OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
 
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Hi All,
In September 2007 the PMC Chair of our project reported to the board of the ASF the following numbers regarding subscription to the projects mailing lists: - user@ofbiz: 515 - dev@ofbiz: 380 - commits@offbiz: 100 In March of 2010 the PMC Chair reported the following numbers: - user@ofbiz: 718 - dev@ofbiz: 466 - commits:@ofbiz: 218 These numbers show significant increases from 2007 to 2010 across all mailing lists, and indicate that we may have a healthy project. But how are the numbers these days? Are they still rising, or are they on the decline? Regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> wrote: > But how healthy is our project? > > The report doesn't show mutations in user and dev mailing lists (joins and > leaves). For all we can tell, it could be the same few commenting and > contributing over and over? > > Other Apache projects seem to be able to supply insights in this, see e.g. > the CouchDb board report: > https://blogs.apache.org/couchdb/entry/board_report_may_2014 > > The present mailing list stats each quarter. > > Should your project do the same? What do you think? > > Best regards, > > > Pierre Smits > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* > Services & Solutions for Cloud- > Based Manufacturing, Professional > Services and Retail & Trade > http://www.orrtiz.com > > On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> > wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> On September 9th our PMC chair published the latest report on the health >> of the project. Interested in what it looks like? >> Here you can find the document: >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBADMIN/ASF+Board+Report+2014-09 >> >> Best regards, >> >> Pierre Smits >> >> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* >> Services & Solutions for Cloud- >> Based Manufacturing, Professional >> Services and Retail & Trade >> http://www.orrtiz.com >> > > |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
Administrator
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Interesting, sometimes this information could be retrieved indeed, but only by MLs moderators, I guess at least Jacopo
Jacques Le 18/09/2014 09:17, Pierre Smits a écrit : > Hi All, > > In September 2007 the PMC Chair of our project reported to the board of the > ASF the following numbers regarding subscription to the projects mailing > lists: > > - user@ofbiz: 515 > - dev@ofbiz: 380 > - commits@offbiz: 100 > > In March of 2010 the PMC Chair reported the following numbers: > > - user@ofbiz: 718 > - dev@ofbiz: 466 > - commits:@ofbiz: 218 > > These numbers show significant increases from 2007 to 2010 across all > mailing lists, and indicate that we may have a healthy project. > But how are the numbers these days? Are they still rising, or are they on > the decline? > > Regards, > > Pierre Smits > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* > Services & Solutions for Cloud- > Based Manufacturing, Professional > Services and Retail & Trade > http://www.orrtiz.com > > On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> > wrote: > >> But how healthy is our project? >> >> The report doesn't show mutations in user and dev mailing lists (joins and >> leaves). For all we can tell, it could be the same few commenting and >> contributing over and over? >> >> Other Apache projects seem to be able to supply insights in this, see e.g. >> the CouchDb board report: >> https://blogs.apache.org/couchdb/entry/board_report_may_2014 >> >> The present mailing list stats each quarter. >> >> Should your project do the same? What do you think? >> >> Best regards, >> >> >> Pierre Smits >> >> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* >> Services & Solutions for Cloud- >> Based Manufacturing, Professional >> Services and Retail & Trade >> http://www.orrtiz.com >> >> On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> On September 9th our PMC chair published the latest report on the health >>> of the project. Interested in what it looks like? >>> Here you can find the document: >>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBADMIN/ASF+Board+Report+2014-09 >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Pierre Smits >>> >>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* >>> Services & Solutions for Cloud- >>> Based Manufacturing, Professional >>> Services and Retail & Trade >>> http://www.orrtiz.com >>> >> |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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In reply to this post by Pierre Smits
On Sep 18, 2014, at 9:17 AM, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi All, > > In September 2007 the PMC Chair of our project reported to the board of the > ASF the following numbers regarding subscription to the projects mailing > lists: > > - user@ofbiz: 515 > - dev@ofbiz: 380 > - commits@offbiz: 100 > > In March of 2010 the PMC Chair reported the following numbers: > > - user@ofbiz: 718 > - dev@ofbiz: 466 > - commits:@ofbiz: 218 > > These numbers show significant increases from 2007 to 2010 across all > mailing lists, and indicate that we may have a healthy project. > But how are the numbers these days? Are they still rising, or are they on > the decline? Pierre, why are you asking these questions to the user list? Please clarify to the community your motivations and the reasons for your continued attempts to discredit such an healthy project. Your attempts to imply that the project is not healthy (and I apologize if I am mis-interpreting your intentions) are completely baseless and misleading for newcomers. However, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to share with the community a few useful information on this topic. The project is still very healthy from all point of views and even if it has a large and mature codebase there is still a lot of activity going on (and even if it will ever decrease it would not be a bad signal per se). Also, I disagree that the number of subscribers are a good indication of project growth, nor the number of commits or similar. In the past, without the help of the mailing list it was mostly impossible to deploy successfully OFBiz. Now it is possible and easy because the product has matured and we have a good release strategy. There are also several alternative (to the mailing lists) channels to share information about OFBiz (external mail archives, LinkedIn and other social media, stackoverflow): this was not true in the past. One thing didn't change since then: even in 2007 (and before and after) we had people complaining about the health of the project and forecasting obscure future for the project. I am saying that the project is healthy for a number of reasons: * because there are every day new companies/groups/individuals interested in OFBiz, that select OFBiz after comparing it with other open source and legacy products (we have a direct experience of this at HotWax Media, the company I work for, but I am sure that you and others can confirm the same trend) * because the project is still keeping the framework updated (new Tomcat, Freemarker, Log4j, DBCP2, etc...) * because we are improving the framework and applications * because we have now a steady rate of releases (this was not true in 2007 and in 2010): I know of several users that didn't subscribe to the mailing lists but just downloaded OFBiz and, following the documentation, were able to deploy a project. For completeness, here are the stats about mailing list subscriptions at today: user: 892 dev: 545 commits: 255 Now let's all go back to work and to make OFBiz an even better product. Kind regards, Jacopo |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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Thanks Jacopo for your message. It is very helpful.
*One more interesting fact that I wanted add on here:* If we talk about year 2005 or 2006 then around 10-20 companies were there in India who were using OFBiz to provide custom solutions to their customers but now the current count is in between 50-100. This count covers small as well as large size organization. OFBiz is growing very fast in India itself and I am sure growing pretty well in the whole world. Thanks! -- Kind Regards, Ashish Vijaywargiya On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Jacopo Cappellato < [hidden email]> wrote: > > On Sep 18, 2014, at 9:17 AM, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > In September 2007 the PMC Chair of our project reported to the board of > the > > ASF the following numbers regarding subscription to the projects mailing > > lists: > > > > - user@ofbiz: 515 > > - dev@ofbiz: 380 > > - commits@offbiz: 100 > > > > In March of 2010 the PMC Chair reported the following numbers: > > > > - user@ofbiz: 718 > > - dev@ofbiz: 466 > > - commits:@ofbiz: 218 > > > > These numbers show significant increases from 2007 to 2010 across all > > mailing lists, and indicate that we may have a healthy project. > > But how are the numbers these days? Are they still rising, or are they on > > the decline? > > Pierre, why are you asking these questions to the user list? > Please clarify to the community your motivations and the reasons for your > continued attempts to discredit such an healthy project. > > Your attempts to imply that the project is not healthy (and I apologize if > I am mis-interpreting your intentions) are completely baseless and > misleading for newcomers. > > However, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to share with the > community a few useful information on this topic. > > The project is still very healthy from all point of views and even if it > has a large and mature codebase there is still a lot of activity going on > (and even if it will ever decrease it would not be a bad signal per se). > Also, I disagree that the number of subscribers are a good indication of > project growth, nor the number of commits or similar. > In the past, without the help of the mailing list it was mostly impossible > to deploy successfully OFBiz. Now it is possible and easy because the > product has matured and we have a good release strategy. There are also > several alternative (to the mailing lists) channels to share information > about OFBiz (external mail archives, LinkedIn and other social media, > stackoverflow): this was not true in the past. > One thing didn't change since then: even in 2007 (and before and after) we > had people complaining about the health of the project and forecasting > obscure future for the project. > > I am saying that the project is healthy for a number of reasons: > * because there are every day new companies/groups/individuals interested > in OFBiz, that select OFBiz after comparing it with other open source and > legacy products (we have a direct experience of this at HotWax Media, the > company I work for, but I am sure that you and others can confirm the same > trend) > * because the project is still keeping the framework updated (new Tomcat, > Freemarker, Log4j, DBCP2, etc...) > * because we are improving the framework and applications > * because we have now a steady rate of releases (this was not true in 2007 > and in 2010): I know of several users that didn't subscribe to the mailing > lists but just downloaded OFBiz and, following the documentation, were able > to deploy a project. > > For completeness, here are the stats about mailing list subscriptions at > today: > > user: 892 > dev: 545 > commits: 255 > > Now let's all go back to work and to make OFBiz an even better product. > > Kind regards, > > Jacopo |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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Administrator
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In reply to this post by Jacopo Cappellato-3
Thanks Jacopo!
Jacques Le 18/09/2014 10:36, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit : > On Sep 18, 2014, at 9:17 AM, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> In September 2007 the PMC Chair of our project reported to the board of the >> ASF the following numbers regarding subscription to the projects mailing >> lists: >> >> - user@ofbiz: 515 >> - dev@ofbiz: 380 >> - commits@offbiz: 100 >> >> In March of 2010 the PMC Chair reported the following numbers: >> >> - user@ofbiz: 718 >> - dev@ofbiz: 466 >> - commits:@ofbiz: 218 >> >> These numbers show significant increases from 2007 to 2010 across all >> mailing lists, and indicate that we may have a healthy project. >> But how are the numbers these days? Are they still rising, or are they on >> the decline? > Pierre, why are you asking these questions to the user list? > Please clarify to the community your motivations and the reasons for your continued attempts to discredit such an healthy project. > > Your attempts to imply that the project is not healthy (and I apologize if I am mis-interpreting your intentions) are completely baseless and misleading for newcomers. > > However, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to share with the community a few useful information on this topic. > > The project is still very healthy from all point of views and even if it has a large and mature codebase there is still a lot of activity going on (and even if it will ever decrease it would not be a bad signal per se). > Also, I disagree that the number of subscribers are a good indication of project growth, nor the number of commits or similar. > In the past, without the help of the mailing list it was mostly impossible to deploy successfully OFBiz. Now it is possible and easy because the product has matured and we have a good release strategy. There are also several alternative (to the mailing lists) channels to share information about OFBiz (external mail archives, LinkedIn and other social media, stackoverflow): this was not true in the past. > One thing didn't change since then: even in 2007 (and before and after) we had people complaining about the health of the project and forecasting obscure future for the project. > > I am saying that the project is healthy for a number of reasons: > * because there are every day new companies/groups/individuals interested in OFBiz, that select OFBiz after comparing it with other open source and legacy products (we have a direct experience of this at HotWax Media, the company I work for, but I am sure that you and others can confirm the same trend) > * because the project is still keeping the framework updated (new Tomcat, Freemarker, Log4j, DBCP2, etc...) > * because we are improving the framework and applications > * because we have now a steady rate of releases (this was not true in 2007 and in 2010): I know of several users that didn't subscribe to the mailing lists but just downloaded OFBiz and, following the documentation, were able to deploy a project. > > For completeness, here are the stats about mailing list subscriptions at today: > > user: 892 > dev: 545 > commits: 255 > > Now let's all go back to work and to make OFBiz an even better product. > > Kind regards, > > Jacopo > |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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In reply to this post by Jacopo Cappellato-3
Jacopo,
This is the first (and presumably the best) place to ask these kind of questions concerning the entire community of this project. All 892 of them. Or should we (the other kind of community member than you - and those who you regard as your equals - are) resort to back room politics and ask these kind of question by mailing them to the [hidden email] mailing lists? No thanks, I won't accept your apologies, while you continue your attempts to discredit me and portray me as the villain trying to wreck this project whenever you respond to any of my postings in any of the OFBiz mailing lists (and I apologise for using the same kind of single brush stroke tactics, or if I am mis-interpreting your intentions). But I thank you for reporting to the community. Was that so hard? Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 10:36 AM, Jacopo Cappellato < [hidden email]> wrote: > > On Sep 18, 2014, at 9:17 AM, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > In September 2007 the PMC Chair of our project reported to the board of > the > > ASF the following numbers regarding subscription to the projects mailing > > lists: > > > > - user@ofbiz: 515 > > - dev@ofbiz: 380 > > - commits@offbiz: 100 > > > > In March of 2010 the PMC Chair reported the following numbers: > > > > - user@ofbiz: 718 > > - dev@ofbiz: 466 > > - commits:@ofbiz: 218 > > > > These numbers show significant increases from 2007 to 2010 across all > > mailing lists, and indicate that we may have a healthy project. > > But how are the numbers these days? Are they still rising, or are they on > > the decline? > > Pierre, why are you asking these questions to the user list? > Please clarify to the community your motivations and the reasons for your > continued attempts to discredit such an healthy project. > > Your attempts to imply that the project is not healthy (and I apologize if > I am mis-interpreting your intentions) are completely baseless and > misleading for newcomers. > > However, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to share with the > community a few useful information on this topic. > > The project is still very healthy from all point of views and even if it > has a large and mature codebase there is still a lot of activity going on > (and even if it will ever decrease it would not be a bad signal per se). > Also, I disagree that the number of subscribers are a good indication of > project growth, nor the number of commits or similar. > In the past, without the help of the mailing list it was mostly impossible > to deploy successfully OFBiz. Now it is possible and easy because the > product has matured and we have a good release strategy. There are also > several alternative (to the mailing lists) channels to share information > about OFBiz (external mail archives, LinkedIn and other social media, > stackoverflow): this was not true in the past. > One thing didn't change since then: even in 2007 (and before and after) we > had people complaining about the health of the project and forecasting > obscure future for the project. > > I am saying that the project is healthy for a number of reasons: > * because there are every day new companies/groups/individuals interested > in OFBiz, that select OFBiz after comparing it with other open source and > legacy products (we have a direct experience of this at HotWax Media, the > company I work for, but I am sure that you and others can confirm the same > trend) > * because the project is still keeping the framework updated (new Tomcat, > Freemarker, Log4j, DBCP2, etc...) > * because we are improving the framework and applications > * because we have now a steady rate of releases (this was not true in 2007 > and in 2010): I know of several users that didn't subscribe to the mailing > lists but just downloaded OFBiz and, following the documentation, were able > to deploy a project. > > For completeness, here are the stats about mailing list subscriptions at > today: > > user: 892 > dev: 545 > commits: 255 > > Now let's all go back to work and to make OFBiz an even better product. > > Kind regards, > > Jacopo |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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Administrator
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There are enough place for all villains in this ML
Jacques Le 18/09/2014 16:07, Pierre Smits a écrit : > Jacopo, > > This is the first (and presumably the best) place to ask these kind of > questions concerning the entire community of this project. All 892 of them. > > Or should we (the other kind of community member than you - and those who > you regard as your equals - are) resort to back room politics and ask > these kind of question by mailing them to the [hidden email] mailing > lists? > > No thanks, I won't accept your apologies, while you continue your attempts > to discredit me and portray me as the villain trying to wreck this project > whenever you respond to any of my postings in any of the OFBiz mailing > lists (and I apologise for using the same kind of single brush stroke > tactics, or if I am mis-interpreting your intentions). > > But I thank you for reporting to the community. Was that so hard? > > > > Pierre Smits > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* > Services & Solutions for Cloud- > Based Manufacturing, Professional > Services and Retail & Trade > http://www.orrtiz.com > > On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 10:36 AM, Jacopo Cappellato < > [hidden email]> wrote: > >> On Sep 18, 2014, at 9:17 AM, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> In September 2007 the PMC Chair of our project reported to the board of >> the >>> ASF the following numbers regarding subscription to the projects mailing >>> lists: >>> >>> - user@ofbiz: 515 >>> - dev@ofbiz: 380 >>> - commits@offbiz: 100 >>> >>> In March of 2010 the PMC Chair reported the following numbers: >>> >>> - user@ofbiz: 718 >>> - dev@ofbiz: 466 >>> - commits:@ofbiz: 218 >>> >>> These numbers show significant increases from 2007 to 2010 across all >>> mailing lists, and indicate that we may have a healthy project. >>> But how are the numbers these days? Are they still rising, or are they on >>> the decline? >> Pierre, why are you asking these questions to the user list? >> Please clarify to the community your motivations and the reasons for your >> continued attempts to discredit such an healthy project. >> >> Your attempts to imply that the project is not healthy (and I apologize if >> I am mis-interpreting your intentions) are completely baseless and >> misleading for newcomers. >> >> However, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to share with the >> community a few useful information on this topic. >> >> The project is still very healthy from all point of views and even if it >> has a large and mature codebase there is still a lot of activity going on >> (and even if it will ever decrease it would not be a bad signal per se). >> Also, I disagree that the number of subscribers are a good indication of >> project growth, nor the number of commits or similar. >> In the past, without the help of the mailing list it was mostly impossible >> to deploy successfully OFBiz. Now it is possible and easy because the >> product has matured and we have a good release strategy. There are also >> several alternative (to the mailing lists) channels to share information >> about OFBiz (external mail archives, LinkedIn and other social media, >> stackoverflow): this was not true in the past. >> One thing didn't change since then: even in 2007 (and before and after) we >> had people complaining about the health of the project and forecasting >> obscure future for the project. >> >> I am saying that the project is healthy for a number of reasons: >> * because there are every day new companies/groups/individuals interested >> in OFBiz, that select OFBiz after comparing it with other open source and >> legacy products (we have a direct experience of this at HotWax Media, the >> company I work for, but I am sure that you and others can confirm the same >> trend) >> * because the project is still keeping the framework updated (new Tomcat, >> Freemarker, Log4j, DBCP2, etc...) >> * because we are improving the framework and applications >> * because we have now a steady rate of releases (this was not true in 2007 >> and in 2010): I know of several users that didn't subscribe to the mailing >> lists but just downloaded OFBiz and, following the documentation, were able >> to deploy a project. >> >> For completeness, here are the stats about mailing list subscriptions at >> today: >> >> user: 892 >> dev: 545 >> commits: 255 >> >> Now let's all go back to work and to make OFBiz an even better product. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Jacopo |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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In reply to this post by Pierre Smits
On Sep 18, 2014, at 4:07 PM, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is the first (and presumably the best) place to ask these kind of > questions concerning the entire community of this project. The users of the list don't have access to the number of subscriptions, this is why I was wondering why you asked them the question. The number of subscribers is not secret, nor confidential: it is an information that can be easily retrieved by the moderators, like me, and in fact I was happy to share this information with the community. Given the topic of this thread, I would like to say thank you to the whole community of users, to all the (past and present) committers and PMC members for the amazing job we have done so far and we are doing every day. A lot of work is still required to make the OFBiz product even better than it is today but it is an exciting challenge that we will win together. Kind regards, Jacopo |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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In reply to this post by Pierre Smits
I guess it's the strange way that you word some of your emails.
Instead of directing the question to someone who could answer it, the mailing list moderators, you directed your question to the community at large. Doing so can give the impression that there is something wrong with the health of the project that needs to be discussed. I don't think Jacopo was criticising your use of the user list, but rather the way you worded your question in such an ambiguous manner. Given some of your past attempts to stir controversy in the community I'm not surprised he interpreted your email in a negative light. Meritocracy can work against you at times when community members perceive your past actions in a negative way. Regards Scott On 19/09/2014, at 2:07 am, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> wrote: > Jacopo, > > This is the first (and presumably the best) place to ask these kind of > questions concerning the entire community of this project. All 892 of them. > > Or should we (the other kind of community member than you - and those who > you regard as your equals - are) resort to back room politics and ask > these kind of question by mailing them to the [hidden email] mailing > lists? > > No thanks, I won't accept your apologies, while you continue your attempts > to discredit me and portray me as the villain trying to wreck this project > whenever you respond to any of my postings in any of the OFBiz mailing > lists (and I apologise for using the same kind of single brush stroke > tactics, or if I am mis-interpreting your intentions). > > But I thank you for reporting to the community. Was that so hard? > > > > Pierre Smits > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* > Services & Solutions for Cloud- > Based Manufacturing, Professional > Services and Retail & Trade > http://www.orrtiz.com > > On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 10:36 AM, Jacopo Cappellato < > [hidden email]> wrote: > >> >> On Sep 18, 2014, at 9:17 AM, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> In September 2007 the PMC Chair of our project reported to the board of >> the >>> ASF the following numbers regarding subscription to the projects mailing >>> lists: >>> >>> - user@ofbiz: 515 >>> - dev@ofbiz: 380 >>> - commits@offbiz: 100 >>> >>> In March of 2010 the PMC Chair reported the following numbers: >>> >>> - user@ofbiz: 718 >>> - dev@ofbiz: 466 >>> - commits:@ofbiz: 218 >>> >>> These numbers show significant increases from 2007 to 2010 across all >>> mailing lists, and indicate that we may have a healthy project. >>> But how are the numbers these days? Are they still rising, or are they on >>> the decline? >> >> Pierre, why are you asking these questions to the user list? >> Please clarify to the community your motivations and the reasons for your >> continued attempts to discredit such an healthy project. >> >> Your attempts to imply that the project is not healthy (and I apologize if >> I am mis-interpreting your intentions) are completely baseless and >> misleading for newcomers. >> >> However, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to share with the >> community a few useful information on this topic. >> >> The project is still very healthy from all point of views and even if it >> has a large and mature codebase there is still a lot of activity going on >> (and even if it will ever decrease it would not be a bad signal per se). >> Also, I disagree that the number of subscribers are a good indication of >> project growth, nor the number of commits or similar. >> In the past, without the help of the mailing list it was mostly impossible >> to deploy successfully OFBiz. Now it is possible and easy because the >> product has matured and we have a good release strategy. There are also >> several alternative (to the mailing lists) channels to share information >> about OFBiz (external mail archives, LinkedIn and other social media, >> stackoverflow): this was not true in the past. >> One thing didn't change since then: even in 2007 (and before and after) we >> had people complaining about the health of the project and forecasting >> obscure future for the project. >> >> I am saying that the project is healthy for a number of reasons: >> * because there are every day new companies/groups/individuals interested >> in OFBiz, that select OFBiz after comparing it with other open source and >> legacy products (we have a direct experience of this at HotWax Media, the >> company I work for, but I am sure that you and others can confirm the same >> trend) >> * because the project is still keeping the framework updated (new Tomcat, >> Freemarker, Log4j, DBCP2, etc...) >> * because we are improving the framework and applications >> * because we have now a steady rate of releases (this was not true in 2007 >> and in 2010): I know of several users that didn't subscribe to the mailing >> lists but just downloaded OFBiz and, following the documentation, were able >> to deploy a project. >> >> For completeness, here are the stats about mailing list subscriptions at >> today: >> >> user: 892 >> dev: 545 >> commits: 255 >> >> Now let's all go back to work and to make OFBiz an even better product. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Jacopo |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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Is you response directed to me, Scot? Or is it to all of the 'other kind of
contributors than you are'? If directed at me, then have the common decency to state my name, so that all of us do know that too. RE: mailing list moderators. Up to yesterday, I was not aware of the fact that there was such a group, nor who the members are that are policing what gets in mailing list. Having done a little search on that subject in our wikis I found no reference about it, nor a disclosure of this. Doing a wider search in my mail archives I found that Jacques expressed back in November 2013 that it was unclear to him who those moderators were. And he is a PMC Member..... I guess I must compliment the PMC on showing such great restraint in: - disclosing that there is a group within this community called the 'mailing list moderators' - disclosing who the community members are that are policing our mailing lists - reporting on what this group has kept out and/or removed our mailing lists. My advise to the PMC is to re-evaluate and correct that situation. This community deserves transparency and disclosure. RE: critique Yes, Jacopo was criticising me using this mailing list for this matter. Not you, nor any other community member. That you think about it and express your viewpoint is a good thing to improve the work and/or the interactions between community members of this project. But don't try to shun or ostracize the other community member that does the same. Like you have tried in the past onto me and others with even far less moderation in you tones than you are sharing now. How wondrous and ambiguous you are when saying that 'community members perceive my actions in a negative way' and that thus meritocacy works against me. Is that your kind of community members? Or the other kind, the kind with the power to vote? The way you have expressed your self in the past, you could better have said 'we, the active committers and PMC members'. And meritocracy works against me? In this project it is applied as a popularity poll amongst persons who, in my opinion, only vote to protect their power base. But not in respect of bringing this project further, community wise. From day one of my participation in this project, from my first contribution onwards the cards in the deck have been stacked against me and any of the other kind of contributor, because: - I haven't done code contributions to the set of components in the framework stack, - I haven't been your lackey, serf or yes-man every time you, and the other contributors like you, contributed stuff, - I have called you out when you used foul language towards other community members and myself. And you hold grudges. Since the day this project came out of the incubator, since the day archives and stats are available on the mailing lists and, for sure, on the other tools of this project, it shows that I am, in absolute numbers, one of the most active non-committing contributors in this projects, whether you look at identifying issues, contributing patches helping newcomers and other community members and promoting both the works of this project and the project itself. Even promoting other contributors. I have been even more active than some of your kind. And if you or anyone else don't or doens't believe me, for an indication you can have a look at the 'Who sent it' overview in http://markmail.org/search/?q=ofbiz I am in the top 25. That you regard my contributions as mediocre and/or argumentative for the sake of arguing, like you have done in the past, says more about you and your regards for contributions of the other kind of contributors and thus about those contributors, than the actual, objective merit of these contributions to this project. Meritocracy at work, my ass. That we disagree on points is fact. I respect our differences in viewpoints. I regret that you don't express - through your actions - the capability, nor the willingness to work with every contributor in finding consensus in improving this community and the total some of works of this project. Nonetheless, I do appreciate all your contributions to improve the quality of the code base of the components in the framework stack. And I'll appreciate you leaving the other stuff of this project to others. Now, to put it in the same paternalistic way as Jacopo has done, let's all get back to work, do what each of us is good at and thus make OFBiz a better project and product. And stop arguing for the sake of arguing. Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & Trade http://www.orrtiz.com |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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Quite a novel you've written there Piere. There's so many things I'd like to clarify in your rant but you're so far detached from the reality of how this community works that it's gotten to the point of being pointless.
Regards Scott On 19 September 2014 20:59:48 GMT+12:00, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]> wrote: >Is you response directed to me, Scot? Or is it to all of the 'other >kind of >contributors than you are'? > >If directed at me, then have the common decency to state my name, so >that >all of us do know that too. > >RE: mailing list moderators. >Up to yesterday, I was not aware of the fact that there was such a >group, >nor who the members are that are policing what gets in mailing list. >Having >done a little search on that subject in our wikis I found no reference >about it, nor a disclosure of this. Doing a wider search in my mail >archives I found that Jacques expressed back in November 2013 that it >was >unclear to him who those moderators were. And he is a PMC Member..... > >I guess I must compliment the PMC on showing such great restraint in: > > - disclosing that there is a group within this community called the > 'mailing list moderators' >- disclosing who the community members are that are policing our >mailing > lists > - reporting on what this group has kept out and/or removed our mailing > lists. > >My advise to the PMC is to re-evaluate and correct that situation. This >community deserves transparency and disclosure. > >RE: critique >Yes, Jacopo was criticising me using this mailing list for this matter. >Not >you, nor any other community member. That you think about it and >express >your viewpoint is a good thing to improve the work and/or the >interactions >between community members of this project. >But don't try to shun or ostracize the other community member that does >the >same. Like you have tried in the past onto me and others with even far >less >moderation in you tones than you are sharing now. > >How wondrous and ambiguous you are when saying that 'community members >perceive my actions in a negative way' and that thus meritocacy works >against me. >Is that your kind of community members? Or the other kind, the kind >with >the power to vote? The way you have expressed your self in the past, >you >could better have said 'we, the active committers and PMC members'. > >And meritocracy works against me? In this project it is applied as a >popularity poll amongst persons who, in my opinion, only vote to >protect >their power base. But not in respect of bringing this project further, >community wise. > >From day one of my participation in this project, from my first >contribution onwards the cards in the deck have been stacked against me >and >any of the other kind of contributor, because: > > - I haven't done code contributions to the set of components in the > framework stack, > - I haven't been your lackey, serf or yes-man every time you, and the > other contributors like you, contributed stuff, > - I have called you out when you used foul language towards other > community members and myself. > >And you hold grudges. > >Since the day this project came out of the incubator, since the day >archives and stats are available on the mailing lists and, for sure, on >the >other tools of this project, it shows that I am, in absolute numbers, >one >of the most active non-committing contributors in this projects, >whether >you look at identifying issues, contributing patches helping newcomers >and >other community members and promoting both the works of this project >and >the project itself. Even promoting other contributors. >I have been even more active than some of your kind. And if you or >anyone >else don't or doens't believe me, for an indication you can have a look >at >the 'Who sent it' overview in http://markmail.org/search/?q=ofbiz I am >in >the top 25. > >That you regard my contributions as mediocre and/or argumentative for >the >sake of arguing, like you have done in the past, says more about you >and >your regards for contributions of the other kind of contributors and >thus >about those contributors, than the actual, objective merit of these >contributions to this project. Meritocracy at work, my ass. > >That we disagree on points is fact. I respect our differences in >viewpoints. I regret that you don't express - through your actions - >the >capability, nor the willingness to work with every contributor in >finding >consensus in improving this community and the total some of works of >this >project. > >Nonetheless, I do appreciate all your contributions to improve the >quality >of the code base of the components in the framework stack. And I'll >appreciate you leaving the other stuff of this project to others. > > >Now, to put it in the same paternalistic way as Jacopo has done, let's >all >get back to work, do what each of us is good at and thus make OFBiz a >better project and product. And stop arguing for the sake of arguing. > >Pierre Smits > >*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* >Services & Solutions for Cloud- >Based Manufacturing, Professional >Services and Retail & Trade >http://www.orrtiz.com -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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Like debating with you, Sott
Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: > Quite a novel you've written there Piere. There's so many things I'd like > to clarify in your rant but you're so far detached from the reality of how > this community works that it's gotten to the point of being pointless. > > Regards > Scott > > > On 19 September 2014 20:59:48 GMT+12:00, Pierre Smits < > [hidden email]> wrote: > >Is you response directed to me, Scot? Or is it to all of the 'other > >kind of > >contributors than you are'? > > > >If directed at me, then have the common decency to state my name, so > >that > >all of us do know that too. > > > >RE: mailing list moderators. > >Up to yesterday, I was not aware of the fact that there was such a > >group, > >nor who the members are that are policing what gets in mailing list. > >Having > >done a little search on that subject in our wikis I found no reference > >about it, nor a disclosure of this. Doing a wider search in my mail > >archives I found that Jacques expressed back in November 2013 that it > >was > >unclear to him who those moderators were. And he is a PMC Member..... > > > >I guess I must compliment the PMC on showing such great restraint in: > > > > - disclosing that there is a group within this community called the > > 'mailing list moderators' > >- disclosing who the community members are that are policing our > >mailing > > lists > > - reporting on what this group has kept out and/or removed our mailing > > lists. > > > >My advise to the PMC is to re-evaluate and correct that situation. This > >community deserves transparency and disclosure. > > > >RE: critique > >Yes, Jacopo was criticising me using this mailing list for this matter. > >Not > >you, nor any other community member. That you think about it and > >express > >your viewpoint is a good thing to improve the work and/or the > >interactions > >between community members of this project. > >But don't try to shun or ostracize the other community member that does > >the > >same. Like you have tried in the past onto me and others with even far > >less > >moderation in you tones than you are sharing now. > > > >How wondrous and ambiguous you are when saying that 'community members > >perceive my actions in a negative way' and that thus meritocacy works > >against me. > >Is that your kind of community members? Or the other kind, the kind > >with > >the power to vote? The way you have expressed your self in the past, > >you > >could better have said 'we, the active committers and PMC members'. > > > >And meritocracy works against me? In this project it is applied as a > >popularity poll amongst persons who, in my opinion, only vote to > >protect > >their power base. But not in respect of bringing this project further, > >community wise. > > > >From day one of my participation in this project, from my first > >contribution onwards the cards in the deck have been stacked against me > >and > >any of the other kind of contributor, because: > > > > - I haven't done code contributions to the set of components in the > > framework stack, > > - I haven't been your lackey, serf or yes-man every time you, and the > > other contributors like you, contributed stuff, > > - I have called you out when you used foul language towards other > > community members and myself. > > > >And you hold grudges. > > > >Since the day this project came out of the incubator, since the day > >archives and stats are available on the mailing lists and, for sure, on > >the > >other tools of this project, it shows that I am, in absolute numbers, > >one > >of the most active non-committing contributors in this projects, > >whether > >you look at identifying issues, contributing patches helping newcomers > >and > >other community members and promoting both the works of this project > >and > >the project itself. Even promoting other contributors. > >I have been even more active than some of your kind. And if you or > >anyone > >else don't or doens't believe me, for an indication you can have a look > >at > >the 'Who sent it' overview in http://markmail.org/search/?q=ofbiz I am > >in > >the top 25. > > > >That you regard my contributions as mediocre and/or argumentative for > >the > >sake of arguing, like you have done in the past, says more about you > >and > >your regards for contributions of the other kind of contributors and > >thus > >about those contributors, than the actual, objective merit of these > >contributions to this project. Meritocracy at work, my ass. > > > >That we disagree on points is fact. I respect our differences in > >viewpoints. I regret that you don't express - through your actions - > >the > >capability, nor the willingness to work with every contributor in > >finding > >consensus in improving this community and the total some of works of > >this > >project. > > > >Nonetheless, I do appreciate all your contributions to improve the > >quality > >of the code base of the components in the framework stack. And I'll > >appreciate you leaving the other stuff of this project to others. > > > > > >Now, to put it in the same paternalistic way as Jacopo has done, let's > >all > >get back to work, do what each of us is good at and thus make OFBiz a > >better project and product. And stop arguing for the sake of arguing. > > > >Pierre Smits > > > >*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* > >Services & Solutions for Cloud- > >Based Manufacturing, Professional > >Services and Retail & Trade > >http://www.orrtiz.com > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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In reply to this post by Scott Gray-2
It seems to me that Pierre is questioning how this community work. He is not the 1st to do that, others have resigned, not Ron.
Jacques Le 19/09/2014 13:20, Scott Gray a écrit : > Quite a novel you've written there Piere. There's so many things I'd like to clarify in your rant but you're so far detached from the reality of how this community works that it's gotten to the point of being pointless. > > Regards > Scott > > > On 19 September 2014 20:59:48 GMT+12:00, Pierre Smits<[hidden email]> wrote: >> Is you response directed to me, Scot? Or is it to all of the 'other >> kind of >> contributors than you are'? >> >> If directed at me, then have the common decency to state my name, so >> that >> all of us do know that too. >> >> RE: mailing list moderators. >> Up to yesterday, I was not aware of the fact that there was such a >> group, >> nor who the members are that are policing what gets in mailing list. >> Having >> done a little search on that subject in our wikis I found no reference >> about it, nor a disclosure of this. Doing a wider search in my mail >> archives I found that Jacques expressed back in November 2013 that it >> was >> unclear to him who those moderators were. And he is a PMC Member..... >> >> I guess I must compliment the PMC on showing such great restraint in: >> >> - disclosing that there is a group within this community called the >> 'mailing list moderators' >> - disclosing who the community members are that are policing our >> mailing >> lists >> - reporting on what this group has kept out and/or removed our mailing >> lists. >> >> My advise to the PMC is to re-evaluate and correct that situation. This >> community deserves transparency and disclosure. >> >> RE: critique >> Yes, Jacopo was criticising me using this mailing list for this matter. >> Not >> you, nor any other community member. That you think about it and >> express >> your viewpoint is a good thing to improve the work and/or the >> interactions >> between community members of this project. >> But don't try to shun or ostracize the other community member that does >> the >> same. Like you have tried in the past onto me and others with even far >> less >> moderation in you tones than you are sharing now. >> >> How wondrous and ambiguous you are when saying that 'community members >> perceive my actions in a negative way' and that thus meritocacy works >> against me. >> Is that your kind of community members? Or the other kind, the kind >> with >> the power to vote? The way you have expressed your self in the past, >> you >> could better have said 'we, the active committers and PMC members'. >> >> And meritocracy works against me? In this project it is applied as a >> popularity poll amongst persons who, in my opinion, only vote to >> protect >> their power base. But not in respect of bringing this project further, >> community wise. >> > >From day one of my participation in this project, from my first >> contribution onwards the cards in the deck have been stacked against me >> and >> any of the other kind of contributor, because: >> >> - I haven't done code contributions to the set of components in the >> framework stack, >> - I haven't been your lackey, serf or yes-man every time you, and the >> other contributors like you, contributed stuff, >> - I have called you out when you used foul language towards other >> community members and myself. >> >> And you hold grudges. >> >> Since the day this project came out of the incubator, since the day >> archives and stats are available on the mailing lists and, for sure, on >> the >> other tools of this project, it shows that I am, in absolute numbers, >> one >> of the most active non-committing contributors in this projects, >> whether >> you look at identifying issues, contributing patches helping newcomers >> and >> other community members and promoting both the works of this project >> and >> the project itself. Even promoting other contributors. >> I have been even more active than some of your kind. And if you or >> anyone >> else don't or doens't believe me, for an indication you can have a look >> at >> the 'Who sent it' overview inhttp://markmail.org/search/?q=ofbiz I am >> in >> the top 25. >> >> That you regard my contributions as mediocre and/or argumentative for >> the >> sake of arguing, like you have done in the past, says more about you >> and >> your regards for contributions of the other kind of contributors and >> thus >> about those contributors, than the actual, objective merit of these >> contributions to this project. Meritocracy at work, my ass. >> >> That we disagree on points is fact. I respect our differences in >> viewpoints. I regret that you don't express - through your actions - >> the >> capability, nor the willingness to work with every contributor in >> finding >> consensus in improving this community and the total some of works of >> this >> project. >> >> Nonetheless, I do appreciate all your contributions to improve the >> quality >> of the code base of the components in the framework stack. And I'll >> appreciate you leaving the other stuff of this project to others. >> >> >> Now, to put it in the same paternalistic way as Jacopo has done, let's >> all >> get back to work, do what each of us is good at and thus make OFBiz a >> better project and product. And stop arguing for the sake of arguing. >> >> Pierre Smits >> >> *ORRTIZ.COM<http://www.orrtiz.com>* >> Services & Solutions for Cloud- >> Based Manufacturing, Professional >> Services and Retail & Trade >> http://www.orrtiz.com |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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I do not question how this community works. I understand the Apache Way.
I question the capabilities, actions and motives (both short and long term) of the PMC with regards to managing this project, furthering it and doing just to both users and contributors. Like others have done in the past. But unlike those others, I don't flee when PMC members try to discredit and ostracise me with innuendo and foul language. Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Jacques Le Roux < [hidden email]> wrote: > It seems to me that Pierre is questioning how this community work. He is > not the 1st to do that, others have resigned, not Ron. > > Jacques > > Le 19/09/2014 13:20, Scott Gray a écrit : > >> Quite a novel you've written there Piere. There's so many things I'd >> like to clarify in your rant but you're so far detached from the reality of >> how this community works that it's gotten to the point of being pointless. >> >> Regards >> Scott >> >> >> On 19 September 2014 20:59:48 GMT+12:00, Pierre Smits< >> [hidden email]> wrote: >> >>> Is you response directed to me, Scot? Or is it to all of the 'other >>> kind of >>> contributors than you are'? >>> >>> If directed at me, then have the common decency to state my name, so >>> that >>> all of us do know that too. >>> >>> RE: mailing list moderators. >>> Up to yesterday, I was not aware of the fact that there was such a >>> group, >>> nor who the members are that are policing what gets in mailing list. >>> Having >>> done a little search on that subject in our wikis I found no reference >>> about it, nor a disclosure of this. Doing a wider search in my mail >>> archives I found that Jacques expressed back in November 2013 that it >>> was >>> unclear to him who those moderators were. And he is a PMC Member..... >>> >>> I guess I must compliment the PMC on showing such great restraint in: >>> >>> - disclosing that there is a group within this community called the >>> 'mailing list moderators' >>> - disclosing who the community members are that are policing our >>> mailing >>> lists >>> - reporting on what this group has kept out and/or removed our mailing >>> lists. >>> >>> My advise to the PMC is to re-evaluate and correct that situation. This >>> community deserves transparency and disclosure. >>> >>> RE: critique >>> Yes, Jacopo was criticising me using this mailing list for this matter. >>> Not >>> you, nor any other community member. That you think about it and >>> express >>> your viewpoint is a good thing to improve the work and/or the >>> interactions >>> between community members of this project. >>> But don't try to shun or ostracize the other community member that does >>> the >>> same. Like you have tried in the past onto me and others with even far >>> less >>> moderation in you tones than you are sharing now. >>> >>> How wondrous and ambiguous you are when saying that 'community members >>> perceive my actions in a negative way' and that thus meritocacy works >>> against me. >>> Is that your kind of community members? Or the other kind, the kind >>> with >>> the power to vote? The way you have expressed your self in the past, >>> you >>> could better have said 'we, the active committers and PMC members'. >>> >>> And meritocracy works against me? In this project it is applied as a >>> popularity poll amongst persons who, in my opinion, only vote to >>> protect >>> their power base. But not in respect of bringing this project further, >>> community wise. >>> >>> >From day one of my participation in this project, from my first >> >>> contribution onwards the cards in the deck have been stacked against me >>> and >>> any of the other kind of contributor, because: >>> >>> - I haven't done code contributions to the set of components in the >>> framework stack, >>> - I haven't been your lackey, serf or yes-man every time you, and the >>> other contributors like you, contributed stuff, >>> - I have called you out when you used foul language towards other >>> community members and myself. >>> >>> And you hold grudges. >>> >>> Since the day this project came out of the incubator, since the day >>> archives and stats are available on the mailing lists and, for sure, on >>> the >>> other tools of this project, it shows that I am, in absolute numbers, >>> one >>> of the most active non-committing contributors in this projects, >>> whether >>> you look at identifying issues, contributing patches helping newcomers >>> and >>> other community members and promoting both the works of this project >>> and >>> the project itself. Even promoting other contributors. >>> I have been even more active than some of your kind. And if you or >>> anyone >>> else don't or doens't believe me, for an indication you can have a look >>> at >>> the 'Who sent it' overview inhttp://markmail.org/search/?q=ofbiz I am >>> >>> in >>> the top 25. >>> >>> That you regard my contributions as mediocre and/or argumentative for >>> the >>> sake of arguing, like you have done in the past, says more about you >>> and >>> your regards for contributions of the other kind of contributors and >>> thus >>> about those contributors, than the actual, objective merit of these >>> contributions to this project. Meritocracy at work, my ass. >>> >>> That we disagree on points is fact. I respect our differences in >>> viewpoints. I regret that you don't express - through your actions - >>> the >>> capability, nor the willingness to work with every contributor in >>> finding >>> consensus in improving this community and the total some of works of >>> this >>> project. >>> >>> Nonetheless, I do appreciate all your contributions to improve the >>> quality >>> of the code base of the components in the framework stack. And I'll >>> appreciate you leaving the other stuff of this project to others. >>> >>> >>> Now, to put it in the same paternalistic way as Jacopo has done, let's >>> all >>> get back to work, do what each of us is good at and thus make OFBiz a >>> better project and product. And stop arguing for the sake of arguing. >>> >>> Pierre Smits >>> >>> *ORRTIZ.COM<http://www.orrtiz.com>* >>> Services & Solutions for Cloud- >>> Based Manufacturing, Professional >>> Services and Retail & Trade >>> http://www.orrtiz.com >>> >> > |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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Trust me, you don't need the PMC to discredit you, you are doing fine on
your own. Adrian Crum Sandglass Software www.sandglass-software.com On 9/22/2014 9:54 AM, Pierre Smits wrote: > I do not question how this community works. I understand the Apache Way. > > I question the capabilities, actions and motives (both short and long term) > of the PMC with regards to managing this project, furthering it and doing > just to both users and contributors. > > Like others have done in the past. But unlike those others, I don't flee > when PMC members try to discredit and ostracise me with innuendo and foul > language. > > > Pierre Smits > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* > Services & Solutions for Cloud- > Based Manufacturing, Professional > Services and Retail & Trade > http://www.orrtiz.com > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Jacques Le Roux < > [hidden email]> wrote: > >> It seems to me that Pierre is questioning how this community work. He is >> not the 1st to do that, others have resigned, not Ron. >> >> Jacques >> >> Le 19/09/2014 13:20, Scott Gray a écrit : >> >>> Quite a novel you've written there Piere. There's so many things I'd >>> like to clarify in your rant but you're so far detached from the reality of >>> how this community works that it's gotten to the point of being pointless. >>> >>> Regards >>> Scott >>> >>> >>> On 19 September 2014 20:59:48 GMT+12:00, Pierre Smits< >>> [hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>>> Is you response directed to me, Scot? Or is it to all of the 'other >>>> kind of >>>> contributors than you are'? >>>> >>>> If directed at me, then have the common decency to state my name, so >>>> that >>>> all of us do know that too. >>>> >>>> RE: mailing list moderators. >>>> Up to yesterday, I was not aware of the fact that there was such a >>>> group, >>>> nor who the members are that are policing what gets in mailing list. >>>> Having >>>> done a little search on that subject in our wikis I found no reference >>>> about it, nor a disclosure of this. Doing a wider search in my mail >>>> archives I found that Jacques expressed back in November 2013 that it >>>> was >>>> unclear to him who those moderators were. And he is a PMC Member..... >>>> >>>> I guess I must compliment the PMC on showing such great restraint in: >>>> >>>> - disclosing that there is a group within this community called the >>>> 'mailing list moderators' >>>> - disclosing who the community members are that are policing our >>>> mailing >>>> lists >>>> - reporting on what this group has kept out and/or removed our mailing >>>> lists. >>>> >>>> My advise to the PMC is to re-evaluate and correct that situation. This >>>> community deserves transparency and disclosure. >>>> >>>> RE: critique >>>> Yes, Jacopo was criticising me using this mailing list for this matter. >>>> Not >>>> you, nor any other community member. That you think about it and >>>> express >>>> your viewpoint is a good thing to improve the work and/or the >>>> interactions >>>> between community members of this project. >>>> But don't try to shun or ostracize the other community member that does >>>> the >>>> same. Like you have tried in the past onto me and others with even far >>>> less >>>> moderation in you tones than you are sharing now. >>>> >>>> How wondrous and ambiguous you are when saying that 'community members >>>> perceive my actions in a negative way' and that thus meritocacy works >>>> against me. >>>> Is that your kind of community members? Or the other kind, the kind >>>> with >>>> the power to vote? The way you have expressed your self in the past, >>>> you >>>> could better have said 'we, the active committers and PMC members'. >>>> >>>> And meritocracy works against me? In this project it is applied as a >>>> popularity poll amongst persons who, in my opinion, only vote to >>>> protect >>>> their power base. But not in respect of bringing this project further, >>>> community wise. >>>> >>>> >From day one of my participation in this project, from my first >>> >>>> contribution onwards the cards in the deck have been stacked against me >>>> and >>>> any of the other kind of contributor, because: >>>> >>>> - I haven't done code contributions to the set of components in the >>>> framework stack, >>>> - I haven't been your lackey, serf or yes-man every time you, and the >>>> other contributors like you, contributed stuff, >>>> - I have called you out when you used foul language towards other >>>> community members and myself. >>>> >>>> And you hold grudges. >>>> >>>> Since the day this project came out of the incubator, since the day >>>> archives and stats are available on the mailing lists and, for sure, on >>>> the >>>> other tools of this project, it shows that I am, in absolute numbers, >>>> one >>>> of the most active non-committing contributors in this projects, >>>> whether >>>> you look at identifying issues, contributing patches helping newcomers >>>> and >>>> other community members and promoting both the works of this project >>>> and >>>> the project itself. Even promoting other contributors. >>>> I have been even more active than some of your kind. And if you or >>>> anyone >>>> else don't or doens't believe me, for an indication you can have a look >>>> at >>>> the 'Who sent it' overview inhttp://markmail.org/search/?q=ofbiz I am >>>> >>>> in >>>> the top 25. >>>> >>>> That you regard my contributions as mediocre and/or argumentative for >>>> the >>>> sake of arguing, like you have done in the past, says more about you >>>> and >>>> your regards for contributions of the other kind of contributors and >>>> thus >>>> about those contributors, than the actual, objective merit of these >>>> contributions to this project. Meritocracy at work, my ass. >>>> >>>> That we disagree on points is fact. I respect our differences in >>>> viewpoints. I regret that you don't express - through your actions - >>>> the >>>> capability, nor the willingness to work with every contributor in >>>> finding >>>> consensus in improving this community and the total some of works of >>>> this >>>> project. >>>> >>>> Nonetheless, I do appreciate all your contributions to improve the >>>> quality >>>> of the code base of the components in the framework stack. And I'll >>>> appreciate you leaving the other stuff of this project to others. >>>> >>>> >>>> Now, to put it in the same paternalistic way as Jacopo has done, let's >>>> all >>>> get back to work, do what each of us is good at and thus make OFBiz a >>>> better project and product. And stop arguing for the sake of arguing. >>>> >>>> Pierre Smits >>>> >>>> *ORRTIZ.COM<http://www.orrtiz.com>* >>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud- >>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional >>>> Services and Retail & Trade >>>> http://www.orrtiz.com >>>> >>> >> > |
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In reply to this post by Pierre Smits
Guys. All this does not help the project. It's time to stop.
Sent from my BlackBerry® PlayBook™ www.blackberry.com ------------------------------ *From:* "Adrian Crum" <[hidden email]> *To:* "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> *Sent:* September 22, 2014 2:35 AM *Subject:* Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project) Trust me, you don't need the PMC to discredit you, you are doing fine on your own. Adrian Crum Sandglass Softwarewww.sandglass-software.com On 9/22/2014 9:54 AM, Pierre Smits wrote: > I do not question how this community works. I understand the Apache Way. > > I question the capabilities, actions and motives (both short and long term) > of the PMC with regards to managing this project, furthering it and doing > just to both users and contributors. > > Like others have done in the past. But unlike those others, I don't flee > when PMC members try to discredit and ostracise me with innuendo and foul > language. > > > Pierre Smits > > *ORRTIZ.COM * > Services & Solutions for Cloud- > Based Manufacturing, Professional > Services and Retail & Trade > http://www.orrtiz.com > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Jacques Le Roux < > [hidden email]> wrote: > >> It seems to me that Pierre is questioning how this community work. He is >> not the 1st to do that, others have resigned, not Ron. >> >> Jacques >> >> Le 19/09/2014 13:20, Scott Gray a écrit : >> >>> Quite a novel you've written there Piere. There's so many things I'd >>> like to clarify in your rant but you're so far detached from the reality of >>> how this community works that it's gotten to the point of being pointless. >>> >>> Regards >>> Scott >>> >>> >>> On 19 September 2014 20:59:48 GMT+12:00, Pierre Smits< >>> [hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>>> Is you response directed to me, Scot? Or is it to all of the 'other >>>> kind of >>>> contributors than you are'? >>>> >>>> If directed at me, then have the common decency to state my name, so >>>> that >>>> all of us do know that too. >>>> >>>> RE: mailing list moderators. >>>> Up to yesterday, I was not aware of the fact that there was such a >>>> group, >>>> nor who the members are that are policing what gets in mailing list. >>>> Having >>>> done a little search on that subject in our wikis I found no reference >>>> about it, nor a disclosure of this. Doing a wider search in my mail >>>> archives I found that Jacques expressed back in November 2013 that it >>>> was >>>> unclear to him who those moderators were. And he is a PMC Member..... >>>> >>>> I guess I must compliment the PMC on showing such great restraint in: >>>> >>>> - disclosing that there is a group within this community called the >>>> 'mailing list moderators' >>>> - disclosing who the community members are that are policing our >>>> mailing >>>> lists >>>> - reporting on what this group has kept out and/or removed our mailing >>>> lists. >>>> >>>> My advise to the PMC is to re-evaluate and correct that situation. This >>>> community deserves transparency and disclosure. >>>> >>>> RE: critique >>>> Yes, Jacopo was criticising me using this mailing list for this matter. >>>> Not >>>> you, nor any other community member. That you think about it and >>>> express >>>> your viewpoint is a good thing to improve the work and/or the >>>> interactions >>>> between community members of this project. >>>> But don't try to shun or ostracize the other community member that does >>>> the >>>> same. Like you have tried in the past onto me and others with even far >>>> less >>>> moderation in you tones than you are sharing now. >>>> >>>> How wondrous and ambiguous you are when saying that 'community members >>>> perceive my actions in a negative way' and that thus meritocacy works >>>> against me. >>>> Is that your kind of community members? Or the other kind, the kind >>>> with >>>> the power to vote? The way you have expressed your self in the past, >>>> you >>>> could better have said 'we, the active committers and PMC members'. >>>> >>>> And meritocracy works against me? In this project it is applied as a >>>> popularity poll amongst persons who, in my opinion, only vote to >>>> protect >>>> their power base. But not in respect of bringing this project further, >>>> community wise. >>>> >>>> >From day one of my participation in this project, from my first >>> >>>> contribution onwards the cards in the deck have been stacked against me >>>> and >>>> any of the other kind of contributor, because: >>>> >>>> - I haven't done code contributions to the set of components in the >>>> framework stack, >>>> - I haven't been your lackey, serf or yes-man every time you, and the >>>> other contributors like you, contributed stuff, >>>> - I have called you out when you used foul language towards other >>>> community members and myself. >>>> >>>> And you hold grudges. >>>> >>>> Since the day this project came out of the incubator, since the day >>>> archives and stats are available on the mailing lists and, for sure, on >>>> the >>>> other tools of this project, it shows that I am, in absolute numbers, >>>> one >>>> of the most active non-committing contributors in this projects, >>>> whether >>>> you look at identifying issues, contributing patches helping newcomers >>>> and >>>> other community members and promoting both the works of this project >>>> and >>>> the project itself. Even promoting other contributors. >>>> I have been even more active than some of your kind. And if you or >>>> anyone >>>> else don't or doens't believe me, for an indication you can have a look >>>> at >>>> the 'Who sent it' overview inhttp://markmail.org/search/?q=ofbiz I am >>>> >>>> in >>>> the top 25. >>>> >>>> That you regard my contributions as mediocre and/or argumentative for >>>> the >>>> sake of arguing, like you have done in the past, says more about you >>>> and >>>> your regards for contributions of the other kind of contributors and >>>> thus >>>> about those contributors, than the actual, objective merit of these >>>> contributions to this project. Meritocracy at work, my ass. >>>> >>>> That we disagree on points is fact. I respect our differences in >>>> viewpoints. I regret that you don't express - through your actions - >>>> the >>>> capability, nor the willingness to work with every contributor in >>>> finding >>>> consensus in improving this community and the total some of works of >>>> this >>>> project. >>>> >>>> Nonetheless, I do appreciate all your contributions to improve the >>>> quality >>>> of the code base of the components in the framework stack. And I'll >>>> appreciate you leaving the other stuff of this project to others. >>>> >>>> >>>> Now, to put it in the same paternalistic way as Jacopo has done, let's >>>> all >>>> get back to work, do what each of us is good at and thus make OFBiz a >>>> better project and product. And stop arguing for the sake of arguing. >>>> >>>> Pierre Smits >>>> >>>> *ORRTIZ.COM* >>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud- >>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional >>>> Services and Retail & Trade >>>> http://www.orrtiz.com >>>> >>> >> > |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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Administrator
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Actually when I answered to Scott my tone was neutral. I just wanted to mention that some persons, like Pierre and Ron, are not satisfied by how the
community currently works . That's their right, and even their pride (it's not that easy to stand up against a community) What's interesting in their approaches, contrary to some of their predecessors, is they are not (only ;) ranting but are (also ;) making interesting elaborated propositions... Sometimes, their proposition (notably at the beginning) don't take into account the reality and the way this project works. But, IMO, that's always interesting. We can then explain them and they can continue to think... On the other hand I agree that any "Ad hominem" don't add anything... even the contrary, so should better stop... Jacques Le 22/09/2014 20:07, Mike Z a écrit : > Guys. All this does not help the project. It's time to stop. > > Sent from my BlackBerry® PlayBook™ > www.blackberry.com > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "Adrian Crum" <[hidden email]> > *To:* "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> > *Sent:* September 22, 2014 2:35 AM > *Subject:* Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to > the ASF about the health of the project) > > Trust me, you don't need the PMC to discredit you, you are doing fine on > your own. > > Adrian Crum > Sandglass Softwarewww.sandglass-software.com > > On 9/22/2014 9:54 AM, Pierre Smits wrote: >> I do not question how this community works. I understand the Apache Way. >> >> I question the capabilities, actions and motives (both short and long term) >> of the PMC with regards to managing this project, furthering it and doing >> just to both users and contributors. >> >> Like others have done in the past. But unlike those others, I don't flee >> when PMC members try to discredit and ostracise me with innuendo and foul >> language. >> >> >> Pierre Smits >> >> *ORRTIZ.COM * >> Services & Solutions for Cloud- >> Based Manufacturing, Professional >> Services and Retail & Trade >> http://www.orrtiz.com >> >> On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Jacques Le Roux < >> [hidden email]> wrote: >> >>> It seems to me that Pierre is questioning how this community work. He is >>> not the 1st to do that, others have resigned, not Ron. >>> >>> Jacques >>> >>> Le 19/09/2014 13:20, Scott Gray a écrit : >>> >>>> Quite a novel you've written there Piere. There's so many things I'd >>>> like to clarify in your rant but you're so far detached from the reality of >>>> how this community works that it's gotten to the point of being pointless. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Scott >>>> >>>> >>>> On 19 September 2014 20:59:48 GMT+12:00, Pierre Smits< >>>> [hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Is you response directed to me, Scot? Or is it to all of the 'other >>>>> kind of >>>>> contributors than you are'? >>>>> >>>>> If directed at me, then have the common decency to state my name, so >>>>> that >>>>> all of us do know that too. >>>>> >>>>> RE: mailing list moderators. >>>>> Up to yesterday, I was not aware of the fact that there was such a >>>>> group, >>>>> nor who the members are that are policing what gets in mailing list. >>>>> Having >>>>> done a little search on that subject in our wikis I found no reference >>>>> about it, nor a disclosure of this. Doing a wider search in my mail >>>>> archives I found that Jacques expressed back in November 2013 that it >>>>> was >>>>> unclear to him who those moderators were. And he is a PMC Member..... >>>>> >>>>> I guess I must compliment the PMC on showing such great restraint in: >>>>> >>>>> - disclosing that there is a group within this community called the >>>>> 'mailing list moderators' >>>>> - disclosing who the community members are that are policing our >>>>> mailing >>>>> lists >>>>> - reporting on what this group has kept out and/or removed our mailing >>>>> lists. >>>>> >>>>> My advise to the PMC is to re-evaluate and correct that situation. This >>>>> community deserves transparency and disclosure. >>>>> >>>>> RE: critique >>>>> Yes, Jacopo was criticising me using this mailing list for this matter. >>>>> Not >>>>> you, nor any other community member. That you think about it and >>>>> express >>>>> your viewpoint is a good thing to improve the work and/or the >>>>> interactions >>>>> between community members of this project. >>>>> But don't try to shun or ostracize the other community member that does >>>>> the >>>>> same. Like you have tried in the past onto me and others with even far >>>>> less >>>>> moderation in you tones than you are sharing now. >>>>> >>>>> How wondrous and ambiguous you are when saying that 'community members >>>>> perceive my actions in a negative way' and that thus meritocacy works >>>>> against me. >>>>> Is that your kind of community members? Or the other kind, the kind >>>>> with >>>>> the power to vote? The way you have expressed your self in the past, >>>>> you >>>>> could better have said 'we, the active committers and PMC members'. >>>>> >>>>> And meritocracy works against me? In this project it is applied as a >>>>> popularity poll amongst persons who, in my opinion, only vote to >>>>> protect >>>>> their power base. But not in respect of bringing this project further, >>>>> community wise. >>>>> >>>>> >From day one of my participation in this project, from my first >>>>> contribution onwards the cards in the deck have been stacked against me >>>>> and >>>>> any of the other kind of contributor, because: >>>>> >>>>> - I haven't done code contributions to the set of components in the >>>>> framework stack, >>>>> - I haven't been your lackey, serf or yes-man every time you, and the >>>>> other contributors like you, contributed stuff, >>>>> - I have called you out when you used foul language towards other >>>>> community members and myself. >>>>> >>>>> And you hold grudges. >>>>> >>>>> Since the day this project came out of the incubator, since the day >>>>> archives and stats are available on the mailing lists and, for sure, on >>>>> the >>>>> other tools of this project, it shows that I am, in absolute numbers, >>>>> one >>>>> of the most active non-committing contributors in this projects, >>>>> whether >>>>> you look at identifying issues, contributing patches helping newcomers >>>>> and >>>>> other community members and promoting both the works of this project >>>>> and >>>>> the project itself. Even promoting other contributors. >>>>> I have been even more active than some of your kind. And if you or >>>>> anyone >>>>> else don't or doens't believe me, for an indication you can have a look >>>>> at >>>>> the 'Who sent it' overview inhttp://markmail.org/search/?q=ofbiz I am >>>>> >>>>> in >>>>> the top 25. >>>>> >>>>> That you regard my contributions as mediocre and/or argumentative for >>>>> the >>>>> sake of arguing, like you have done in the past, says more about you >>>>> and >>>>> your regards for contributions of the other kind of contributors and >>>>> thus >>>>> about those contributors, than the actual, objective merit of these >>>>> contributions to this project. Meritocracy at work, my ass. >>>>> >>>>> That we disagree on points is fact. I respect our differences in >>>>> viewpoints. I regret that you don't express - through your actions - >>>>> the >>>>> capability, nor the willingness to work with every contributor in >>>>> finding >>>>> consensus in improving this community and the total some of works of >>>>> this >>>>> project. >>>>> >>>>> Nonetheless, I do appreciate all your contributions to improve the >>>>> quality >>>>> of the code base of the components in the framework stack. And I'll >>>>> appreciate you leaving the other stuff of this project to others. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Now, to put it in the same paternalistic way as Jacopo has done, let's >>>>> all >>>>> get back to work, do what each of us is good at and thus make OFBiz a >>>>> better project and product. And stop arguing for the sake of arguing. >>>>> >>>>> Pierre Smits >>>>> >>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM* >>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud- >>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional >>>>> Services and Retail & Trade >>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com >>>>> |
Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
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As a newcomer I can only say I appreciate all who contribute in what ever way.
I have gotten so much help fro individuals and searching the archives. The product as is when picked up by a newcomer is very rich and easy to setup, use and modify. It is not like given on a silver platter, but the material is available. There are folks working hard to understand the shortcomings and fix it. As a newcomer I think the health is awesome! I appreciate the hard work all involved have done to make what I am getting so easy to work with.
Joel Fradkin
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