bpel and bpmn

[davidnwelton]

I saw some guy talking about BPEL and BPMN at the Java conference
yesterday in Milan.  There was a thick layer of marketing slop on the
presentation, but the idea at heart seems interesting - let people do
high level processes in a flow-chart like notation that can be boiled
down to something that eventually executes.

What do you guys think?

--
David N. Welton
 - http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/

Linux, Open Source Consulting
 - http://www.dedasys.com/

[Andrew Sykes]

David,

Sounds cool, I've often thought that minilang lends itself to an
additional layer of abstraction like this.

So all we need to do now is to write a "Dreamweaver" for minilang - I'll
do it this evening! ;-)

Joking aside, it would be interesting to hear David (Jones) thoughts on
whether such a thing was possible. It's certainly not easy!


On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 11:54 +0200, David Welton wrote:
> I saw some guy talking about BPEL and BPMN at the Java conference
> yesterday in Milan.  There was a thick layer of marketing slop on the
> presentation, but the idea at heart seems interesting - let people do
> high level processes in a flow-chart like notation that can be boiled
> down to something that eventually executes.
>
> What do you guys think?
>
--
Kind Regards
Andrew Sykes <[hidden email]>
Sykes Development Ltd
http://www.sykesdevelopment.com

[BJ Freeman]

I believe that was the Idea behind UML (unified Modeling Language)
http://www.omg.org/technology/documents/formal/uml.htm
It really never got accepted. .


David Welton sent the following on 6/29/2006 2:54 AM:
> I saw some guy talking about BPEL and BPMN at the Java conference
> yesterday in Milan.  There was a thick layer of marketing slop on the
> presentation, but the idea at heart seems interesting - let people do
> high level processes in a flow-chart like notation that can be boiled
> down to something that eventually executes.
>
> What do you guys think?
>

[davidnwelton]

> I believe that was the Idea behind UML (unified Modeling Language)
> http://www.omg.org/technology/documents/formal/uml.htm
> It really never got accepted. .

I think this aims to be much more specific than UML, which is used for
all kinds of things.  It describes services, and how they interact,
rather than database tables or objects, or other low level things of
that nature.  Perhaps it has a shot at working if it doesn't try to be
everything to everyone.

Some healthy skepticism is in order, but the idea is interesting.  I
would love to offload the design of these processes to my boss, and
let a computer worry about translating them into something runnable
(rather than sitting down and doing it myself:-).  But perhaps that's
just a dream, and in reality the system doesn't work out that well, or
requires an army of people to implement.

Anyway, just sort of curious what others thought.

--
David N. Welton
 - http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/

Linux, Open Source Consulting
 - http://www.dedasys.com/

[BJ Freeman]

Parkinson's law, though is about work expanding to meet the resources.
a lesser known one is the way to win an argument is to speak in an area
that the others can not comprehend so they will not show their ignorance
by speaking against it.

Most of these modeling proposition, are the same, unless you are a
zealot about it.

which boils down to good luck.
LOL.

David Welton sent the following on 6/29/2006 4:18 AM:

>> I believe that was the Idea behind UML (unified Modeling Language)
>> http://www.omg.org/technology/documents/formal/uml.htm
>> It really never got accepted. .
>
> I think this aims to be much more specific than UML, which is used for
> all kinds of things.  It describes services, and how they interact,
> rather than database tables or objects, or other low level things of
> that nature.  Perhaps it has a shot at working if it doesn't try to be
> everything to everyone.
>
> Some healthy skepticism is in order, but the idea is interesting.  I
> would love to offload the design of these processes to my boss, and
> let a computer worry about translating them into something runnable
> (rather than sitting down and doing it myself:-).  But perhaps that's
> just a dream, and in reality the system doesn't work out that well, or
> requires an army of people to implement.
>
> Anyway, just sort of curious what others thought.
>

[Ravish Kamath]

Andrew,

Is this idea very similar to JGraph (http://www.jgraph.com/) ?

cheers,
ravish

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Sykes [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 4:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: bpel and bpmn


David,

Sounds cool, I've often thought that minilang lends itself to an
additional layer of abstraction like this.

So all we need to do now is to write a "Dreamweaver" for minilang - I'll
do it this evening! ;-)

Joking aside, it would be interesting to hear David (Jones) thoughts on
whether such a thing was possible. It's certainly not easy!


On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 11:54 +0200, David Welton wrote:
> I saw some guy talking about BPEL and BPMN at the Java conference
> yesterday in Milan.  There was a thick layer of marketing slop on the
> presentation, but the idea at heart seems interesting - let people do
> high level processes in a flow-chart like notation that can be boiled
> down to something that eventually executes.
>
> What do you guys think?
>
--
Kind Regards
Andrew Sykes <[hidden email]>
Sykes Development Ltd
http://www.sykesdevelopment.com

[Andrew Sykes]

I had a look at mxgraph, very ambitious, although it didn't seem to work
too well...

I think the tool could be somewhat simpler than that!

- Andrew

On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 18:58 +0530, Ravish Kamath wrote:

> Andrew,
>
> Is this idea very similar to JGraph (http://www.jgraph.com/) ?
>
> cheers,
> ravish
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Sykes [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 4:32 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: bpel and bpmn
>
>
> David,
>
> Sounds cool, I've often thought that minilang lends itself to an
> additional layer of abstraction like this.
>
> So all we need to do now is to write a "Dreamweaver" for minilang - I'll
> do it this evening! ;-)
>
> Joking aside, it would be interesting to hear David (Jones) thoughts on
> whether such a thing was possible. It's certainly not easy!
>
>
> On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 11:54 +0200, David Welton wrote:
> > I saw some guy talking about BPEL and BPMN at the Java conference
> > yesterday in Milan.  There was a thick layer of marketing slop on the
> > presentation, but the idea at heart seems interesting - let people do
> > high level processes in a flow-chart like notation that can be boiled
> > down to something that eventually executes.
> >
> > What do you guys think?
> >

--
Kind Regards
Andrew Sykes <[hidden email]>
Sykes Development Ltd
http://www.sykesdevelopment.com

[Jacques Le Roux]

I'm not a zealot of UML and I'm not using it for the moment. But I think it's a
good way to ease understanding between people, even not techies.

In fact, Neogia http://www.nereide.biz/ is build this way partially. They write
UML graphs with Poseidon http://gentleware.com/index.php and they use a
technology  that they created with Code Lutin http://www.codelutin.com/ to
generate files (every types ASA there is generator to do it). They wrote enough
generators to ease 70% of the work on Neogia side (Neogia is using OFBiz) they
claim.

Jacques

> Parkinson's law, though is about work expanding to meet the resources.
> a lesser known one is the way to win an argument is to speak in an area
> that the others can not comprehend so they will not show their ignorance
> by speaking against it.
>
> Most of these modeling proposition, are the same, unless you are a
> zealot about it.
>
> which boils down to good luck.
> LOL.
>
> David Welton sent the following on 6/29/2006 4:18 AM:
> >> I believe that was the Idea behind UML (unified Modeling Language)
> >> http://www.omg.org/technology/documents/formal/uml.htm
> >> It really never got accepted. .
> >
> > I think this aims to be much more specific than UML, which is used for
> > all kinds of things.  It describes services, and how they interact,
> > rather than database tables or objects, or other low level things of
> > that nature.  Perhaps it has a shot at working if it doesn't try to be
> > everything to everyone.
> >
> > Some healthy skepticism is in order, but the idea is interesting.  I
> > would love to offload the design of these processes to my boss, and
> > let a computer worry about translating them into something runnable
> > (rather than sitting down and doing it myself:-).  But perhaps that's
> > just a dream, and in reality the system doesn't work out that well, or
> > requires an army of people to implement.
> >
> > Anyway, just sort of curious what others thought.
> >

[BJ Freeman]

I guess i am a zealot. Just trying not to show it. LOL
from http://www.uml.org/
The Unified Modeling Language™ - UML - is OMG's most-used specification,
and the way the world models not only application structure, behavior,
and architecture, but also business process and data structure.
I use eclipse
http://www.visual-paradigm.com/product/sde/ec/productinfosdeceec.jsp


Jacques Le Roux sent the following on 6/29/2006 1:08 PM:

> I'm not a zealot of UML and I'm not using it for the moment. But I think it's a
> good way to ease understanding between people, even not techies.
>
> In fact, Neogia http://www.nereide.biz/ is build this way partially. They write
> UML graphs with Poseidon http://gentleware.com/index.php and they use a
> technology  that they created with Code Lutin http://www.codelutin.com/ to
> generate files (every types ASA there is generator to do it). They wrote enough
> generators to ease 70% of the work on Neogia side (Neogia is using OFBiz) they
> claim.
>
> Jacques
>
>> Parkinson's law, though is about work expanding to meet the resources.
>> a lesser known one is the way to win an argument is to speak in an area
>> that the others can not comprehend so they will not show their ignorance
>> by speaking against it.
>>
>> Most of these modeling proposition, are the same, unless you are a
>> zealot about it.
>>
>> which boils down to good luck.
>> LOL.
>>
>> David Welton sent the following on 6/29/2006 4:18 AM:
>>>> I believe that was the Idea behind UML (unified Modeling Language)
>>>> http://www.omg.org/technology/documents/formal/uml.htm
>>>> It really never got accepted. .
>>> I think this aims to be much more specific than UML, which is used for
>>> all kinds of things.  It describes services, and how they interact,
>>> rather than database tables or objects, or other low level things of
>>> that nature.  Perhaps it has a shot at working if it doesn't try to be
>>> everything to everyone.
>>>
>>> Some healthy skepticism is in order, but the idea is interesting.  I
>>> would love to offload the design of these processes to my boss, and
>>> let a computer worry about translating them into something runnable
>>> (rather than sitting down and doing it myself:-).  But perhaps that's
>>> just a dream, and in reality the system doesn't work out that well, or
>>> requires an army of people to implement.
>>>
>>> Anyway, just sort of curious what others thought.
>>>
>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

From: "BJ Freeman" <[hidden email]>

> I guess i am a zealot. Just trying not to show it. LOL
> from http://www.uml.org/
> The Unified Modeling Language™ - UML - is OMG's most-used specification,
> and the way the world models not only application structure, behavior,
> and architecture, but also business process and data structure.
> I use eclipse
> http://www.visual-paradigm.com/product/sde/ec/productinfosdeceec.jsp

Thanks for the link BJ

Jacques

>
> Jacques Le Roux sent the following on 6/29/2006 1:08 PM:
> > I'm not a zealot of UML and I'm not using it for the moment. But I think
it's a
> > good way to ease understanding between people, even not techies.
> >
> > In fact, Neogia http://www.nereide.biz/ is build this way partially. They
write
> > UML graphs with Poseidon http://gentleware.com/index.php and they use a
> > technology  that they created with Code Lutin http://www.codelutin.com/ to
> > generate files (every types ASA there is generator to do it). They wrote
enough
> > generators to ease 70% of the work on Neogia side (Neogia is using OFBiz)
they

> > claim.
> >
> > Jacques
> >
> >> Parkinson's law, though is about work expanding to meet the resources.
> >> a lesser known one is the way to win an argument is to speak in an area
> >> that the others can not comprehend so they will not show their ignorance
> >> by speaking against it.
> >>
> >> Most of these modeling proposition, are the same, unless you are a
> >> zealot about it.
> >>
> >> which boils down to good luck.
> >> LOL.
> >>
> >> David Welton sent the following on 6/29/2006 4:18 AM:
> >>>> I believe that was the Idea behind UML (unified Modeling Language)
> >>>> http://www.omg.org/technology/documents/formal/uml.htm
> >>>> It really never got accepted. .
> >>> I think this aims to be much more specific than UML, which is used for
> >>> all kinds of things.  It describes services, and how they interact,
> >>> rather than database tables or objects, or other low level things of
> >>> that nature.  Perhaps it has a shot at working if it doesn't try to be
> >>> everything to everyone.
> >>>
> >>> Some healthy skepticism is in order, but the idea is interesting.  I
> >>> would love to offload the design of these processes to my boss, and
> >>> let a computer worry about translating them into something runnable
> >>> (rather than sitting down and doing it myself:-).  But perhaps that's
> >>> just a dream, and in reality the system doesn't work out that well, or
> >>> requires an army of people to implement.
> >>>
> >>> Anyway, just sort of curious what others thought.
> >>>
> >
> >

[Jacques Le Roux]

From: "Jacques Le Roux" <[hidden email]>

>
> From: "BJ Freeman" <[hidden email]>
>
> > I guess i am a zealot. Just trying not to show it. LOL
> > from http://www.uml.org/
> > The Unified Modeling Language™ - UML - is OMG's most-used specification,
> > and the way the world models not only application structure, behavior,
> > and architecture, but also business process and data structure.
> > I use eclipse
> > http://www.visual-paradigm.com/product/sde/ec/productinfosdeceec.jsp
>
> Thanks for the link BJ
>
> Jacques

Wooowww it's huge ! (92Mo) I think I will keep Poseidon...

> >
> > Jacques Le Roux sent the following on 6/29/2006 1:08 PM:
> > > I'm not a zealot of UML and I'm not using it for the moment. But I think
> it's a
> > > good way to ease understanding between people, even not techies.
> > >
> > > In fact, Neogia http://www.nereide.biz/ is build this way partially. They
> write
> > > UML graphs with Poseidon http://gentleware.com/index.php and they use a
> > > technology  that they created with Code Lutin http://www.codelutin.com/ to
> > > generate files (every types ASA there is generator to do it). They wrote
> enough
> > > generators to ease 70% of the work on Neogia side (Neogia is using OFBiz)
> they
> > > claim.
> > >
> > > Jacques
> > >
> > >> Parkinson's law, though is about work expanding to meet the resources.
> > >> a lesser known one is the way to win an argument is to speak in an area
> > >> that the others can not comprehend so they will not show their ignorance
> > >> by speaking against it.
> > >>
> > >> Most of these modeling proposition, are the same, unless you are a
> > >> zealot about it.
> > >>
> > >> which boils down to good luck.
> > >> LOL.
> > >>
> > >> David Welton sent the following on 6/29/2006 4:18 AM:
> > >>>> I believe that was the Idea behind UML (unified Modeling Language)
> > >>>> http://www.omg.org/technology/documents/formal/uml.htm
> > >>>> It really never got accepted. .
> > >>> I think this aims to be much more specific than UML, which is used for
> > >>> all kinds of things.  It describes services, and how they interact,
> > >>> rather than database tables or objects, or other low level things of
> > >>> that nature.  Perhaps it has a shot at working if it doesn't try to be
> > >>> everything to everyone.
> > >>>
> > >>> Some healthy skepticism is in order, but the idea is interesting.  I
> > >>> would love to offload the design of these processes to my boss, and
> > >>> let a computer worry about translating them into something runnable
> > >>> (rather than sitting down and doing it myself:-).  But perhaps that's
> > >>> just a dream, and in reality the system doesn't work out that well, or
> > >>> requires an army of people to implement.
> > >>>
> > >>> Anyway, just sort of curious what others thought.
> > >>>
> > >
> > >

[BJ Freeman]

yes. requires 512 memory.to run in eclipse

Jacques Le Roux sent the following on 6/29/2006 3:27 PM:

> From: "Jacques Le Roux" <[hidden email]>
>
>
>> From: "BJ Freeman" <[hidden email]>
>>
>>> I guess i am a zealot. Just trying not to show it. LOL
>>> from http://www.uml.org/
>>> The Unified Modeling Language™ - UML - is OMG's most-used specification,
>>> and the way the world models not only application structure, behavior,
>>> and architecture, but also business process and data structure.
>>> I use eclipse
>>> http://www.visual-paradigm.com/product/sde/ec/productinfosdeceec.jsp
>> Thanks for the link BJ
>>
>> Jacques
>
> Wooowww it's huge ! (92Mo) I think I will keep Poseidon...
>
>
>>> Jacques Le Roux sent the following on 6/29/2006 1:08 PM:
>>>> I'm not a zealot of UML and I'm not using it for the moment. But I think
>> it's a
>>>> good way to ease understanding between people, even not techies.
>>>>
>>>> In fact, Neogia http://www.nereide.biz/ is build this way partially. They
>> write
>>>> UML graphs with Poseidon http://gentleware.com/index.php and they use a
>>>> technology  that they created with Code Lutin http://www.codelutin.com/ to
>>>> generate files (every types ASA there is generator to do it). They wrote
>> enough
>>>> generators to ease 70% of the work on Neogia side (Neogia is using OFBiz)
>> they
>>>> claim.
>>>>
>>>> Jacques
>>>>
>>>>> Parkinson's law, though is about work expanding to meet the resources.
>>>>> a lesser known one is the way to win an argument is to speak in an area
>>>>> that the others can not comprehend so they will not show their ignorance
>>>>> by speaking against it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most of these modeling proposition, are the same, unless you are a
>>>>> zealot about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> which boils down to good luck.
>>>>> LOL.
>>>>>
>>>>> David Welton sent the following on 6/29/2006 4:18 AM:
>>>>>>> I believe that was the Idea behind UML (unified Modeling Language)
>>>>>>> http://www.omg.org/technology/documents/formal/uml.htm
>>>>>>> It really never got accepted. .
>>>>>> I think this aims to be much more specific than UML, which is used for
>>>>>> all kinds of things.  It describes services, and how they interact,
>>>>>> rather than database tables or objects, or other low level things of
>>>>>> that nature.  Perhaps it has a shot at working if it doesn't try to be
>>>>>> everything to everyone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some healthy skepticism is in order, but the idea is interesting.  I
>>>>>> would love to offload the design of these processes to my boss, and
>>>>>> let a computer worry about translating them into something runnable
>>>>>> (rather than sitting down and doing it myself:-).  But perhaps that's
>>>>>> just a dream, and in reality the system doesn't work out that well, or
>>>>>> requires an army of people to implement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, just sort of curious what others thought.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>
>