Reply-to address missing for dev and user mailing list

[Suraj Khurana-2]

Hello,

I think if someone clicked on reply button, the originator of the email
should not be included directly in 'To'. This ia common industry best
practice. I am inclined with Aditya's thought here.

--
Best Regards,
Suraj Khurana
Technical Consultant






On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 6:49 PM Mathieu Lirzin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> > Le 13/06/2019 à 13:02, Mathieu Lirzin a écrit :
> >> Hello Jacques
> >>
> >> Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:
> >>
> >>> 1st please when you answer to dev ML don't add my email to this
> >>> answer. I continuously and indefectibly follows this ML (as we are
> >>> required as committer). I have an email filter to redirect all dev ML
> >>> emails to a dev ML folder in my email clients (Thunderbird). Actually
> >>> I have 263 such filters (OK I filter a lot :D). It's not much about
> >>> you but I have seen a such pattern appearing these last times. So
> >>> please guys, we don't need a copy ;)
> >> Asking every person on that list to remember your personnal preferences
> >> and requiring them to manually remove your email address from recipients
> >> when using “Replying all” does not scale. :-)
> >
> > Actually we should never use “Replying all” when replying to an ML.
> > Else you get these useless and annoying duplicates not filtered, that's
> what I meant.
>
> If you have duplicates, then it's a bug in the mailing-list software
> that should be reported to INFRA.  The right thing would be to not
> resend an email to user both present in the recipients and subscribed to
> a list (GNU Mailman is doing that).
>
> > We should use "Replied to List" when it exists. It appears for me in
> Thunderbird when fitting.
> > I hope other email clients and webmails are allowing the same.
> > I guess for that the reply-to value must be set to [hidden email]
> and Infra can handle that.
> > It was working for a very long time and I suddenly these burst of
> duplicates, as Aditya found, don't you?
>
> Asking people to use “Reply to list” would be acceptable if we were
> assuming that everybody participating in the discussion is subscribed to
> the mailing-list which is only partially true in our case, given our
> current process which consist of accepting email from non-subscribed
> users but yelling at them for not not being subscribed.
>
> >> Please configure your email client to add “Reply-to:
> [hidden email]”
> >> in the header of the messages you are sending to that list. That will
> >> allow other email clients to automatically respect your personnal
> >> preferences.
> >
> > I don't agree, as an ASF member I reply to a lot of MLs. I don't want to
> be bothered by that for all of them.
> > Deepak's answer with INFRA-18478 seems to be the way we should handle
> that.
>
> I often don't want to cut the grass in my garden, but sometimes I have
> too. ;-)
>
> If you have a huge pile of ML subscriptions (50? 100?), you can
> configure your email client incrementally each time you send an email to
> a list that is not already configured and someday they will eventually
> all be properly configured. \o/
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Mathieu Lirzin
> GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761  070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Hi Mathieu, All,

I think it's an important discussion, but I fear there will be a lot of bikeshedding too

Le 13/06/2019 à 15:19, Mathieu Lirzin a écrit :
> Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> Le 13/06/2019 à 13:02, Mathieu Lirzin a écrit :
>> Actually we should never use “Replying all” when replying to an ML.
>> Else you get these useless and annoying duplicates not filtered, that's what I meant.
> If you have duplicates, then it's a bug in the mailing-list software
> that should be reported to INFRA.  The right thing would be to not
> resend an email to user both present in the recipients and subscribed to
> a list (GNU Mailman is doing that).

By duplicates I mean emails sent to the dev ML and to me directly. That depends mostly on sender I guess.

For instance, I received 2 versions (one to the dev ML, one directly to me) from (almost?) all people welcoming Pawan and Deepak.
As it does not make sense to filter emails sent directly to me, all those messages (both of them) end in my main inbox folder and I have to put them
manually in OFBiz.
I'd prefer to remove the duplicates (the ones sent directly to me) but it's too much work.
So I now have twice the size in this folder. As I keep archives of all messages for easier later searches it's a real problem for future (13.8 Go, for
all msgs today)

>
>> We should use "Replied to List" when it exists. It appears for me in Thunderbird when fitting.
>> I hope other email clients and webmails are allowing the same.
>> I guess for that the reply-to value must be set to [hidden email] and Infra can handle that.
>> It was working for a very long time and I suddenly these burst of duplicates, as Aditya found, don't you?
> Asking people to use “Reply to list” would be acceptable if we were
> assuming that everybody participating in the discussion is subscribed to
> the mailing-list which is only partially true in our case, given our
> current process which consist of accepting email from non-subscribed
> users but yelling at them for not not being subscribed.

As a moderator I think we don't chastise enough people sending mails to the MLs w/o being subscribed! :D

Joke aside, I understand the "duplicates" issue depends on senders.
And (it seems?) only people using Thunderbird have the opportunity to have a Reply-to-list button, based on List-Post header[1][2] So when they reply
using Reply-to they send 2 emails.

[1] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2369.txt
[2] https://github.com/k9mail/k-9/issues/2588

The ASF uses ezmlm, http://untroubled.org recommends (https://untroubled.org/ezmlmmanual/Replying.html)

    <<to type in the list address by hand or to use the “Reply-to-all” function of your mail reader>>

I'm unsure, but it seems to me that I used “Reply-to” for years to send back only to the OFBiz MLs, before I had to turn to Reply to List and
“Reply-to-all” (which fits to me. For me the problem is others senders)
So I guess then we had the setting "Reply-To: list@host" maybe as (not recommended) in[3] and as suggested by Deepak.

[3] http://untroubled.org/ezmlm/faq/Setting-Reply_002dTo-list_0040host.html#Setting-Reply_002dTo-list_0040host


>>> Please configure your email client to add “Reply-to: [hidden email]”
>>> in the header of the messages you are sending to that list. That will
>>> allow other email clients to automatically respect your personnal
>>> preferences.

You mean that I do it once for a message to a list and then it's OK for all further messages to this list?
I'm not even sure how to do that in Thunderbird :/
And I want something quick to answer. A button to click, not to have to select in a drop-down or such. I pass already much time answering...

Anyway I need to read carefully
http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
and
http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html

Before giving my opinion

>> I don't agree, as an ASF member I reply to a lot of MLs. I don't want to be bothered by that for all of them.
>> Deepak's answer with INFRA-18478 seems to be the way we should handle that.
> I often don't want to cut the grass in my garden, but sometimes I have
> too. ;-)
>
> If you have a huge pile of ML subscriptions (50? 100?), you can
> configure your email client incrementally each time you send an email to
> a list that is not already configured and someday they will eventually
> all be properly configured. \o/
>
> Thanks.

I tried but could not find a way in a reasonable time

Jacques

[adityasharma]

>> Answering myself: maybe we can ask infra to add reply-to as in
INFRA-18478 while we discuss a better solution.
+1

>> For instance, I received 2 versions (one to the dev ML, one directly to
me) from (almost?) all people welcoming Pawan and Deepak.
>> As it does not make sense to filter emails sent directly to me, all
those messages (both of them) end in my main inbox folder and I have to put
them manually in OFBiz.
Exactly. This way, we cannot ensure that people will exclude personal email
ids from reply-all and using reply it will always send the email
personally.

The sole purpose of the mailing list is served only when the emails are
sent on the list so reply being its primary action need to point to the
list only.

My 2 cents
Thanks and regards,
Aditya Sharma

On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:30 PM Jacques Le Roux <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Mathieu, All,
>
> I think it's an important discussion, but I fear there will be a lot of
> bikeshedding too
>
> Le 13/06/2019 à 15:19, Mathieu Lirzin a écrit :
> > Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:
> >
> >> Le 13/06/2019 à 13:02, Mathieu Lirzin a écrit :
> >> Actually we should never use “Replying all” when replying to an ML.
> >> Else you get these useless and annoying duplicates not filtered, that's
> what I meant.
> > If you have duplicates, then it's a bug in the mailing-list software
> > that should be reported to INFRA.  The right thing would be to not
> > resend an email to user both present in the recipients and subscribed to
> > a list (GNU Mailman is doing that).
>
> By duplicates I mean emails sent to the dev ML and to me directly. That
> depends mostly on sender I guess.
>
> For instance, I received 2 versions (one to the dev ML, one directly to
> me) from (almost?) all people welcoming Pawan and Deepak.
> As it does not make sense to filter emails sent directly to me, all those
> messages (both of them) end in my main inbox folder and I have to put them
> manually in OFBiz.
> I'd prefer to remove the duplicates (the ones sent directly to me) but
> it's too much work.
> So I now have twice the size in this folder. As I keep archives of all
> messages for easier later searches it's a real problem for future (13.8 Go,
> for
> all msgs today)
>
>
> >
> >> We should use "Replied to List" when it exists. It appears for me in
> Thunderbird when fitting.
> >> I hope other email clients and webmails are allowing the same.
> >> I guess for that the reply-to value must be set to [hidden email]
> and Infra can handle that.
> >> It was working for a very long time and I suddenly these burst of
> duplicates, as Aditya found, don't you?
> > Asking people to use “Reply to list” would be acceptable if we were
> > assuming that everybody participating in the discussion is subscribed to
> > the mailing-list which is only partially true in our case, given our
> > current process which consist of accepting email from non-subscribed
> > users but yelling at them for not not being subscribed.
>
> As a moderator I think we don't chastise enough people sending mails to
> the MLs w/o being subscribed! :D
>
> Joke aside, I understand the "duplicates" issue depends on senders.
> And (it seems?) only people using Thunderbird have the opportunity to have
> a Reply-to-list button, based on List-Post header[1][2] So when they reply
> using Reply-to they send 2 emails.
>
> [1] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2369.txt
> [2] https://github.com/k9mail/k-9/issues/2588
>
> The ASF uses ezmlm, http://untroubled.org recommends (
> https://untroubled.org/ezmlmmanual/Replying.html)
>
>     <<to type in the list address by hand or to use the “Reply-to-all”
> function of your mail reader>>
>
> I'm unsure, but it seems to me that I used “Reply-to” for years to send
> back only to the OFBiz MLs, before I had to turn to Reply to List and
> “Reply-to-all” (which fits to me. For me the problem is others senders)
> So I guess then we had the setting "Reply-To: list@host" maybe as (not
> recommended) in[3] and as suggested by Deepak.
>
> [3]
> http://untroubled.org/ezmlm/faq/Setting-Reply_002dTo-list_0040host.html#Setting-Reply_002dTo-list_0040host
>
>
> >>> Please configure your email client to add “Reply-to:
> [hidden email]”
> >>> in the header of the messages you are sending to that list. That will
> >>> allow other email clients to automatically respect your personnal
> >>> preferences.
>
> You mean that I do it once for a message to a list and then it's OK for
> all further messages to this list?
> I'm not even sure how to do that in Thunderbird :/
> And I want something quick to answer. A button to click, not to have to
> select in a drop-down or such. I pass already much time answering...
>
> Anyway I need to read carefully
> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> and
> http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html
>
> Before giving my opinion
>
> >> I don't agree, as an ASF member I reply to a lot of MLs. I don't want
> to be bothered by that for all of them.
> >> Deepak's answer with INFRA-18478 seems to be the way we should handle
> that.
> > I often don't want to cut the grass in my garden, but sometimes I have
> > too. ;-)
> >
> > If you have a huge pile of ML subscriptions (50? 100?), you can
> > configure your email client incrementally each time you send an email to
> > a list that is not already configured and someday they will eventually
> > all be properly configured. \o/
> >
> > Thanks.
> I tried but could not find a way in a reasonable time
>
> Jacques
>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Le 14/06/2019 à 11:03, Aditya Sharma a écrit :
> The sole purpose of the mailing list is served only when the emails are
> sent on the list so reply being its primary action need to point to the
> list only.

Though I don't think

    "The sole purpose of the mailing list is served only when the emails are sent on the list"

and I don't like much statistics (percentage of other uses here), I tend to agree with you Aditya.

I rarely answer directly to a person before exchanging with her/him and then sending to the dev ML.
And when I do that I simply use "Reply All" and remove the dev ML before sending.

I must though say that I'm lucky to use Thunderbird which has the "Reply list" button (not OOTB IIRW).
So I'm able to never send a respond to dev ML, AND other people, in much cases.

But at the moment those who have not a such functionality at hand and want the same (reply only to list) must manually change things.
It's a bummer when you have other more important things to think about and do.

Do we need a vote here to temporarily adopt the not optimal solution (as in INFRA-18478), Mathieu?

And should we create a specific thread to decide on what do as optimal (ie based on a consensus or even a vote)?

Please refer to the links I posted above as food for thoughts, I copy them here:

http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html

Thanks

Jacques

[Mathieu Lirzin]

Hello Jacques,

Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:

> Le 14/06/2019 à 11:03, Aditya Sharma a écrit :
>> The sole purpose of the mailing list is served only when the emails are
>> sent on the list so reply being its primary action need to point to the
>> list only.
>
> Do we need a vote here to temporarily adopt the not optimal solution
> (as in INFRA-18478), Mathieu?

IMO There is no need to vote formally, it appears that my arguments
didn't convince anyone (except you who wanted to think more about it).
So let's go for the “wrong” solution for now. :-)

> And should we create a specific thread to decide on what do as optimal
> (ie based on a consensus or even a vote)?
>
> Please refer to the links I posted above as food for thoughts, I copy them here:
>
> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html

Thanks.

--
Mathieu Lirzin
GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761  070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37

[Mathieu Lirzin]

Hello Jacques,

Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:

> Le 13/06/2019 à 15:19, Mathieu Lirzin a écrit :
>> Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:
>>
>>> I don't agree, as an ASF member I reply to a lot of MLs. I don't want to be bothered by that for all of them.
>>> Deepak's answer with INFRA-18478 seems to be the way we should handle that.
>>
>> If you have a huge pile of ML subscriptions (50? 100?), you can
>> configure your email client incrementally each time you send an email to
>> a list that is not already configured and someday they will eventually
>> all be properly configured. \o/
>>
>> Thanks.
> I tried but could not find a way in a reasonable time

After doing some research I have found a documentation [1] which is not
directly about setting the ‘Reply-to’ header but the ‘Mail-Followup-To’
and ‘Mail-Reply-To’ headers which are workarounds for the “reply-to
munging” done by mailing-lists [2].

After configuring Thunderbird this way, people using Mail User Agents
(MUA) understanding those headers [3] will not have to remember to
remove you from the recipient list when responding to the list.

I haven't found any information regarding Gmail or other Webmail
clients, but hopefully they understand those headers too.

Thanks.

[1] https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Help_Documentation:Mail-Followup-To_and_Mail-Reply-To
[2] http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html
[3] https://www.leptonite.org/mft/software.html

--
Mathieu Lirzin
GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761  070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37

[Paul Foxworthy]

Hi all,

Please do not set reply-to.

I agree with Mathieu and Jacques, and the sentiment in
http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html .

In a formal vote I would want to say -0.8: if absolutely everybody was in
favour, I could live with it, but it is still a bad idea. We are talking
about guarding against mistakes, either sending to the list when the intent
was to communicate with only one person, or the other way around. If
someone mistakenly sends to just one person, the damage is minimal - the
recipient may well notice and say "hey, did you intend this to go to the
list?". A personal message mistakenly sent to the list could be much more
embarrassing and damaging.

I administer another mailing list for a non-profit group and this issue has
cropped up. We added to the footer of the messages "Reply will send a
response to the sender. Please use Reply To All to send a response to the
list." That seemed to satisfy everyone.

I have no problem with additional headers that some email clients might
understand.

Cheers

Paul Foxworthy


On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 at 20:08, Mathieu Lirzin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hello Jacques,
>
> Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> > Le 13/06/2019 à 15:19, Mathieu Lirzin a écrit :
> >> Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:
> >>
> >>> I don't agree, as an ASF member I reply to a lot of MLs. I don't want
> to be bothered by that for all of them.
> >>> Deepak's answer with INFRA-18478 seems to be the way we should handle
> that.
> >>
> >> If you have a huge pile of ML subscriptions (50? 100?), you can
> >> configure your email client incrementally each time you send an email to
> >> a list that is not already configured and someday they will eventually
> >> all be properly configured. \o/
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> > I tried but could not find a way in a reasonable time
>
> After doing some research I have found a documentation [1] which is not
> directly about setting the ‘Reply-to’ header but the ‘Mail-Followup-To’
> and ‘Mail-Reply-To’ headers which are workarounds for the “reply-to
> munging” done by mailing-lists [2].
>
> After configuring Thunderbird this way, people using Mail User Agents
> (MUA) understanding those headers [3] will not have to remember to
> remove you from the recipient list when responding to the list.
>
> I haven't found any information regarding Gmail or other Webmail
> clients, but hopefully they understand those headers too.
>
> Thanks.
>
> [1]
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Help_Documentation:Mail-Followup-To_and_Mail-Reply-To
> [2] http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html
> [3] https://www.leptonite.org/mft/software.html
>
> --
> Mathieu Lirzin
> GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761  070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37
>

--
Coherent Software Australia Pty Ltd
PO Box 2773
Cheltenham Vic 3192
Australia

Phone: [phone]
Web: http://www.coherentsoftware.com.au/
Email: [hidden email]

[Jacques Le Roux]

Thanks Mathieu and Paul,

I began to prepare a formal answer to Mathieu, now I have to read 3 more articles before formally answering :D

At least I have made my mind up

Jacques

Le 17/06/2019 à 04:00, Paul Foxworthy a écrit :

> Hi all,
>
> Please do not set reply-to.
>
> I agree with Mathieu and Jacques, and the sentiment in
> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html .
>
> In a formal vote I would want to say -0.8: if absolutely everybody was in
> favour, I could live with it, but it is still a bad idea. We are talking
> about guarding against mistakes, either sending to the list when the intent
> was to communicate with only one person, or the other way around. If
> someone mistakenly sends to just one person, the damage is minimal - the
> recipient may well notice and say "hey, did you intend this to go to the
> list?". A personal message mistakenly sent to the list could be much more
> embarrassing and damaging.
>
> I administer another mailing list for a non-profit group and this issue has
> cropped up. We added to the footer of the messages "Reply will send a
> response to the sender. Please use Reply To All to send a response to the
> list." That seemed to satisfy everyone.
>
> I have no problem with additional headers that some email clients might
> understand.
>
> Cheers
>
> Paul Foxworthy
>
>
> On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 at 20:08, Mathieu Lirzin <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Jacques,
>>
>> Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:
>>
>>> Le 13/06/2019 à 15:19, Mathieu Lirzin a écrit :
>>>> Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't agree, as an ASF member I reply to a lot of MLs. I don't want
>> to be bothered by that for all of them.
>>>>> Deepak's answer with INFRA-18478 seems to be the way we should handle
>> that.
>>>> If you have a huge pile of ML subscriptions (50? 100?), you can
>>>> configure your email client incrementally each time you send an email to
>>>> a list that is not already configured and someday they will eventually
>>>> all be properly configured. \o/
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>> I tried but could not find a way in a reasonable time
>> After doing some research I have found a documentation [1] which is not
>> directly about setting the ‘Reply-to’ header but the ‘Mail-Followup-To’
>> and ‘Mail-Reply-To’ headers which are workarounds for the “reply-to
>> munging” done by mailing-lists [2].
>>
>> After configuring Thunderbird this way, people using Mail User Agents
>> (MUA) understanding those headers [3] will not have to remember to
>> remove you from the recipient list when responding to the list.
>>
>> I haven't found any information regarding Gmail or other Webmail
>> clients, but hopefully they understand those headers too.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> [1]
>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Help_Documentation:Mail-Followup-To_and_Mail-Reply-To
>> [2] http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html
>> [3] https://www.leptonite.org/mft/software.html
>>
>> --
>> Mathieu Lirzin
>> GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761  070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37
>>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Hi All,

I read all articles and I agree with Mathieu and Paul.

Here are my conclusions.

TL;DR: like Mathieu and Paul said, it's not a list problem it's a sender problem. But the devil is in the details...

More about that:

I use Reply to list in Thunderbird, because I was forced to do so at some point. I can't exactly remember when and I did not think much about it then.
Just that it was convenient for me. I was certainly using either Reply to all or Reply to before, I can't remember clearly.

Reading http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html I know understand the implications of using Reply to list (when it's available). It's not fair for
users who are not subscribed (but damn they earn it! :p).

So as mentioned by Mathieu[1], there is a better solution than Reply to list in Thunderbird. BTW I financially support Thunderbird from time to time,
hopefully it will live long.
But [2] shows that it's the only MUA (Mail User Agent) doing so completely. And we don't know about webmail, notably Gmail!

Now come some questions:

I suspect users with Gmail are simply using Reply All when they involuntarilysend "duplicates" (1 to list, another directly to initial sender).
I got much of them when I sent
"Welcome to Pawan Verma as new committer!"
and "Welcome to Deepak Nigam as new committer!"

It seems this behaviour changed in 2011[3], and there is not much choice about it[4]

So at this stage I'm not for changing things.
Even adding "Mail-Followup-To" in header is not recommended[5].

    <<Should my mailing list manager set up Mail-Followup-To?
    No. This would prevent non-subscribers from receiving copies of messages. It would fragment cross-posted discussions, sending some followups to
    your list alone while other followups are sent to both lists. You should leave Mail-Followup-To control in the hands of the original author. >>

I still can add it in Thunderbird though[5] \o/. For Gmail I don't know if there is a solution. Maybe extensions in Chrome (I guess Gmail users use
the whole Alphabet's panoply)?

[1] https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Help_Documentation:Mail-Followup-To_and_Mail-Reply-To#Configure_Thunderbird
[2] https://www.leptonite.org/mft/software.html
[3] https://ask.metafilter.com/180457/gmail-reply-all-wierdness-with-mailing-lists
[4] https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/37046/making-gmail-to-use-reply-all-automatically-in-mailing-list-replies
[5] http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html

I would add a -0.2 to Paul's vote if necessary :)

Jacques
 

Le 17/06/2019 à 14:24, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :

> Thanks Mathieu and Paul,
>
> I began to prepare a formal answer to Mathieu, now I have to read 3 more articles before formally answering :D
>
> At least I have made my mind up
>
> Jacques
>
> Le 17/06/2019 à 04:00, Paul Foxworthy a écrit :
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Please do not set reply-to.
>>
>> I agree with Mathieu and Jacques, and the sentiment in
>> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html .
>>
>> In a formal vote I would want to say -0.8: if absolutely everybody was in
>> favour, I could live with it, but it is still a bad idea. We are talking
>> about guarding against mistakes, either sending to the list when the intent
>> was to communicate with only one person, or the other way around. If
>> someone mistakenly sends to just one person, the damage is minimal - the
>> recipient may well notice and say "hey, did you intend this to go to the
>> list?". A personal message mistakenly sent to the list could be much more
>> embarrassing and damaging.
>>
>> I administer another mailing list for a non-profit group and this issue has
>> cropped up. We added to the footer of the messages "Reply will send a
>> response to the sender. Please use Reply To All to send a response to the
>> list." That seemed to satisfy everyone.
>>
>> I have no problem with additional headers that some email clients might
>> understand.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Paul Foxworthy
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 at 20:08, Mathieu Lirzin <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Jacques,
>>>
>>> Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>
>>>> Le 13/06/2019 à 15:19, Mathieu Lirzin a écrit :
>>>>> Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't agree, as an ASF member I reply to a lot of MLs. I don't want
>>> to be bothered by that for all of them.
>>>>>> Deepak's answer with INFRA-18478 seems to be the way we should handle
>>> that.
>>>>> If you have a huge pile of ML subscriptions (50? 100?), you can
>>>>> configure your email client incrementally each time you send an email to
>>>>> a list that is not already configured and someday they will eventually
>>>>> all be properly configured. \o/
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>> I tried but could not find a way in a reasonable time
>>> After doing some research I have found a documentation [1] which is not
>>> directly about setting the ‘Reply-to’ header but the ‘Mail-Followup-To’
>>> and ‘Mail-Reply-To’ headers which are workarounds for the “reply-to
>>> munging” done by mailing-lists [2].
>>>
>>> After configuring Thunderbird this way, people using Mail User Agents
>>> (MUA) understanding those headers [3] will not have to remember to
>>> remove you from the recipient list when responding to the list.
>>>
>>> I haven't found any information regarding Gmail or other Webmail
>>> clients, but hopefully they understand those headers too.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Help_Documentation:Mail-Followup-To_and_Mail-Reply-To
>>> [2] http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html
>>> [3] https://www.leptonite.org/mft/software.html
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mathieu Lirzin
>>> GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761  070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37
>>>
>>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

BTW, I also receive duplicates from myself when sending to some OFBiz MLs like private or security. I'm eager to set Thunderbird to avoid that :)

Le 18/06/2019 à 14:09, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :

> Hi All,
>
> I read all articles and I agree with Mathieu and Paul.
>
> Here are my conclusions.
>
> TL;DR: like Mathieu and Paul said, it's not a list problem it's a sender problem. But the devil is in the details...
>
> More about that:
>
> I use Reply to list in Thunderbird, because I was forced to do so at some point. I can't exactly remember when and I did not think much about it
> then. Just that it was convenient for me. I was certainly using either Reply to all or Reply to before, I can't remember clearly.
>
> Reading http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html I know understand the implications of using Reply to list (when it's available). It's not fair
> for users who are not subscribed (but damn they earn it! :p).
>
> So as mentioned by Mathieu[1], there is a better solution than Reply to list in Thunderbird. BTW I financially support Thunderbird from time to
> time, hopefully it will live long.
> But [2] shows that it's the only MUA (Mail User Agent) doing so completely. And we don't know about webmail, notably Gmail!
>
> Now come some questions:
>
> I suspect users with Gmail are simply using Reply All when they involuntarilysend "duplicates" (1 to list, another directly to initial sender).
> I got much of them when I sent
> "Welcome to Pawan Verma as new committer!"
> and "Welcome to Deepak Nigam as new committer!"
>
> It seems this behaviour changed in 2011[3], and there is not much choice about it[4]
>
> So at this stage I'm not for changing things.
> Even adding "Mail-Followup-To" in header is not recommended[5].
>
>    <<Should my mailing list manager set up Mail-Followup-To?
>    No. This would prevent non-subscribers from receiving copies of messages. It would fragment cross-posted discussions, sending some followups to
>    your list alone while other followups are sent to both lists. You should leave Mail-Followup-To control in the hands of the original author. >>
>
> I still can add it in Thunderbird though[5] \o/. For Gmail I don't know if there is a solution. Maybe extensions in Chrome (I guess Gmail users use
> the whole Alphabet's panoply)?
>
> [1] https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Help_Documentation:Mail-Followup-To_and_Mail-Reply-To#Configure_Thunderbird
> [2] https://www.leptonite.org/mft/software.html
> [3] https://ask.metafilter.com/180457/gmail-reply-all-wierdness-with-mailing-lists
> [4] https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/37046/making-gmail-to-use-reply-all-automatically-in-mailing-list-replies
> [5] http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html
>
> I would add a -0.2 to Paul's vote if necessary :)
>
> Jacques
>
>
> Le 17/06/2019 à 14:24, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :
>> Thanks Mathieu and Paul,
>>
>> I began to prepare a formal answer to Mathieu, now I have to read 3 more articles before formally answering :D
>>
>> At least I have made my mind up
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>> Le 17/06/2019 à 04:00, Paul Foxworthy a écrit :
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Please do not set reply-to.
>>>
>>> I agree with Mathieu and Jacques, and the sentiment in
>>> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html .
>>>
>>> In a formal vote I would want to say -0.8: if absolutely everybody was in
>>> favour, I could live with it, but it is still a bad idea. We are talking
>>> about guarding against mistakes, either sending to the list when the intent
>>> was to communicate with only one person, or the other way around. If
>>> someone mistakenly sends to just one person, the damage is minimal - the
>>> recipient may well notice and say "hey, did you intend this to go to the
>>> list?". A personal message mistakenly sent to the list could be much more
>>> embarrassing and damaging.
>>>
>>> I administer another mailing list for a non-profit group and this issue has
>>> cropped up. We added to the footer of the messages "Reply will send a
>>> response to the sender. Please use Reply To All to send a response to the
>>> list." That seemed to satisfy everyone.
>>>
>>> I have no problem with additional headers that some email clients might
>>> understand.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Paul Foxworthy
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 at 20:08, Mathieu Lirzin <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Jacques,
>>>>
>>>> Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Le 13/06/2019 à 15:19, Mathieu Lirzin a écrit :
>>>>>> Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't agree, as an ASF member I reply to a lot of MLs. I don't want
>>>> to be bothered by that for all of them.
>>>>>>> Deepak's answer with INFRA-18478 seems to be the way we should handle
>>>> that.
>>>>>> If you have a huge pile of ML subscriptions (50? 100?), you can
>>>>>> configure your email client incrementally each time you send an email to
>>>>>> a list that is not already configured and someday they will eventually
>>>>>> all be properly configured. \o/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>> I tried but could not find a way in a reasonable time
>>>> After doing some research I have found a documentation [1] which is not
>>>> directly about setting the ‘Reply-to’ header but the ‘Mail-Followup-To’
>>>> and ‘Mail-Reply-To’ headers which are workarounds for the “reply-to
>>>> munging” done by mailing-lists [2].
>>>>
>>>> After configuring Thunderbird this way, people using Mail User Agents
>>>> (MUA) understanding those headers [3] will not have to remember to
>>>> remove you from the recipient list when responding to the list.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't found any information regarding Gmail or other Webmail
>>>> clients, but hopefully they understand those headers too.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> [1]
>>>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Help_Documentation:Mail-Followup-To_and_Mail-Reply-To
>>>> [2] http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html
>>>> [3] https://www.leptonite.org/mft/software.html
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mathieu Lirzin
>>>> GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761  070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37
>>>>
>>>
>>
>