Dev - keep postgresql jdbc driver in ofbiz?

[Si Chen-2]

David,

I just saw your commit SVN r 6603, and I think that the PostgreSQL JDBC
driver can be kept because it is BSD licensed.  
(http://jdbc.postgresql.org/license.html)

Perhaps we should keep this one in there, since it's pretty popular with
others in the community?

Thanks,

Si
 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

[David E. Jones]

Si,

It is BSD licensed but as I mentioned in the commit comment I'd  
rather not have it in there because of version incompatibilities that  
sometimes come up (ie people run with OFBiz out of the box and point  
it to their database with whatever version and then wonder why the  
database isn't working quite right). It is inconvenient though, and  
actually the Postgres driver is the only one of the ones I just  
removed that I would consider keeping...

I guess we should discuss this... Does anyone else have any thoughts  
on this?

-David


On Jan 27, 2006, at 4:12 PM, Si Chen wrote:

> David,
>
> I just saw your commit SVN r 6603, and I think that the PostgreSQL  
> JDBC
> driver can be kept because it is BSD licensed.
> (http://jdbc.postgresql.org/license.html)
>
> Perhaps we should keep this one in there, since it's pretty popular  
> with
> others in the community?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Si
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

[Daniel Kunkel]

Si, David

Is it possible that SequoiaERP could continue to embed the drivers since
I'm guessing it's going into apache too, or will that not work because
of some part of the apache license?




On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 15:12 -0800, Si Chen wrote:

> David,
>
> I just saw your commit SVN r 6603, and I think that the PostgreSQL JDBC
> driver can be kept because it is BSD licensed.  
> (http://jdbc.postgresql.org/license.html)
>
> Perhaps we should keep this one in there, since it's pretty popular with
> others in the community?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Si
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

--
Daniel

*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-
Have a GREAT Day!

Daniel Kunkel           [hidden email]
BioWaves, LLC           http://www.BioWaves.com
14150 NE 20th St. Suite F1
Bellevue, WA 98007
800-734-3588    425-895-0050
http://www.Apartment-Pets.com  http://www.Focus-Illusion.com
http://www.Brain-Fun.com       http://www.ColorGlasses.com
*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-

 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

[Daniel Kunkel]

Try that again:

Si, David

Is it possible that SequoiaERP could continue to embed the drivers since
I'm guessing it is not going into apache too, or will that not work
because
of some part of the apache license?


On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 15:12 -0800, Si Chen wrote:

> David,
>
> I just saw your commit SVN r 6603, and I think that the PostgreSQL JDBC
> driver can be kept because it is BSD licensed.  
> (http://jdbc.postgresql.org/license.html)
>
> Perhaps we should keep this one in there, since it's pretty popular with
> others in the community?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Si
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

[David E. Jones]

On Jan 27, 2006, at 4:25 PM, Daniel Kunkel wrote:

> Si, David
>
> Is it possible that SequoiaERP could continue to embed the drivers  
> since
> I'm guessing it's going into apache too, or will that not work because
> of some part of the apache license?
>

This has nothing to do with Apache. Posgtres has a very friendly  
license that is fully Apache compatible. The reason (as mentioned  
before) is that people run into problems every so often with using a  
newer version of the Postgres JDBC driver with an older version of  
Postgres.

-David
 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

[Daniel Kunkel]

Hi

Thanks. I didn't mean just Postgres driver which does have some version
issues, but all of the embedded components that may need to be removed
in OFBiz proper to meet Apache licensing requirements.

I guess it would be wise to ask this question twice, once for the GPL
licensed software, and another for the non-GPL licensed software.

Thanks

On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 16:35 -0700, David E. Jones wrote:

> On Jan 27, 2006, at 4:25 PM, Daniel Kunkel wrote:
>
> > Si, David
> >
> > Is it possible that SequoiaERP could continue to embed the drivers  
> > since
> > I'm guessing it's going into apache too, or will that not work because
> > of some part of the apache license?
> >
>
> This has nothing to do with Apache. Posgtres has a very friendly  
> license that is fully Apache compatible. The reason (as mentioned  
> before) is that people run into problems every so often with using a  
> newer version of the Postgres JDBC driver with an older version of  
> Postgres.
>
> -David
>  _______________________________________________ Dev mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

[Si Chen-2]

David,

I think more people would benefit from having it out of the box, esp.
since the version we have in there seems to work with current versions.  
But if you want to keep it a policy not to include these things so we
don't have to worry about them going forward, that's ok too.

Si

David E. Jones wrote:

>
> On Jan 27, 2006, at 4:25 PM, Daniel Kunkel wrote:
>
>> Si, David
>>
>> Is it possible that SequoiaERP could continue to embed the drivers  
>> since
>> I'm guessing it's going into apache too, or will that not work because
>> of some part of the apache license?
>>
>
> This has nothing to do with Apache. Posgtres has a very friendly  
> license that is fully Apache compatible. The reason (as mentioned  
> before) is that people run into problems every so often with using a  
> newer version of the Postgres JDBC driver with an older version of  
> Postgres.
>
> -David
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Dev mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev
>

 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

[Jacopo Cappellato]

I think this could be a good chance to experiment a new way of taking
this kind of decisions: by voting.
Since we are moving toward the Apache Incubator and then (hopefully) to
the Apache Software Foundation, and since votes are often used there as
a way to take decisions by consensus
(http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html), why don't we try to
apply this process here?

It would be nice to see if it works well for us too.

What do you think?

Jacopo



Si Chen wrote:

> David,
>
> I think more people would benefit from having it out of the box, esp.
> since the version we have in there seems to work with current versions.  
> But if you want to keep it a policy not to include these things so we
> don't have to worry about them going forward, that's ok too.
>
> Si
>
> David E. Jones wrote:
>
>> On Jan 27, 2006, at 4:25 PM, Daniel Kunkel wrote:
>>
>>> Si, David
>>>
>>> Is it possible that SequoiaERP could continue to embed the drivers  
>>> since
>>> I'm guessing it's going into apache too, or will that not work because
>>> of some part of the apache license?
>>>
>> This has nothing to do with Apache. Posgtres has a very friendly  
>> license that is fully Apache compatible. The reason (as mentioned  
>> before) is that people run into problems every so often with using a  
>> newer version of the Postgres JDBC driver with an older version of  
>> Postgres.
>>
>> -David
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev
>>
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev
>

 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

[Jacques Le Roux]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jacopo Cappellato" <[hidden email]>

> I think this could be a good chance to experiment a new way of taking
> this kind of decisions: by voting.
> Since we are moving toward the Apache Incubator and then (hopefully) to
> the Apache Software Foundation, and since votes are often used there as
> a way to take decisions by consensus
> (http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html), why don't we try to
> apply this process here?
>
> It would be nice to see if it works well for us too.
>
> What do you think?

I agree, that's the essence of democracy !
Some questions arise :
1) But who can vote and why ?
2) May someone (or a group) has a veto ? (like in UNO security council or else)
   etc., to be continued...

Jacques

>
> Jacopo
>
>
>
> Si Chen wrote:
> > David,
> >
> > I think more people would benefit from having it out of the box, esp.
> > since the version we have in there seems to work with current versions.  
> > But if you want to keep it a policy not to include these things so we
> > don't have to worry about them going forward, that's ok too.
> >
> > Si
> >
> > David E. Jones wrote:
> >
> >> On Jan 27, 2006, at 4:25 PM, Daniel Kunkel wrote:
> >>
> >>> Si, David
> >>>
> >>> Is it possible that SequoiaERP could continue to embed the drivers  
> >>> since
> >>> I'm guessing it's going into apache too, or will that not work because
> >>> of some part of the apache license?
> >>>
> >> This has nothing to do with Apache. Posgtres has a very friendly  
> >> license that is fully Apache compatible. The reason (as mentioned  
> >> before) is that people run into problems every so often with using a  
> >> newer version of the Postgres JDBC driver with an older version of  
> >> Postgres.
> >>
> >> -David
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Dev mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev
> >>
> >  
> > _______________________________________________
> > Dev mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev
> >
>
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

[Jacopo Cappellato]

Hi Jacques,

these are good points.

Well, both your two questions are already addressed by the ASF policies
(see the link in my previous post for more details), but here we are not
still so formal ;-)

The idea is that there are binding and non-binding votes: everyone in
the list can express a non-binding vote; only the contributors and
developers of the project can express binding votes.
Votes are represented by a number between -1 and +1. Even if formally
only the binding votes are considered, all the votes are important to
get the community feeling about a decision.

But I think that now, for the postgresql jdbc issue, we could all
express a vote without worrying too much about binding/non-binding ones...

Jacopo


Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>
> I agree, that's the essence of democracy !
> Some questions arise :
> 1) But who can vote and why ?
> 2) May someone (or a group) has a veto ? (like in UNO security council or else)
>    etc., to be continued...
>
> Jacques
>

 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

[Scott Gray]

Why not just include the jars and add a readme disclaimer stating that
included jars are for convenience and may not be compatible with your db
version?

Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Jacopo Cappellato
Sent: Saturday, 28 January 2006 10:45 p.m.
To: OFBiz Project Development Discussion
Subject: Re: [OFBiz] Dev - keep postgresql jdbc driver in ofbiz?

Hi Jacques,

these are good points.

Well, both your two questions are already addressed by the ASF policies
(see the link in my previous post for more details), but here we are not
still so formal ;-)

The idea is that there are binding and non-binding votes: everyone in
the list can express a non-binding vote; only the contributors and
developers of the project can express binding votes.
Votes are represented by a number between -1 and +1. Even if formally
only the binding votes are considered, all the votes are important to
get the community feeling about a decision.

But I think that now, for the postgresql jdbc issue, we could all
express a vote without worrying too much about binding/non-binding ones...

Jacopo


Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>
> I agree, that's the essence of democracy !
> Some questions arise :
> 1) But who can vote and why ?
> 2) May someone (or a group) has a veto ? (like in UNO security council or
else)
>    etc., to be continued...
>
> Jacques
>

 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

[Jacopo Cappellato]

Hi (again) Jacques,

in my previous post I've not answered to the second part of your first
question (the "why" part):

> 1) But who can vote and why ?

The main reasons are:
* meritocracy
* "do-ocracy"

This is the definition of "do-ocracy" from the ASF site
(http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html):

"Projects are normally auto governing and driven by the people who
volunteer for the job. This is sometimes referred to as "do-ocracy" --
power of those who do. This functions well for most cases."

Jacopo
 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

[Jacques Le Roux]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jacopo Cappellato" <[hidden email]>

> Hi (again) Jacques,
>
> in my previous post I've not answered to the second part of your first
> question (the "why" part):
>
> > 1) But who can vote and why ?
>
> The main reasons are:
> * meritocracy
> * "do-ocracy"

Thanks Jacopo, that's clear !

Jacques

> This is the definition of "do-ocracy" from the ASF site
> (http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html):
>
> "Projects are normally auto governing and driven by the people who
> volunteer for the job. This is sometimes referred to as "do-ocracy" --
> power of those who do. This functions well for most cases."
>
> Jacopo
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

[Martin van den Bemt]

>
>
> I agree, that's the essence of democracy !

We call it meritocracy :)

> Some questions arise :
> 1) But who can vote and why ?

Everyone can vote or start a vote, when he or she finds it appropiate to start a vote.
Take this thread.. If you think this should be a vote, just start a new thread like
[VOTE] Keep postgresql jdbc driver in ofbiz
wait 72 hours and count the votes and post a [RESULT][VOTE] and act upon it.

For releases and getting new committers onboard, you need to have a vote, with at least 3 binding
votes (which normally means that people are on the PMC of the project)

We normally don't ignore the non binding votes, since they are a good indicator on how big the
support is and not only people with binding votes have something interesting to say :).

> 2) May someone (or a group) has a veto ? (like in UNO security council or else)
>    etc., to be continued...

Yes. In some cases it helps that you have a binding vote though :)


Here are some examples of votes (I have chosen jakarta-commons, since a lot of voting happens there
in all kind of ways)

An example of a veto :
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=113718875321843&w=2
an example of a veto on a commit :
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=113493934532675&w=2
an exmaple of a result vote :
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=113608974830663&w=2
an example of a release vote :
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=113506171306217&w=2
an example of a new release vote after being vetod :
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=113398845924572&w=2
an example of a new commiter vote :
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=112768083812472&w=2
(which I have never seen a veto about though)

Hope this helps a bit :)

Mvgr,
Martin
 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

[David E. Jones]

Yes, I think it would be a good idea to start voting on this. If for  
no other reason it's VERY helpful for everyone working on OFBiz to  
have feedback from those who are using it and every one who is  
working on it. There aren't very many people that see each other face  
to face on a regular basis in the project, so this is really the main  
way we have to communicate... and voting can be a nice way to  
formalize and clarify some of that communication.

And of course as we get more into this Apache thing, voting will  
become much more common, and (hopefully...) at some point even  
necessary!

-David


On Jan 28, 2006, at 5:52 AM, Martin van den Bemt wrote:

>>
>>
>> I agree, that's the essence of democracy !
>
> We call it meritocracy :)
>
>> Some questions arise :
>> 1) But who can vote and why ?
>
> Everyone can vote or start a vote, when he or she finds it  
> appropiate to start a vote.
> Take this thread.. If you think this should be a vote, just start a  
> new thread like
> [VOTE] Keep postgresql jdbc driver in ofbiz
> wait 72 hours and count the votes and post a [RESULT][VOTE] and act  
> upon it.
>
> For releases and getting new committers onboard, you need to have a  
> vote, with at least 3 binding
> votes (which normally means that people are on the PMC of the project)
>
> We normally don't ignore the non binding votes, since they are a  
> good indicator on how big the
> support is and not only people with binding votes have something  
> interesting to say :).
>
>> 2) May someone (or a group) has a veto ? (like in UNO security  
>> council or else)
>>    etc., to be continued...
>
> Yes. In some cases it helps that you have a binding vote though :)
>
>
> Here are some examples of votes (I have chosen jakarta-commons,  
> since a lot of voting happens there
> in all kind of ways)
>
> An example of a veto :
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons- 
> dev&m=113718875321843&w=2
> an example of a veto on a commit :
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons- 
> dev&m=113493934532675&w=2
> an exmaple of a result vote :
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons- 
> dev&m=113608974830663&w=2
> an example of a release vote :
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons- 
> dev&m=113506171306217&w=2
> an example of a new release vote after being vetod :
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons- 
> dev&m=113398845924572&w=2
> an example of a new commiter vote :
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons- 
> dev&m=112768083812472&w=2
> (which I have never seen a veto about though)
>
> Hope this helps a bit :)
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

 
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/dev