release 4.0 vs release 09.04?

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi Tim:
I couldn't agree with you more:  "The fact this project has gotten this
far along without doing this is amazing and a testament to the tools
(and the people) that have been put in place..."

It is a testament to the David's (and his collaborator's) brilliance.
OFBiz's architecture, design an original implementation are still
unrivaled. I am a true believer :-)

Ruth

Tim Ruppert wrote:

> Being a test-first, test-driven community would still be the best way
> to avoid that.  Until we take a stance and reject everything that
> doesn't do this, then I guess I'd have to agree with David that the
> community must not care.  The fact this project has gotten this far
> along without doing this is amazing and a testament to the tools (and
> the people) that have been put in place being helpful enough to make
> it so these major flaws don't happen very often.
>
> I'm looking forward to that being a major shift in the way
> contributions and work is committed to the project - I think it would
> do worlds of good.
>
> Cheers,
> Ruppert
> --
> Tim Ruppert
> HotWax Media
> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>
> o:801.649.6594
> f:801.649.6595
>
> On Sep 24, 2009, at 11:46 AM, David E Jones wrote:
>
>>
>> It really is a bad sign. In a community driven project what this
>> means is that no one cares enough about it to do anything about it...
>> and I guess that's sad. Too much committing without testing, or even
>> running, things. Too much not caring about existing functionality and
>> creating new things that steamroll and break existing things. All in
>> all, the stuff I tried to guide away from when I wrote the stuff here
>> in the General Responsibilities of Committers:
>>
>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/OFBiz+Committers+Roles+and+Responsibilities 
>>
>>
>> Like I've said recently on another topic... if no one else cares what
>> can I do about it? I guess like everyone else I'll just keep doing my
>> own thing... and collaborate with others when I can, and when they'll
>> let me.
>>
>> -David
>>
>>
>> On Sep 24, 2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>> Hi David:
>>> Thanks for your comments. As usually, they are well thought out and
>>> invaluable in helping furthering the understanding of the OFBiz
>>> project. IMHO, project releases are a really important concern for
>>> new users. By new users, I mean new users of the many and varied
>>> applications that come with the OFBiz distribution. Maybe we could
>>> call these users new "end-users". I don't mean users intent on
>>> building new applications and/or modifying existing project files
>>> (i.e. Java code, CSS, HTML, Javascript, Groovy, XML  etc.). New
>>> users may get to a point where they feel compelled to modify project
>>> files...but I suggest we don't put the cart before the horse.
>>>
>>> Please see my comments below:
>>>
>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't say release4.0 or release09.04 have "been proven either
>>>> through formal release management practices or through actual
>>>> experience in the field." In fact, 4.0 was a much more arbitrary
>>>> cutoff point and not planned or acted on as much as 09.04.
>>>>
>>> OK, point well taken. Maybe I should have said "...through time in
>>> service..."? Regardless, the applications as they exist in the 4.x
>>> release work. Maybe the framework is not as advanced as the current
>>> trunk or 9.04 release, but the demo store works and the supporting
>>> applications work.
>>>
>>> Just out of curiosity, have there been any bugs reported after the
>>> 9.04 branch, that would make me believe that the Catalog Manager,
>>> Order Manager and eCommerce component are not stable and reliable in
>>> the 4.x release?
>>>> You mentioned issues in 09.04, could you be more specific?
>>>> Unfortunately I think many issues are related to the theme,
>>> Yes - themes seem to be problematic. And, since the very first
>>> encounter with OFBiz out-of-the-box is the presentation as rendered
>>> by the theme - I think there is a big issue here. In fact, IMHO this
>>> is what we use to call a "show stopper" and makes the release
>>> unstable. Doesn't matter how good the underlying product is, first
>>> impressions always count. Again, this is just my opinion.
>>>
>>> Back to themes: not only are themes problematic, I would point out
>>> the documentation concerning how to work around theme based issues
>>> with the flatgrey theme was vague and contradictory (as was
>>> discussed here on this mailing list.)
>>>> and pretty or not it really does cause problems and it's probably
>>>> better to use it with the old flatgrey theme. There could certainly
>>>> be other problems, but in general I'd say 09.04 is more solid and
>>>> certainly much more feature complete.
>>>>
>>> How about Jira #2602 - the very first thing you see when you start
>>> up the demo store is broken (in my book and in my browser). Sorry,
>>> but this does not bode well for the remainder of the demonstration
>>> and for a successful outcome should one be a new user testing the
>>> waters.
>>>> As far as "ad advertised" goes, I wasn't aware there was anything
>>>> advertised either way... ;)
>>> Exactly my point! Its all implied. And since we have nothing else to
>>> work with, older is better in this case.
>>>> One nice thing about 09.04 is that the business processes are much
>>>> more complete. In other words you can run through a business
>>>> process and not find the big functional gaps that exist in 4.0. A
>>>> LOT happened in the 2 years between the two releases, and probably
>>>> around 50 man-years of effort went into things.
>>> Actually, the devil is in the details. I'm not "dissing" 50
>>> man-years of work, but how many years of work went into the code
>>> base prior to the 9.x release? And how many implementations are
>>> there of 4.x code vs. trunk releases since the branch?
>>>> This really isn't a small difference. When doing gap analysis based
>>>> on a set of requirements I haven't seen any business looking for
>>>> anything, ever, where the feature set of 4.0 would hit even close
>>>> to the percentage of overlap that 09.04 does.
>>> That is good to know. Sounds like OFBiz is moving in the right
>>> direction.
>>>> Whatever the case, depending on the circumstances I'd still
>>>> recommend going with the trunk. For reasons we've discussed before
>>>> in many cases the trunk is actually more bug-free than any release
>>>> branch as long as you stay updated with it, of course with the
>>>> release branches you have to stay updated with them too if you want
>>>> bug fixes (ie that is the "patching" process for them and it's BAD
>>>> BAD BAD to not update when using the release branches).
>>>>
>>> I guess this is where we differ. I'd say a new user - out to kick
>>> the tires - is not interested in updating or reporting bugs. They
>>> just want to get started with a minimum of frustration and a maximum
>>> of success.
>>>> That said, the basic idea behind the releases and what to choose
>>>> still holds pretty true, and the release branches are definitely
>>>> more "stable" (meaning they don't change, not meaning more
>>>> bug-free, but it does help some with that), see the "How Do I
>>>> Decide What To Use" section here:
>>>>
>>>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/Apache+OFBiz+Getting+Started
>>>>
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 24, 2009, at 9:49 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Jacques:
>>>>> I understand and respect where both of you are coming from. But I
>>>>> think you need to consider that for new users (and this is only
>>>>> for new users), they should be guided towards using a stable,
>>>>> proven release. The 4.x release is the only release that is proven
>>>>> and works out-of-the-box as advertised.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your reference to beginner documentation aside (and, BTW, this is
>>>>> developer documentation not end-user documentation), I can't in
>>>>> good conscience suggest to anyone to use code that hasn't been
>>>>> proven either through formal release management practices or
>>>>> through actual experience in the field.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>> I totally agree with Ashish (not surprising) but Ruth is also
>>>>>> right to say that we have still some bugs in R9.04, but it's
>>>>>> improving day after day and have a lot more features and a better
>>>>>> architecture. For instance there is still issues with Minerva in
>>>>>> R4. And IMO, the main reason is you will not get much help (if
>>>>>> any) from the community with R4. We are almost all turned to the
>>>>>> future, not the past...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "Ashish Vijaywargiya" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> -1 for starting with OFBiz 4.0 release.
>>>>>>> Instead of this I will recommend to start with either Release
>>>>>>> branch  9.04 or trunk and report any bug found.
>>>>>>> The main reason of my recommendation is that the beginner
>>>>>>> document(http://docs.ofbiz.org/x/UBE) and some other document
>>>>>>> best support to Release Branch 9.04 & trunk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PS: "4.x trunk release" - Ruth, If I am not wrong "trunk" word
>>>>>>> is used for the repository on which current development is going
>>>>>>> on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Ashish Vijaywargiya
>>>>>>> HotWax Media Pvt. Ltd.
>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Helping hand around the World ...
>>>>>>> USA | Italy | India | New Zealand
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello Olindo:
>>>>>>>> IMHO - and not to ruffle any feathers - there are a number of
>>>>>>>> minor but very visible bugs (mostly in the presentation layer)
>>>>>>>> in the 9.04 release that could easily discourage and frustrate
>>>>>>>> a first time user. I found this out the hard way while trying
>>>>>>>> to use the 9.04 release as a basis for screen shots in my 2
>>>>>>>> books (and for the myofbiz.com website.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My advice for what it is worth: if you are a beginner, start
>>>>>>>> with the 4.x trunk release (it's rock solid and proven) and
>>>>>>>> then, when you understand how OFBiz should work, move on to
>>>>>>>> 9.04 if needed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again,
>>>>>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Olindo Pindaro wrote:
>>>>>>>>> What is the difference beetween this 2 branches?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TNX
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi David:

Well, I for one care or I wouldn't have spent much of my very valuable
summer writing two books about OFBiz. BTW, I intend to keep writing with
the goal of getting new users connected with OFBiz. My target audience
is new users and not necessarily project committers.

If the project can figure out how to control releases, all the better.
If not, then I stick to my guns. 4.x is still better than anything else
I've seen.

Ruth

David E Jones wrote:

>
> It really is a bad sign. In a community driven project what this means
> is that no one cares enough about it to do anything about it... and I
> guess that's sad. Too much committing without testing, or even
> running, things. Too much not caring about existing functionality and
> creating new things that steamroll and break existing things. All in
> all, the stuff I tried to guide away from when I wrote the stuff here
> in the General Responsibilities of Committers:
>
> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/OFBiz+Committers+Roles+and+Responsibilities 
>
>
> Like I've said recently on another topic... if no one else cares what
> can I do about it? I guess like everyone else I'll just keep doing my
> own thing... and collaborate with others when I can, and when they'll
> let me.
>
> -David
>
>
> On Sep 24, 2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>> Hi David:
>> Thanks for your comments. As usually, they are well thought out and
>> invaluable in helping furthering the understanding of the OFBiz
>> project. IMHO, project releases are a really important concern for
>> new users. By new users, I mean new users of the many and varied
>> applications that come with the OFBiz distribution. Maybe we could
>> call these users new "end-users". I don't mean users intent on
>> building new applications and/or modifying existing project files
>> (i.e. Java code, CSS, HTML, Javascript, Groovy, XML  etc.). New users
>> may get to a point where they feel compelled to modify project
>> files...but I suggest we don't put the cart before the horse.
>>
>> Please see my comments below:
>>
>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>
>>> I wouldn't say release4.0 or release09.04 have "been proven either
>>> through formal release management practices or through actual
>>> experience in the field." In fact, 4.0 was a much more arbitrary
>>> cutoff point and not planned or acted on as much as 09.04.
>>>
>> OK, point well taken. Maybe I should have said "...through time in
>> service..."? Regardless, the applications as they exist in the 4.x
>> release work. Maybe the framework is not as advanced as the current
>> trunk or 9.04 release, but the demo store works and the supporting
>> applications work.
>>
>> Just out of curiosity, have there been any bugs reported after the
>> 9.04 branch, that would make me believe that the Catalog Manager,
>> Order Manager and eCommerce component are not stable and reliable in
>> the 4.x release?
>>> You mentioned issues in 09.04, could you be more specific?
>>> Unfortunately I think many issues are related to the theme,
>> Yes - themes seem to be problematic. And, since the very first
>> encounter with OFBiz out-of-the-box is the presentation as rendered
>> by the theme - I think there is a big issue here. In fact, IMHO this
>> is what we use to call a "show stopper" and makes the release
>> unstable. Doesn't matter how good the underlying product is, first
>> impressions always count. Again, this is just my opinion.
>>
>> Back to themes: not only are themes problematic, I would point out
>> the documentation concerning how to work around theme based issues
>> with the flatgrey theme was vague and contradictory (as was discussed
>> here on this mailing list.)
>>> and pretty or not it really does cause problems and it's probably
>>> better to use it with the old flatgrey theme. There could certainly
>>> be other problems, but in general I'd say 09.04 is more solid and
>>> certainly much more feature complete.
>>>
>> How about Jira #2602 - the very first thing you see when you start up
>> the demo store is broken (in my book and in my browser). Sorry, but
>> this does not bode well for the remainder of the demonstration and
>> for a successful outcome should one be a new user testing the waters.
>>> As far as "ad advertised" goes, I wasn't aware there was anything
>>> advertised either way... ;)
>> Exactly my point! Its all implied. And since we have nothing else to
>> work with, older is better in this case.
>>> One nice thing about 09.04 is that the business processes are much
>>> more complete. In other words you can run through a business process
>>> and not find the big functional gaps that exist in 4.0. A LOT
>>> happened in the 2 years between the two releases, and probably
>>> around 50 man-years of effort went into things.
>> Actually, the devil is in the details. I'm not "dissing" 50 man-years
>> of work, but how many years of work went into the code base prior to
>> the 9.x release? And how many implementations are there of 4.x code
>> vs. trunk releases since the branch?
>>> This really isn't a small difference. When doing gap analysis based
>>> on a set of requirements I haven't seen any business looking for
>>> anything, ever, where the feature set of 4.0 would hit even close to
>>> the percentage of overlap that 09.04 does.
>> That is good to know. Sounds like OFBiz is moving in the right
>> direction.
>>> Whatever the case, depending on the circumstances I'd still
>>> recommend going with the trunk. For reasons we've discussed before
>>> in many cases the trunk is actually more bug-free than any release
>>> branch as long as you stay updated with it, of course with the
>>> release branches you have to stay updated with them too if you want
>>> bug fixes (ie that is the "patching" process for them and it's BAD
>>> BAD BAD to not update when using the release branches).
>>>
>> I guess this is where we differ. I'd say a new user - out to kick the
>> tires - is not interested in updating or reporting bugs. They just
>> want to get started with a minimum of frustration and a maximum of
>> success.
>>> That said, the basic idea behind the releases and what to choose
>>> still holds pretty true, and the release branches are definitely
>>> more "stable" (meaning they don't change, not meaning more bug-free,
>>> but it does help some with that), see the "How Do I Decide What To
>>> Use" section here:
>>>
>>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/Apache+OFBiz+Getting+Started
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 24, 2009, at 9:49 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jacques:
>>>> I understand and respect where both of you are coming from. But I
>>>> think you need to consider that for new users (and this is only for
>>>> new users), they should be guided towards using a stable, proven
>>>> release. The 4.x release is the only release that is proven and
>>>> works out-of-the-box as advertised.
>>>>
>>>> Your reference to beginner documentation aside (and, BTW, this is
>>>> developer documentation not end-user documentation), I can't in
>>>> good conscience suggest to anyone to use code that hasn't been
>>>> proven either through formal release management practices or
>>>> through actual experience in the field.
>>>>
>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>> I totally agree with Ashish (not surprising) but Ruth is also
>>>>> right to say that we have still some bugs in R9.04, but it's
>>>>> improving day after day and have a lot more features and a better
>>>>> architecture. For instance there is still issues with Minerva in
>>>>> R4. And IMO, the main reason is you will not get much help (if
>>>>> any) from the community with R4. We are almost all turned to the
>>>>> future, not the past...
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>
>>>>> From: "Ashish Vijaywargiya" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> -1 for starting with OFBiz 4.0 release.
>>>>>> Instead of this I will recommend to start with either Release
>>>>>> branch  9.04 or trunk and report any bug found.
>>>>>> The main reason of my recommendation is that the beginner
>>>>>> document(http://docs.ofbiz.org/x/UBE) and some other document
>>>>>> best support to Release Branch 9.04 & trunk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PS: "4.x trunk release" - Ruth, If I am not wrong "trunk" word is
>>>>>> used for the repository on which current development is going on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Ashish Vijaywargiya
>>>>>> HotWax Media Pvt. Ltd.
>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Helping hand around the World ...
>>>>>> USA | Italy | India | New Zealand
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello Olindo:
>>>>>>> IMHO - and not to ruffle any feathers - there are a number of
>>>>>>> minor but very visible bugs (mostly in the presentation layer)
>>>>>>> in the 9.04 release that could easily discourage and frustrate a
>>>>>>> first time user. I found this out the hard way while trying to
>>>>>>> use the 9.04 release as a basis for screen shots in my 2 books
>>>>>>> (and for the myofbiz.com website.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My advice for what it is worth: if you are a beginner, start
>>>>>>> with the 4.x trunk release (it's rock solid and proven) and
>>>>>>> then, when you understand how OFBiz should work, move on to 9.04
>>>>>>> if needed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again,
>>>>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Olindo Pindaro wrote:
>>>>>>>> What is the difference beetween this 2 branches?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TNX
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

[David E. Jones-2]

That's an interesting way of looking at it. What is your goal with  
those books, or what do you think they will cause to happen from a  
"big picture" perspective? What effect do you think they will have on  
OFBiz itself, especially since they document a version that is 2.5  
years old?

-David


On Sep 24, 2009, at 12:55 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi David:
>
> Well, I for one care or I wouldn't have spent much of my very  
> valuable summer writing two books about OFBiz. BTW, I intend to keep  
> writing with the goal of getting new users connected with OFBiz. My  
> target audience is new users and not necessarily project committers.
>
> If the project can figure out how to control releases, all the  
> better. If not, then I stick to my guns. 4.x is still better than  
> anything else I've seen.
>
> Ruth
>
> David E Jones wrote:
>>
>> It really is a bad sign. In a community driven project what this  
>> means is that no one cares enough about it to do anything about  
>> it... and I guess that's sad. Too much committing without testing,  
>> or even running, things. Too much not caring about existing  
>> functionality and creating new things that steamroll and break  
>> existing things. All in all, the stuff I tried to guide away from  
>> when I wrote the stuff here in the General Responsibilities of  
>> Committers:
>>
>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/OFBiz+Committers+Roles+and+Responsibilities
>>
>> Like I've said recently on another topic... if no one else cares  
>> what can I do about it? I guess like everyone else I'll just keep  
>> doing my own thing... and collaborate with others when I can, and  
>> when they'll let me.
>>
>> -David
>>
>>
>> On Sep 24, 2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>> Hi David:
>>> Thanks for your comments. As usually, they are well thought out  
>>> and invaluable in helping furthering the understanding of the  
>>> OFBiz project. IMHO, project releases are a really important  
>>> concern for new users. By new users, I mean new users of the many  
>>> and varied applications that come with the OFBiz distribution.  
>>> Maybe we could call these users new "end-users". I don't mean  
>>> users intent on building new applications and/or modifying  
>>> existing project files (i.e. Java code, CSS, HTML, Javascript,  
>>> Groovy, XML  etc.). New users may get to a point where they feel  
>>> compelled to modify project files...but I suggest we don't put the  
>>> cart before the horse.
>>>
>>> Please see my comments below:
>>>
>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't say release4.0 or release09.04 have "been proven  
>>>> either through formal release management practices or through  
>>>> actual experience in the field." In fact, 4.0 was a much more  
>>>> arbitrary cutoff point and not planned or acted on as much as  
>>>> 09.04.
>>>>
>>> OK, point well taken. Maybe I should have said "...through time in  
>>> service..."? Regardless, the applications as they exist in the 4.x  
>>> release work. Maybe the framework is not as advanced as the  
>>> current trunk or 9.04 release, but the demo store works and the  
>>> supporting applications work.
>>>
>>> Just out of curiosity, have there been any bugs reported after the  
>>> 9.04 branch, that would make me believe that the Catalog Manager,  
>>> Order Manager and eCommerce component are not stable and reliable  
>>> in the 4.x release?
>>>> You mentioned issues in 09.04, could you be more specific?  
>>>> Unfortunately I think many issues are related to the theme,
>>> Yes - themes seem to be problematic. And, since the very first  
>>> encounter with OFBiz out-of-the-box is the presentation as  
>>> rendered by the theme - I think there is a big issue here. In  
>>> fact, IMHO this is what we use to call a "show stopper" and makes  
>>> the release unstable. Doesn't matter how good the underlying  
>>> product is, first impressions always count. Again, this is just my  
>>> opinion.
>>>
>>> Back to themes: not only are themes problematic, I would point out  
>>> the documentation concerning how to work around theme based issues  
>>> with the flatgrey theme was vague and contradictory (as was  
>>> discussed here on this mailing list.)
>>>> and pretty or not it really does cause problems and it's probably  
>>>> better to use it with the old flatgrey theme. There could  
>>>> certainly be other problems, but in general I'd say 09.04 is more  
>>>> solid and certainly much more feature complete.
>>>>
>>> How about Jira #2602 - the very first thing you see when you start  
>>> up the demo store is broken (in my book and in my browser). Sorry,  
>>> but this does not bode well for the remainder of the demonstration  
>>> and for a successful outcome should one be a new user testing the  
>>> waters.
>>>> As far as "ad advertised" goes, I wasn't aware there was anything  
>>>> advertised either way... ;)
>>> Exactly my point! Its all implied. And since we have nothing else  
>>> to work with, older is better in this case.
>>>> One nice thing about 09.04 is that the business processes are  
>>>> much more complete. In other words you can run through a business  
>>>> process and not find the big functional gaps that exist in 4.0. A  
>>>> LOT happened in the 2 years between the two releases, and  
>>>> probably around 50 man-years of effort went into things.
>>> Actually, the devil is in the details. I'm not "dissing" 50 man-
>>> years of work, but how many years of work went into the code base  
>>> prior to the 9.x release? And how many implementations are there  
>>> of 4.x code vs. trunk releases since the branch?
>>>> This really isn't a small difference. When doing gap analysis  
>>>> based on a set of requirements I haven't seen any business  
>>>> looking for anything, ever, where the feature set of 4.0 would  
>>>> hit even close to the percentage of overlap that 09.04 does.
>>> That is good to know. Sounds like OFBiz is moving in the right  
>>> direction.
>>>> Whatever the case, depending on the circumstances I'd still  
>>>> recommend going with the trunk. For reasons we've discussed  
>>>> before in many cases the trunk is actually more bug-free than any  
>>>> release branch as long as you stay updated with it, of course  
>>>> with the release branches you have to stay updated with them too  
>>>> if you want bug fixes (ie that is the "patching" process for them  
>>>> and it's BAD BAD BAD to not update when using the release  
>>>> branches).
>>>>
>>> I guess this is where we differ. I'd say a new user - out to kick  
>>> the tires - is not interested in updating or reporting bugs. They  
>>> just want to get started with a minimum of frustration and a  
>>> maximum of success.
>>>> That said, the basic idea behind the releases and what to choose  
>>>> still holds pretty true, and the release branches are definitely  
>>>> more "stable" (meaning they don't change, not meaning more bug-
>>>> free, but it does help some with that), see the "How Do I Decide  
>>>> What To Use" section here:
>>>>
>>>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/Apache+OFBiz+Getting+Started
>>>>
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 24, 2009, at 9:49 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Jacques:
>>>>> I understand and respect where both of you are coming from. But  
>>>>> I think you need to consider that for new users (and this is  
>>>>> only for new users), they should be guided towards using a  
>>>>> stable, proven release. The 4.x release is the only release that  
>>>>> is proven and works out-of-the-box as advertised.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your reference to beginner documentation aside (and, BTW, this  
>>>>> is developer documentation not end-user documentation), I can't  
>>>>> in good conscience suggest to anyone to use code that hasn't  
>>>>> been proven either through formal release management practices  
>>>>> or through actual experience in the field.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>> I totally agree with Ashish (not surprising) but Ruth is also  
>>>>>> right to say that we have still some bugs in R9.04, but it's  
>>>>>> improving day after day and have a lot more features and a  
>>>>>> better architecture. For instance there is still issues with  
>>>>>> Minerva in R4. And IMO, the main reason is you will not get  
>>>>>> much help (if any) from the community with R4. We are almost  
>>>>>> all turned to the future, not the past...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "Ashish Vijaywargiya" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> -1 for starting with OFBiz 4.0 release.
>>>>>>> Instead of this I will recommend to start with either Release  
>>>>>>> branch  9.04 or trunk and report any bug found.
>>>>>>> The main reason of my recommendation is that the beginner  
>>>>>>> document(http://docs.ofbiz.org/x/UBE) and some other document  
>>>>>>> best support to Release Branch 9.04 & trunk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PS: "4.x trunk release" - Ruth, If I am not wrong "trunk" word  
>>>>>>> is used for the repository on which current development is  
>>>>>>> going on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Ashish Vijaywargiya
>>>>>>> HotWax Media Pvt. Ltd.
>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Helping hand around the World ...
>>>>>>> USA | Italy | India | New Zealand
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello Olindo:
>>>>>>>> IMHO - and not to ruffle any feathers - there are a number of  
>>>>>>>> minor but very visible bugs (mostly in the presentation  
>>>>>>>> layer) in the 9.04 release that could easily discourage and  
>>>>>>>> frustrate a first time user. I found this out the hard way  
>>>>>>>> while trying to use the 9.04 release as a basis for screen  
>>>>>>>> shots in my 2 books (and for the myofbiz.com website.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My advice for what it is worth: if you are a beginner, start  
>>>>>>>> with the 4.x trunk release (it's rock solid and proven) and  
>>>>>>>> then, when you understand how OFBiz should work, move on to  
>>>>>>>> 9.04 if needed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again,
>>>>>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Olindo Pindaro wrote:
>>>>>>>>> What is the difference beetween this 2 branches?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TNX
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi David:
What I meant to say (and yes I am guilty of not proofing my email before
hitting the send button):

"OFBiz 4.x is still better than any other enterprise application
framework, e-commerce, ERP or all of the above, out there."

I didn't mean to imply that 4.x is better than 9.04. Sorry for any hurt
feelings. I make no claims to know whether 4.x is "better" than 9.04,
only that I would recommend that new users look at 4.x first.

Regards,
Ruth

Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi David:
>
> Well, I for one care or I wouldn't have spent much of my very valuable
> summer writing two books about OFBiz. BTW, I intend to keep writing
> with the goal of getting new users connected with OFBiz. My target
> audience is new users and not necessarily project committers.
>
> If the project can figure out how to control releases, all the better.
> If not, then I stick to my guns. 4.x is still better than anything
> else I've seen.
>
> Ruth
>
> David E Jones wrote:
>>
>> It really is a bad sign. In a community driven project what this
>> means is that no one cares enough about it to do anything about it...
>> and I guess that's sad. Too much committing without testing, or even
>> running, things. Too much not caring about existing functionality and
>> creating new things that steamroll and break existing things. All in
>> all, the stuff I tried to guide away from when I wrote the stuff here
>> in the General Responsibilities of Committers:
>>
>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/OFBiz+Committers+Roles+and+Responsibilities 
>>
>>
>> Like I've said recently on another topic... if no one else cares what
>> can I do about it? I guess like everyone else I'll just keep doing my
>> own thing... and collaborate with others when I can, and when they'll
>> let me.
>>
>> -David
>>
>>
>> On Sep 24, 2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>> Hi David:
>>> Thanks for your comments. As usually, they are well thought out and
>>> invaluable in helping furthering the understanding of the OFBiz
>>> project. IMHO, project releases are a really important concern for
>>> new users. By new users, I mean new users of the many and varied
>>> applications that come with the OFBiz distribution. Maybe we could
>>> call these users new "end-users". I don't mean users intent on
>>> building new applications and/or modifying existing project files
>>> (i.e. Java code, CSS, HTML, Javascript, Groovy, XML  etc.). New
>>> users may get to a point where they feel compelled to modify project
>>> files...but I suggest we don't put the cart before the horse.
>>>
>>> Please see my comments below:
>>>
>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't say release4.0 or release09.04 have "been proven either
>>>> through formal release management practices or through actual
>>>> experience in the field." In fact, 4.0 was a much more arbitrary
>>>> cutoff point and not planned or acted on as much as 09.04.
>>>>
>>> OK, point well taken. Maybe I should have said "...through time in
>>> service..."? Regardless, the applications as they exist in the 4.x
>>> release work. Maybe the framework is not as advanced as the current
>>> trunk or 9.04 release, but the demo store works and the supporting
>>> applications work.
>>>
>>> Just out of curiosity, have there been any bugs reported after the
>>> 9.04 branch, that would make me believe that the Catalog Manager,
>>> Order Manager and eCommerce component are not stable and reliable in
>>> the 4.x release?
>>>> You mentioned issues in 09.04, could you be more specific?
>>>> Unfortunately I think many issues are related to the theme,
>>> Yes - themes seem to be problematic. And, since the very first
>>> encounter with OFBiz out-of-the-box is the presentation as rendered
>>> by the theme - I think there is a big issue here. In fact, IMHO this
>>> is what we use to call a "show stopper" and makes the release
>>> unstable. Doesn't matter how good the underlying product is, first
>>> impressions always count. Again, this is just my opinion.
>>>
>>> Back to themes: not only are themes problematic, I would point out
>>> the documentation concerning how to work around theme based issues
>>> with the flatgrey theme was vague and contradictory (as was
>>> discussed here on this mailing list.)
>>>> and pretty or not it really does cause problems and it's probably
>>>> better to use it with the old flatgrey theme. There could certainly
>>>> be other problems, but in general I'd say 09.04 is more solid and
>>>> certainly much more feature complete.
>>>>
>>> How about Jira #2602 - the very first thing you see when you start
>>> up the demo store is broken (in my book and in my browser). Sorry,
>>> but this does not bode well for the remainder of the demonstration
>>> and for a successful outcome should one be a new user testing the
>>> waters.
>>>> As far as "ad advertised" goes, I wasn't aware there was anything
>>>> advertised either way... ;)
>>> Exactly my point! Its all implied. And since we have nothing else to
>>> work with, older is better in this case.
>>>> One nice thing about 09.04 is that the business processes are much
>>>> more complete. In other words you can run through a business
>>>> process and not find the big functional gaps that exist in 4.0. A
>>>> LOT happened in the 2 years between the two releases, and probably
>>>> around 50 man-years of effort went into things.
>>> Actually, the devil is in the details. I'm not "dissing" 50
>>> man-years of work, but how many years of work went into the code
>>> base prior to the 9.x release? And how many implementations are
>>> there of 4.x code vs. trunk releases since the branch?
>>>> This really isn't a small difference. When doing gap analysis based
>>>> on a set of requirements I haven't seen any business looking for
>>>> anything, ever, where the feature set of 4.0 would hit even close
>>>> to the percentage of overlap that 09.04 does.
>>> That is good to know. Sounds like OFBiz is moving in the right
>>> direction.
>>>> Whatever the case, depending on the circumstances I'd still
>>>> recommend going with the trunk. For reasons we've discussed before
>>>> in many cases the trunk is actually more bug-free than any release
>>>> branch as long as you stay updated with it, of course with the
>>>> release branches you have to stay updated with them too if you want
>>>> bug fixes (ie that is the "patching" process for them and it's BAD
>>>> BAD BAD to not update when using the release branches).
>>>>
>>> I guess this is where we differ. I'd say a new user - out to kick
>>> the tires - is not interested in updating or reporting bugs. They
>>> just want to get started with a minimum of frustration and a maximum
>>> of success.
>>>> That said, the basic idea behind the releases and what to choose
>>>> still holds pretty true, and the release branches are definitely
>>>> more "stable" (meaning they don't change, not meaning more
>>>> bug-free, but it does help some with that), see the "How Do I
>>>> Decide What To Use" section here:
>>>>
>>>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/Apache+OFBiz+Getting+Started
>>>>
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 24, 2009, at 9:49 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Jacques:
>>>>> I understand and respect where both of you are coming from. But I
>>>>> think you need to consider that for new users (and this is only
>>>>> for new users), they should be guided towards using a stable,
>>>>> proven release. The 4.x release is the only release that is proven
>>>>> and works out-of-the-box as advertised.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your reference to beginner documentation aside (and, BTW, this is
>>>>> developer documentation not end-user documentation), I can't in
>>>>> good conscience suggest to anyone to use code that hasn't been
>>>>> proven either through formal release management practices or
>>>>> through actual experience in the field.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>> I totally agree with Ashish (not surprising) but Ruth is also
>>>>>> right to say that we have still some bugs in R9.04, but it's
>>>>>> improving day after day and have a lot more features and a better
>>>>>> architecture. For instance there is still issues with Minerva in
>>>>>> R4. And IMO, the main reason is you will not get much help (if
>>>>>> any) from the community with R4. We are almost all turned to the
>>>>>> future, not the past...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "Ashish Vijaywargiya" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> -1 for starting with OFBiz 4.0 release.
>>>>>>> Instead of this I will recommend to start with either Release
>>>>>>> branch  9.04 or trunk and report any bug found.
>>>>>>> The main reason of my recommendation is that the beginner
>>>>>>> document(http://docs.ofbiz.org/x/UBE) and some other document
>>>>>>> best support to Release Branch 9.04 & trunk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PS: "4.x trunk release" - Ruth, If I am not wrong "trunk" word
>>>>>>> is used for the repository on which current development is going
>>>>>>> on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Ashish Vijaywargiya
>>>>>>> HotWax Media Pvt. Ltd.
>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Helping hand around the World ...
>>>>>>> USA | Italy | India | New Zealand
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello Olindo:
>>>>>>>> IMHO - and not to ruffle any feathers - there are a number of
>>>>>>>> minor but very visible bugs (mostly in the presentation layer)
>>>>>>>> in the 9.04 release that could easily discourage and frustrate
>>>>>>>> a first time user. I found this out the hard way while trying
>>>>>>>> to use the 9.04 release as a basis for screen shots in my 2
>>>>>>>> books (and for the myofbiz.com website.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My advice for what it is worth: if you are a beginner, start
>>>>>>>> with the 4.x trunk release (it's rock solid and proven) and
>>>>>>>> then, when you understand how OFBiz should work, move on to
>>>>>>>> 9.04 if needed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again,
>>>>>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Olindo Pindaro wrote:
>>>>>>>>> What is the difference beetween this 2 branches?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TNX
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi David:
My goal is pretty simple: introduce the basic, end-user features and
functions of OFBiz e-commerce to new users. I picked e-commerce because:

    99% of the people out there know what "e-commerce" is and there is
    much interest in open source e-commerce solutions and

    OFBiz e-commerce features pretty much work out-of-the-box.


The "big picture"? well, I don't know. Let me save a response to this
for a rainy day when I'm not really busy finishing up some book related
work.

Actually, the "documentation" is really not about a version that is 2.5
years old. In fact, everything I talk about is in the latest trunk
release (or should I say, releases dating back to the early summer). I
think of the latest trunk release as an accumulation of features - most
of which have been around for over 2 years. With one exception that I
have brought to the project's attention, and which no one had a response
to - I might add - the elements that I discuss in the book are all still
working today as they did back then.

IMHO, you shouldn't discount the value of earlier versions of OFBiz.

Maybe we can talk further offline. I'm thinking this mailing list isn't
too interested in much of this stuff.

Regards,
Ruth
David E Jones wrote:

>
> That's an interesting way of looking at it. What is your goal with
> those books, or what do you think they will cause to happen from a
> "big picture" perspective? What effect do you think they will have on
> OFBiz itself, especially since they document a version that is 2.5
> years old?
>
> -David
>
>
> On Sep 24, 2009, at 12:55 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>> Hi David:
>>
>> Well, I for one care or I wouldn't have spent much of my very
>> valuable summer writing two books about OFBiz. BTW, I intend to keep
>> writing with the goal of getting new users connected with OFBiz. My
>> target audience is new users and not necessarily project committers.
>>
>> If the project can figure out how to control releases, all the
>> better. If not, then I stick to my guns. 4.x is still better than
>> anything else I've seen.
>>
>> Ruth
>>
>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>
>>> It really is a bad sign. In a community driven project what this
>>> means is that no one cares enough about it to do anything about
>>> it... and I guess that's sad. Too much committing without testing,
>>> or even running, things. Too much not caring about existing
>>> functionality and creating new things that steamroll and break
>>> existing things. All in all, the stuff I tried to guide away from
>>> when I wrote the stuff here in the General Responsibilities of
>>> Committers:
>>>
>>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/OFBiz+Committers+Roles+and+Responsibilities 
>>>
>>>
>>> Like I've said recently on another topic... if no one else cares
>>> what can I do about it? I guess like everyone else I'll just keep
>>> doing my own thing... and collaborate with others when I can, and
>>> when they'll let me.
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 24, 2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi David:
>>>> Thanks for your comments. As usually, they are well thought out and
>>>> invaluable in helping furthering the understanding of the OFBiz
>>>> project. IMHO, project releases are a really important concern for
>>>> new users. By new users, I mean new users of the many and varied
>>>> applications that come with the OFBiz distribution. Maybe we could
>>>> call these users new "end-users". I don't mean users intent on
>>>> building new applications and/or modifying existing project files
>>>> (i.e. Java code, CSS, HTML, Javascript, Groovy, XML  etc.). New
>>>> users may get to a point where they feel compelled to modify
>>>> project files...but I suggest we don't put the cart before the horse.
>>>>
>>>> Please see my comments below:
>>>>
>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I wouldn't say release4.0 or release09.04 have "been proven either
>>>>> through formal release management practices or through actual
>>>>> experience in the field." In fact, 4.0 was a much more arbitrary
>>>>> cutoff point and not planned or acted on as much as 09.04.
>>>>>
>>>> OK, point well taken. Maybe I should have said "...through time in
>>>> service..."? Regardless, the applications as they exist in the 4.x
>>>> release work. Maybe the framework is not as advanced as the current
>>>> trunk or 9.04 release, but the demo store works and the supporting
>>>> applications work.
>>>>
>>>> Just out of curiosity, have there been any bugs reported after the
>>>> 9.04 branch, that would make me believe that the Catalog Manager,
>>>> Order Manager and eCommerce component are not stable and reliable
>>>> in the 4.x release?
>>>>> You mentioned issues in 09.04, could you be more specific?
>>>>> Unfortunately I think many issues are related to the theme,
>>>> Yes - themes seem to be problematic. And, since the very first
>>>> encounter with OFBiz out-of-the-box is the presentation as rendered
>>>> by the theme - I think there is a big issue here. In fact, IMHO
>>>> this is what we use to call a "show stopper" and makes the release
>>>> unstable. Doesn't matter how good the underlying product is, first
>>>> impressions always count. Again, this is just my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> Back to themes: not only are themes problematic, I would point out
>>>> the documentation concerning how to work around theme based issues
>>>> with the flatgrey theme was vague and contradictory (as was
>>>> discussed here on this mailing list.)
>>>>> and pretty or not it really does cause problems and it's probably
>>>>> better to use it with the old flatgrey theme. There could
>>>>> certainly be other problems, but in general I'd say 09.04 is more
>>>>> solid and certainly much more feature complete.
>>>>>
>>>> How about Jira #2602 - the very first thing you see when you start
>>>> up the demo store is broken (in my book and in my browser). Sorry,
>>>> but this does not bode well for the remainder of the demonstration
>>>> and for a successful outcome should one be a new user testing the
>>>> waters.
>>>>> As far as "ad advertised" goes, I wasn't aware there was anything
>>>>> advertised either way... ;)
>>>> Exactly my point! Its all implied. And since we have nothing else
>>>> to work with, older is better in this case.
>>>>> One nice thing about 09.04 is that the business processes are much
>>>>> more complete. In other words you can run through a business
>>>>> process and not find the big functional gaps that exist in 4.0. A
>>>>> LOT happened in the 2 years between the two releases, and probably
>>>>> around 50 man-years of effort went into things.
>>>> Actually, the devil is in the details. I'm not "dissing" 50
>>>> man-years of work, but how many years of work went into the code
>>>> base prior to the 9.x release? And how many implementations are
>>>> there of 4.x code vs. trunk releases since the branch?
>>>>> This really isn't a small difference. When doing gap analysis
>>>>> based on a set of requirements I haven't seen any business looking
>>>>> for anything, ever, where the feature set of 4.0 would hit even
>>>>> close to the percentage of overlap that 09.04 does.
>>>> That is good to know. Sounds like OFBiz is moving in the right
>>>> direction.
>>>>> Whatever the case, depending on the circumstances I'd still
>>>>> recommend going with the trunk. For reasons we've discussed before
>>>>> in many cases the trunk is actually more bug-free than any release
>>>>> branch as long as you stay updated with it, of course with the
>>>>> release branches you have to stay updated with them too if you
>>>>> want bug fixes (ie that is the "patching" process for them and
>>>>> it's BAD BAD BAD to not update when using the release branches).
>>>>>
>>>> I guess this is where we differ. I'd say a new user - out to kick
>>>> the tires - is not interested in updating or reporting bugs. They
>>>> just want to get started with a minimum of frustration and a
>>>> maximum of success.
>>>>> That said, the basic idea behind the releases and what to choose
>>>>> still holds pretty true, and the release branches are definitely
>>>>> more "stable" (meaning they don't change, not meaning more
>>>>> bug-free, but it does help some with that), see the "How Do I
>>>>> Decide What To Use" section here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/Apache+OFBiz+Getting+Started
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 24, 2009, at 9:49 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Jacques:
>>>>>> I understand and respect where both of you are coming from. But I
>>>>>> think you need to consider that for new users (and this is only
>>>>>> for new users), they should be guided towards using a stable,
>>>>>> proven release. The 4.x release is the only release that is
>>>>>> proven and works out-of-the-box as advertised.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your reference to beginner documentation aside (and, BTW, this is
>>>>>> developer documentation not end-user documentation), I can't in
>>>>>> good conscience suggest to anyone to use code that hasn't been
>>>>>> proven either through formal release management practices or
>>>>>> through actual experience in the field.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>> I totally agree with Ashish (not surprising) but Ruth is also
>>>>>>> right to say that we have still some bugs in R9.04, but it's
>>>>>>> improving day after day and have a lot more features and a
>>>>>>> better architecture. For instance there is still issues with
>>>>>>> Minerva in R4. And IMO, the main reason is you will not get much
>>>>>>> help (if any) from the community with R4. We are almost all
>>>>>>> turned to the future, not the past...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: "Ashish Vijaywargiya" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> -1 for starting with OFBiz 4.0 release.
>>>>>>>> Instead of this I will recommend to start with either Release
>>>>>>>> branch  9.04 or trunk and report any bug found.
>>>>>>>> The main reason of my recommendation is that the beginner
>>>>>>>> document(http://docs.ofbiz.org/x/UBE) and some other document
>>>>>>>> best support to Release Branch 9.04 & trunk.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PS: "4.x trunk release" - Ruth, If I am not wrong "trunk" word
>>>>>>>> is used for the repository on which current development is
>>>>>>>> going on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>> Ashish Vijaywargiya
>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Pvt. Ltd.
>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Helping hand around the World ...
>>>>>>>> USA | Italy | India | New Zealand
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hello Olindo:
>>>>>>>>> IMHO - and not to ruffle any feathers - there are a number of
>>>>>>>>> minor but very visible bugs (mostly in the presentation layer)
>>>>>>>>> in the 9.04 release that could easily discourage and frustrate
>>>>>>>>> a first time user. I found this out the hard way while trying
>>>>>>>>> to use the 9.04 release as a basis for screen shots in my 2
>>>>>>>>> books (and for the myofbiz.com website.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My advice for what it is worth: if you are a beginner, start
>>>>>>>>> with the 4.x trunk release (it's rock solid and proven) and
>>>>>>>>> then, when you understand how OFBiz should work, move on to
>>>>>>>>> 9.04 if needed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Again,
>>>>>>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Olindo Pindaro wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> What is the difference beetween this 2 branches?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TNX
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

[Scott Gray-2]

I can't speak for all lurkers but I am always interested when a 25  
email discussion gets underway :-)

Regards
Scott

On 25/09/2009, at 7:25 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Maybe we can talk further offline. I'm thinking this mailing list  
> isn't too interested in much of this stuff.