account. When the customer pays off their accounts, one debits cash and credits the receivable in the journal entry. The ending balance on the trial balance sheet for accounts receivable is always debit.>> You see they don't speak about UNDEPOSITED RECEIPTS In a similar invoice than yours I see 2 debits and 1 credit to ACCOUNTS_RECEIVABLE 120000 ACCOUNTS RECEIVABLE CURRENT_ASSET so for me it seems ok : <<The ending balance on the trial balance sheet for accounts receivable is always debit.>> BTW if you look at https://localhost:8443/accounting/control/TrialBalance?organizationPartyId=Company it should be ok (UNDEPOSITED RECEIPTS should be credited with the cash received) My 2 cents (I'm not an accountant, I'm French : we don't use exactly the same type of accounting here, I work as an independent so I don't use double entries accounting as I'm allowed to use simple accounting -collections and disbursements-, so I may be wrong, somewhere) Jacques > Any feedback would be appreciated. > > Thanks > Sharan > > -- > View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Possible-Payments-Applied-Transaction-Error-tp18249013p18249013.html > Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > |
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Un grand merci monsieur
I'm not an accountant either so I'm getting a local accountant to give me their feedback. I've taken a look at your links and I think the key to the problem is about the timing of the creation of the Sales Invoice. It probably depends on when you can officially/legally record that a sale has taken place. I'll let you know what I find out. Thanks again Sharan
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Hi Everyone
I'm not sure if this is applicable everywhere but just for information I wanted to let you know the feedback I got from a local accountant. If a customer buys something and pays for it in advance. The transaction should debit your cash account (or bank account) and credit a Customer Deposit or 'Prepayment' Liability account. Accounts Receivable technically is only applicable if you supply the goods first and then bill the customer afterwards. How and when the Tax Invoice is created really important as this is the trigger for the when you can classify it as a sale. I'll amend my Ofbiz setup to reflect this. Thanks Sharan
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Re: Possible Payments Applied Transaction Error
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Administrator
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Sharan,
This is a very interestng point. I'm really interested in this, as I want to introduce it also https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-287 Could we share work on this ? BTW here are some clues : http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/OFBiz+Contributors+Best+Practices Thanks Jacques From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]> > > Hi Everyone > > I'm not sure if this is applicable everywhere but just for information I > wanted to let you know the feedback I got from a local accountant. > > If a customer buys something and pays for it in advance. The transaction > should debit your cash account (or bank account) and credit a Customer > Deposit or 'Prepayment' Liability account. > > Accounts Receivable technically is only applicable if you supply the goods > first and then bill the customer afterwards. > > How and when the Tax Invoice is created really important as this is the > trigger for the when you can classify it as a sale. > > I'll amend my Ofbiz setup to reflect this. > > Thanks > Sharan > > > Sharan-F wrote: >> >> Un grand merci monsieur >> >> I'm not an accountant either so I'm getting a local accountant to give me >> their feedback. >> >> I've taken a look at your links and I think the key to the problem is >> about the timing of the creation of the Sales Invoice. It probably depends >> on when you can officially/legally record that a sale has taken place. >> >> I'll let you know what I find out. >> >> Thanks again >> Sharan >> >> >> jacques.le.roux wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]> >>>> >>>> Hi Everyone >>>> >>>> I've just run through a test with the online Hotwax Demo and found what >>>> I >>>> think is an accounting transaction error with applying payments. >>>> >>>> I created a Sales Order using DemoCustomer through the store and chose >>>> the >>>> offline payment method. >>>> >>>> I then logged into OFBiz using admin to view the Sales Order and receive >>>> the >>>> offline payment. >>>> I then did a Quick Ship Entire Order. This then created the accounting >>>> transactions. >>>> >>>> The 'Sales Shipment' and 'Sales Invoice' transactions are fine but the >>>> Payment Applied transaction Credits and then Debits the Accounts >>>> Receivable account only (so takes money out of and puts it back into the >>>> same GL account in the same transaction) – which seems a bit strange to >>>> me. >>>> >>>> I think it should Credit Accounts Receivable and Debit Undeposited >>>> Receipts >>>> or the Company Bank Account. Am I missing something? >>> >>> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounts_receivable, I read >>> <<To record a journal entry for a sale on account, one must debit a >>> receivable and credit a revenue account. When the customer pays >>> off their accounts, one debits cash and credits the receivable in the >>> journal entry. The ending balance on the trial balance sheet >>> for accounts receivable is always debit.>> You see they don't speak about >>> UNDEPOSITED RECEIPTS >>> >>> In a similar invoice than yours I see 2 debits and 1 credit to >>> ACCOUNTS_RECEIVABLE 120000 ACCOUNTS RECEIVABLE CURRENT_ASSET so for >>> me it seems ok : <<The ending balance on the trial balance sheet for >>> accounts receivable is always debit.>> >>> >>> BTW if you look at >>> https://localhost:8443/accounting/control/TrialBalance?organizationPartyId=Company >>> it should be ok (UNDEPOSITED >>> RECEIPTS should be credited with the cash received) >>> >>> My 2 cents (I'm not an accountant, I'm French : we don't use exactly the >>> same type of accounting here, I work as an independent so I >>> don't use double entries accounting as I'm allowed to use simple >>> accounting -collections and disbursements-, so I may be wrong, >>> somewhere) >>> >>> Jacques >>> >>>> Any feedback would be appreciated. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> Sharan >>>> >>>> -- >>>> View this message in context: >>>> http://www.nabble.com/Possible-Payments-Applied-Transaction-Error-tp18249013p18249013.html >>>> Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > -- > View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Possible-Payments-Applied-Transaction-Error-tp18249013p18394644.html > Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > |
Re: Possible Payments Applied Transaction Error
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In reply to this post by Sharan-F
Désolé Sharan,
Je n'avais pas remarqué votre réponse. My apologies Jacques From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]> > > Un grand merci monsieur > > I'm not an accountant either so I'm getting a local accountant to give me > their feedback. > > I've taken a look at your links and I think the key to the problem is about > the timing of the creation of the Sales Invoice. It probably depends on when > you can officially/legally record that a sale has taken place. > > I'll let you know what I find out. > > Thanks again > Sharan > > > jacques.le.roux wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]> >>> >>> Hi Everyone >>> >>> I've just run through a test with the online Hotwax Demo and found what I >>> think is an accounting transaction error with applying payments. >>> >>> I created a Sales Order using DemoCustomer through the store and chose >>> the >>> offline payment method. >>> >>> I then logged into OFBiz using admin to view the Sales Order and receive >>> the >>> offline payment. >>> I then did a Quick Ship Entire Order. This then created the accounting >>> transactions. >>> >>> The 'Sales Shipment' and 'Sales Invoice' transactions are fine but the >>> Payment Applied transaction Credits and then Debits the Accounts >>> Receivable account only (so takes money out of and puts it back into the >>> same GL account in the same transaction) – which seems a bit strange to >>> me. >>> >>> I think it should Credit Accounts Receivable and Debit Undeposited >>> Receipts >>> or the Company Bank Account. Am I missing something? >> >> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounts_receivable, I read >> <<To record a journal entry for a sale on account, one must debit a >> receivable and credit a revenue account. When the customer pays >> off their accounts, one debits cash and credits the receivable in the >> journal entry. The ending balance on the trial balance sheet >> for accounts receivable is always debit.>> You see they don't speak about >> UNDEPOSITED RECEIPTS >> >> In a similar invoice than yours I see 2 debits and 1 credit to >> ACCOUNTS_RECEIVABLE 120000 ACCOUNTS RECEIVABLE CURRENT_ASSET so for >> me it seems ok : <<The ending balance on the trial balance sheet for >> accounts receivable is always debit.>> >> >> BTW if you look at >> https://localhost:8443/accounting/control/TrialBalance?organizationPartyId=Company >> it should be ok (UNDEPOSITED >> RECEIPTS should be credited with the cash received) >> >> My 2 cents (I'm not an accountant, I'm French : we don't use exactly the >> same type of accounting here, I work as an independent so I >> don't use double entries accounting as I'm allowed to use simple >> accounting -collections and disbursements-, so I may be wrong, >> somewhere) >> >> Jacques >> >>> Any feedback would be appreciated. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Sharan >>> >>> -- >>> View this message in context: >>> http://www.nabble.com/Possible-Payments-Applied-Transaction-Error-tp18249013p18249013.html >>> Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>> >>> >> >> >> > > -- > View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Possible-Payments-Applied-Transaction-Error-tp18249013p18326667.html > Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > |
Re: Possible Payments Applied Transaction Error
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Administrator
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In reply to this post by Jacques Le Roux
Hi Sharan,
Inline... From: "Jacques Le Roux" <[hidden email]> > Sharan, > > This is a very interestng point. I'm really interested in this, as I want to introduce it also > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-287 > Could we share work on this ? BTW here are some clues : http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/OFBiz+Contributors+Best+Practices > > Thanks > > Jacques > > From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]> >> >> Hi Everyone >> >> I'm not sure if this is applicable everywhere but just for information I >> wanted to let you know the feedback I got from a local accountant. >> >> If a customer buys something and pays for it in advance. The transaction >> should debit your cash account (or bank account) and credit a Customer >> Deposit or 'Prepayment' Liability account. >> >> Accounts Receivable technically is only applicable if you supply the goods >> first and then bill the customer afterwards. >> >> How and when the Tax Invoice is created really important as this is the >> trigger for the when you can classify it as a sale. >> >> I'll amend my Ofbiz setup to reflect this. How do you expect to do that ? Without coding ? Will you use debit 111500 CERTIFICATES OF DEPOSIT (???) credit 213500 CUSTOMER DEPOSIT ACCOUNT Or will you add new accounts ? BTW, here in France I guess it would be (IANAA). For goods only debit 512 - Banque credit 4191 - Avances et acomptes reçus sur commande. I read that, in case of services it's a bit more complex. Because of VAT, you must have also. debit 44580 Etat, TVA à régulariser credit44571 Etat, TVA collectée I know you speak French and have knowledge about European accounting rules. This is why I allow myself this digression. I'm interested by your opinion... Thanks Jacques >> Thanks >> Sharan >> >> >> Sharan-F wrote: >>> >>> Un grand merci monsieur >>> >>> I'm not an accountant either so I'm getting a local accountant to give me >>> their feedback. >>> >>> I've taken a look at your links and I think the key to the problem is >>> about the timing of the creation of the Sales Invoice. It probably depends >>> on when you can officially/legally record that a sale has taken place. >>> >>> I'll let you know what I find out. >>> >>> Thanks again >>> Sharan >>> >>> >>> jacques.le.roux wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Everyone >>>>> >>>>> I've just run through a test with the online Hotwax Demo and found what >>>>> I >>>>> think is an accounting transaction error with applying payments. >>>>> >>>>> I created a Sales Order using DemoCustomer through the store and chose >>>>> the >>>>> offline payment method. >>>>> >>>>> I then logged into OFBiz using admin to view the Sales Order and receive >>>>> the >>>>> offline payment. >>>>> I then did a Quick Ship Entire Order. This then created the accounting >>>>> transactions. >>>>> >>>>> The 'Sales Shipment' and 'Sales Invoice' transactions are fine but the >>>>> Payment Applied transaction Credits and then Debits the Accounts >>>>> Receivable account only (so takes money out of and puts it back into the >>>>> same GL account in the same transaction) – which seems a bit strange to >>>>> me. >>>>> >>>>> I think it should Credit Accounts Receivable and Debit Undeposited >>>>> Receipts >>>>> or the Company Bank Account. Am I missing something? >>>> >>>> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounts_receivable, I read >>>> <<To record a journal entry for a sale on account, one must debit a >>>> receivable and credit a revenue account. When the customer pays >>>> off their accounts, one debits cash and credits the receivable in the >>>> journal entry. The ending balance on the trial balance sheet >>>> for accounts receivable is always debit.>> You see they don't speak about >>>> UNDEPOSITED RECEIPTS >>>> >>>> In a similar invoice than yours I see 2 debits and 1 credit to >>>> ACCOUNTS_RECEIVABLE 120000 ACCOUNTS RECEIVABLE CURRENT_ASSET so for >>>> me it seems ok : <<The ending balance on the trial balance sheet for >>>> accounts receivable is always debit.>> >>>> >>>> BTW if you look at >>>> https://localhost:8443/accounting/control/TrialBalance?organizationPartyId=Company >>>> it should be ok (UNDEPOSITED >>>> RECEIPTS should be credited with the cash received) >>>> >>>> My 2 cents (I'm not an accountant, I'm French : we don't use exactly the >>>> same type of accounting here, I work as an independent so I >>>> don't use double entries accounting as I'm allowed to use simple >>>> accounting -collections and disbursements-, so I may be wrong, >>>> somewhere) >>>> >>>> Jacques >>>> >>>>> Any feedback would be appreciated. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> Sharan >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> View this message in context: >>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Possible-Payments-Applied-Transaction-Error-tp18249013p18249013.html >>>>> Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Possible-Payments-Applied-Transaction-Error-tp18249013p18394644.html >> Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> > |
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Hi Jacques
Without Coding I would use Debit 112000 Undeposited Receipts Credit 213000 Customer Deposit Accounts Undeposited Receipts because there still may be delay in receiving the money into the company main bank account even though the customer has paid. Also bank statement reconciliation is a really important – so you may not want transactions posting to your GL bank account if you havent fully checked them. Your french equivalent accounting journals look good – but once again its comes down to reconciliation. The GL account you use to mirror your company bank account needs to do exactly that. For VAT we have something similar. You need to keep a track of GST you have paid (expenses and purchase orders etc) and the GST you have collected as part of your sales. The difference is what you need to pay to the government. I'll need to investigate the tax setup in OFBiz a bit more as I want to understand the overlap of general accounting and tax authorities setup. Just for information – I've (hopefully) included an attachment showing my planned testing scenario and my proposed configuration changes. I havent tested it yet – so it may not work! test_jacques.html Thanks Sharan
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Re: Possible Payments Applied Transaction Error
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Administrator
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Thanks Sharan,
I will have no time to look at it seriously before Thursday 24. But then I will. BTW, scenarios and use cases are great ways do deal with sort ot things :o) Jacques From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]> > > Hi Jacques > > Without Coding I would use > > Debit 112000 Undeposited Receipts > Credit 213000 Customer Deposit Accounts > > Undeposited Receipts because there still may be delay in receiving the money > into the company main bank account even though the customer has paid. Also > bank statement reconciliation is a really important – so you may not want > transactions posting to your GL bank account if you havent fully checked > them. > > Your french equivalent accounting journals look good – but once again its > comes down to reconciliation. The GL account you use to mirror your company > bank account needs to do exactly that. > > For VAT we have something similar. You need to keep a track of GST you have > paid (expenses and purchase orders etc) and the GST you have collected as > part of your sales. The difference is what you need to pay to the > government. > > I'll need to investigate the tax setup in OFBiz a bit more as I want to > understand the overlap of general accounting and tax authorities setup. > > Just for information – I've (hopefully) included an attachment showing my > planned testing scenario and my proposed configuration changes. I havent > tested it yet – so it may not work! > > http://www.nabble.com/file/p18457719/test_jacques.html test_jacques.html > > Thanks > Sharan > > > jacques.le.roux wrote: >> >> Hi Sharan, >> >> Inline... >> >> From: "Jacques Le Roux" <[hidden email]> >>> Sharan, >>> >>> This is a very interestng point. I'm really interested in this, as I want >>> to introduce it also >>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-287 >>> Could we share work on this ? BTW here are some clues : >>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/OFBiz+Contributors+Best+Practices >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Jacques >>> >>> From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]> >>>> >>>> Hi Everyone >>>> >>>> I'm not sure if this is applicable everywhere but just for information I >>>> wanted to let you know the feedback I got from a local accountant. >>>> >>>> If a customer buys something and pays for it in advance. The transaction >>>> should debit your cash account (or bank account) and credit a Customer >>>> Deposit or 'Prepayment' Liability account. >>>> >>>> Accounts Receivable technically is only applicable if you supply the >>>> goods >>>> first and then bill the customer afterwards. >>>> >>>> How and when the Tax Invoice is created really important as this is the >>>> trigger for the when you can classify it as a sale. >>>> >>>> I'll amend my Ofbiz setup to reflect this. >> >> How do you expect to do that ? Without coding ? >> Will you use >> debit 111500 CERTIFICATES OF DEPOSIT (???) >> credit 213500 CUSTOMER DEPOSIT ACCOUNT >> Or will you add new accounts ? >> >> BTW, here in France I guess it would be (IANAA). >> For goods only >> debit 512 - Banque >> credit 4191 - Avances et acomptes reçus sur commande. >> >> I read that, in case of services it's a bit more complex. Because of VAT, >> you must have also. >> debit 44580 Etat, TVA à régulariser >> credit44571 Etat, TVA collectée >> >> I know you speak French and have knowledge about European accounting >> rules. This is why I allow myself this digression. I'm >> interested by your opinion... >> >> Thanks >> >> Jacques >> >>>> Thanks >>>> Sharan >>>> >>>> >>>> Sharan-F wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Un grand merci monsieur >>>>> >>>>> I'm not an accountant either so I'm getting a local accountant to give >>>>> me >>>>> their feedback. >>>>> >>>>> I've taken a look at your links and I think the key to the problem is >>>>> about the timing of the creation of the Sales Invoice. It probably >>>>> depends >>>>> on when you can officially/legally record that a sale has taken place. >>>>> >>>>> I'll let you know what I find out. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again >>>>> Sharan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> jacques.le.roux wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Everyone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've just run through a test with the online Hotwax Demo and found >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> think is an accounting transaction error with applying payments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I created a Sales Order using DemoCustomer through the store and >>>>>>> chose >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> offline payment method. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I then logged into OFBiz using admin to view the Sales Order and >>>>>>> receive >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> offline payment. >>>>>>> I then did a Quick Ship Entire Order. This then created the >>>>>>> accounting >>>>>>> transactions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The 'Sales Shipment' and 'Sales Invoice' transactions are fine but >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> Payment Applied transaction Credits and then Debits the Accounts >>>>>>> Receivable account only (so takes money out of and puts it back into >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> same GL account in the same transaction) – which seems a bit strange >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think it should Credit Accounts Receivable and Debit Undeposited >>>>>>> Receipts >>>>>>> or the Company Bank Account. Am I missing something? >>>>>> >>>>>> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounts_receivable, I read >>>>>> <<To record a journal entry for a sale on account, one must debit a >>>>>> receivable and credit a revenue account. When the customer pays >>>>>> off their accounts, one debits cash and credits the receivable in the >>>>>> journal entry. The ending balance on the trial balance sheet >>>>>> for accounts receivable is always debit.>> You see they don't speak >>>>>> about >>>>>> UNDEPOSITED RECEIPTS >>>>>> >>>>>> In a similar invoice than yours I see 2 debits and 1 credit to >>>>>> ACCOUNTS_RECEIVABLE 120000 ACCOUNTS RECEIVABLE CURRENT_ASSET so for >>>>>> me it seems ok : <<The ending balance on the trial balance sheet for >>>>>> accounts receivable is always debit.>> >>>>>> >>>>>> BTW if you look at >>>>>> https://localhost:8443/accounting/control/TrialBalance?organizationPartyId=Company >>>>>> it should be ok (UNDEPOSITED >>>>>> RECEIPTS should be credited with the cash received) >>>>>> >>>>>> My 2 cents (I'm not an accountant, I'm French : we don't use exactly >>>>>> the >>>>>> same type of accounting here, I work as an independent so I >>>>>> don't use double entries accounting as I'm allowed to use simple >>>>>> accounting -collections and disbursements-, so I may be wrong, >>>>>> somewhere) >>>>>> >>>>>> Jacques >>>>>> >>>>>>> Any feedback would be appreciated. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> Sharan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> View this message in context: >>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Possible-Payments-Applied-Transaction-Error-tp18249013p18249013.html >>>>>>> Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> View this message in context: >>>> http://www.nabble.com/Possible-Payments-Applied-Transaction-Error-tp18249013p18394644.html >>>> Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> > > -- > View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Possible-Payments-Applied-Transaction-Error-tp18249013p18457719.html > Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > |
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