Feedback on Committer Mentoring and HipChat

[Sharan-F]

Hi All

A few weeks ago, in response to the results of the Committer Survey, I setup a trial Hipchat environment to help with Committer Mentoring.  (See links to the previous discussion threads below:)

https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8b8738c3adcb1b7aafd7c90f9b1cbb54500578d8cd392c3b18d635b9@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E

https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b64aad3bbaca967cf432adfd62ce68901c95218a8aa59d706aed6bc@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E

I really liked the HipChat environment and think that it's a great collaborative tool that also helps build community spirit. So now I'd like to get some feedback :-)

First of all I'd like to hear from the committers and mentors who participated to find out what they thought of the HipChat environment, what their general comments are and whether they would like it to be made available on a permanent basis.  

Secondly I'd like to get some general feedback from everyone to find out if the whole community would also be interested in participating in HipChat environment (e.g. for collaborating on Jiras, or during our Community Days). Other ASF projects have HipChat spaces setup and publish a link that anyone can use to join and we could do the same.

The mailing list would still be used for discussions and decisions but if people are working together on a particular task then this could be a good way to speed up the process.  I'm thinking particularly about things like the re-factoring and our Jira backlog where bringing together the reporter and the developer could make things move a lot more quickly!)

We have another Community Day coming up in a few weeks on 17th September so it could be a good chance to see how it could work in action. What do people think?

Thanks
Sharan

[Divesh Dutta-2]

Hi Sharan,

Thanks for starting this thread. In general, I think that setting up
HipChat environment is a good step and it helps to communicate with other
committers and collaborate on common tasks. So in my opinion we can make it
available on permanent basis.

About using it for whole community on community days can be good idea.
However using it in all other days may not be good idea for whole
community. So yes, as you mentioned that discussions and decisions will
still be done on mailing lists. Once we have  some thing concrete to work
upon after discussions on mailing lists and we have volunteers who will be
working together on common task, then they might use HipChat for
collaboration.

+1 for using HipChat on upcoming community day.


Thanks
--
Divesh Dutta.




On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Sharan Foga <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi All
>
> A few weeks ago, in response to the results of the Committer Survey, I
> setup a trial Hipchat environment to help with Committer Mentoring.  (See
> links to the previous discussion threads below:)
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8b8738c3adcb1b7aafd7c90f9b1cbb
> 54500578d8cd392c3b18d635b9@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b64aad3bbaca967cf432adfd62ce6
> 8901c95218a8aa59d706aed6bc@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>
> I really liked the HipChat environment and think that it's a great
> collaborative tool that also helps build community spirit. So now I'd like
> to get some feedback :-)
>
> First of all I'd like to hear from the committers and mentors who
> participated to find out what they thought of the HipChat environment, what
> their general comments are and whether they would like it to be made
> available on a permanent basis.
>
> Secondly I'd like to get some general feedback from everyone to find out
> if the whole community would also be interested in participating in HipChat
> environment (e.g. for collaborating on Jiras, or during our Community
> Days). Other ASF projects have HipChat spaces setup and publish a link that
> anyone can use to join and we could do the same.
>
> The mailing list would still be used for discussions and decisions but if
> people are working together on a particular task then this could be a good
> way to speed up the process.  I'm thinking particularly about things like
> the re-factoring and our Jira backlog where bringing together the reporter
> and the developer could make things move a lot more quickly!)
>
> We have another Community Day coming up in a few weeks on 17th September
> so it could be a good chance to see how it could work in action. What do
> people think?
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>

[Gil Portenseigne]

Hello Sharan,

I really think that HipChat is a good tool to help teamwork and mentoring, it offers interactiveness that mailing list cannot offer. That was very helpful in librairies externalization work.

Since it's technically possible, it's best to be open to anyone teamworking or in mentorship.

Hipchat also allow some unformal friendly discussions, that can help us to know each other, in that, I found it great.

But I think that it is very important to keep in mind the apache mantra "If it didn't happen on a mailing list, it didn't happen.", so every starting discussion leading to a possible decision, could first be discussed in hipchat (to have a quick feedback about a fresh idea for example), but have to be sent into proper mailing-lists.

Many Thanks Sharan for your work around this tool introduction !

Gil

Le 22/08/2016 à 10:42, Sharan Foga a écrit :

Hi All

A few weeks ago, in response to the results of the Committer Survey, I setup a trial Hipchat environment to help with Committer Mentoring.  (See links to the previous discussion threads below:)

https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8b8738c3adcb1b7aafd7c90f9b1cbb54500578d8cd392c3b18d635b9@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E

https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b64aad3bbaca967cf432adfd62ce68901c95218a8aa59d706aed6bc@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E

I really liked the HipChat environment and think that it's a great collaborative tool that also helps build community spirit. So now I'd like to get some feedback :-)

First of all I'd like to hear from the committers and mentors who participated to find out what they thought of the HipChat environment, what their general comments are and whether they would like it to be made available on a permanent basis.  

Secondly I'd like to get some general feedback from everyone to find out if the whole community would also be interested in participating in HipChat environment (e.g. for collaborating on Jiras, or during our Community Days). Other ASF projects have HipChat spaces setup and publish a link that anyone can use to join and we could do the same.

The mailing list would still be used for discussions and decisions but if people are working together on a particular task then this could be a good way to speed up the process.  I'm thinking particularly about things like the re-factoring and our Jira backlog where bringing together the reporter and the developer could make things move a lot more quickly!)

We have another Community Day coming up in a few weeks on 17th September so it could be a good chance to see how it could work in action. What do people think?

Thanks
Sharan

[Jacques Le Roux]

Thanks Gil,

I think you've  nailed it

I also agree with Divesh when he says

"About using it for whole community on community days can be good idea.
However using it in all other days may not be good idea for whole
community. So yes, as you mentioned that discussions and decisions will
still be done on mailing lists. Once we have  some thing concrete to work
upon after discussions on mailing lists and we have volunteers who will be
working together on common task, then they might use HipChat for
collaboration."

Jacques


Le 22/08/2016 à 14:29, gil portenseigne a écrit :

>
> Hello Sharan,
>
> I really think that HipChat is a good tool to help teamwork and mentoring, it offers interactiveness that mailing list cannot offer. That was very
> helpful in librairies externalization work.
>
> Since it's technically possible, it's best to be open to anyone teamworking or in mentorship.
>
> Hipchat also allow some unformal friendly discussions, that can help us to know each other, in that, I found it great.
>
> But I think that it is very important to keep in mind the apache mantra "If it didn't happen on a mailing list, it didn't happen.", so every
> starting discussion leading to a possible decision, could first be discussed in hipchat (to have a quick feedback about a fresh idea for example),
> but have to be sent into proper mailing-lists.
>
> Many Thanks Sharan for your work around this tool introduction !
>
> Gil
>
>
> Le 22/08/2016 à 10:42, Sharan Foga a écrit :
>> Hi All
>>
>> A few weeks ago, in response to the results of the Committer Survey, I setup a trial Hipchat environment to help with Committer Mentoring.  (See links to the previous discussion threads below:)
>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8b8738c3adcb1b7aafd7c90f9b1cbb54500578d8cd392c3b18d635b9@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b64aad3bbaca967cf432adfd62ce68901c95218a8aa59d706aed6bc@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>>
>> I really liked the HipChat environment and think that it's a great collaborative tool that also helps build community spirit. So now I'd like to get some feedback :-)
>>
>> First of all I'd like to hear from the committers and mentors who participated to find out what they thought of the HipChat environment, what their general comments are and whether they would like it to be made available on a permanent basis.
>>
>> Secondly I'd like to get some general feedback from everyone to find out if the whole community would also be interested in participating in HipChat environment (e.g. for collaborating on Jiras, or during our Community Days). Other ASF projects have HipChat spaces setup and publish a link that anyone can use to join and we could do the same.
>>
>> The mailing list would still be used for discussions and decisions but if people are working together on a particular task then this could be a good way to speed up the process.  I'm thinking particularly about things like the re-factoring and our Jira backlog where bringing together the reporter and the developer could make things move a lot more quickly!)
>>
>> We have another Community Day coming up in a few weeks on 17th September so it could be a good chance to see how it could work in action. What do people think?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Sharan
>

[zhangwei]

I agree with Divesh.

We should not use HipChat all  days as it is hard to track the discussion topic. Also the developers are in different time zone. It is hard to chat online at the same time

[Jacques Le Roux]

+1

Actually I must say I far prefer async communication (ie email) for many reasons. There are though some cases where it's helpful, but I trust it's
rare. You can react quite quickly to an email too...

And of course still the ASF mantra as a guide: "If it didn't happen on a mailing list, it didn't happen."

Jacques


Le 23/08/2016 à 04:24, Wei Zhang a écrit :
> I agree with Divesh.
>
> We should not use HipChat all  days as it is hard to track the discussion topic. Also the developers are in different time zone. It is hard to chat online at the same time
>

[Julien NICOLAS]

Hi Sharan,

When you start Hipchat, you opened an OFBiz room and I was loving it.
Push Hipchat in the startup app even it's not a Libre Software and
always aware on what's happen on this OFBiz community window. I was the
feeling to be closer to the OFBiz community.

Then, people decided that that window is not good and go back on email
"boring" system. In this community context, it's more difficult to use
email for informal discussion.

So for me, HipChat is one more app for instant messaging. I'm not sure
that is better than Skype or other proprietary software. Why not to
decide to use jabber server that is more in free software way ?

Since the OFBiz room was closed, Hipchat is no more in my startup app.
You have to send me an email to ask me to open Hipchat.

In summary, Hipchat or Skype as you wish, I don't mind.

Julien.

On 22/08/2016 10:42, Sharan Foga wrote:

> Hi All
>
> A few weeks ago, in response to the results of the Committer Survey, I setup a trial Hipchat environment to help with Committer Mentoring.  (See links to the previous discussion threads below:)
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8b8738c3adcb1b7aafd7c90f9b1cbb54500578d8cd392c3b18d635b9@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b64aad3bbaca967cf432adfd62ce68901c95218a8aa59d706aed6bc@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>
> I really liked the HipChat environment and think that it's a great collaborative tool that also helps build community spirit. So now I'd like to get some feedback :-)
>
> First of all I'd like to hear from the committers and mentors who participated to find out what they thought of the HipChat environment, what their general comments are and whether they would like it to be made available on a permanent basis.
>
> Secondly I'd like to get some general feedback from everyone to find out if the whole community would also be interested in participating in HipChat environment (e.g. for collaborating on Jiras, or during our Community Days). Other ASF projects have HipChat spaces setup and publish a link that anyone can use to join and we could do the same.
>
> The mailing list would still be used for discussions and decisions but if people are working together on a particular task then this could be a good way to speed up the process.  I'm thinking particularly about things like the re-factoring and our Jira backlog where bringing together the reporter and the developer could make things move a lot more quickly!)
>
> We have another Community Day coming up in a few weeks on 17th September so it could be a good chance to see how it could work in action. What do people think?
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

If I had to choose I'd pickup Skype, not because it's M$ (heck), but because it's the one with the easier previous lines edition (when this feature
exist). I also use PidGin with XMMP (Jabber), no previous lines edition.

I read recently that the infra team, which uses HipChat a lot for valuable reasons, was questioned about that by the board, because HipChat is
delivered by Atlassian (only the free, minor version) and history is a concern.

Jacques

PS: I don't put, "Hi....", "Regards" and such things in my email when a conversation has begun, because I kinda use them as the same as instant
messaging. Just with a small delay which allows me to easily follow discussion, without having to look 3 pages above and search in them :/ Threads for
the win!


Le 23/08/2016 à 10:21, Julien NICOLAS a écrit :

> Hi Sharan,
>
> When you start Hipchat, you opened an OFBiz room and I was loving it. Push Hipchat in the startup app even it's not a Libre Software and always
> aware on what's happen on this OFBiz community window. I was the feeling to be closer to the OFBiz community.
>
> Then, people decided that that window is not good and go back on email "boring" system. In this community context, it's more difficult to use email
> for informal discussion.
>
> So for me, HipChat is one more app for instant messaging. I'm not sure that is better than Skype or other proprietary software. Why not to decide to
> use jabber server that is more in free software way ?
>
> Since the OFBiz room was closed, Hipchat is no more in my startup app. You have to send me an email to ask me to open Hipchat.
>
> In summary, Hipchat or Skype as you wish, I don't mind.
>
> Julien.
>
> On 22/08/2016 10:42, Sharan Foga wrote:
>> Hi All
>>
>> A few weeks ago, in response to the results of the Committer Survey, I setup a trial Hipchat environment to help with Committer Mentoring.  (See
>> links to the previous discussion threads below:)
>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8b8738c3adcb1b7aafd7c90f9b1cbb54500578d8cd392c3b18d635b9@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b64aad3bbaca967cf432adfd62ce68901c95218a8aa59d706aed6bc@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>>
>> I really liked the HipChat environment and think that it's a great collaborative tool that also helps build community spirit. So now I'd like to
>> get some feedback :-)
>>
>> First of all I'd like to hear from the committers and mentors who participated to find out what they thought of the HipChat environment, what their
>> general comments are and whether they would like it to be made available on a permanent basis.
>>
>> Secondly I'd like to get some general feedback from everyone to find out if the whole community would also be interested in participating in
>> HipChat environment (e.g. for collaborating on Jiras, or during our Community Days). Other ASF projects have HipChat spaces setup and publish a
>> link that anyone can use to join and we could do the same.
>>
>> The mailing list would still be used for discussions and decisions but if people are working together on a particular task then this could be a
>> good way to speed up the process.  I'm thinking particularly about things like the re-factoring and our Jira backlog where bringing together the
>> reporter and the developer could make things move a lot more quickly!)
>>
>> We have another Community Day coming up in a few weeks on 17th September so it could be a good chance to see how it could work in action. What do
>> people think?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Sharan
>>
>
>

[Deepak Dixit-3]

Hi Sharan,

I like HipChat,, it allow us to communicate with each other, it helps in
debugging.


Thanks & Regards
--
Deepak Dixit
www.hotwaxsystems.com

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Jacques Le Roux <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> If I had to choose I'd pickup Skype, not because it's M$ (heck), but
> because it's the one with the easier previous lines edition (when this
> feature exist). I also use PidGin with XMMP (Jabber), no previous lines
> edition.
>
> I read recently that the infra team, which uses HipChat a lot for valuable
> reasons, was questioned about that by the board, because HipChat is
> delivered by Atlassian (only the free, minor version) and history is a
> concern.
>
> Jacques
>
> PS: I don't put, "Hi....", "Regards" and such things in my email when a
> conversation has begun, because I kinda use them as the same as instant
> messaging. Just with a small delay which allows me to easily follow
> discussion, without having to look 3 pages above and search in them :/
> Threads for the win!
>
>
>
> Le 23/08/2016 à 10:21, Julien NICOLAS a écrit :
>
>> Hi Sharan,
>>
>> When you start Hipchat, you opened an OFBiz room and I was loving it.
>> Push Hipchat in the startup app even it's not a Libre Software and always
>> aware on what's happen on this OFBiz community window. I was the feeling to
>> be closer to the OFBiz community.
>>
>> Then, people decided that that window is not good and go back on email
>> "boring" system. In this community context, it's more difficult to use
>> email for informal discussion.
>>
>> So for me, HipChat is one more app for instant messaging. I'm not sure
>> that is better than Skype or other proprietary software. Why not to decide
>> to use jabber server that is more in free software way ?
>>
>> Since the OFBiz room was closed, Hipchat is no more in my startup app.
>> You have to send me an email to ask me to open Hipchat.
>>
>> In summary, Hipchat or Skype as you wish, I don't mind.
>>
>> Julien.
>>
>> On 22/08/2016 10:42, Sharan Foga wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All
>>>
>>> A few weeks ago, in response to the results of the Committer Survey, I
>>> setup a trial Hipchat environment to help with Committer Mentoring.  (See
>>> links to the previous discussion threads below:)
>>>
>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8b8738c3adcb1b7aafd7c90
>>> f9b1cbb54500578d8cd392c3b18d635b9@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>>>
>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b64aad3bbaca967cf432ad
>>> fd62ce68901c95218a8aa59d706aed6bc@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>>>
>>> I really liked the HipChat environment and think that it's a great
>>> collaborative tool that also helps build community spirit. So now I'd like
>>> to get some feedback :-)
>>>
>>> First of all I'd like to hear from the committers and mentors who
>>> participated to find out what they thought of the HipChat environment, what
>>> their general comments are and whether they would like it to be made
>>> available on a permanent basis.
>>>
>>> Secondly I'd like to get some general feedback from everyone to find out
>>> if the whole community would also be interested in participating in HipChat
>>> environment (e.g. for collaborating on Jiras, or during our Community
>>> Days). Other ASF projects have HipChat spaces setup and publish a link that
>>> anyone can use to join and we could do the same.
>>>
>>> The mailing list would still be used for discussions and decisions but
>>> if people are working together on a particular task then this could be a
>>> good way to speed up the process.  I'm thinking particularly about things
>>> like the re-factoring and our Jira backlog where bringing together the
>>> reporter and the developer could make things move a lot more quickly!)
>>>
>>> We have another Community Day coming up in a few weeks on 17th September
>>> so it could be a good chance to see how it could work in action. What do
>>> people think?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Sharan
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

[Ashish Vijaywargiya-4]

Hipchat is a wonderful software. I think opening it for community day can
be a good step but I would refrain to open it on the daily basis. Thanks!

--
Kind Regards
Ashish Vijaywargiya
HotWax Systems - est. 1997


On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Sharan Foga <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi All
>
> A few weeks ago, in response to the results of the Committer Survey, I
> setup a trial Hipchat environment to help with Committer Mentoring.  (See
> links to the previous discussion threads below:)
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8b8738c3adcb1b7aafd7c90f9b1cbb
> 54500578d8cd392c3b18d635b9@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b64aad3bbaca967cf432adfd62ce6
> 8901c95218a8aa59d706aed6bc@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>
> I really liked the HipChat environment and think that it's a great
> collaborative tool that also helps build community spirit. So now I'd like
> to get some feedback :-)
>
> First of all I'd like to hear from the committers and mentors who
> participated to find out what they thought of the HipChat environment, what
> their general comments are and whether they would like it to be made
> available on a permanent basis.
>
> Secondly I'd like to get some general feedback from everyone to find out
> if the whole community would also be interested in participating in HipChat
> environment (e.g. for collaborating on Jiras, or during our Community
> Days). Other ASF projects have HipChat spaces setup and publish a link that
> anyone can use to join and we could do the same.
>
> The mailing list would still be used for discussions and decisions but if
> people are working together on a particular task then this could be a good
> way to speed up the process.  I'm thinking particularly about things like
> the re-factoring and our Jira backlog where bringing together the reporter
> and the developer could make things move a lot more quickly!)
>
> We have another Community Day coming up in a few weeks on 17th September
> so it could be a good chance to see how it could work in action. What do
> people think?
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>

[Scott Gray-3]

I'm in two minds about it.

On one hand it's nice to be able to chat in real time with other community
members and increasing our sense of community is important for the project.

But on the other hand, I fear it would too often be used to have
discussions that should really be had on the user/dev lists.  The benefits
of our discussions on these email lists being archived and searchable
really can't be understated, I use it heavily to refresh my memory (along
with svn history) about anything and everything OFBiz related.

If the HipChat logs were stored with the ASF and made public I would 100%
be in favor of using it.  Maybe in the future infra can come up with
something more suitable.

Community days might be a good compromise between the two positions though,
we could perhaps even copy/paste the chat logs into confluence for future
reference and to benefit those who were unable to attend.

Regards
Scott

On 24 August 2016 at 17:27, Ashish Vijaywargiya <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hipchat is a wonderful software. I think opening it for community day can
> be a good step but I would refrain to open it on the daily basis. Thanks!
>
> --
> Kind Regards
> Ashish Vijaywargiya
> HotWax Systems - est. 1997
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Sharan Foga <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi All
> >
> > A few weeks ago, in response to the results of the Committer Survey, I
> > setup a trial Hipchat environment to help with Committer Mentoring.  (See
> > links to the previous discussion threads below:)
> >
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8b8738c3adcb1b7aafd7c90f9b1cbb
> > 54500578d8cd392c3b18d635b9@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
> >
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b64aad3bbaca967cf432adfd62ce6
> > 8901c95218a8aa59d706aed6bc@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
> >
> > I really liked the HipChat environment and think that it's a great
> > collaborative tool that also helps build community spirit. So now I'd
> like
> > to get some feedback :-)
> >
> > First of all I'd like to hear from the committers and mentors who
> > participated to find out what they thought of the HipChat environment,
> what
> > their general comments are and whether they would like it to be made
> > available on a permanent basis.
> >
> > Secondly I'd like to get some general feedback from everyone to find out
> > if the whole community would also be interested in participating in
> HipChat
> > environment (e.g. for collaborating on Jiras, or during our Community
> > Days). Other ASF projects have HipChat spaces setup and publish a link
> that
> > anyone can use to join and we could do the same.
> >
> > The mailing list would still be used for discussions and decisions but if
> > people are working together on a particular task then this could be a
> good
> > way to speed up the process.  I'm thinking particularly about things like
> > the re-factoring and our Jira backlog where bringing together the
> reporter
> > and the developer could make things move a lot more quickly!)
> >
> > We have another Community Day coming up in a few weeks on 17th September
> > so it could be a good chance to see how it could work in action. What do
> > people think?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Sharan
> >
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Le 23/08/2016 à 11:16, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :
> I read recently that the infra team, which uses HipChat a lot for valuable reasons, was questioned about that by the board, because HipChat is
> delivered by Atlassian (only the free, minor version) and history is a concern.

Sorry, I incorrectly stated that the Board questioned this usage, but in fact it is only individuals board members.

I must say I also faced this issue recently when the OFBiz room was removed w/o prior warning. I was then unable to recall the history.

I just checked, as long as the room is alive the history is "reasonably" limited to 25 000 messages https://www.hipchat.com/pricing
Still not unlimited which can concerns people like me who like to have an unlimited history.

Jacques

[taher]

Hello everyone,

To put some context into this discussion please note the reason why we
started hipchat in the first place is because of communication barriers.

As we started the refactoring project many people were overwhelmed with the
complexity of some of the tasks, and people needed to discuss things and
explore and brainstorm. In that respect the mailing list proved to be an
inefficient communication tool. Here are some reasons:

- You need more energy and time to compose your thoughts and say something
of value in the mailing list.

- It might be intimidating for some individuals to ask very basic questions
or irrelevant topics in the mailing list where everybody's reading. People
usually restrain themselves in the mailing list which is the correct thing
to do. We should not to litter it with a lot of useless information.

- brainstorming is hard on the mailing list because you are exploring an
area that you're not confident in and you need instant feedback and back
and forth exchange to come up with something of value.

- How about mentoring and pair programming? Can you do that in the mailing
list or in the JIRAs? Probably not, or at least not well.

- People get to know each other more closely which add to the harmony of
the project. I made good friends and learned that we have wonderful people
in the community. The exchange to build this kind of rapport might not be
suitable in the mailing list.

So to summarize the mailing list is absolutely important and it is the
basis for all decisions. But we DO have a gap in communication that I think
instant messaging applications like hipchat can fill.

Taher Alkhateeb

On Aug 24, 2016 8:50 AM, "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm in two minds about it.
>
> On one hand it's nice to be able to chat in real time with other community
> members and increasing our sense of community is important for the project.
>
> But on the other hand, I fear it would too often be used to have
> discussions that should really be had on the user/dev lists.  The benefits
> of our discussions on these email lists being archived and searchable
> really can't be understated, I use it heavily to refresh my memory (along
> with svn history) about anything and everything OFBiz related.
>
> If the HipChat logs were stored with the ASF and made public I would 100%
> be in favor of using it.  Maybe in the future infra can come up with
> something more suitable.
>
> Community days might be a good compromise between the two positions though,
> we could perhaps even copy/paste the chat logs into confluence for future
> reference and to benefit those who were unable to attend.
>
> Regards
> Scott
>
> On 24 August 2016 at 17:27, Ashish Vijaywargiya <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hipchat is a wonderful software. I think opening it for community day can
> > be a good step but I would refrain to open it on the daily basis. Thanks!
> >
> > --
> > Kind Regards
> > Ashish Vijaywargiya
> > HotWax Systems - est. 1997
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Sharan Foga <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi All
> > >
> > > A few weeks ago, in response to the results of the Committer Survey, I
> > > setup a trial Hipchat environment to help with Committer Mentoring.
> (See
> > > links to the previous discussion threads below:)
> > >
> > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8b8738c3adcb1b7aafd7c90f9b1cbb
> > > 54500578d8cd392c3b18d635b9@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
> > >
> > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b64aad3bbaca967cf432adfd62ce6
> > > 8901c95218a8aa59d706aed6bc@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
> > >
> > > I really liked the HipChat environment and think that it's a great
> > > collaborative tool that also helps build community spirit. So now I'd
> > like
> > > to get some feedback :-)
> > >
> > > First of all I'd like to hear from the committers and mentors who
> > > participated to find out what they thought of the HipChat environment,
> > what
> > > their general comments are and whether they would like it to be made
> > > available on a permanent basis.
> > >
> > > Secondly I'd like to get some general feedback from everyone to find
> out
> > > if the whole community would also be interested in participating in
> > HipChat
> > > environment (e.g. for collaborating on Jiras, or during our Community
> > > Days). Other ASF projects have HipChat spaces setup and publish a link
> > that
> > > anyone can use to join and we could do the same.
> > >
> > > The mailing list would still be used for discussions and decisions but
> if
> > > people are working together on a particular task then this could be a
> > good
> > > way to speed up the process.  I'm thinking particularly about things
> like
> > > the re-factoring and our Jira backlog where bringing together the
> > reporter
> > > and the developer could make things move a lot more quickly!)
> > >
> > > We have another Community Day coming up in a few weeks on 17th
> September
> > > so it could be a good chance to see how it could work in action. What
> do
> > > people think?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Sharan
> > >
> >
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

I agree Taher, from so far feedbacks it seems it more the manner to use it which needs to be addressed. What about "opening it" only for

1. together working days

2. when we agree about quickly exchanging on a subject previously roughly explained on dev ML

By "opening it" I mean we would have a chat channel always ready but we would use only in these (and possibly others) occasions. Having history always
available is still a must, better if it's automated.

Jacques


Le 24/08/2016 à 09:28, Taher Alkhateeb a écrit :

> Hello everyone,
>
> To put some context into this discussion please note the reason why we
> started hipchat in the first place is because of communication barriers.
>
> As we started the refactoring project many people were overwhelmed with the
> complexity of some of the tasks, and people needed to discuss things and
> explore and brainstorm. In that respect the mailing list proved to be an
> inefficient communication tool. Here are some reasons:
>
> - You need more energy and time to compose your thoughts and say something
> of value in the mailing list.
>
> - It might be intimidating for some individuals to ask very basic questions
> or irrelevant topics in the mailing list where everybody's reading. People
> usually restrain themselves in the mailing list which is the correct thing
> to do. We should not to litter it with a lot of useless information.
>
> - brainstorming is hard on the mailing list because you are exploring an
> area that you're not confident in and you need instant feedback and back
> and forth exchange to come up with something of value.
>
> - How about mentoring and pair programming? Can you do that in the mailing
> list or in the JIRAs? Probably not, or at least not well.
>
> - People get to know each other more closely which add to the harmony of
> the project. I made good friends and learned that we have wonderful people
> in the community. The exchange to build this kind of rapport might not be
> suitable in the mailing list.
>
> So to summarize the mailing list is absolutely important and it is the
> basis for all decisions. But we DO have a gap in communication that I think
> instant messaging applications like hipchat can fill.
>
> Taher Alkhateeb
>
> On Aug 24, 2016 8:50 AM, "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I'm in two minds about it.
>>
>> On one hand it's nice to be able to chat in real time with other community
>> members and increasing our sense of community is important for the project.
>>
>> But on the other hand, I fear it would too often be used to have
>> discussions that should really be had on the user/dev lists.  The benefits
>> of our discussions on these email lists being archived and searchable
>> really can't be understated, I use it heavily to refresh my memory (along
>> with svn history) about anything and everything OFBiz related.
>>
>> If the HipChat logs were stored with the ASF and made public I would 100%
>> be in favor of using it.  Maybe in the future infra can come up with
>> something more suitable.
>>
>> Community days might be a good compromise between the two positions though,
>> we could perhaps even copy/paste the chat logs into confluence for future
>> reference and to benefit those who were unable to attend.
>>
>> Regards
>> Scott
>>
>> On 24 August 2016 at 17:27, Ashish Vijaywargiya <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hipchat is a wonderful software. I think opening it for community day can
>>> be a good step but I would refrain to open it on the daily basis. Thanks!
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kind Regards
>>> Ashish Vijaywargiya
>>> HotWax Systems - est. 1997
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Sharan Foga <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi All
>>>>
>>>> A few weeks ago, in response to the results of the Committer Survey, I
>>>> setup a trial Hipchat environment to help with Committer Mentoring.
>> (See
>>>> links to the previous discussion threads below:)
>>>>
>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8b8738c3adcb1b7aafd7c90f9b1cbb
>>>> 54500578d8cd392c3b18d635b9@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>>>>
>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b64aad3bbaca967cf432adfd62ce6
>>>> 8901c95218a8aa59d706aed6bc@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>>>>
>>>> I really liked the HipChat environment and think that it's a great
>>>> collaborative tool that also helps build community spirit. So now I'd
>>> like
>>>> to get some feedback :-)
>>>>
>>>> First of all I'd like to hear from the committers and mentors who
>>>> participated to find out what they thought of the HipChat environment,
>>> what
>>>> their general comments are and whether they would like it to be made
>>>> available on a permanent basis.
>>>>
>>>> Secondly I'd like to get some general feedback from everyone to find
>> out
>>>> if the whole community would also be interested in participating in
>>> HipChat
>>>> environment (e.g. for collaborating on Jiras, or during our Community
>>>> Days). Other ASF projects have HipChat spaces setup and publish a link
>>> that
>>>> anyone can use to join and we could do the same.
>>>>
>>>> The mailing list would still be used for discussions and decisions but
>> if
>>>> people are working together on a particular task then this could be a
>>> good
>>>> way to speed up the process.  I'm thinking particularly about things
>> like
>>>> the re-factoring and our Jira backlog where bringing together the
>>> reporter
>>>> and the developer could make things move a lot more quickly!)
>>>>
>>>> We have another Community Day coming up in a few weeks on 17th
>> September
>>>> so it could be a good chance to see how it could work in action. What
>> do
>>>> people think?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Sharan
>>>>

[Sharan-F]

Hi All

All good points Taher- thanks for detailing them in a clear way.

I don't think HipChat should be a restricted to be opened on certain
occasions - it is a tool, so should be available whenever anyone wants
to use it. Not everyone can collaborate only on our Community Days.

I really think that the history capability of HipChat should not be a
key focus - why? Because as already stated many times in this thread -
if it didn't happen on the mailing then it didn't happen. I see that the
fact that the HipChat history is not kept long term is a good thing
because it reinforces the use of the mailing lists for all the important
discussions and decisions. ThIs will also make it clear that the one
source of truth and the place to search for anything history related is
the mailing lists (not the HipChat, or wiki comments or anything - it is
our mailing lists).

Thanks
Sharan


On 24/08/16 09:48, Jacques Le Roux wrote:

> I agree Taher, from so far feedbacks it seems it more the manner to
> use it which needs to be addressed. What about "opening it" only for
>
> 1. together working days
>
> 2. when we agree about quickly exchanging on a subject previously
> roughly explained on dev ML
>
> By "opening it" I mean we would have a chat channel always ready but
> we would use only in these (and possibly others) occasions. Having
> history always available is still a must, better if it's automated.
>
> Jacques
>
>
> Le 24/08/2016 à 09:28, Taher Alkhateeb a écrit :
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> To put some context into this discussion please note the reason why we
>> started hipchat in the first place is because of communication barriers.
>>
>> As we started the refactoring project many people were overwhelmed
>> with the
>> complexity of some of the tasks, and people needed to discuss things and
>> explore and brainstorm. In that respect the mailing list proved to be an
>> inefficient communication tool. Here are some reasons:
>>
>> - You need more energy and time to compose your thoughts and say
>> something
>> of value in the mailing list.
>>
>> - It might be intimidating for some individuals to ask very basic
>> questions
>> or irrelevant topics in the mailing list where everybody's reading.
>> People
>> usually restrain themselves in the mailing list which is the correct
>> thing
>> to do. We should not to litter it with a lot of useless information.
>>
>> - brainstorming is hard on the mailing list because you are exploring an
>> area that you're not confident in and you need instant feedback and back
>> and forth exchange to come up with something of value.
>>
>> - How about mentoring and pair programming? Can you do that in the
>> mailing
>> list or in the JIRAs? Probably not, or at least not well.
>>
>> - People get to know each other more closely which add to the harmony of
>> the project. I made good friends and learned that we have wonderful
>> people
>> in the community. The exchange to build this kind of rapport might
>> not be
>> suitable in the mailing list.
>>
>> So to summarize the mailing list is absolutely important and it is the
>> basis for all decisions. But we DO have a gap in communication that I
>> think
>> instant messaging applications like hipchat can fill.
>>
>> Taher Alkhateeb
>>
>> On Aug 24, 2016 8:50 AM, "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm in two minds about it.
>>>
>>> On one hand it's nice to be able to chat in real time with other
>>> community
>>> members and increasing our sense of community is important for the
>>> project.
>>>
>>> But on the other hand, I fear it would too often be used to have
>>> discussions that should really be had on the user/dev lists. The
>>> benefits
>>> of our discussions on these email lists being archived and searchable
>>> really can't be understated, I use it heavily to refresh my memory
>>> (along
>>> with svn history) about anything and everything OFBiz related.
>>>
>>> If the HipChat logs were stored with the ASF and made public I would
>>> 100%
>>> be in favor of using it.  Maybe in the future infra can come up with
>>> something more suitable.
>>>
>>> Community days might be a good compromise between the two positions
>>> though,
>>> we could perhaps even copy/paste the chat logs into confluence for
>>> future
>>> reference and to benefit those who were unable to attend.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> On 24 August 2016 at 17:27, Ashish Vijaywargiya <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hipchat is a wonderful software. I think opening it for community
>>>> day can
>>>> be a good step but I would refrain to open it on the daily basis.
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kind Regards
>>>> Ashish Vijaywargiya
>>>> HotWax Systems - est. 1997
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Sharan Foga <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All
>>>>>
>>>>> A few weeks ago, in response to the results of the Committer
>>>>> Survey, I
>>>>> setup a trial Hipchat environment to help with Committer Mentoring.
>>> (See
>>>>> links to the previous discussion threads below:)
>>>>>
>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8b8738c3adcb1b7aafd7c90f9b1cbb
>>>>> 54500578d8cd392c3b18d635b9@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>>>>>
>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b64aad3bbaca967cf432adfd62ce6
>>>>> 8901c95218a8aa59d706aed6bc@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>>>>>
>>>>> I really liked the HipChat environment and think that it's a great
>>>>> collaborative tool that also helps build community spirit. So now I'd
>>>> like
>>>>> to get some feedback :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> First of all I'd like to hear from the committers and mentors who
>>>>> participated to find out what they thought of the HipChat
>>>>> environment,
>>>> what
>>>>> their general comments are and whether they would like it to be made
>>>>> available on a permanent basis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Secondly I'd like to get some general feedback from everyone to find
>>> out
>>>>> if the whole community would also be interested in participating in
>>>> HipChat
>>>>> environment (e.g. for collaborating on Jiras, or during our Community
>>>>> Days). Other ASF projects have HipChat spaces setup and publish a
>>>>> link
>>>> that
>>>>> anyone can use to join and we could do the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> The mailing list would still be used for discussions and decisions
>>>>> but
>>> if
>>>>> people are working together on a particular task then this could be a
>>>> good
>>>>> way to speed up the process.  I'm thinking particularly about things
>>> like
>>>>> the re-factoring and our Jira backlog where bringing together the
>>>> reporter
>>>>> and the developer could make things move a lot more quickly!)
>>>>>
>>>>> We have another Community Day coming up in a few weeks on 17th
>>> September
>>>>> so it could be a good chance to see how it could work in action. What
>>> do
>>>>> people think?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Sharan
>>>>>
>

[Sharan-F]

Hi Everyone

Thanks very much for all the feedback. I think consensus is showing that the community would like to continue to use the HipChat tool.

So for next steps I will

1) Request Infra to setup an OFBiz HipChat room with a guest access link so that anyone can join the room
2) Send out invitations to the committers to join the room so that it can be used for mentoring

This gives flexibility so that anyone from the community can use the room for collaboration, mentoring or just to generally hang out.

Once the room is setup I will publish the guest link on the wiki and also post an email on the user mailing list to let our users know about the room as they too may want to collaborate on Jiras.

We have another Community Day coming up on 17th September so let's see how the HipChat works for that.

Thanks
Sharan


On 2016-08-22 10:42 (+0200), "Sharan Foga"<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi All
>
> A few weeks ago, in response to the results of the Committer Survey, I setup a trial Hipchat environment to help with Committer Mentoring.  (See links to the previous discussion threads below:)
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8b8738c3adcb1b7aafd7c90f9b1cbb54500578d8cd392c3b18d635b9@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b64aad3bbaca967cf432adfd62ce68901c95218a8aa59d706aed6bc@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>
> I really liked the HipChat environment and think that it's a great collaborative tool that also helps build community spirit. So now I'd like to get some feedback :-)
>
> First of all I'd like to hear from the committers and mentors who participated to find out what they thought of the HipChat environment, what their general comments are and whether they would like it to be made available on a permanent basis.  
>
> Secondly I'd like to get some general feedback from everyone to find out if the whole community would also be interested in participating in HipChat environment (e.g. for collaborating on Jiras, or during our Community Days). Other ASF projects have HipChat spaces setup and publish a link that anyone can use to join and we could do the same.
>
> The mailing list would still be used for discussions and decisions but if people are working together on a particular task then this could be a good way to speed up the process.  I'm thinking particularly about things like the re-factoring and our Jira backlog where bringing together the reporter and the developer could make things move a lot more quickly!)
>
> We have another Community Day coming up in a few weeks on 17th September so it could be a good chance to see how it could work in action. What do people think?
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>