Users - JOB _SANDBOX

[cjhowe]

Andrew,

Not to be the voice of reason in your frustration, but
David answered precisely what you actually asked.  It
may not have been the answer you wanted, if that's the
case, you didn't ask the question that you wanted
either.

25,000 records isn't really that much.  We're running
a semi-production site that has 115,000 products and
about 10 catalogs, so there are some tables that have
close to a half million records running on 640 MB RAM
of a desktop box.  I'm not saying it's the world's
smoothest ride in the world...But I can access
webtools and follow the advice that David gave to your
question.  But then again, I'm using recent SVN
instead of 3.0.  That's more of your problem than
anything though.  I'm sure it would be very difficult
for you to update to something written in the last 2
years though as the two projects barely resemble each
other (4721 revisions since 3.0.0).  Since there are
only about 4 or 5 regular people on this list that
have even installed 3.0.0, much less have written code
toward it you may want to be a bit more patient as to
not alienate them if you're needing help.

If you're worried about the failed jobs rescheduling,
try finding why the jobs are failing and fix that or
supress them from rerunning, then you won't have to
worry about "clean up routines".  Since most of that
is written in java you'd have to stop the system
anyway, so why not just stop the system and use
another database manager to trim the fat?

But, this reply has even less of a point than David's
so please, flame away.


==========Andrew wrote:

David,

Thanks for your response but the problem is the
WebTools app doesn't work
when you have 25,000+ records. Not even on a 2gig
machine with all the
memory dedicated to the Java app running ofbiz....!!!!

Hence my question in the first place.

I know I can remove records from the database....I was
asking if anyone else
run into this problem and could they please help me to
understand the data
model so I may intelligently delete from a live
system. What issues are
there? etc....please c'mon..

I'm trying very hard not to be rude and please take
the following with a
grain of salt as I'm very frustrated here. Honestly
your response was
pointless....I know you're one of the main
contributors but if you have
nothing to contribute to my questions please don't
respond. I'm not a
complete idiot. I was asking for help, not the
obvious.

I understand that the Webtools area of the application
may have improved in
the latest version, I vcertainly hope it didn't get
worse. Here's my growing
concern from reading the list that maybe Ofbiz is lost
in it's own never
ending development cycle. What about real world
scenarios and users who have
current live systems. arrrgghh...

Come on please..
Andrew.
 
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[Andrew Dupa]

Oh but you're not the voice of reason and you like David failed to read first before replying. You just look like an idiot now

 

Sure David gave me an answer but it wasn't helpful, not even close if you understand what it is i was actually asking. read it again.

 

SO what if you are runnign with "semi-production" site with 110,000 products?? So am I except mine really is production. wtf has that got to do with 25,000 JOB_SANDBOX record when you hit webtools? Do you have this and can you hit webtools job scheduler?

 

I know why they are failing and the best soltuoin is to kil them from trying again except and I repeat the admin tools around this don't work when JOB_SANBOX is above 20K records. Want me to say it again? I think next you'll tell me that it's possible to delete records form a database wow really??!!! You genius you

 

You're an idiot...I'll persist because someone smart out there must understand what it is I'm asking and realise that the Webtools code in 3.0 is such a pile of crap it can't handle 25,000 records....so how do i fix this problem by purging the data no longer required?

 

sorry just used to working a professional team of senior java devs here in seattle who develop real world products....if they posted an answer like you they'd be a laughing stock

 

 

 

On 2/1/06, Chris Howe <[hidden email]> wrote:

Andrew,

Not to be the voice of reason in your frustration, but
David answered precisely what you actually asked.  It
may not have been the answer you wanted, if that's the
case, you didn't ask the question that you wanted
either.

25,000 records isn't really that much.  We're running
a semi-production site that has 115,000 products and
about 10 catalogs, so there are some tables that have
close to a half million records running on 640 MB RAM
of a desktop box.  I'm not saying it's the world's
smoothest ride in the world...But I can access
webtools and follow the advice that David gave to your
question.  But then again, I'm using recent SVN
instead of 3.0.  That's more of your problem than
anything though.  I'm sure it would be very difficult
for you to update to something written in the last 2
years though as the two projects barely resemble each
other (4721 revisions since 3.0.0).  Since there are
only about 4 or 5 regular people on this list that
have even installed 3.0.0, much less have written code
toward it you may want to be a bit more patient as to
not alienate them if you're needing help.

If you're worried about the failed jobs rescheduling,
try finding why the jobs are failing and fix that or
supress them from rerunning, then you won't have to
worry about "clean up routines".  Since most of that
is written in java you'd have to stop the system
anyway, so why not just stop the system and use
another database manager to trim the fat?

But, this reply has even less of a point than David's
so please, flame away.


==========Andrew wrote:

David,

Thanks for your response but the problem is the
WebTools app doesn't work
when you have 25,000+ records. Not even on a 2gig
machine with all the
memory dedicated to the Java app running ofbiz....!!!!

Hence my question in the first place.

I know I can remove records from the database....I was
asking if anyone else
run into this problem and could they please help me to
understand the data
model so I may intelligently delete from a live
system. What issues are
there? etc....please c'mon..

I'm trying very hard not to be rude and please take
the following with a
grain of salt as I'm very frustrated here. Honestly
your response was
pointless....I know you're one of the main
contributors but if you have
nothing to contribute to my questions please don't
respond. I'm not a
complete idiot. I was asking for help, not the
obvious.

I understand that the Webtools area of the application
may have improved in
the latest version, I vcertainly hope it didn't get
worse. Here's my growing
concern from reading the list that maybe Ofbiz is lost
in it's own never
ending development cycle. What about real world
scenarios and users who have
current live systems. arrrgghh...

Come on please..
Andrew.

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[hidden email]
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[David E. Jones]

Andrew,

That's enough. This is totally inappropriate and does not help you or  
anyone. This sort of direct personal attack on someone who is trying  
to help in the spirit of a community effort is simply not acceptable  
in an open source community. If this is how you get along in your day  
job fine, but don't bring it here.

I'll encourage everyone to give you the benefit of the doubt because  
it's late and you may be going through caffeine withdrawals or  
something.

While there have been some rough threads on this mailing list this  
sort of direct insult is pretty much a first. We have never kicked  
anyone off the list, but if this continues I'll personally call for a  
vote.

As for this question: I have no idea what you are asking anymore, so  
please start over. Trying to pick it out of the ranting is difficult.

-David


On Feb 1, 2006, at 9:58 PM, Andrew Dupa wrote:

> Oh but you're not the voice of reason and you like David failed to  
> read first before replying. You just look like an idiot now
>
> Sure David gave me an answer but it wasn't helpful, not even close  
> if you understand what it is i was actually asking. read it again.
>
> SO what if you are runnign with "semi-production" site with 110,000  
> products?? So am I except mine really is production. wtf has that  
> got to do with 25,000 JOB_SANDBOX record when you hit webtools? Do  
> you have this and can you hit webtools job scheduler?
>
> I know why they are failing and the best soltuoin is to kil them  
> from trying again except and I repeat the admin tools around this  
> don't work when JOB_SANBOX is above 20K records. Want me to say it  
> again? I think next you'll tell me that it's possible to delete  
> records form a database wow really??!!! You genius you
>
> You're an idiot...I'll persist because someone smart out there must  
> understand what it is I'm asking and realise that the Webtools code  
> in 3.0 is such a pile of crap it can't handle 25,000 records....so  
> how do i fix this problem by purging the data no longer required?
>
> sorry just used to working a professional team of senior java devs  
> here in seattle who develop real world products....if they posted  
> an answer like you they'd be a laughing stock
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2/1/06, Chris Howe <[hidden email]> wrote: Andrew,
>
> Not to be the voice of reason in your frustration, but
> David answered precisely what you actually asked.  It
> may not have been the answer you wanted, if that's the
> case, you didn't ask the question that you wanted
> either.
>
> 25,000 records isn't really that much.  We're running
> a semi-production site that has 115,000 products and
> about 10 catalogs, so there are some tables that have
> close to a half million records running on 640 MB RAM
> of a desktop box.  I'm not saying it's the world's
> smoothest ride in the world...But I can access
> webtools and follow the advice that David gave to your
> question.  But then again, I'm using recent SVN
> instead of 3.0.  That's more of your problem than
> anything though.  I'm sure it would be very difficult
> for you to update to something written in the last 2
> years though as the two projects barely resemble each
> other (4721 revisions since 3.0.0).  Since there are
> only about 4 or 5 regular people on this list that
> have even installed 3.0.0, much less have written code
> toward it you may want to be a bit more patient as to
> not alienate them if you're needing help.
>
> If you're worried about the failed jobs rescheduling,
> try finding why the jobs are failing and fix that or
> supress them from rerunning, then you won't have to
> worry about "clean up routines".  Since most of that
> is written in java you'd have to stop the system
> anyway, so why not just stop the system and use
> another database manager to trim the fat?
>
> But, this reply has even less of a point than David's
> so please, flame away.
>
>
> ==========Andrew wrote:
>
> David,
>
> Thanks for your response but the problem is the
> WebTools app doesn't work
> when you have 25,000+ records. Not even on a 2gig
> machine with all the
> memory dedicated to the Java app running ofbiz....!!!!
>
> Hence my question in the first place.
>
> I know I can remove records from the database....I was
> asking if anyone else
> run into this problem and could they please help me to
> understand the data
> model so I may intelligently delete from a live
> system. What issues are
> there? etc....please c'mon..
>
> I'm trying very hard not to be rude and please take
> the following with a
> grain of salt as I'm very frustrated here. Honestly
> your response was
> pointless....I know you're one of the main
> contributors but if you have
> nothing to contribute to my questions please don't
> respond. I'm not a
> complete idiot. I was asking for help, not the
> obvious.
>
> I understand that the Webtools area of the application
> may have improved in
> the latest version, I vcertainly hope it didn't get
> worse. Here's my growing
> concern from reading the list that maybe Ofbiz is lost
> in it's own never
> ending development cycle. What about real world
> scenarios and users who have
> current live systems. arrrgghh...
>
> Come on please..
> Andrew.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

 
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[Andrew Dupa]

I'll stick to the facts -

 

1st problem

Webtools admin screen around scheduled jobs doesn not work due to the large amount of data in the database. to get around this probem how I would like to delete the old un-used records. i would like to understand or hear form someone who has this problem before how to best go about it. I don't want to guess about what records to delete, if someone can give me a definitive answer than great.

 

2nd problem

I have scheduled jobs that are failing but are reschedlued to run later, they have no hope of runing sucessfully so I would like to cancel/stop/delete them. again I can't do this thru the admin screen in webtools because it doens't work (because there's a lot of records in the database) if someone could tell me how to stop the scheduled jobs, i.e. not stop important ones but just the ones i identify as problem jobs I would appreciate that. remember the admin tools provided don't work because of the large amount of data in the database. So I can log in to the databse and do it thru SQL if someone can describe the data model or what to look for.

 

I was hoping this was a known problem that someone could provide a known fix for.

 

 

 

 

 

On 2/1/06, David E. Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:

Andrew,

That's enough. This is totally inappropriate and does not help you or
anyone. This sort of direct personal attack on someone who is trying
to help in the spirit of a community effort is simply not acceptable
in an open source community. If this is how you get along in your day
job fine, but don't bring it here.

I'll encourage everyone to give you the benefit of the doubt because
it's late and you may be going through caffeine withdrawals or
something.

While there have been some rough threads on this mailing list this
sort of direct insult is pretty much a first. We have never kicked
anyone off the list, but if this continues I'll personally call for a
vote.

As for this question: I have no idea what you are asking anymore, so
please start over. Trying to pick it out of the ranting is difficult.

-David


On Feb 1, 2006, at 9:58 PM, Andrew Dupa wrote:

> Oh but you're not the voice of reason and you like David failed to
> read first before replying. You just look like an idiot now
>
> Sure David gave me an answer but it wasn't helpful, not even close
> if you understand what it is i was actually asking. read it again.
>
> SO what if you are runnign with "semi-production" site with 110,000
> products?? So am I except mine really is production. wtf has that
> got to do with 25,000 JOB_SANDBOX record when you hit webtools? Do
> you have this and can you hit webtools job scheduler?
>
> I know why they are failing and the best soltuoin is to kil them
> from trying again except and I repeat the admin tools around this
> don't work when JOB_SANBOX is above 20K records. Want me to say it
> again? I think next you'll tell me that it's possible to delete

> records form a database wow really??!!! You genius you
>
> You're an idiot...I'll persist because someone smart out there must
> understand what it is I'm asking and realise that the Webtools code
> in 3.0 is such a pile of crap it can't handle 25,000 records....so
> how do i fix this problem by purging the data no longer required?
>
> sorry just used to working a professional team of senior java devs
> here in seattle who develop real world products....if they posted
> an answer like you they'd be a laughing stock
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2/1/06, Chris Howe <[hidden email]> wrote: Andrew,
>
> Not to be the voice of reason in your frustration, but
> David answered precisely what you actually asked.  It
> may not have been the answer you wanted, if that's the
> case, you didn't ask the question that you wanted
> either.
>
> 25,000 records isn't really that much.  We're running
> a semi-production site that has 115,000 products and
> about 10 catalogs, so there are some tables that have
> close to a half million records running on 640 MB RAM
> of a desktop box.  I'm not saying it's the world's
> smoothest ride in the world...But I can access
> webtools and follow the advice that David gave to your
> question.  But then again, I'm using recent SVN
> instead of 3.0.  That's more of your problem than
> anything though.  I'm sure it would be very difficult
> for you to update to something written in the last 2
> years though as the two projects barely resemble each
> other (4721 revisions since 3.0.0).  Since there are
> only about 4 or 5 regular people on this list that
> have even installed 3.0.0, much less have written code
> toward it you may want to be a bit more patient as to
> not alienate them if you're needing help.
>
> If you're worried about the failed jobs rescheduling,
> try finding why the jobs are failing and fix that or
> supress them from rerunning, then you won't have to
> worry about "clean up routines".  Since most of that
> is written in java you'd have to stop the system
> anyway, so why not just stop the system and use
> another database manager to trim the fat?
>
> But, this reply has even less of a point than David's
> so please, flame away.
>
>
> ==========Andrew wrote:
>
> David,
>
> Thanks for your response but the problem is the
> WebTools app doesn't work
> when you have 25,000+ records. Not even on a 2gig
> machine with all the
> memory dedicated to the Java app running ofbiz....!!!!
>
> Hence my question in the first place.
>
> I know I can remove records from the database....I was
> asking if anyone else
> run into this problem and could they please help me to

> understand the data
> model so I may intelligently delete from a live
> system. What issues are
> there? etc....please c'mon..
>
> I'm trying very hard not to be rude and please take
> the following with a

> grain of salt as I'm very frustrated here. Honestly
> your response was
> pointless....I know you're one of the main
> contributors but if you have
> nothing to contribute to my questions please don't
> respond. I'm not a
> complete idiot. I was asking for help, not the
> obvious.
>
> I understand that the Webtools area of the application
> may have improved in
> the latest version, I vcertainly hope it didn't get
> worse. Here's my growing
> concern from reading the list that maybe Ofbiz is lost
> in it's own never
> ending development cycle. What about real world
> scenarios and users who have
> current live systems. arrrgghh...
>
> Come on please..
> Andrew.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

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[Andrew Sykes]

Andrew,

If a job is completed, it'll have a FINISH_DATE_TIME.

So, something like this might help...
delete from JOB_SANDBOX where FINISH_DATE_TIME = "";

Service names are also logged in the JOB_SANDBOX, so if you know the
name of the offending service, perhaps this...
delete from JOB_SANDBOX where SERVICE_NAME like "nameOfOffendingService"

Bear in mind, I've never had to do this in production, so make sure you
back-up just in case this causes any unforeseen problems.
--
Kind Regards
Andrew Sykes <[hidden email]>
Sykes Development Ltd
http://www.sykesdevelopment.com

 
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[Brett]

Andrew,

See comments below:

On 2/1/06, Andrew Dupa <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'll stick to the facts -
>
> 1st problem
> Webtools admin screen around scheduled jobs doesn not work due to the large
> amount of data in the database. to get around this probem how I would like
> to delete the old un-used records. i would like to understand or hear form
> someone who has this problem before how to best go about it. I don't want to
> guess about what records to delete, if someone can give me a definitive
> answer than great.
>

Yes, we have seen the same problem on our production boxes when the
job_sandbox table is large.  This is a limitation in the
implementation that should be fixed.  We have worked around it by
creating custom services to remove failed jobs.  We have also manually
deleted these records through the database as part of our regular
archival strategy.  I agree that these are not the best solutions, but
fixing the webtools application has not been a priority for us.

> 2nd problem
> I have scheduled jobs that are failing but are reschedlued to run later,
> they have no hope of runing sucessfully so I would like to
> cancel/stop/delete them. again I can't do this thru the admin screen in
> webtools because it doens't work (because there's a lot of records in the
> database) if someone could tell me how to stop the scheduled jobs, i.e. not
> stop important ones but just the ones i identify as problem jobs I would
> appreciate that. remember the admin tools provided don't work because of the
> large amount of data in the database. So I can log in to the databse and do
> it thru SQL if someone can describe the data model or what to look for.
>

We aso had problems with failed services continually retrying.  For
example, email notifications that had an incorrect E-mail address
would continually attempt to send and fail.  Services by default run
forever.  We changed these services to have a max-retry of 3.   This
prevented the run-away condition we saw with failed services that had
no chance of correcting themselves.  Here is a sample service
definition with the max-retry set:

<service name="someService" engine="java"
           location="SomeService" invoke="sendEmailNotification"
           use-transaction="false" require-new-transaction="false"
max-retry="3">
        <attribute name="sendTo" type="String" mode="IN" optional="false"/>
        <attribute name="sendFrom" type="String" mode="IN" optional="false"/>
        <attribute name="sendBcc" type="String" mode="IN" optional="true"/>
        <attribute name="subject" type="String" mode="IN" optional="false" />
    </service>


Hope that sounds somewhat intelligent.


Brett
 
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[Andrew Dupa]

Thanks - that's great brett. I knew someone would get it. Thanks your reply is exactly what I was after.

 

Couple more questions.

 

On the 1st point do you by chance still have the SQL to manually delete these jobs records as part of your regular achive stratergy? If your solution worked I'd like to use that than roll my own.

 

Also I'm interested in setting up the custom service to delete these old records. Are you able to provide some detailed instructions as to how to do this?  It would help greatly if you provided some pointers.

 

Thanks,

Andrew

 

On 2/2/06, Brett Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Andrew,

See comments below:

On 2/1/06, Andrew Dupa <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'll stick to the facts -
>
> 1st problem
> Webtools admin screen around scheduled jobs doesn not work due to the large
> amount of data in the database. to get around this probem how I would like
> to delete the old un-used records. i would like to understand or hear form
> someone who has this problem before how to best go about it. I don't want to
> guess about what records to delete, if someone can give me a definitive
> answer than great.
>

Yes, we have seen the same problem on our production boxes when the
job_sandbox table is large.  This is a limitation in the
implementation that should be fixed.  We have worked around it by
creating custom services to remove failed jobs.  We have also manually
deleted these records through the database as part of our regular
archival strategy.  I agree that these are not the best solutions, but
fixing the webtools application has not been a priority for us.

> 2nd problem
> I have scheduled jobs that are failing but are reschedlued to run later,
> they have no hope of runing sucessfully so I would like to
> cancel/stop/delete them. again I can't do this thru the admin screen in
> webtools because it doens't work (because there's a lot of records in the
> database) if someone could tell me how to stop the scheduled jobs, i.e. not
> stop important ones but just the ones i identify as problem jobs I would
> appreciate that. remember the admin tools provided don't work because of the
> large amount of data in the database. So I can log in to the databse and do
> it thru SQL if someone can describe the data model or what to look for.
>

We aso had problems with failed services continually retrying.  For
example, email notifications that had an incorrect E-mail address
would continually attempt to send and fail.  Services by default run
forever.  We changed these services to have a max-retry of 3.   This
prevented the run-away condition we saw with failed services that had
no chance of correcting themselves.  Here is a sample service
definition with the max-retry set:

<service name="someService" engine="java"
          location="SomeService" invoke="sendEmailNotification"
          use-transaction="false" require-new-transaction="false"
max-retry="3">
       <attribute name="sendTo" type="String" mode="IN" optional="false"/>
       <attribute name="sendFrom" type="String" mode="IN" optional="false"/>
       <attribute name="sendBcc" type="String" mode="IN" optional="true"/>
       <attribute name="subject" type="String" mode="IN" optional="false" />
   </service>


Hope that sounds somewhat intelligent.


Brett

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[Charles Johnson-4]

>From JobManager.java, looks like the jobs in question would be found
thus in SQL:

select JOB_ID, JOB_NAME from JOB_SANDBOX where FINISH_DATE_TIME is null
and CANCEL_DATE_TIME is null and RUN_BY_INSTANCE_ID is null

If you can verify that, it would be possible to convert that to a delete
statement, but beware of entity dependencies in RecurrenceInfo,
RuntimeData, UserLogin, and StatusItem

CJ
Andrew Dupa wrote:

> Thanks - that's great brett. I knew someone would get it. Thanks your
> reply is exactly what I was after.
>  
> Couple more questions.
>  
> On the 1st point do you by chance still have the SQL to manually
> delete these jobs records as part of your regular achive stratergy? If
> your solution worked I'd like to use that than roll my own.
>  
> Also I'm interested in setting up the custom service to delete these
> old records. Are you able to provide some detailed instructions as to
> how to do this?  It would help greatly if you provided some pointers.
>  
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>
>  
> On 2/2/06, *Brett Palmer* <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Andrew,
>
>     See comments below:
>
>     On 2/1/06, Andrew Dupa < [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>     > I'll stick to the facts -
>     >
>     > 1st problem
>     > Webtools admin screen around scheduled jobs doesn not work due
>     to the large
>     > amount of data in the database. to get around this probem how I
>     would like
>     > to delete the old un-used records. i would like to understand or
>     hear form
>     > someone who has this problem before how to best go about it. I
>     don't want to
>     > guess about what records to delete, if someone can give me a
>     definitive
>     > answer than great.
>     >
>
>     Yes, we have seen the same problem on our production boxes when the
>     job_sandbox table is large.  This is a limitation in the
>     implementation that should be fixed.  We have worked around it by
>     creating custom services to remove failed jobs.  We have also manually
>     deleted these records through the database as part of our regular
>     archival strategy.  I agree that these are not the best solutions, but
>     fixing the webtools application has not been a priority for us.
>
>     > 2nd problem
>     > I have scheduled jobs that are failing but are reschedlued to
>     run later,
>     > they have no hope of runing sucessfully so I would like to
>     > cancel/stop/delete them. again I can't do this thru the admin
>     screen in
>     > webtools because it doens't work (because there's a lot of
>     records in the
>     > database) if someone could tell me how to stop the scheduled
>     jobs, i.e. not
>     > stop important ones but just the ones i identify as problem jobs
>     I would
>     > appreciate that. remember the admin tools provided don't work
>     because of the
>     > large amount of data in the database. So I can log in to the
>     databse and do
>     > it thru SQL if someone can describe the data model or what to
>     look for.
>     >
>
>     We aso had problems with failed services continually retrying.  For
>     example, email notifications that had an incorrect E-mail address
>     would continually attempt to send and fail.  Services by default run
>     forever.  We changed these services to have a max-retry of 3.   This
>     prevented the run-away condition we saw with failed services that had
>     no chance of correcting themselves.  Here is a sample service
>     definition with the max-retry set:
>
>     <service name="someService" engine="java"
>               location="SomeService" invoke="sendEmailNotification"
>               use-transaction="false" require-new-transaction="false"
>     max-retry="3">
>            <attribute name="sendTo" type="String" mode="IN"
>     optional="false"/>
>            <attribute name="sendFrom" type="String" mode="IN"
>     optional="false"/>
>            <attribute name="sendBcc" type="String" mode="IN"
>     optional="true"/>
>            <attribute name="subject" type="String" mode="IN"
>     optional="false" />
>        </service>
>
>
>     Hope that sounds somewhat intelligent.
>
>
>     Brett
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Users mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>     <http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Users mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>

 
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

[Andrew Dupa]

So this SQL identifies jobs that are still to be run?

 

Does that mean the rest of the set can be deleted?

 

On 2/2/06, Charles Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>From JobManager.java, looks like the jobs in question would be found
thus in SQL:

select JOB_ID, JOB_NAME from JOB_SANDBOX where FINISH_DATE_TIME is null
and CANCEL_DATE_TIME is null and RUN_BY_INSTANCE_ID is null

If you can verify that, it would be possible to convert that to a delete
statement, but beware of entity dependencies in RecurrenceInfo,
RuntimeData, UserLogin, and StatusItem

CJ
Andrew Dupa wrote:

> Thanks - that's great brett. I knew someone would get it. Thanks your
> reply is exactly what I was after.
>
> Couple more questions.
>
> On the 1st point do you by chance still have the SQL to manually
> delete these jobs records as part of your regular achive stratergy? If
> your solution worked I'd like to use that than roll my own.
>
> Also I'm interested in setting up the custom service to delete these
> old records. Are you able to provide some detailed instructions as to
> how to do this?  It would help greatly if you provided some pointers.
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>
>
> On 2/2/06, *Brett Palmer* < [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Andrew,
>
>     See comments below:
>
>     On 2/1/06, Andrew Dupa < [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>     > I'll stick to the facts -
>     >
>     > 1st problem
>     > Webtools admin screen around scheduled jobs doesn not work due
>     to the large
>     > amount of data in the database. to get around this probem how I
>     would like
>     > to delete the old un-used records. i would like to understand or
>     hear form
>     > someone who has this problem before how to best go about it. I
>     don't want to
>     > guess about what records to delete, if someone can give me a
>     definitive
>     > answer than great.
>     >
>
>     Yes, we have seen the same problem on our production boxes when the
>     job_sandbox table is large.  This is a limitation in the
>     implementation that should be fixed.  We have worked around it by
>     creating custom services to remove failed jobs.  We have also manually
>     deleted these records through the database as part of our regular
>     archival strategy.  I agree that these are not the best solutions, but
>     fixing the webtools application has not been a priority for us.
>
>     > 2nd problem
>     > I have scheduled jobs that are failing but are reschedlued to
>     run later,
>     > they have no hope of runing sucessfully so I would like to
>     > cancel/stop/delete them. again I can't do this thru the admin
>     screen in
>     > webtools because it doens't work (because there's a lot of
>     records in the
>     > database) if someone could tell me how to stop the scheduled
>     jobs, i.e. not
>     > stop important ones but just the ones i identify as problem jobs
>     I would
>     > appreciate that. remember the admin tools provided don't work
>     because of the
>     > large amount of data in the database. So I can log in to the
>     databse and do
>     > it thru SQL if someone can describe the data model or what to
>     look for.
>     >
>
>     We aso had problems with failed services continually retrying.  For
>     example, email notifications that had an incorrect E-mail address
>     would continually attempt to send and fail.  Services by default run
>     forever.  We changed these services to have a max-retry of 3.   This
>     prevented the run-away condition we saw with failed services that had
>     no chance of correcting themselves.  Here is a sample service
>     definition with the max-retry set:
>
>     <service name="someService" engine="java"
>               location="SomeService" invoke="sendEmailNotification"
>               use-transaction="false" require-new-transaction="false"
>     max-retry="3">
>            <attribute name="sendTo" type="String" mode="IN"
>     optional="false"/>
>            <attribute name="sendFrom" type="String" mode="IN"
>     optional="false"/>
>            <attribute name="sendBcc" type="String" mode="IN"
>     optional="true"/>
>            <attribute name="subject" type="String" mode="IN"
>     optional="false" />
>        </service>
>
>
>     Hope that sounds somewhat intelligent.
>
>
>     Brett
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Users mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>     <http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Users mailing list
>[hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>

_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

 
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

[Jacopo Cappellato]

Andrew,

why don't you ask these questions to the "professional team of senior
java devs" you are working with?

I really think that, first of all, you should stop asking questions here
and publicly apologize with Chris Howe for your words.

In this list (and community) users are welcome, parasites are not.

Jacopo

Andrew Dupa wrote:

> Thanks - that's great brett. I knew someone would get it. Thanks your
> reply is exactly what I was after.
>  
> Couple more questions.
>  
> On the 1st point do you by chance still have the SQL to manually delete
> these jobs records as part of your regular achive stratergy? If your
> solution worked I'd like to use that than roll my own.
>  
> Also I'm interested in setting up the custom service to delete these old
> records. Are you able to provide some detailed instructions as to how to
> do this?  It would help greatly if you provided some pointers.
>  
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>

 
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

[Jacques Le Roux]

Hi all,

Be cool Jacopo,

Did you notice that in "professional team of senior java devs" there is one word
: "Senior". I'm also a senior and perhaps, as me, they are tired and want help
from junior strengths ;o)

Jacques

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jacopo Cappellato" <[hidden email]>
To: "OFBiz Users / Usage Discussion" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [OFBiz] Users - JOB _SANDBOX

> Andrew,
>
> why don't you ask these questions to the "professional team of senior
> java devs" you are working with?
>
> I really think that, first of all, you should stop asking questions here
> and publicly apologize with Chris Howe for your words.
>
> In this list (and community) users are welcome, parasites are not.
>
> Jacopo
>
> Andrew Dupa wrote:
> > Thanks - that's great brett. I knew someone would get it. Thanks your
> > reply is exactly what I was after.
> >
> > Couple more questions.
> >
> > On the 1st point do you by chance still have the SQL to manually delete
> > these jobs records as part of your regular achive stratergy? If your
> > solution worked I'd like to use that than roll my own.
> >
> > Also I'm interested in setting up the custom service to delete these old
> > records. Are you able to provide some detailed instructions as to how to
> > do this?  It would help greatly if you provided some pointers.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Andrew
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

 
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

[Andrew Dupa]

Well I guess I'll just work it out by reading the code and looking at the data model. My question was I thought pretty straight forward, unfortunately people responded without thinking.
 

I was hoping this community would be smart and intelligent enough to support end users but they are it seems completely lost in a world of never ending development which never brings out the real world issues. No release management, no testing framework no stability. Users who don't read questions but answer with the bleeding obvious.

 

I'm trying to help a friend out here and there must be a few people running this platform in the real world who I can ask and get an intelligent answer. I wasn't pointing out the problems I was asking for a work around.

 

 

You may all get off on being morally superior and making your little jobes but who among you could cut it in  the real world? Come and work i seattle for Amazon, google microsoft and see how good your skills are. Could you pass the interview? Could you cut it on the compiler team? that's beside the point but please do go back and read my original question, David I apologise if I offended you, I have no problem with you, your answer you must admit gave no information that wasn't provided in the original question.

 

Please accept my apology Chris and everyone it was out of line, I don't know you and it was wrong of me to publicly flame you. Although let's admit it you needed to be told to read and undertand first before replying.

 

On 2/2/06, Jacopo Cappellato <[hidden email]> wrote:

Andrew,

why don't you ask these questions to the "professional team of senior
java devs" you are working with?

I really think that, first of all, you should stop asking questions here
and publicly apologize with Chris Howe for your words.

In this list (and community) users are welcome, parasites are not.

Jacopo

Andrew Dupa wrote:

> Thanks - that's great brett. I knew someone would get it. Thanks your
> reply is exactly what I was after.
>
> Couple more questions.
>
> On the 1st point do you by chance still have the SQL to manually delete
> these jobs records as part of your regular achive stratergy? If your
> solution worked I'd like to use that than roll my own.
>
> Also I'm interested in setting up the custom service to delete these old
> records. Are you able to provide some detailed instructions as to how to
> do this?  It would help greatly if you provided some pointers.
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>

_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

 
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

[Daniel Kunkel]

Thanks Andrew for that.

I'm pretty sure most of the guys here know how stressful and insanely
frustrating it can be to have a critical business system down, and know
that it is probably easy to fix if you just could get the right help.

OFBiz is admittedly rough around the edges, and given the very limited
resources available to this gigantic project makes it so very difficult
to find the right balance between breaking it to get the job done vs.
the much slower path of keeping it tested and working and usable at
every step.

Take care...


On Fri, 2006-02-03 at 00:56 -0800, Andrew Dupa wrote:

> Well I guess I'll just work it out by reading the code and looking at
> the data model. My question was I thought pretty straight forward,
> unfortunately people responded without thinking.
>  
> I was hoping this community would be smart and intelligent enough to
> support end users but they are it seems completely lost in a world of
> never ending development which never brings out the real world issues.
> No release management, no testing framework no stability. Users who
> don't read questions but answer with the bleeding obvious.
>  
> I'm trying to help a friend out here and there must be a few people
> running this platform in the real world who I can ask and get an
> intelligent answer. I wasn't pointing out the problems I was asking
> for a work around.
>  
>  
> You may all get off on being morally superior and making your little
> jobes but who among you could cut it in  the real world? Come and work
> i seattle for Amazon, google microsoft and see how good your
> skills are. Could you pass the interview? Could you cut it on the
> compiler team? that's beside the point but please do go back and read
> my original question, David I apologise if I offended you, I have no
> problem with you, your answer you must admit gave no information that
> wasn't provided in the original question.
>  
> Please accept my apology Chris and everyone it was out of line, I
> don't know you and it was wrong of me to publicly flame you. Although
> let's admit it you needed to be told to read and undertand first
> before replying.
>  
> On 2/2/06, Jacopo Cappellato <[hidden email]> wrote:
>         Andrew,
>        
>         why don't you ask these questions to the "professional team of
>         senior
>         java devs" you are working with?
>        
>         I really think that, first of all, you should stop asking
>         questions here
>         and publicly apologize with Chris Howe for your words.
>        
>         In this list (and community) users are welcome, parasites are
>         not.
>        
>         Jacopo
>        
>         Andrew Dupa wrote:
>         > Thanks - that's great brett. I knew someone would get it.
>         Thanks your
>         > reply is exactly what I was after.
>         >
>         > Couple more questions.
>         >
>         > On the 1st point do you by chance still have the SQL to
>         manually delete
>         > these jobs records as part of your regular achive stratergy?
>         If your
>         > solution worked I'd like to use that than roll my own.
>         >
>         > Also I'm interested in setting up the custom service to
>         delete these old
>         > records. Are you able to provide some detailed instructions
>         as to how to
>         > do this?  It would help greatly if you provided some
>         pointers.
>         >
>         > Thanks,
>         > Andrew
>         >
>        
>        
>        
>         _______________________________________________
>         Users mailing list
>         [hidden email]
>         http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>
>  _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

 
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

[Brett]

Andrew,

Sorry I didn't respond sooner, but it has been a while since we worked
on the problems with the job_sandbox.  Our system admin currently runs
the SQL archival commands manually when the job_sandbox gets too big.
The community has responded with some good solutions for manually
removing records from the job_sandbox.  Here are some things we look
for:

1. Records that have a status_id="SERVICE_FINISHED" are easy to
remove.  We usually remove this if they are a month old.

2. Records that have a status_id="SERVICE_RUNNING" but the
start_date_time is very old.  These services were probably killed
during a shutdown or something else and have no chance of completing.

For example:

delete from job_sandbox where status_id='SERVICE_RUNNING' and
start_date_time < '2005-12-31';

3. Change services that frequently fail to have a max-retry.  We
currently use a max-retry 3 but some may want a higher threshold.  As
I mentioned, most of our services that fail are E-mail notifications
and if they fail once they usually always fail.

4. Automated service:  We don't have an automated service right now
but there is an example of an automated service in ofbiz.  You could
use it as an example of how to create "autoDeleteJobSandboxServices"
services.

In the order/data/OrderScheduledServices.xml the
"autoCancelOrderItems" is scheduled to run each day.  This service is
then defined in the order/servicedef/services.xml file and is
implemented in the
org.ofbiz.order.order.OrderServices.cancelFlaggedSalesOrders.java
file.  The service doesn't do a delete but you could write a similar
service that does deletes in the job_sandbox entity per your own
specifications.

If you have more specific questions let me know.


Brett



On 2/2/06, Andrew Dupa <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks - that's great brett. I knew someone would get it. Thanks your reply
> is exactly what I was after.
>
> Couple more questions.
>
> On the 1st point do you by chance still have the SQL to manually delete
> these jobs records as part of your regular achive stratergy? If your
> solution worked I'd like to use that than roll my own.
>
> Also I'm interested in setting up the custom service to delete these old
> records. Are you able to provide some detailed instructions as to how to do
> this?  It would help greatly if you provided some pointers.
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>
>
> On 2/2/06, Brett Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Andrew,
> >
> > See comments below:
> >
> > On 2/1/06, Andrew Dupa < [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > I'll stick to the facts -
> > >
> > > 1st problem
> > > Webtools admin screen around scheduled jobs doesn not work due to the
> large
> > > amount of data in the database. to get around this probem how I would
> like
> > > to delete the old un-used records. i would like to understand or hear
> form
> > > someone who has this problem before how to best go about it. I don't
> want to
> > > guess about what records to delete, if someone can give me a definitive
> > > answer than great.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, we have seen the same problem on our production boxes when the
> > job_sandbox table is large.  This is a limitation in the
> > implementation that should be fixed.  We have worked around it by
> > creating custom services to remove failed jobs.  We have also manually
> > deleted these records through the database as part of our regular
> > archival strategy.  I agree that these are not the best solutions, but
> > fixing the webtools application has not been a priority for us.
> >
> > > 2nd problem
> > > I have scheduled jobs that are failing but are reschedlued to run later,
> > > they have no hope of runing sucessfully so I would like to
> > > cancel/stop/delete them. again I can't do this thru the admin screen in
> > > webtools because it doens't work (because there's a lot of records in
> the
> > > database) if someone could tell me how to stop the scheduled jobs, i.e.
> not
> > > stop important ones but just the ones i identify as problem jobs I would
> > > appreciate that. remember the admin tools provided don't work because of
> the
> > > large amount of data in the database. So I can log in to the databse and
> do
> > > it thru SQL if someone can describe the data model or what to look for.
> > >
> >
> > We aso had problems with failed services continually retrying.  For
> > example, email notifications that had an incorrect E-mail address
> > would continually attempt to send and fail.  Services by default run
> > forever.  We changed these services to have a max-retry of 3.   This
> > prevented the run-away condition we saw with failed services that had
> > no chance of correcting themselves.  Here is a sample service
> > definition with the max-retry set:
> >
> > <service name="someService" engine="java"
> >           location="SomeService"
> invoke="sendEmailNotification"
> >           use-transaction="false"
> require-new-transaction="false"
> > max-retry="3">
> >        <attribute name="sendTo" type="String" mode="IN" optional="false"/>
> >        <attribute name="sendFrom" type="String" mode="IN"
> optional="false"/>
> >        <attribute name="sendBcc" type="String" mode="IN" optional="true"/>
> >        <attribute name="subject" type="String" mode="IN" optional="false"
> />
> >    </service>
> >
> >
> > Hope that sounds somewhat intelligent.
> >
> >
> > Brett
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>
>

 
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

[Andrew Dupa]

Thanks Brett, I've set up another instance so I can play around with the data and figure out what exactly needs to be done. The info you provided was exactly the poitners I needed.

 

Thanks Again

 

On 2/3/06, Brett Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Andrew,

Sorry I didn't respond sooner, but it has been a while since we worked
on the problems with the job_sandbox.  Our system admin currently runs
the SQL archival commands manually when the job_sandbox gets too big.
The community has responded with some good solutions for manually
removing records from the job_sandbox.  Here are some things we look
for:

1. Records that have a status_id="SERVICE_FINISHED" are easy to
remove.  We usually remove this if they are a month old.

2. Records that have a status_id="SERVICE_RUNNING" but the
start_date_time is very old.  These services were probably killed
during a shutdown or something else and have no chance of completing.

For example:

delete from job_sandbox where status_id='SERVICE_RUNNING' and
start_date_time < '2005-12-31';

3. Change services that frequently fail to have a max-retry.  We
currently use a max-retry 3 but some may want a higher threshold.  As
I mentioned, most of our services that fail are E-mail notifications
and if they fail once they usually always fail.

4. Automated service:  We don't have an automated service right now
but there is an example of an automated service in ofbiz.  You could
use it as an example of how to create "autoDeleteJobSandboxServices"
services.

In the order/data/OrderScheduledServices.xml the
"autoCancelOrderItems" is scheduled to run each day.  This service is
then defined in the order/servicedef/services.xml file and is
implemented in the
org.ofbiz.order.order.OrderServices.cancelFlaggedSalesOrders.java
file.  The service doesn't do a delete but you could write a similar
service that does deletes in the job_sandbox entity per your own
specifications.

If you have more specific questions let me know.


Brett



On 2/2/06, Andrew Dupa <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks - that's great brett. I knew someone would get it. Thanks your reply
> is exactly what I was after.
>
> Couple more questions.
>
> On the 1st point do you by chance still have the SQL to manually delete
> these jobs records as part of your regular achive stratergy? If your
> solution worked I'd like to use that than roll my own.
>
> Also I'm interested in setting up the custom service to delete these old
> records. Are you able to provide some detailed instructions as to how to do
> this?  It would help greatly if you provided some pointers.
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>
>
> On 2/2/06, Brett Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Andrew,
> >
> > See comments below:
> >
> > On 2/1/06, Andrew Dupa < [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > I'll stick to the facts -
> > >
> > > 1st problem
> > > Webtools admin screen around scheduled jobs doesn not work due to the
> large
> > > amount of data in the database. to get around this probem how I would
> like
> > > to delete the old un-used records. i would like to understand or hear
> form
> > > someone who has this problem before how to best go about it. I don't
> want to

> > > guess about what records to delete, if someone can give me a definitive

> > > answer than great.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, we have seen the same problem on our production boxes when the
> > job_sandbox table is large.  This is a limitation in the
> > implementation that should be fixed.  We have worked around it by
> > creating custom services to remove failed jobs.  We have also manually
> > deleted these records through the database as part of our regular
> > archival strategy.  I agree that these are not the best solutions, but
> > fixing the webtools application has not been a priority for us.
> >
> > > 2nd problem
> > > I have scheduled jobs that are failing but are reschedlued to run later,
> > > they have no hope of runing sucessfully so I would like to
> > > cancel/stop/delete them. again I can't do this thru the admin screen in
> > > webtools because it doens't work (because there's a lot of records in
> the
> > > database) if someone could tell me how to stop the scheduled jobs, i.e.
> not
> > > stop important ones but just the ones i identify as problem jobs I would
> > > appreciate that. remember the admin tools provided don't work because of
> the
> > > large amount of data in the database. So I can log in to the databse and
> do
> > > it thru SQL if someone can describe the data model or what to look for.
> > >
> >
> > We aso had problems with failed services continually retrying.  For
> > example, email notifications that had an incorrect E-mail address
> > would continually attempt to send and fail.  Services by default run
> > forever.  We changed these services to have a max-retry of 3.   This
> > prevented the run-away condition we saw with failed services that had
> > no chance of correcting themselves.  Here is a sample service
> > definition with the max-retry set:
> >
> > <service name="someService" engine="java"
> >           location="SomeService"
> invoke="sendEmailNotification"
> >           use-transaction="false"
> require-new-transaction="false"
> > max-retry="3">
> >        <attribute name="sendTo" type="String" mode="IN" optional="false"/>
> >        <attribute name="sendFrom" type="String" mode="IN"
> optional="false"/>
> >        <attribute name="sendBcc" type="String" mode="IN" optional="true"/>
> >        <attribute name="subject" type="String" mode="IN" optional="false"
> />
> >    </service>
> >
> >
> > Hope that sounds somewhat intelligent.
> >
> >
> > Brett
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>
>

_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

 
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

[David E. Jones]

On Feb 3, 2006, at 1:56 AM, Andrew Dupa wrote:

> Well I guess I'll just work it out by reading the code and looking  
> at the data model. My question was I thought pretty straight  
> forward, unfortunately people responded without thinking.
>
> I was hoping this community would be smart and intelligent enough  
> to support end users but they are it seems completely lost in a  
> world of never ending development which never brings out the real  
> world issues. No release management, no testing framework no  
> stability. Users who don't read questions but answer with the  
> bleeding obvious.

This, perhaps, comes from a misunderstanding of what OFBiz is. It is  
clear that it isn't what you expected it to be, and that is the case  
for many people who are used to purchasing a piece of software and  
becoming a "user" of the software.

In a community-oriented open source project like OFBiz it only exists  
because the community drives it. There is no company involved. No  
investment from venture capitalists or angels and no bank loans or  
anything (well, except maybe American Express and various other  
credit card and home equity lenders during slower periods... ;) ).

That means that the dozens of people who contribute to the project on  
a regular basis and the hundreds of people who use the software in  
their jobs generally can't get involved, I mean really simply cannot  
get involved, unless they find some work doing so. Andy and I  
invested quite a bit early on in the project, but this is certainly  
true of us. Neither of us (while I guess I'm not really sure about  
Andy) have a net worth in the black and without money coming in from  
consulting work, we'd be in trouble pretty quickly... Actually, it's  
not so bad, if it weren't for my ex-wife I'd probably be working 1  
week a month for pay, another week per month on the project, and then  
spending the remaining time cruising the world on the BMW GS  
adventure bike I've been craving for years...

Anyway, back to the point. OFBiz is a community driven project. We  
all get along as we can and help move the forward as we can, and to  
date ALL significant contributions to the project have been impelled  
mostly by making things easier and cheaper in the future for those  
involved. Lots of people have wanted to help, but it is just too much  
to do as an amateur (unless you have no need for an income... but  
even then without a project driving requirements and understanding,  
it is hard to get your head around).

So, are there issues? Yeah. It sounds like you want to be involved  
with the project as a casual user, and that's almost impossible with  
OFBiz. If you aren't involved with the community and working  
regularly with the project then you pretty much have to hire someone  
who is involved with the community and has invested sufficiently to  
be able to work well with it.

How is that different from major ERP packages? For them a "release"  
is the same as for us, and they have the same problem with testing as  
we do (ie the moving target problem). For them a "release" or a  
standardized version is mostly just a sales and marketing tool. Once  
these systems are customized (or "installed") out of the box testing  
(except for low level components... maybe that's why we have entity  
engine unit tests but not much else?) is not very useful, unless they  
maintain the tests in parallel with the customizations. They will  
also have various patches and changes that bring their system to a  
state of being a creation like that of the good Dr. Frankenstein:  
some of the "version" they think they have, some of the next version  
(but not all), and a bunch of changes that they alone are responsible  
for maintaining.

Eventually OFBiz may be more usable for those who want out of the box  
use and no involvement whatsoever in the community, but it's not  
there yet, and I've written that dozens of times (look at my blog,  
the mailing lists, etc for all sorts of things along these lines).  
Releases in OFBiz have historically just been marketing efforts. For  
anyone doing customization it is a BAD BAD BAD idea to base it on a  
release. That will effectively cut them off from interaction with the  
community, and it will make it difficult to the point of "not worth  
it" to contribute to the project. If everyone just used releases,  
OFBiz would simply not exist.

So, I'll say it again: if you aren't involved with the community or  
interested in becoming involved then hire someone that is or you'll  
be in pain for a long while. It's like "installation" SAP without any  
help... not many do that and if they do they hire people with  
experience to work on it. There are dozens of service provider  
companies all around the world, but don't expect most of them to  
advertise much in the OFBiz world. Most of the live sites and other  
deployments of OFBiz are sold by the service provider, only a few  
companies survive based on the references that come through the open  
source project....

Hopefully that's good enough for now... This sort of question comes  
up a lot and I try to throw something like this out to the mailing  
lists or somewhere every other month or so to make it easier to find.

-David


 
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

[BJ Freeman]

I have some of the same concerns, and have expressed them.
out of that Si came up with builds.

So I started with 3.0 then migrated to 3.1 and 3.2.
I have invested time and money in stabilizing the version I have. And I
developed a method to upgrade from the SVN. However I do not do this
with every update.

Thought clients pay me thousands of dollars to install and maintain
ofbiz for them, I still have not recouped my Cost.

Yet, I would not be this far, had it not be for the Core code that has
been developed, so my hats off.

Yes, I donate 10%, when A client pays me.

I would donate the code I use, but it does not follow the guidelines set
down.

David, andy and I may not see eye to eye, time to time, however I
respect and appreciate the effort they and other have contributed.




David E. Jones sent the following on 2/3/06 12:46 PM:

>
> On Feb 3, 2006, at 1:56 AM, Andrew Dupa wrote:
>
>> Well I guess I'll just work it out by reading the code and looking  at
>> the data model. My question was I thought pretty straight  forward,
>> unfortunately people responded without thinking.
>>
>> I was hoping this community would be smart and intelligent enough  to
>> support end users but they are it seems completely lost in a  world of
>> never ending development which never brings out the real  world
>> issues. No release management, no testing framework no  stability.
>> Users who don't read questions but answer with the  bleeding obvious.
>
>
> This, perhaps, comes from a misunderstanding of what OFBiz is. It is  
> clear that it isn't what you expected it to be, and that is the case  
> for many people who are used to purchasing a piece of software and  
> becoming a "user" of the software.
>
> In a community-oriented open source project like OFBiz it only exists  
> because the community drives it. There is no company involved. No  
> investment from venture capitalists or angels and no bank loans or  
> anything (well, except maybe American Express and various other  credit
> card and home equity lenders during slower periods... ;) ).
>
> That means that the dozens of people who contribute to the project on  a
> regular basis and the hundreds of people who use the software in  their
> jobs generally can't get involved, I mean really simply cannot  get
> involved, unless they find some work doing so. Andy and I  invested
> quite a bit early on in the project, but this is certainly  true of us.
> Neither of us (while I guess I'm not really sure about  Andy) have a net
> worth in the black and without money coming in from  consulting work,
> we'd be in trouble pretty quickly... Actually, it's  not so bad, if it
> weren't for my ex-wife I'd probably be working 1  week a month for pay,
> another week per month on the project, and then  spending the remaining
> time cruising the world on the BMW GS  adventure bike I've been craving
> for years...
>
> Anyway, back to the point. OFBiz is a community driven project. We  all
> get along as we can and help move the forward as we can, and to  date
> ALL significant contributions to the project have been impelled  mostly
> by making things easier and cheaper in the future for those  involved.
> Lots of people have wanted to help, but it is just too much  to do as an
> amateur (unless you have no need for an income... but  even then without
> a project driving requirements and understanding,  it is hard to get
> your head around).
>
> So, are there issues? Yeah. It sounds like you want to be involved  with
> the project as a casual user, and that's almost impossible with  OFBiz.
> If you aren't involved with the community and working  regularly with
> the project then you pretty much have to hire someone  who is involved
> with the community and has invested sufficiently to  be able to work
> well with it.
>
> How is that different from major ERP packages? For them a "release"  is
> the same as for us, and they have the same problem with testing as  we
> do (ie the moving target problem). For them a "release" or a  
> standardized version is mostly just a sales and marketing tool. Once  
> these systems are customized (or "installed") out of the box testing  
> (except for low level components... maybe that's why we have entity  
> engine unit tests but not much else?) is not very useful, unless they  
> maintain the tests in parallel with the customizations. They will  also
> have various patches and changes that bring their system to a  state of
> being a creation like that of the good Dr. Frankenstein:  some of the
> "version" they think they have, some of the next version  (but not all),
> and a bunch of changes that they alone are responsible  for maintaining.
>
> Eventually OFBiz may be more usable for those who want out of the box  
> use and no involvement whatsoever in the community, but it's not  there
> yet, and I've written that dozens of times (look at my blog,  the
> mailing lists, etc for all sorts of things along these lines).  Releases
> in OFBiz have historically just been marketing efforts. For  anyone
> doing customization it is a BAD BAD BAD idea to base it on a  release.
> That will effectively cut them off from interaction with the  community,
> and it will make it difficult to the point of "not worth  it" to
> contribute to the project. If everyone just used releases,  OFBiz would
> simply not exist.
>
> So, I'll say it again: if you aren't involved with the community or  
> interested in becoming involved then hire someone that is or you'll  be
> in pain for a long while. It's like "installation" SAP without any  
> help... not many do that and if they do they hire people with  
> experience to work on it. There are dozens of service provider  
> companies all around the world, but don't expect most of them to  
> advertise much in the OFBiz world. Most of the live sites and other  
> deployments of OFBiz are sold by the service provider, only a few  
> companies survive based on the references that come through the open  
> source project....
>
> Hopefully that's good enough for now... This sort of question comes  up
> a lot and I try to throw something like this out to the mailing  lists
> or somewhere every other month or so to make it easier to find.
>
> -David
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

 
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

[Jacques Le Roux]

From: "bjfree" <[hidden email]>

> I have some of the same concerns, and have expressed them.
> out of that Si came up with builds.
>
> So I started with 3.0 then migrated to 3.1 and 3.2.
> I have invested time and money in stabilizing the version I have. And I
> developed a method to upgrade from the SVN. However I do not do this
> with every update.
>
> Thought clients pay me thousands of dollars to install and maintain
> ofbiz for them, I still have not recouped my Cost.
>
> Yet, I would not be this far, had it not be for the Core code that has
> been developed, so my hats off.
>
> Yes, I donate 10%, when A client pays me.

That's great BJ, are you donating to Undersun ?

Jacques

> I would donate the code I use, but it does not follow the guidelines set
> down.
>
> David, andy and I may not see eye to eye, time to time, however I
> respect and appreciate the effort they and other have contributed.
>

Sure and I think you are not the only one !

Jacques

>
>
> David E. Jones sent the following on 2/3/06 12:46 PM:
> >
> > On Feb 3, 2006, at 1:56 AM, Andrew Dupa wrote:
> >
> >> Well I guess I'll just work it out by reading the code and looking  at
> >> the data model. My question was I thought pretty straight  forward,
> >> unfortunately people responded without thinking.
> >>
> >> I was hoping this community would be smart and intelligent enough  to
> >> support end users but they are it seems completely lost in a  world of
> >> never ending development which never brings out the real  world
> >> issues. No release management, no testing framework no  stability.
> >> Users who don't read questions but answer with the  bleeding obvious.
> >
> >
> > This, perhaps, comes from a misunderstanding of what OFBiz is. It is  
> > clear that it isn't what you expected it to be, and that is the case  
> > for many people who are used to purchasing a piece of software and  
> > becoming a "user" of the software.
> >
> > In a community-oriented open source project like OFBiz it only exists  
> > because the community drives it. There is no company involved. No  
> > investment from venture capitalists or angels and no bank loans or  
> > anything (well, except maybe American Express and various other  credit
> > card and home equity lenders during slower periods... ;) ).
> >
> > That means that the dozens of people who contribute to the project on  a
> > regular basis and the hundreds of people who use the software in  their
> > jobs generally can't get involved, I mean really simply cannot  get
> > involved, unless they find some work doing so. Andy and I  invested
> > quite a bit early on in the project, but this is certainly  true of us.
> > Neither of us (while I guess I'm not really sure about  Andy) have a net
> > worth in the black and without money coming in from  consulting work,
> > we'd be in trouble pretty quickly... Actually, it's  not so bad, if it
> > weren't for my ex-wife I'd probably be working 1  week a month for pay,
> > another week per month on the project, and then  spending the remaining
> > time cruising the world on the BMW GS  adventure bike I've been craving
> > for years...
> >
> > Anyway, back to the point. OFBiz is a community driven project. We  all
> > get along as we can and help move the forward as we can, and to  date
> > ALL significant contributions to the project have been impelled  mostly
> > by making things easier and cheaper in the future for those  involved.
> > Lots of people have wanted to help, but it is just too much  to do as an
> > amateur (unless you have no need for an income... but  even then without
> > a project driving requirements and understanding,  it is hard to get
> > your head around).
> >
> > So, are there issues? Yeah. It sounds like you want to be involved  with
> > the project as a casual user, and that's almost impossible with  OFBiz.
> > If you aren't involved with the community and working  regularly with
> > the project then you pretty much have to hire someone  who is involved
> > with the community and has invested sufficiently to  be able to work
> > well with it.
> >
> > How is that different from major ERP packages? For them a "release"  is
> > the same as for us, and they have the same problem with testing as  we
> > do (ie the moving target problem). For them a "release" or a  
> > standardized version is mostly just a sales and marketing tool. Once  
> > these systems are customized (or "installed") out of the box testing  
> > (except for low level components... maybe that's why we have entity  
> > engine unit tests but not much else?) is not very useful, unless they  
> > maintain the tests in parallel with the customizations. They will  also
> > have various patches and changes that bring their system to a  state of
> > being a creation like that of the good Dr. Frankenstein:  some of the
> > "version" they think they have, some of the next version  (but not all),
> > and a bunch of changes that they alone are responsible  for maintaining.
> >
> > Eventually OFBiz may be more usable for those who want out of the box  
> > use and no involvement whatsoever in the community, but it's not  there
> > yet, and I've written that dozens of times (look at my blog,  the
> > mailing lists, etc for all sorts of things along these lines).  Releases
> > in OFBiz have historically just been marketing efforts. For  anyone
> > doing customization it is a BAD BAD BAD idea to base it on a  release.
> > That will effectively cut them off from interaction with the  community,
> > and it will make it difficult to the point of "not worth  it" to
> > contribute to the project. If everyone just used releases,  OFBiz would
> > simply not exist.
> >
> > So, I'll say it again: if you aren't involved with the community or  
> > interested in becoming involved then hire someone that is or you'll  be
> > in pain for a long while. It's like "installation" SAP without any  
> > help... not many do that and if they do they hire people with  
> > experience to work on it. There are dozens of service provider  
> > companies all around the world, but don't expect most of them to  
> > advertise much in the OFBiz world. Most of the live sites and other  
> > deployments of OFBiz are sold by the service provider, only a few  
> > companies survive based on the references that come through the open  
> > source project....
> >
> > Hopefully that's good enough for now... This sort of question comes  up
> > a lot and I try to throw something like this out to the mailing  lists
> > or somewhere every other month or so to make it easier to find.
> >
> > -David
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >  
> > _______________________________________________
> > Users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

 
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

[Daniel Kunkel]

Hi

> > I would donate the code I use, but it does not follow the guidelines set
> > down.
> >
> > David, andy and I may not see eye to eye, time to time, however I
> > respect and appreciate the effort they and other have contributed.
> >
>
> Sure and I think you are not the only one !
>
> Jacques

<soapbox>
It really hurts to see that a lot of time and energy has gone into
improving OFBiz by various groups that are willing to share their
changes, and are not simply because they believe their changes are not
currently appropriate to be directly introduced to the trunk.

I would like to see this change...

We're missing the point of open-source. Linus Torvalds could never had
gotten linux to the place it is now in a hundred years if he had worked
alone instead of sharing and exciting the mind, hearts, and energy of
thousands of developers around the world. David and Andy I'm sure
realize that the project wouldn't be where it is today without the
efforts of many others.

Open Source works because working together works.

I'm not suggesting that any of these changes be put back into the
project if they really don't conform to the programming standards, but
by all means, if someone has taken the time and effort and expense to
make changes, AND is willing to SHARE those changes back to the
community, it's worth finding a place to the catalog the changes.

My bet is that if one group found it worth their while to write the
changes, more often than not, other groups need the same changes too. I
also believe that the most useful and needed of the modifications will
be morphed into a form that is acceptable to be included back into the
project.

One not on proprietary enhancements...  

I'm not suggesting that each and every change a company makes needs to
be shared back... I can understand not sharing if you've created a
proprietary enhancement that gives your company an edge on your
competitors, or if it is so directly related to your way of doing
business it's not-likely to be useful...

Can we find a way to share these changes, possibly as a Jira issue with
a patch, or a wiki section, or both?
</soapbox>

Thanks

--
Daniel

*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-
Have a GREAT Day!

Daniel Kunkel           [hidden email]
BioWaves, LLC           http://www.BioWaves.com
14150 NE 20th St. Suite F1
Bellevue, WA 98007
800-734-3588    425-895-0050
http://www.Apartment-Pets.com  http://www.Focus-Illusion.com
http://www.Brain-Fun.com       http://www.ColorGlasses.com
*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-

 
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

[David E. Jones]

I agree with Daniel on this, even these less than sure contributions  
can certainly have a place.

The best place to put these sorts of changes is in Jira new feature  
"issues". If you don't feel your patch is up to snuff, but it is  
helpful for you, just write out your thoughts. These sorts of patches  
may not make it into the project right away, but what would be  
_ideal_ for these and all patches is for people to try them out and  
comment on them, and where possible improve them.

I guess the main point with this sort of thing is that you never know  
where it will go... We've tried out all sorts of things over the  
years. Some have been thrown out (yeah, many tens of thousands of  
lines of code) and others have blossomed and fit together in ways we  
never even expected... all because through wide collaboration ideas  
can flow more freely and lots of people reviewing something will come  
up with stuff that is a lot better than any individual could ever  
come up with.

-David


On Feb 4, 2006, at 1:03 AM, Daniel Kunkel wrote:

> Hi
>
>>> I would donate the code I use, but it does not follow the  
>>> guidelines set
>>> down.
>>>
>>> David, andy and I may not see eye to eye, time to time, however I
>>> respect and appreciate the effort they and other have contributed.
>>>
>>
>> Sure and I think you are not the only one !
>>
>> Jacques
>
> <soapbox>
> It really hurts to see that a lot of time and energy has gone into
> improving OFBiz by various groups that are willing to share their
> changes, and are not simply because they believe their changes are not
> currently appropriate to be directly introduced to the trunk.
>
> I would like to see this change...
>
> We're missing the point of open-source. Linus Torvalds could never had
> gotten linux to the place it is now in a hundred years if he had  
> worked
> alone instead of sharing and exciting the mind, hearts, and energy of
> thousands of developers around the world. David and Andy I'm sure
> realize that the project wouldn't be where it is today without the
> efforts of many others.
>
> Open Source works because working together works.
>
> I'm not suggesting that any of these changes be put back into the
> project if they really don't conform to the programming standards, but
> by all means, if someone has taken the time and effort and expense to
> make changes, AND is willing to SHARE those changes back to the
> community, it's worth finding a place to the catalog the changes.
>
> My bet is that if one group found it worth their while to write the
> changes, more often than not, other groups need the same changes  
> too. I
> also believe that the most useful and needed of the modifications will
> be morphed into a form that is acceptable to be included back into the
> project.
>
> One not on proprietary enhancements...
>
> I'm not suggesting that each and every change a company makes needs to
> be shared back... I can understand not sharing if you've created a
> proprietary enhancement that gives your company an edge on your
> competitors, or if it is so directly related to your way of doing
> business it's not-likely to be useful...
>
> Can we find a way to share these changes, possibly as a Jira issue  
> with
> a patch, or a wiki section, or both?
> </soapbox>
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Daniel
>
> *-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-
> Have a GREAT Day!
>
> Daniel Kunkel           [hidden email]
> BioWaves, LLC           http://www.BioWaves.com
> 14150 NE 20th St. Suite F1
> Bellevue, WA 98007
> 800-734-3588    425-895-0050
> http://www.Apartment-Pets.com  http://www.Focus-Illusion.com
> http://www.Brain-Fun.com       http://www.ColorGlasses.com
> *-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

 
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users