how useful is the wiki? (and docbook integration)

[Chris Snow-3]

I was wondering how useful people find the ofbiz wiki.

It seems that there is a lot of very good information on the wiki, but
it just doesn't seem to be structured  (structure is precisely what new
users need, along with product stability).

I've been looking at the DocBookWiki project and although it has a long
way to go to be usable, it allows you to structure your wiki like you
would a book - see example on http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/books/.  
It also has links to generate different formats from your wiki including
docbook, html and pdf.

What is the license for the contents of the ofbiz wiki?  Would I be
allowed to use the content on the wiki and combine it into another format?

Many thanks,

Chris

[Jacques Le Roux]

Hi Chris,

I sincerely think it's not a tool problem but simply lack of community organisation.
Also, despite the lack of organisation, lot efforts have already been put in the wiki and moving to another support, DocBookWiki or
whatever, will need to be very carefully done!
Last but not least, the commuity ambition, would be to use OFBiz itself to support its own wiki. Ambitious isn'it ?

Licence : Confluence is Atlassian property (as Jira which uses OFBiz Entity Engine internally, BTW), in other word it's a commercial
product. But like some other companies, Atlassian offers graciously some licences. I believe, the one we currently use was donated
to Undersun (the consulting company David and Andy created when the begin to work on OFBiz) and is now used on an HWM server. In the
meantime (before using OFBize itself) we should move to Apacher servers since Atlassian has also offered a licence to the ASF
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-1877. Confluence is already used by other major ASF projects : Geronimo, ServiceMix, to
list a few...

HTH

Jacques

From: "Christopher Snow" <[hidden email]>

>I was wondering how useful people find the ofbiz wiki.
>
> It seems that there is a lot of very good information on the wiki, but it just doesn't seem to be structured  (structure is
> precisely what new users need, along with product stability).
>
> I've been looking at the DocBookWiki project and although it has a long way to go to be usable, it allows you to structure your
> wiki like you would a book - see example on http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/books/.  It also has links to generate different
> formats from your wiki including docbook, html and pdf.
>
> What is the license for the contents of the ofbiz wiki?  Would I be allowed to use the content on the wiki and combine it into
> another format?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Chris
>
>

[Chris Snow-3]

Hi Jacques,

What I mean with the license was - what is the license regarding the
contributed content that users have uploaded to the wiki?  I was
wondering if I could use the content on the wiki for other purposes.

Many thanks,

Chris

Jacques Le Roux wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>
> I sincerely think it's not a tool problem but simply lack of community
> organisation.
> Also, despite the lack of organisation, lot efforts have already been
> put in the wiki and moving to another support, DocBookWiki or
> whatever, will need to be very carefully done!
> Last but not least, the commuity ambition, would be to use OFBiz
> itself to support its own wiki. Ambitious isn'it ?
>
> Licence : Confluence is Atlassian property (as Jira which uses OFBiz
> Entity Engine internally, BTW), in other word it's a commercial
> product. But like some other companies, Atlassian offers graciously
> some licences. I believe, the one we currently use was donated to
> Undersun (the consulting company David and Andy created when the begin
> to work on OFBiz) and is now used on an HWM server. In the meantime
> (before using OFBize itself) we should move to Apacher servers since
> Atlassian has also offered a licence to the ASF
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-1877. Confluence is
> already used by other major ASF projects : Geronimo, ServiceMix, to
> list a few...
>
> HTH
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Christopher Snow" <[hidden email]>
>> I was wondering how useful people find the ofbiz wiki.
>>
>> It seems that there is a lot of very good information on the wiki,
>> but it just doesn't seem to be structured  (structure is precisely
>> what new users need, along with product stability).
>>
>> I've been looking at the DocBookWiki project and although it has a
>> long way to go to be usable, it allows you to structure your wiki
>> like you would a book - see example on
>> http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/books/.  It also has links to
>> generate different formats from your wiki including docbook, html and
>> pdf.
>>
>> What is the license for the contents of the ofbiz wiki?  Would I be
>> allowed to use the content on the wiki and combine it into another
>> format?
>>
>> Many thanks,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>
>

--
Chris Snow - CEng MBCS CITP MBA (Tech Mgmt) (Open) CISSP

Tel: [phone]
Mob: [phone]
Www: www.snowconsulting.co.uk

[Jacques Le Roux]

From: "Chris Snow" <[hidden email]>
> Hi Jacques,
>
> What I mean with the license was - what is the license regarding the
> contributed content that users have uploaded to the wiki?  I was
> wondering if I could use the content on the wiki for other purposes.

Ah yes! For me (to be confirmed, because there are no licence headers there) like all in Apache OFBiz, it's ASL2 licenced.
In other words you can do what you want with it as long as you respect http://apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0#redistribution

My 2cts

Jacques
 

> Many thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> I sincerely think it's not a tool problem but simply lack of community
>> organisation.
>> Also, despite the lack of organisation, lot efforts have already been
>> put in the wiki and moving to another support, DocBookWiki or
>> whatever, will need to be very carefully done!
>> Last but not least, the commuity ambition, would be to use OFBiz
>> itself to support its own wiki. Ambitious isn'it ?
>>
>> Licence : Confluence is Atlassian property (as Jira which uses OFBiz
>> Entity Engine internally, BTW), in other word it's a commercial
>> product. But like some other companies, Atlassian offers graciously
>> some licences. I believe, the one we currently use was donated to
>> Undersun (the consulting company David and Andy created when the begin
>> to work on OFBiz) and is now used on an HWM server. In the meantime
>> (before using OFBize itself) we should move to Apacher servers since
>> Atlassian has also offered a licence to the ASF
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-1877. Confluence is
>> already used by other major ASF projects : Geronimo, ServiceMix, to
>> list a few...
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>> From: "Christopher Snow" <[hidden email]>
>>> I was wondering how useful people find the ofbiz wiki.
>>>
>>> It seems that there is a lot of very good information on the wiki,
>>> but it just doesn't seem to be structured  (structure is precisely
>>> what new users need, along with product stability).
>>>
>>> I've been looking at the DocBookWiki project and although it has a
>>> long way to go to be usable, it allows you to structure your wiki
>>> like you would a book - see example on
>>> http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/books/.  It also has links to
>>> generate different formats from your wiki including docbook, html and
>>> pdf.
>>>
>>> What is the license for the contents of the ofbiz wiki?  Would I be
>>> allowed to use the content on the wiki and combine it into another
>>> format?
>>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Chris Snow - CEng MBCS CITP MBA (Tech Mgmt) (Open) CISSP
>
> Tel: [phone]
> Mob: [phone]
> Www: www.snowconsulting.co.uk
>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi Jacques:
I think it is a tool problem. I've come to believe, after 25+ years of
struggling with the best way to convey complex, multi-dimensional ideas
and concepts, that the "Wiki" format for documentation presentation is
just about useless for most users - especially new users.  The problem,
as I see it is that a Wiki has only one dimension - even the most
carefully crafted Wiki has but one dimension - that of the Wiki itself.
A project such as OFBiz has many dimensions, is constantly changing and
has many target audiences.

Wikis seem to work best as repositories for small snippets of
information. Kind-of like a bunch of sticky notes positioned around the
office. The problem is that unless you were the author and depositor of
those sticky notes, others will only randomly happen upon them. Even
under the best search and organizational conditions, finding the right
set of sticky notes for the task at hand can be a real challenge.

My solution has been to fall back on writing traditional documentation
organized and targeted at specific audiences. I don't know if the
DocBookWiki would provide a framework for building more traditional (and
I would argue useful) information sources as I haven't looked at it. But
now that you have given me the idea, I am going to take a look.

Thanks Chris.
Just my 2 cents :-)
Ruth


Jacques Le Roux wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>
> I sincerely think it's not a tool problem but simply lack of community
> organisation.
> Also, despite the lack of organisation, lot efforts have already been
> put in the wiki and moving to another support, DocBookWiki or
> whatever, will need to be very carefully done!
> Last but not least, the commuity ambition, would be to use OFBiz
> itself to support its own wiki. Ambitious isn'it ?
>
> Licence : Confluence is Atlassian property (as Jira which uses OFBiz
> Entity Engine internally, BTW), in other word it's a commercial
> product. But like some other companies, Atlassian offers graciously
> some licences. I believe, the one we currently use was donated to
> Undersun (the consulting company David and Andy created when the begin
> to work on OFBiz) and is now used on an HWM server. In the meantime
> (before using OFBize itself) we should move to Apacher servers since
> Atlassian has also offered a licence to the ASF
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-1877. Confluence is
> already used by other major ASF projects : Geronimo, ServiceMix, to
> list a few...
>
> HTH
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Christopher Snow" <[hidden email]>
>> I was wondering how useful people find the ofbiz wiki.
>>
>> It seems that there is a lot of very good information on the wiki,
>> but it just doesn't seem to be structured  (structure is precisely
>> what new users need, along with product stability).
>>
>> I've been looking at the DocBookWiki project and although it has a
>> long way to go to be usable, it allows you to structure your wiki
>> like you would a book - see example on
>> http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/books/.  It also has links to
>> generate different formats from your wiki including docbook, html and
>> pdf.
>>
>> What is the license for the contents of the ofbiz wiki?  Would I be
>> allowed to use the content on the wiki and combine it into another
>> format?
>>
>> Many thanks,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Chris Snow-3]

Ruth is right!  Books are the way forward especially for new users.  New
users need a structured path through learning new concepts (along with a
stable product to learn).  Wiki's tend to be too chaotic and unstable!



Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi Jacques:
> I think it is a tool problem. I've come to believe, after 25+ years of
> struggling with the best way to convey complex, multi-dimensional
> ideas and concepts, that the "Wiki" format for documentation
> presentation is just about useless for most users - especially new
> users.  The problem, as I see it is that a Wiki has only one dimension
> - even the most carefully crafted Wiki has but one dimension - that of
> the Wiki itself. A project such as OFBiz has many dimensions, is
> constantly changing and has many target audiences.
>
> Wikis seem to work best as repositories for small snippets of
> information. Kind-of like a bunch of sticky notes positioned around
> the office. The problem is that unless you were the author and
> depositor of those sticky notes, others will only randomly happen upon
> them. Even under the best search and organizational conditions,
> finding the right set of sticky notes for the task at hand can be a
> real challenge.
>
> My solution has been to fall back on writing traditional documentation
> organized and targeted at specific audiences. I don't know if the
> DocBookWiki would provide a framework for building more traditional
> (and I would argue useful) information sources as I haven't looked at
> it. But now that you have given me the idea, I am going to take a look.
>
> Thanks Chris.
> Just my 2 cents :-)
> Ruth
>
>
> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> I sincerely think it's not a tool problem but simply lack of
>> community organisation.
>> Also, despite the lack of organisation, lot efforts have already been
>> put in the wiki and moving to another support, DocBookWiki or
>> whatever, will need to be very carefully done!
>> Last but not least, the commuity ambition, would be to use OFBiz
>> itself to support its own wiki. Ambitious isn'it ?
>>
>> Licence : Confluence is Atlassian property (as Jira which uses OFBiz
>> Entity Engine internally, BTW), in other word it's a commercial
>> product. But like some other companies, Atlassian offers graciously
>> some licences. I believe, the one we currently use was donated to
>> Undersun (the consulting company David and Andy created when the
>> begin to work on OFBiz) and is now used on an HWM server. In the
>> meantime (before using OFBize itself) we should move to Apacher
>> servers since Atlassian has also offered a licence to the ASF
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-1877. Confluence is
>> already used by other major ASF projects : Geronimo, ServiceMix, to
>> list a few...
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>> From: "Christopher Snow" <[hidden email]>
>>> I was wondering how useful people find the ofbiz wiki.
>>>
>>> It seems that there is a lot of very good information on the wiki,
>>> but it just doesn't seem to be structured  (structure is precisely
>>> what new users need, along with product stability).
>>>
>>> I've been looking at the DocBookWiki project and although it has a
>>> long way to go to be usable, it allows you to structure your wiki
>>> like you would a book - see example on
>>> http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/books/.  It also has links to
>>> generate different formats from your wiki including docbook, html
>>> and pdf.
>>>
>>> What is the license for the contents of the ofbiz wiki?  Would I be
>>> allowed to use the content on the wiki and combine it into another
>>> format?
>>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

--
Chris Snow - CEng MBCS CITP MBA (Tech Mgmt) (Open) CISSP

Tel: [phone]
Mob: [phone]
Www: www.snowconsulting.co.uk

[Jacques Le Roux]

Hi Ruth,

We could also organize things the same way than in a book in Confluence.
It has all we need for that, but as long as we don't coordinate our work any kind of tool will not be useful regarding this issue
I still think it's an organisation problem. But how to organize the work of a free community is another question that any authoring
tool will not resolve intrinsically.
Also, I remember one of the things that made the community considers Confluence a good tool for our use was the possibility it
offers with permissions.

As I already said these projects use also Confluence (on Apache infrastructure)
http://servicemix.apache.org/home.html
http://geronimo.apache.org/

As you can see, there are a "bit more" organised than our Wiki. For instance, only the left part allows to embrace the project at a
glance. Something we definitively lack at http://docs.ofbiz.org/dashboard.action
I think we can do as good if we decide to do it. For the most part, this does not depend of the tool, or even the kind of tool you
use, it depends of the women/men who use them.
I don't know if it's a lack of community maturity or an inclination of our community, or more certainmy a trivial lack of
ressources, ie manpower... (Geronimo and ServiceMix have both big supporters...)

Jacques

From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>

> Hi Jacques:
> I think it is a tool problem. I've come to believe, after 25+ years of struggling with the best way to convey complex,
> multi-dimensional ideas and concepts, that the "Wiki" format for documentation presentation is just about useless for most users -
> especially new users.  The problem, as I see it is that a Wiki has only one dimension - even the most carefully crafted Wiki has
> but one dimension - that of the Wiki itself. A project such as OFBiz has many dimensions, is constantly changing and has many
> target audiences.
>
> Wikis seem to work best as repositories for small snippets of information. Kind-of like a bunch of sticky notes positioned around
> the office. The problem is that unless you were the author and depositor of those sticky notes, others will only randomly happen
> upon them. Even under the best search and organizational conditions, finding the right set of sticky notes for the task at hand
> can be a real challenge.
>
> My solution has been to fall back on writing traditional documentation organized and targeted at specific audiences. I don't know
> if the DocBookWiki would provide a framework for building more traditional (and I would argue useful) information sources as I
> haven't looked at it. But now that you have given me the idea, I am going to take a look.
>
> Thanks Chris.
> Just my 2 cents :-)
> Ruth
>
>
> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> I sincerely think it's not a tool problem but simply lack of community organisation.
>> Also, despite the lack of organisation, lot efforts have already been put in the wiki and moving to another support, DocBookWiki
>> or whatever, will need to be very carefully done!
>> Last but not least, the commuity ambition, would be to use OFBiz itself to support its own wiki. Ambitious isn'it ?
>>
>> Licence : Confluence is Atlassian property (as Jira which uses OFBiz Entity Engine internally, BTW), in other word it's a
>> commercial product. But like some other companies, Atlassian offers graciously some licences. I believe, the one we currently use
>> was donated to Undersun (the consulting company David and Andy created when the begin to work on OFBiz) and is now used on an HWM
>> server. In the meantime (before using OFBize itself) we should move to Apacher servers since Atlassian has also offered a licence
>> to the ASF https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-1877. Confluence is already used by other major ASF projects : Geronimo,
>> ServiceMix, to list a few...
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>> From: "Christopher Snow" <[hidden email]>
>>> I was wondering how useful people find the ofbiz wiki.
>>>
>>> It seems that there is a lot of very good information on the wiki, but it just doesn't seem to be structured  (structure is
>>> precisely what new users need, along with product stability).
>>>
>>> I've been looking at the DocBookWiki project and although it has a long way to go to be usable, it allows you to structure your
>>> wiki like you would a book - see example on http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/books/.  It also has links to generate different
>>> formats from your wiki including docbook, html and pdf.
>>>
>>> What is the license for the contents of the ofbiz wiki?  Would I be allowed to use the content on the wiki and combine it into
>>> another format?
>>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

[Scott Gray-2]

I agree with Jacques, it is not a tool issue (or at least not  
primarily).  The reality is that very few people spend any time long  
term working on OFBiz documentation and the result is that the wiki  
ends up being a bit of dumping ground for information.  Unless there  
is a tool that magically edits and organizes information into well  
structured documentation I doubt much would change regardless of what  
tool we use.

Regards
Scott

HotWax Media
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com

On 30/10/2009, at 6:43 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:

> Hi Ruth,
>
> We could also organize things the same way than in a book in  
> Confluence.
> It has all we need for that, but as long as we don't coordinate our  
> work any kind of tool will not be useful regarding this issue
> I still think it's an organisation problem. But how to organize the  
> work of a free community is another question that any authoring tool  
> will not resolve intrinsically.
> Also, I remember one of the things that made the community considers  
> Confluence a good tool for our use was the possibility it offers  
> with permissions.
>
> As I already said these projects use also Confluence (on Apache  
> infrastructure)
> http://servicemix.apache.org/home.html
> http://geronimo.apache.org/
>
> As you can see, there are a "bit more" organised than our Wiki. For  
> instance, only the left part allows to embrace the project at a  
> glance. Something we definitively lack at http://docs.ofbiz.org/dashboard.action
> I think we can do as good if we decide to do it. For the most part,  
> this does not depend of the tool, or even the kind of tool you use,  
> it depends of the women/men who use them.
> I don't know if it's a lack of community maturity or an inclination  
> of our community, or more certainmy a trivial lack of ressources, ie  
> manpower... (Geronimo and ServiceMix have both big supporters...)
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>
>> Hi Jacques:
>> I think it is a tool problem. I've come to believe, after 25+ years  
>> of struggling with the best way to convey complex, multi-
>> dimensional ideas and concepts, that the "Wiki" format for  
>> documentation presentation is just about useless for most users -  
>> especially new users.  The problem, as I see it is that a Wiki has  
>> only one dimension - even the most carefully crafted Wiki has but  
>> one dimension - that of the Wiki itself. A project such as OFBiz  
>> has many dimensions, is constantly changing and has many target  
>> audiences.
>>
>> Wikis seem to work best as repositories for small snippets of  
>> information. Kind-of like a bunch of sticky notes positioned around  
>> the office. The problem is that unless you were the author and  
>> depositor of those sticky notes, others will only randomly happen  
>> upon them. Even under the best search and organizational  
>> conditions, finding the right set of sticky notes for the task at  
>> hand can be a real challenge.
>>
>> My solution has been to fall back on writing traditional  
>> documentation organized and targeted at specific audiences. I don't  
>> know if the DocBookWiki would provide a framework for building more  
>> traditional (and I would argue useful) information sources as I  
>> haven't looked at it. But now that you have given me the idea, I am  
>> going to take a look.
>>
>> Thanks Chris.
>> Just my 2 cents :-)
>> Ruth
>>
>>
>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> Hi Chris,
>>>
>>> I sincerely think it's not a tool problem but simply lack of  
>>> community organisation.
>>> Also, despite the lack of organisation, lot efforts have already  
>>> been put in the wiki and moving to another support, DocBookWiki or  
>>> whatever, will need to be very carefully done!
>>> Last but not least, the commuity ambition, would be to use OFBiz  
>>> itself to support its own wiki. Ambitious isn'it ?
>>>
>>> Licence : Confluence is Atlassian property (as Jira which uses  
>>> OFBiz Entity Engine internally, BTW), in other word it's a  
>>> commercial product. But like some other companies, Atlassian  
>>> offers graciously some licences. I believe, the one we currently  
>>> use was donated to Undersun (the consulting company David and Andy  
>>> created when the begin to work on OFBiz) and is now used on an HWM  
>>> server. In the meantime (before using OFBize itself) we should  
>>> move to Apacher servers since Atlassian has also offered a licence  
>>> to the ASF https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-1877.  
>>> Confluence is already used by other major ASF projects : Geronimo,  
>>> ServiceMix, to list a few...
>>>
>>> HTH
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>>> From: "Christopher Snow" <[hidden email]>
>>>> I was wondering how useful people find the ofbiz wiki.
>>>>
>>>> It seems that there is a lot of very good information on the  
>>>> wiki, but it just doesn't seem to be structured  (structure is  
>>>> precisely what new users need, along with product stability).
>>>>
>>>> I've been looking at the DocBookWiki project and although it has  
>>>> a long way to go to be usable, it allows you to structure your  
>>>> wiki like you would a book - see example on http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/books/ 
>>>> .  It also has links to generate different formats from your wiki  
>>>> including docbook, html and pdf.
>>>>
>>>> What is the license for the contents of the ofbiz wiki?  Would I  
>>>> be allowed to use the content on the wiki and combine it into  
>>>> another format?
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi Scott:
IMO, the reality is that the very same people who make excellent
software developers do not or cannot write. As you may know, good
writing is not about "dumping" words into a Wiki. Good writing is a
skill, developed over many hours (dare I say years) of work. Writing
involves much more than putting words to paper. Organization, structure,
editing and re-editing, layout and finally publication are some of the
many components of a well written document.

The Wiki concept brings out the lazy writer in all of us. True, it is
well suited to the "community" software development process. No one in
the community is required to document anything. Worse yet, Wiki entries
no matter how incomprehensible, contradictory or confusing may be
written with impunity. [Try doing that with software commits.]

My point: Anyone who has built a house (and I've done lots of home
rehabs) knows that the tools "make the man" - or in my case, the woman.

Regards,
Ruth

Scott Gray wrote:

> I agree with Jacques, it is not a tool issue (or at least not
> primarily).  The reality is that very few people spend any time long
> term working on OFBiz documentation and the result is that the wiki
> ends up being a bit of dumping ground for information.  Unless there
> is a tool that magically edits and organizes information into well
> structured documentation I doubt much would change regardless of what
> tool we use.
>
> Regards
> Scott
>
> HotWax Media
> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>
> On 30/10/2009, at 6:43 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>
>> Hi Ruth,
>>
>> We could also organize things the same way than in a book in Confluence.
>> It has all we need for that, but as long as we don't coordinate our
>> work any kind of tool will not be useful regarding this issue
>> I still think it's an organisation problem. But how to organize the
>> work of a free community is another question that any authoring tool
>> will not resolve intrinsically.
>> Also, I remember one of the things that made the community considers
>> Confluence a good tool for our use was the possibility it offers with
>> permissions.
>>
>> As I already said these projects use also Confluence (on Apache
>> infrastructure)
>> http://servicemix.apache.org/home.html
>> http://geronimo.apache.org/
>>
>> As you can see, there are a "bit more" organised than our Wiki. For
>> instance, only the left part allows to embrace the project at a
>> glance. Something we definitively lack at
>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/dashboard.action
>> I think we can do as good if we decide to do it. For the most part,
>> this does not depend of the tool, or even the kind of tool you use,
>> it depends of the women/men who use them.
>> I don't know if it's a lack of community maturity or an inclination
>> of our community, or more certainmy a trivial lack of ressources, ie
>> manpower... (Geronimo and ServiceMix have both big supporters...)
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>> From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>
>>> Hi Jacques:
>>> I think it is a tool problem. I've come to believe, after 25+ years
>>> of struggling with the best way to convey complex, multi-dimensional
>>> ideas and concepts, that the "Wiki" format for documentation
>>> presentation is just about useless for most users - especially new
>>> users.  The problem, as I see it is that a Wiki has only one
>>> dimension - even the most carefully crafted Wiki has but one
>>> dimension - that of the Wiki itself. A project such as OFBiz has
>>> many dimensions, is constantly changing and has many target audiences.
>>>
>>> Wikis seem to work best as repositories for small snippets of
>>> information. Kind-of like a bunch of sticky notes positioned around
>>> the office. The problem is that unless you were the author and
>>> depositor of those sticky notes, others will only randomly happen
>>> upon them. Even under the best search and organizational conditions,
>>> finding the right set of sticky notes for the task at hand can be a
>>> real challenge.
>>>
>>> My solution has been to fall back on writing traditional
>>> documentation organized and targeted at specific audiences. I don't
>>> know if the DocBookWiki would provide a framework for building more
>>> traditional (and I would argue useful) information sources as I
>>> haven't looked at it. But now that you have given me the idea, I am
>>> going to take a look.
>>>
>>> Thanks Chris.
>>> Just my 2 cents :-)
>>> Ruth
>>>
>>>
>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>
>>>> I sincerely think it's not a tool problem but simply lack of
>>>> community organisation.
>>>> Also, despite the lack of organisation, lot efforts have already
>>>> been put in the wiki and moving to another support, DocBookWiki or
>>>> whatever, will need to be very carefully done!
>>>> Last but not least, the commuity ambition, would be to use OFBiz
>>>> itself to support its own wiki. Ambitious isn'it ?
>>>>
>>>> Licence : Confluence is Atlassian property (as Jira which uses
>>>> OFBiz Entity Engine internally, BTW), in other word it's a
>>>> commercial product. But like some other companies, Atlassian offers
>>>> graciously some licences. I believe, the one we currently use was
>>>> donated to Undersun (the consulting company David and Andy created
>>>> when the begin to work on OFBiz) and is now used on an HWM server.
>>>> In the meantime (before using OFBize itself) we should move to
>>>> Apacher servers since Atlassian has also offered a licence to the
>>>> ASF https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-1877. Confluence is
>>>> already used by other major ASF projects : Geronimo, ServiceMix, to
>>>> list a few...
>>>>
>>>> HTH
>>>>
>>>> Jacques
>>>>
>>>> From: "Christopher Snow" <[hidden email]>
>>>>> I was wondering how useful people find the ofbiz wiki.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems that there is a lot of very good information on the wiki,
>>>>> but it just doesn't seem to be structured  (structure is precisely
>>>>> what new users need, along with product stability).
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been looking at the DocBookWiki project and although it has a
>>>>> long way to go to be usable, it allows you to structure your wiki
>>>>> like you would a book - see example on
>>>>> http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/books/.  It also has links to
>>>>> generate different formats from your wiki including docbook, html
>>>>> and pdf.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the license for the contents of the ofbiz wiki?  Would I
>>>>> be allowed to use the content on the wiki and combine it into
>>>>> another format?
>>>>>
>>>>> Many thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>

[John Griessen-2]

Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi Scott:
> IMO, the reality is that the very same people who make excellent
> software developers do not or cannot write. As you may know, good
> writing is not about "dumping" words into a Wiki. Good writing is a
> skill, developed over many hours (dare I say years) of work. Writing
> involves much more than putting words to paper. Organization, structure,
> editing and re-editing, layout and finally publication are some of the
> many components of a well written document.
>
> The Wiki concept brings out the lazy writer in all of us. True, it is
> well suited to the "community" software development process. No one in
> the community is required to document anything. Worse yet, Wiki entries
> no matter how incomprehensible, contradictory or confusing may be
> written with impunity. [Try doing that with software commits.]
>
> My point: Anyone who has built a house (and I've done lots of home
> rehabs) knows that the tools "make the man" - or in my case, the woman.
>
> Regards,
> Ruth
>

Have you read about the Django web publishing framework?  It was created for
newspaper reporters that write well.  I'm experimenting with installing it
for use along with OFBiz to create content + selling sites.  It might be a
"good tool" that would allow separate credit for everyone's writing easily.
Just having good templates and a way to have credit for your work might inspire more writing.

John Griessen

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi John:
No I have not. Thanks for the tip! Will look into that as well.
Regards,
Ruth

John Griessen wrote:

> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>> Hi Scott:
>> IMO, the reality is that the very same people who make excellent
>> software developers do not or cannot write. As you may know, good
>> writing is not about "dumping" words into a Wiki. Good writing is a
>> skill, developed over many hours (dare I say years) of work. Writing
>> involves much more than putting words to paper. Organization,
>> structure, editing and re-editing, layout and finally publication are
>> some of the many components of a well written document.
>>
>> The Wiki concept brings out the lazy writer in all of us. True, it is
>> well suited to the "community" software development process. No one
>> in the community is required to document anything. Worse yet, Wiki
>> entries no matter how incomprehensible, contradictory or confusing
>> may be written with impunity. [Try doing that with software commits.]
>>
>> My point: Anyone who has built a house (and I've done lots of home
>> rehabs) knows that the tools "make the man" - or in my case, the woman.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>>
>
> Have you read about the Django web publishing framework?  It was
> created for
> newspaper reporters that write well.  I'm experimenting with
> installing it
> for use along with OFBiz to create content + selling sites.  It might
> be a
> "good tool" that would allow separate credit for everyone's writing
> easily.
> Just having good templates and a way to have credit for your work
> might inspire more writing.
>
> John Griessen
>