Dojo and Opera Browser

[Walter Vaughan]

I know that there is work afoot to integrate some ajax functionality
with the DOJO toolkit. So to see what the deal was I browsed on over
to their foundation's website.

However I found that none of their web demos worked for me. Didn't even
fail gracefully. I then pasted the URI of the demos into a firefox
browser, and the demos worked. Uh-oh.

One of the great strengths of ofBiz is that it can be operated from
most any web capable device. And one of the growing areas of technology
is web enabled phones, and a significant number of those phones use
the Opera browser. I'd guess its at least high single digits or greater.

I'd hate to think that no ofBiz-ian has tested dojo with opera, or that the
dojo folks think opera is "broken", since it's not.


--
Walter

[Scott Gray]

Hi Walter

I did a quick google and found this (posted feb '07):
"Xsss4hell, what does “do almost not work” mean? The demos on the web
site are currently outdated… we’re redoing the web site, but there are
plenty of test cases in the source tree. Most of Dojo works with Opera
except for a few bugs here and there. If there are high priority issues
you find with Opera, please file bugs in the Dojo trac
<http://trac.dojotoolkit.org/>."

Regards
Scott

Walter Vaughan wrote:

> I know that there is work afoot to integrate some ajax functionality
> with the DOJO toolkit. So to see what the deal was I browsed on over
> to their foundation's website.
>
> However I found that none of their web demos worked for me. Didn't even
> fail gracefully. I then pasted the URI of the demos into a firefox
> browser, and the demos worked. Uh-oh.
>
> One of the great strengths of ofBiz is that it can be operated from
> most any web capable device. And one of the growing areas of technology
> is web enabled phones, and a significant number of those phones use
> the Opera browser. I'd guess its at least high single digits or greater.
>
> I'd hate to think that no ofBiz-ian has tested dojo with opera, or
> that the
> dojo folks think opera is "broken", since it's not.
>
>
> --
> Walter
>

[Walter Vaughan]

Scott Gray wrote:

> Hi Walter
>
> I did a quick google and found this (posted feb '07):
> "Xsss4hell, what does “do almost not work” mean? The demos on the web
> site are currently outdated… we’re redoing the web site, but there are
> plenty of test cases in the source tree. Most of Dojo works with Opera
> except for a few bugs here and there. If there are high priority
> issues you find with Opera, please file bugs in the Dojo trac
> <http://trac.dojotoolkit.org/>."

I'd hope that someone tests this out considerably before chunking dojo
into ofBiz's UI.
With a current IE7 and FF 2.0.0.2 on WindowsXP, on dojo's known to be
outdated website,
there are significant differences even between the behavior of  IE and
FF. It's kinda scarey that many,
not just a few don't work properly with FF. It looks like they wrote the
thing with IE in mind and
FF is just luck, and just dont work at all with Opera. If it all works
*now*, I'll shut up,
but the fact that they don't eat their own dogfood is troubling. If
their API's changed so much that they
cannot just use an updated library, what kinda overhead will ofBiz have
to go through when they go from a
.4X to .9X to a 1.0 release this year?

I'm not against change. I'd love to see every list that returns rows of
data be sortable automagically.
Text validation. Numeric validation. Did I say sortable columns?
I just dont want to see ofBiz adapt a toolkit that is not 99% compliant,
and breaks normal web experience.
If the current version of Dojo does meet testing, then I can't wait for
Christmas to come!

--
Walter

> Walter Vaughan wrote:
>
>> I know that there is work afoot to integrate some ajax functionality
>> with the DOJO toolkit. So to see what the deal was I browsed on over
>> to their foundation's website.
>

[Tim Ruppert]

I personally would love to see some numbers on browser market share when it comes to Opera.  We have had no problems on any of our custom apps that are using Dojo for AJAX - working in Safari, FF on windows or the mac - and even on the dreaded IE.

My guess is that Opera doesn't have close to 1% marketshare - anywhere (just a guess if someone has up to date numbers that would be awesome).  This doesn't mean that we shouldn't work hard to get these issues working with Opera - and even bug the Dojo guys about - Scott thanks for the link.  But what it does mean to me is that more than our users (which is what is important here) - we need to prioritize getting this working for developers.  

Walter - does this stuff not work for you on Firefox on Linux?

Cheers,

Tim

--

Tim Ruppert

HotWax Media

http://www.hotwaxmedia.com

o:801.649.6594

f:801.649.6595

On Feb 24, 2007, at 3:44 PM, Walter Vaughan wrote:

Scott Gray wrote:

Hi Walter

I did a quick google and found this (posted feb '07):

"Xsss4hell, what does “do almost not work” mean? The demos on the web site are currently outdated… we’re redoing the web site, but there are plenty of test cases in the source tree. Most of Dojo works with Opera except for a few bugs here and there. If there are high priority issues you find with Opera, please file bugs in the Dojo trac <http://trac.dojotoolkit.org/>."

I'd hope that someone tests this out considerably before chunking dojo into ofBiz's UI.

With a current IE7 and FF 2.0.0.2 on WindowsXP, on dojo's known to be outdated website,

there are significant differences even between the behavior of  IE and FF. It's kinda scarey that many,

not just a few don't work properly with FF. It looks like they wrote the thing with IE in mind and

FF is just luck, and just dont work at all with Opera. If it all works *now*, I'll shut up,

but the fact that they don't eat their own dogfood is troubling. If their API's changed so much that they

cannot just use an updated library, what kinda overhead will ofBiz have to go through when they go from a

.4X to .9X to a 1.0 release this year?

I'm not against change. I'd love to see every list that returns rows of data be sortable automagically.

Text validation. Numeric validation. Did I say sortable columns?

I just dont want to see ofBiz adapt a toolkit that is not 99% compliant, and breaks normal web experience.

If the current version of Dojo does meet testing, then I can't wait for Christmas to come!

--

Walter

Walter Vaughan wrote:

I know that there is work afoot to integrate some ajax functionality

with the DOJO toolkit. So to see what the deal was I browsed on over

to their foundation's website.

[Tim Ruppert]

Also, let's keep in mind that the current use of Dojo is in an example checkout process.  Just about all checkout processes are rewritten to handle the individual workflows of each customer - so having one in there certainly isn't stopping anything from working.

There are some components that are being used in working with the new CMS component, but none of that is set in stone at this point.  My guess is that if Dojo makes the usage of CMS much easier for the other 99.9% of the people out there - we might have to think about doing two things:  

1. Working with Dojo to make it more compliant with Opera 

2. Have people who use opera use one of the many others that _do_ work with it.  Especially if this will help gain acceptance of OFBiz for more content related operations.

Just my two cents

Cheers,

Tim

--

Tim Ruppert

HotWax Media

http://www.hotwaxmedia.com

o:801.649.6594

f:801.649.6595

On Feb 24, 2007, at 4:28 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote:

I personally would love to see some numbers on browser market share when it comes to Opera.  We have had no problems on any of our custom apps that are using Dojo for AJAX - working in Safari, FF on windows or the mac - and even on the dreaded IE.

My guess is that Opera doesn't have close to 1% marketshare - anywhere (just a guess if someone has up to date numbers that would be awesome).  This doesn't mean that we shouldn't work hard to get these issues working with Opera - and even bug the Dojo guys about - Scott thanks for the link.  But what it does mean to me is that more than our users (which is what is important here) - we need to prioritize getting this working for developers.  

Walter - does this stuff not work for you on Firefox on Linux?

Cheers,

Tim

--

Tim Ruppert

HotWax Media

http://www.hotwaxmedia.com

o:801.649.6594

f:801.649.6595

On Feb 24, 2007, at 3:44 PM, Walter Vaughan wrote:

Scott Gray wrote:

Hi Walter

I did a quick google and found this (posted feb '07):

"Xsss4hell, what does “do almost not work” mean? The demos on the web site are currently outdated… we’re redoing the web site, but there are plenty of test cases in the source tree. Most of Dojo works with Opera except for a few bugs here and there. If there are high priority issues you find with Opera, please file bugs in the Dojo trac <http://trac.dojotoolkit.org/>."

I'd hope that someone tests this out considerably before chunking dojo into ofBiz's UI.

With a current IE7 and FF 2.0.0.2 on WindowsXP, on dojo's known to be outdated website,

there are significant differences even between the behavior of  IE and FF. It's kinda scarey that many,

not just a few don't work properly with FF. It looks like they wrote the thing with IE in mind and

FF is just luck, and just dont work at all with Opera. If it all works *now*, I'll shut up,

but the fact that they don't eat their own dogfood is troubling. If their API's changed so much that they

cannot just use an updated library, what kinda overhead will ofBiz have to go through when they go from a

.4X to .9X to a 1.0 release this year?

I'm not against change. I'd love to see every list that returns rows of data be sortable automagically.

Text validation. Numeric validation. Did I say sortable columns?

I just dont want to see ofBiz adapt a toolkit that is not 99% compliant, and breaks normal web experience.

If the current version of Dojo does meet testing, then I can't wait for Christmas to come!

--

Walter

Walter Vaughan wrote:

I know that there is work afoot to integrate some ajax functionality

with the DOJO toolkit. So to see what the deal was I browsed on over

to their foundation's website.

[Walter Vaughan]

Tim Ruppert wrote:

> Walter - does this stuff not work for you on Firefox on Linux?


What wigged me out about it was that with FF2 (updated today) for XP and
IE7 on the same windows laptop,
many of the demo examples worked quite different under IE and FF. They
seemed more fluid under
IE, and better behaved.

An example that bothered me the most was the validation page.
FF would pass bad variables, IE worked perfect. FF would submit bad data
on an "Enter", IE would
only submit when the submit button was pushed, and all fields has proper
data.

Besides ecommerce, I see lots of places that it would be important to be
able to configure back office UI elements
to use ajax instead of plain html.
Clickable, sortable columns are a given in client/server ERP's that I
have seen, and one feature that I have had
to apologize for when training people in ofBiz when they instinctively
click on a column heading and nothing happens.
If it looks even remotely like Excel, users expect it to act like Excel.

Do you think there will be elements sometime in the future utilizing
ajax tools to aid in data verification? E.g. running a service to
determine/correct city and state from a given zip code? CASS correcting
addresses as they are entered?

--
Walter

[Tim Ruppert]

I am sure as this toolkit begins to get used by more people in the community it will find it's way into the admin application.  As I mentioned before, there is work going on on the CMS side of the fence that is utilizing this technology to make it easier on users.

Walter, if you or any other power users out there, have any recommendations on backend usability upgrades, please make sure that these kind of things start to make their way to a larger list that's being developed for the hackathon.

Cheers,

Tim

--

Tim Ruppert

HotWax Media

http://www.hotwaxmedia.com

o:801.649.6594

f:801.649.6595

On Feb 24, 2007, at 8:21 PM, Walter Vaughan wrote:

Tim Ruppert wrote:

Walter - does this stuff not work for you on Firefox on Linux?

What wigged me out about it was that with FF2 (updated today) for XP and IE7 on the same windows laptop,

many of the demo examples worked quite different under IE and FF. They seemed more fluid under

IE, and better behaved.

An example that bothered me the most was the validation page.

FF would pass bad variables, IE worked perfect. FF would submit bad data on an "Enter", IE would

only submit when the submit button was pushed, and all fields has proper data.

Besides ecommerce, I see lots of places that it would be important to be able to configure back office UI elements

to use ajax instead of plain html.

Clickable, sortable columns are a given in client/server ERP's that I have seen, and one feature that I have had

to apologize for when training people in ofBiz when they instinctively click on a column heading and nothing happens.

If it looks even remotely like Excel, users expect it to act like Excel.

Do you think there will be elements sometime in the future utilizing ajax tools to aid in data verification? E.g. running a service to

determine/correct city and state from a given zip code? CASS correcting addresses as they are entered?

--

Walter

[Andrew Sykes]

Walter,

I looked at Dojo a while back and abandoned it as it seemed far from
mature. I don't have a list, but there was loads of weird things
happening, so, yeah I agree it may well prove to be a real pain!

- Andrew

On Sat, 2007-02-24 at 15:38 -0500, Walter Vaughan wrote:

> I know that there is work afoot to integrate some ajax functionality
> with the DOJO toolkit. So to see what the deal was I browsed on over
> to their foundation's website.
>
> However I found that none of their web demos worked for me. Didn't even
> fail gracefully. I then pasted the URI of the demos into a firefox
> browser, and the demos worked. Uh-oh.
>
> One of the great strengths of ofBiz is that it can be operated from
> most any web capable device. And one of the growing areas of technology
> is web enabled phones, and a significant number of those phones use
> the Opera browser. I'd guess its at least high single digits or greater.
>
> I'd hate to think that no ofBiz-ian has tested dojo with opera, or that the
> dojo folks think opera is "broken", since it's not.
>
>
> --
> Walter

--
Kind Regards
Andrew Sykes <[hidden email]>
Sykes Development Ltd
http://www.sykesdevelopment.com

[vpatt]

 One problem that will arise in creating web pages using multiple AJAX
toolkits will be contention for browser resources and JavaScript library
clobbering on the client side.  The OpenAjax Alliance is striving to
overcome this problem with the OpenAjax Hub
http://www.openajax.org/OpenAjax%20Hub.html.  The hub is a part of the
framework that batches messages out of the browser to a service
listener.  So I think OFBiz should be less concerned with the client
side implementation, for now, and focus more on services that can
deliver good XML that doesn't pass through the HTML templates.
I'm looking at implementing DWR http://getahead.ltd.uk/dwr with my OFBiz
installation.

--Vic

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Sykes [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 6:24 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Dojo and Opera Browser

Walter,

I looked at Dojo a while back and abandoned it as it seemed far from
mature. I don't have a list, but there was loads of weird things
happening, so, yeah I agree it may well prove to be a real pain!

- Andrew

On Sat, 2007-02-24 at 15:38 -0500, Walter Vaughan wrote:

> I know that there is work afoot to integrate some ajax functionality
> with the DOJO toolkit. So to see what the deal was I browsed on over
> to their foundation's website.
>
> However I found that none of their web demos worked for me. Didn't
> even fail gracefully. I then pasted the URI of the demos into a
> firefox browser, and the demos worked. Uh-oh.
>
> One of the great strengths of ofBiz is that it can be operated from
> most any web capable device. And one of the growing areas of
> technology is web enabled phones, and a significant number of those
> phones use the Opera browser. I'd guess its at least high single

digits or greater.
>
> I'd hate to think that no ofBiz-ian has tested dojo with opera, or
> that the dojo folks think opera is "broken", since it's not.
>
>
> --
> Walter
--
Kind Regards
Andrew Sykes <[hidden email]> Sykes Development Ltd
http://www.sykesdevelopment.com