[MARKETING] OFBiz New Website Structure Proposals – Feedback Required

[Sharan-F]

Hi Everyone

Thanks for your additional feedback and I also agree with a lot of the comments made. By trying to incorporate all the previous feedback I think I've made the structure more complicated than it needs to be.

I will update the latest proposed version with this feedback and hopefully streamline it again.

Thanks
Sharan

[FGomez]

Après le deuxième révision des commentaires  (et dieu sait qu'il y en
a...et en aura...) - le plan proposé est correct pour finaliser le site
-- de plus chapeau pour son bon travail.
Je suis en accord avec les commentaires de Taher...  de plus le site
devra etre dynamique afin de permettre d'apporter des changements dans
le futur (avec ou sans l'aide du CMS de ofbiz..).

En terminant, la valeur du contenu devrait permettre une adoption plus
rapide (facile) du produit vs la compétition. En d'autres mots l'accès
rapide aux documentation/video/guide ...


Salutations
Fernando

Le 2015-09-17 02:21, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :

> Hi
>
> Le 16/09/2015 17:16, FGomez a écrit :
>> Sharan,
>>
>> Your 2nd review with feedbacks (and there were many with such great
>> community) is fine to get something done along the great work you do.
>> I am in line with Taher suggestions of the top layout - hence the
>> site will be dynamic to adapt to future changes and suggestions.
>>
>> Moreover, the content value shall be clearly exposed to allow the
>> target audience to get a RAPID graps of the OOTB solution vs others
>> alternative.
>
> Could you elaborate on that? Sorry it's not clear to me :)
>
> Thanks
>
> Jacques
>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Fernando
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 2015-09-16 05:40, Taher Alkhateeb a écrit :
>>> Hi Sharan,
>>>
>>> I looked at the structure and have the following suggestions /
>>> comments:
>>>
>>> - on a second review, we have too many sub-menus. This can be
>>> overwhelming to people navigating the website. Instead, you might
>>> take the content of the sub-menus and sprinkle it around the pages
>>> - I suggest removing partners and making it part of the community
>>> menu. It does not add a lot of value to make it a top level menu item.
>>> - I would suggest reordering the menus to be -> getting started,
>>> news, solutions, documentation, community, customers
>>> - perhaps we can drop all menu items under solutions, and make that
>>> part of the text and layout of the page
>>>
>>> These are my thoughts for now. HTH
>>>
>>> Taher Alkhateeb
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]>
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, 16 September, 2015 3:14:40 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [MARKETING] OFBiz New Website Structure Proposals –
>>> Feedback Required
>>>
>>> Hi Everyone
>>>
>>> I’m still looking for some feedback on the revised website structure
>>> proposal.
>>>
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/New+Website+Structure+Based+on+Combined+Feedback 
>>>
>>>
>>> I was hoping to get some feedback in time to see if we could start
>>> doing
>>> some work on the Website update for the Community Day on Saturday.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Sharan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>

[Nicolas Malin-2]

Hi Fernando, maybe you forget to send your message on english language ?
Can you translate it for all community members ;)

[French] Sur le coup je me suis dis je suis tellement creuver que je lis
l'anglais comme le français ... mais non en 4ème relecture c'est bien en
français ;) [/french]

Nicolas

Le 17/09/2015 23:56, FGomez a écrit :

>
>
> Après le deuxième révision des commentaires  (et dieu sait qu'il y en
> a...et en aura...) - le plan proposé est correct pour finaliser le
> site -- de plus chapeau pour son bon travail.
> Je suis en accord avec les commentaires de Taher...  de plus le site
> devra etre dynamique afin de permettre d'apporter des changements dans
> le futur (avec ou sans l'aide du CMS de ofbiz..).
>
> En terminant, la valeur du contenu devrait permettre une adoption plus
> rapide (facile) du produit vs la compétition. En d'autres mots l'accès
> rapide aux documentation/video/guide ...
>
>
> Salutations
> Fernando
>
> Le 2015-09-17 02:21, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :
>> Hi
>>
>> Le 16/09/2015 17:16, FGomez a écrit :
>>> Sharan,
>>>
>>> Your 2nd review with feedbacks (and there were many with such great
>>> community) is fine to get something done along the great work you do.
>>> I am in line with Taher suggestions of the top layout - hence the
>>> site will be dynamic to adapt to future changes and suggestions.
>>>
>>> Moreover, the content value shall be clearly exposed to allow the
>>> target audience to get a RAPID graps of the OOTB solution vs others
>>> alternative.
>>
>> Could you elaborate on that? Sorry it's not clear to me :)
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Fernando
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 2015-09-16 05:40, Taher Alkhateeb a écrit :
>>>> Hi Sharan,
>>>>
>>>> I looked at the structure and have the following suggestions /
>>>> comments:
>>>>
>>>> - on a second review, we have too many sub-menus. This can be
>>>> overwhelming to people navigating the website. Instead, you might
>>>> take the content of the sub-menus and sprinkle it around the pages
>>>> - I suggest removing partners and making it part of the community
>>>> menu. It does not add a lot of value to make it a top level menu item.
>>>> - I would suggest reordering the menus to be -> getting started,
>>>> news, solutions, documentation, community, customers
>>>> - perhaps we can drop all menu items under solutions, and make that
>>>> part of the text and layout of the page
>>>>
>>>> These are my thoughts for now. HTH
>>>>
>>>> Taher Alkhateeb
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]>
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 16 September, 2015 3:14:40 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [MARKETING] OFBiz New Website Structure Proposals –
>>>> Feedback Required
>>>>
>>>> Hi Everyone
>>>>
>>>> I’m still looking for some feedback on the revised website structure
>>>> proposal.
>>>>
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/New+Website+Structure+Based+on+Combined+Feedback 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I was hoping to get some feedback in time to see if we could start
>>>> doing
>>>> some work on the Website update for the Community Day on Saturday.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Sharan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Le 18/09/2015 08:44, Nicolas Malin a écrit :
> [French] Sur le coup je me suis dis je suis tellement creuver que je lis l'anglais comme le français ... mais non en 4ème relecture c'est bien en
> français ;) [/french]
>
> Nicolas

:D

Jacques

[Jacques Le Roux]

OK, merci Fernando :)

Jacques


Le 17/09/2015 23:56, FGomez a écrit :

>
>
> Après le deuxième révision des commentaires  (et dieu sait qu'il y en a...et en aura...) - le plan proposé est correct pour finaliser le site -- de
> plus chapeau pour son bon travail.
> Je suis en accord avec les commentaires de Taher...  de plus le site devra etre dynamique afin de permettre d'apporter des changements dans le futur
> (avec ou sans l'aide du CMS de ofbiz..).
>
> En terminant, la valeur du contenu devrait permettre une adoption plus rapide (facile) du produit vs la compétition. En d'autres mots l'accès rapide
> aux documentation/video/guide ...
>
>
> Salutations
> Fernando
>
> Le 2015-09-17 02:21, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :
>> Hi
>>
>> Le 16/09/2015 17:16, FGomez a écrit :
>>> Sharan,
>>>
>>> Your 2nd review with feedbacks (and there were many with such great community) is fine to get something done along the great work you do.
>>> I am in line with Taher suggestions of the top layout - hence the site will be dynamic to adapt to future changes and suggestions.
>>>
>>> Moreover, the content value shall be clearly exposed to allow the target audience to get a RAPID graps of the OOTB solution vs others alternative.
>>
>> Could you elaborate on that? Sorry it's not clear to me :)
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Fernando
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 2015-09-16 05:40, Taher Alkhateeb a écrit :
>>>> Hi Sharan,
>>>>
>>>> I looked at the structure and have the following suggestions / comments:
>>>>
>>>> - on a second review, we have too many sub-menus. This can be overwhelming to people navigating the website. Instead, you might take the content
>>>> of the sub-menus and sprinkle it around the pages
>>>> - I suggest removing partners and making it part of the community menu. It does not add a lot of value to make it a top level menu item.
>>>> - I would suggest reordering the menus to be -> getting started, news, solutions, documentation, community, customers
>>>> - perhaps we can drop all menu items under solutions, and make that part of the text and layout of the page
>>>>
>>>> These are my thoughts for now. HTH
>>>>
>>>> Taher Alkhateeb
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]>
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 16 September, 2015 3:14:40 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [MARKETING] OFBiz New Website Structure Proposals – Feedback Required
>>>>
>>>> Hi Everyone
>>>>
>>>> I’m still looking for some feedback on the revised website structure
>>>> proposal.
>>>>
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/New+Website+Structure+Based+on+Combined+Feedback
>>>>
>>>> I was hoping to get some feedback in time to see if we could start doing
>>>> some work on the Website update for the Community Day on Saturday.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Sharan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

[Michael Brohl-3]

+1

:-)

Michael Brohl
ecomify GmbH
www.ecomify.de

Am 17.09.15 um 08:37 schrieb Jacques Le Roux:

> Le 17/09/2015 08:33, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :
>> Thanks for the great effort Sharan.
>>
>> I think we should find better terms for "Customers" and "Patrners":
>> theese two don't apply well to an open source project and community
>> and are more suited for a company site.
>
> Users and Service Providers as we already use for "decades ;)" ?
>
> Jacques

[Sharan-F]

Hi Everyone

This is my latest update for the proposed website structure. I’ve removed the second level menus and added notes about included specific links.

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Revised+Website+Structure+v2

I’ve adjusted the menu sequence based on feedback from Taher and others, and also completely removed ‘Solutions’ as a menu option since we can incorporate this within the home page itself.

I hope that this latest revision will be acceptable to the community and we can start working towards reaching a consensus. As usual please let me have your comments and feedback.

Thanks
Sharan

[Pierre Smits]

Hi Sharan,

It is looking good. But if I may suggest the following:

   - Download of the latest stable release should be on the front-page,
   because that is one of the main Items we want (potential) users to use.
   With a link directly below/beside that where other downloads can be found.

What is the intended difference between the 'modules & Features' block and
the Solutions block? It seems both are related, no?

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

*OFBiz Extensions Marketplace*
http://oem.ofbizci.net

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Sharan-F <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Everyone
>
> This is my latest update for the proposed website structure. I’ve removed
> the second level menus and added notes about included specific links.
>
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Revised+Website+Structure+v2
>
> I’ve adjusted the menu sequence based on feedback from Taher and others,
> and
> also completely removed ‘Solutions’ as a menu option since we can
> incorporate this within the home page itself.
>
> I hope that this latest revision will be acceptable to the community and we
> can start working towards reaching a consensus. As usual please let me have
> your comments and feedback.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/MARKETING-OFBiz-New-Website-Structure-Proposals-Feedback-Required-tp4671926p4672228.html
> Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

[taher]

Hi Sharan,

Thank you again for the excellent work, the structure keeps getting better and better. I have a few more suggestions that are "nice to have":

- I think it would still be better to remove or reduce the menu items such as those in news and users and make that part of the page design and here is why:
- I think twitter feeds do not warrant their own full page. and I also don't see a lot of difference between blog and press.
- you can create either a filter, a header, or a table to show users by industry and even other categories inside the page.
- A lot of websites put lots of links into the footer area for lesser used links and as a form of secondary navigation. So we do not need to have everything that exists in the main menu necessarily.

so overall I would suggest that we always follow a "less is more" philosophy and make new menu items where it is necessary and makes sense.

With that being said, great job and I don't see a problem with going with this design immediately even without applying the above.

Cheers,

Taher Alkhateeb

----- Original Message -----

From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, 19 September, 2015 5:49:32 AM
Subject: Re: [MARKETING] OFBiz New Website Structure Proposals – Feedback Required

Hi Everyone

This is my latest update for the proposed website structure. I’ve removed
the second level menus and added notes about included specific links.

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Revised+Website+Structure+v2 

I’ve adjusted the menu sequence based on feedback from Taher and others, and
also completely removed ‘Solutions’ as a menu option since we can
incorporate this within the home page itself.

I hope that this latest revision will be acceptable to the community and we
can start working towards reaching a consensus. As usual please let me have
your comments and feedback.

Thanks
Sharan




--
View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/MARKETING-OFBiz-New-Website-Structure-Proposals-Feedback-Required-tp4671926p4672228.html 
Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Todd Thorner]

That's looking great, Sharan, thanks for the effort.

Does anyone like the idea of having one of those slideshow things as a
page header (right beneath the menu), sliding between images which
showcase the various items from the Solutions group?  I'm rather behind
the site development curve, so I don't know how far into the
architecture phase things are (e.g. Bootstrap or something similar?).

I agree that the Download option should be prominent, but also leave it
in its current menu position.  Offering surfers multiple ways to access
the download page is a good thing.

If you want to cram a ton of additional links into the footer (as per
Taher's latest suggestion), consider a drop-up menu which reflects the
functionality (if not the content) of the main menu.



On 15-09-19 02:49 AM, Sharan-F wrote:

> Hi Everyone
>
> This is my latest update for the proposed website structure. I’ve removed
> the second level menus and added notes about included specific links.
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Revised+Website+Structure+v2
>
> I’ve adjusted the menu sequence based on feedback from Taher and others, and
> also completely removed ‘Solutions’ as a menu option since we can
> incorporate this within the home page itself.
>
> I hope that this latest revision will be acceptable to the community and we
> can start working towards reaching a consensus. As usual please let me have
> your comments and feedback.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/MARKETING-OFBiz-New-Website-Structure-Proposals-Feedback-Required-tp4671926p4672228.html
> Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

[Ron Wheeler]

I am not sure that I see any advantage in dropdown menus in the footer.
Once you have reached the bottom of the page on a web site it is pretty
simple to scroll  down further to see more links.
You are in an area of unlimited length and I think that most sites just
put some frequently referenced links there to save people the
inconvenience of navigating the main menu through it's dropdown links.

Ron


On 19/09/2015 10:32 AM, Todd Thorner wrote:

> That's looking great, Sharan, thanks for the effort.
>
> Does anyone like the idea of having one of those slideshow things as a
> page header (right beneath the menu), sliding between images which
> showcase the various items from the Solutions group?  I'm rather behind
> the site development curve, so I don't know how far into the
> architecture phase things are (e.g. Bootstrap or something similar?).
>
> I agree that the Download option should be prominent, but also leave it
> in its current menu position.  Offering surfers multiple ways to access
> the download page is a good thing.
>
> If you want to cram a ton of additional links into the footer (as per
> Taher's latest suggestion), consider a drop-up menu which reflects the
> functionality (if not the content) of the main menu.
>
>
>
> On 15-09-19 02:49 AM, Sharan-F wrote:
>> Hi Everyone
>>
>> This is my latest update for the proposed website structure. I’ve removed
>> the second level menus and added notes about included specific links.
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Revised+Website+Structure+v2
>>
>> I’ve adjusted the menu sequence based on feedback from Taher and others, and
>> also completely removed ‘Solutions’ as a menu option since we can
>> incorporate this within the home page itself.
>>
>> I hope that this latest revision will be acceptable to the community and we
>> can start working towards reaching a consensus. As usual please let me have
>> your comments and feedback.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Sharan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/MARKETING-OFBiz-New-Website-Structure-Proposals-Feedback-Required-tp4671926p4672228.html
>> Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>

--
Ron Wheeler
President
Artifact Software Inc
email: [hidden email]
skype: ronaldmwheeler
phone: [phone], ext 102

[Ron Wheeler]

+1
On 19/09/2015 8:09 AM, Taher Alkhateeb wrote:

> Hi Sharan,
>
> Thank you again for the excellent work, the structure keeps getting better and better. I have a few more suggestions that are "nice to have":
>
> - I think it would still be better to remove or reduce the menu items such as those in news and users and make that part of the page design and here is why:
> - I think twitter feeds do not warrant their own full page. and I also don't see a lot of difference between blog and press.
> - you can create either a filter, a header, or a table to show users by industry and even other categories inside the page.
> - A lot of websites put lots of links into the footer area for lesser used links and as a form of secondary navigation. So we do not need to have everything that exists in the main menu necessarily.
>
> so overall I would suggest that we always follow a "less is more" philosophy and make new menu items where it is necessary and makes sense.
>
> With that being said, great job and I don't see a problem with going with this design immediately even without applying the above.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Taher Alkhateeb
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Saturday, 19 September, 2015 5:49:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [MARKETING] OFBiz New Website Structure Proposals – Feedback Required
>
> Hi Everyone
>
> This is my latest update for the proposed website structure. I’ve removed
> the second level menus and added notes about included specific links.
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Revised+Website+Structure+v2
>
> I’ve adjusted the menu sequence based on feedback from Taher and others, and
> also completely removed ‘Solutions’ as a menu option since we can
> incorporate this within the home page itself.
>
> I hope that this latest revision will be acceptable to the community and we
> can start working towards reaching a consensus. As usual please let me have
> your comments and feedback.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>
>
>

--
Ron Wheeler
President
Artifact Software Inc
email: [hidden email]
skype: ronaldmwheeler
phone: [phone], ext 102

[Jacques Le Roux]

Thanks Sharan!

I think we should now define the content of the main page. Then when the implementation will be done, I'm sure we will have to again change things
here and there but that's quite a good start

Jacques

Le 19/09/2015 11:49, Sharan-F a écrit :

> Hi Everyone
>
> This is my latest update for the proposed website structure. I’ve removed
> the second level menus and added notes about included specific links.
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Revised+Website+Structure+v2
>
> I’ve adjusted the menu sequence based on feedback from Taher and others, and
> also completely removed ‘Solutions’ as a menu option since we can
> incorporate this within the home page itself.
>
> I hope that this latest revision will be acceptable to the community and we
> can start working towards reaching a consensus. As usual please let me have
> your comments and feedback.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/MARKETING-OFBiz-New-Website-Structure-Proposals-Feedback-Required-tp4671926p4672228.html
> Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Le 19/09/2015 16:32, Todd Thorner a écrit :
> I agree that the Download option should be prominent, but also leave it
> in its current menu position.  Offering surfers multiple ways to access
> the download page is a good thing.
+1

Jacques

[Jacques Le Roux]

+1

Jacques

Le 20/09/2015 04:46, Ron Wheeler a écrit :

> +1
> On 19/09/2015 8:09 AM, Taher Alkhateeb wrote:
>> Hi Sharan,
>>
>> Thank you again for the excellent work, the structure keeps getting better and better. I have a few more suggestions that are "nice to have":
>>
>> - I think it would still be better to remove or reduce the menu items such as those in news and users and make that part of the page design and
>> here is why:
>> - I think twitter feeds do not warrant their own full page. and I also don't see a lot of difference between blog and press.
>> - you can create either a filter, a header, or a table to show users by industry and even other categories inside the page.
>> - A lot of websites put lots of links into the footer area for lesser used links and as a form of secondary navigation. So we do not need to have
>> everything that exists in the main menu necessarily.
>>
>> so overall I would suggest that we always follow a "less is more" philosophy and make new menu items where it is necessary and makes sense.
>>
>> With that being said, great job and I don't see a problem with going with this design immediately even without applying the above.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Taher Alkhateeb
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: "Sharan-F" <[hidden email]>
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Sent: Saturday, 19 September, 2015 5:49:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MARKETING] OFBiz New Website Structure Proposals – Feedback Required
>>
>> Hi Everyone
>>
>> This is my latest update for the proposed website structure. I’ve removed
>> the second level menus and added notes about included specific links.
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Revised+Website+Structure+v2
>>
>> I’ve adjusted the menu sequence based on feedback from Taher and others, and
>> also completely removed ‘Solutions’ as a menu option since we can
>> incorporate this within the home page itself.
>>
>> I hope that this latest revision will be acceptable to the community and we
>> can start working towards reaching a consensus. As usual please let me have
>> your comments and feedback.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Sharan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Sharan-F]

Hi Pierre

Thanks for the feedback.  

I was thinking that modules could be individual the manager applications themselves with their related features (e.g. Party Manager).

I see the solutions part as how one or more applications could be used together to create an integrated  solution around particular business flows. I would expect some cross linking between the two so we just need to see how it could work.

Thanks
Sharan

[Sharan-F]

Hi All

Thanks very for your positive feedback on the work done so far.

I think it’s time for us to move on to the next step which involves using this structure to put together a proposed design for the main page and site.

The team working on this at the moment will be myself, Taher and Fernando. We may end up with several variations but I think once we have something visible to show the community, it will be easier for people to see what it could look like and understand how it could work.  

We will be sharing any proposed design (or designs) with the community for feedback and comments so please watch out for our progress updates.

Thanks
Sharan

[Jacques Le Roux]

That's great, looking forward :)

Jacques

Le 22/09/2015 10:12, Sharan-F a écrit :

> Hi All
>
> Thanks very for your positive feedback on the work done so far.
>
> I think it’s time for us to move on to the next step which involves using
> this structure to put together a proposed design for the main page and site.
>
> The team working on this at the moment will be myself, Taher and Fernando.
> We may end up with several variations but I think once we have something
> visible to show the community, it will be easier for people to see what it
> could look like and understand how it could work.
>
> We will be sharing any proposed design (or designs) with the community for
> feedback and comments so please watch out for our progress updates.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/MARKETING-OFBiz-New-Website-Structure-Proposals-Feedback-Required-tp4671926p4672605.html
> Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>