OFBiz-Sandbox approved on SourceForge.net

[cjhowe]

For those of you interested, a project for a sandbox
has been approved on sourceforge.net
(http://sourceforge.net/projects/ofbiz-sandbox/).  The
goal is to provide an area that you can collaborate on
ideas for implementations based on Apache Open for
Business.  These collaborations can be from simple
feature improvements, to showcasing a particular
change, to complete components, to a half-baked idea
that you want to get the gist out to and let someone
with some more skills or time help work on.  

Please understand that this is currently (and
depending on Apache OFBiz's interest in this side
project, perhaps permanently), completely outside of
the Apache Ofbiz project and has no relation to the
ASF other than simply being geeked about the current
and future Apache Open for Business project.  Code
that gets added to the ofbiz-sandbox may never make it
into the Apache OFBiz project.  I have no control over
such matters.  

There is no level of quality necessary to contribute.
Just do your best not to wreck someone else's
progress.

I think the goal of anyone who would be contributing
any time or code to the ofbiz-sandbox is doing so in
the spirit of open source so that others can benefit
from a solution they've discovered.  Therefore to
prevent any potential roadblocks in Apache Ofbiz
adopting solutions formed in the sandbox, all
contributed code will be under the Apache 2.0 license
and I suppose donated to the ASF.  If anyone knows
what I need to do to ensure a roadblock isn't created,
please let me know (collect iCLA's from potential
committers, ensure Apache already has an iCLA for the
potential committer ??)  As soon as I get that
question answered, I'll start adding people who want
to be added to the svn commit access on the sf.net
site.

Personally, I would prefer to use these mailing lists
for discussion of things in the sandbox (to encourage
talk from more people), but if that is or becomes a
hassle for the Apache OFBiz project, just say the word
and I'll maintain a list or two off of the sf.net
site.

Thanks!

[Anil Patel]

I am working on Asset Maintenance application as a component. Its located at


http://code.google.com/p/ofbizassetmgmt/

If anybody is interested.

Anil Patel

On 1/4/07, Chris Howe <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> For those of you interested, a project for a sandbox
> has been approved on sourceforge.net
> (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ofbiz-sandbox/).  The
> goal is to provide an area that you can collaborate on
> ideas for implementations based on Apache Open for
> Business.  These collaborations can be from simple
> feature improvements, to showcasing a particular
> change, to complete components, to a half-baked idea
> that you want to get the gist out to and let someone
> with some more skills or time help work on.
>
> Please understand that this is currently (and
> depending on Apache OFBiz's interest in this side
> project, perhaps permanently), completely outside of
> the Apache Ofbiz project and has no relation to the
> ASF other than simply being geeked about the current
> and future Apache Open for Business project.  Code
> that gets added to the ofbiz-sandbox may never make it
> into the Apache OFBiz project.  I have no control over
> such matters.
>
> There is no level of quality necessary to contribute.
> Just do your best not to wreck someone else's
> progress.
>
> I think the goal of anyone who would be contributing
> any time or code to the ofbiz-sandbox is doing so in
> the spirit of open source so that others can benefit
> from a solution they've discovered.  Therefore to
> prevent any potential roadblocks in Apache Ofbiz
> adopting solutions formed in the sandbox, all
> contributed code will be under the Apache 2.0 license
> and I suppose donated to the ASF.  If anyone knows
> what I need to do to ensure a roadblock isn't created,
> please let me know (collect iCLA's from potential
> committers, ensure Apache already has an iCLA for the
> potential committer ??)  As soon as I get that
> question answered, I'll start adding people who want
> to be added to the svn commit access on the sf.net
> site.
>
> Personally, I would prefer to use these mailing lists
> for discussion of things in the sandbox (to encourage
> talk from more people), but if that is or becomes a
> hassle for the Apache OFBiz project, just say the word
> and I'll maintain a list or two off of the sf.net
> site.
>
> Thanks!
>

[David E Jones-2]

On Jan 4, 2007, at 4:43 PM, Chris Howe wrote:

> For those of you interested, a project for a sandbox
> has been approved on sourceforge.net
> (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ofbiz-sandbox/).  The
> goal is to provide an area that you can collaborate on
> ideas for implementations based on Apache Open for
> Business.  These collaborations can be from simple
> feature improvements, to showcasing a particular
> change, to complete components, to a half-baked idea
> that you want to get the gist out to and let someone
> with some more skills or time help work on.
>
> Please understand that this is currently (and
> depending on Apache OFBiz's interest in this side
> project, perhaps permanently), completely outside of
> the Apache Ofbiz project and has no relation to the
> ASF other than simply being geeked about the current
> and future Apache Open for Business project.  Code
> that gets added to the ofbiz-sandbox may never make it
> into the Apache OFBiz project.  I have no control over
> such matters.

Thanks for clarifying this distinction. My experience with the ASF is  
still somewhat limited, but form what I know so far this sort of  
thing is for the most part discouraged at the ASF. There is an  
informal "project" that is like a sandbox for ASF committers only  
that is meant to be a pre-incubator type of thing to explore  
different things and facilitate collaboration in those.

Just because it's unofficial, there's certainly no problem with this  
from the OFBiz perspective, and we could probably even find a place  
for a link to on the OFBiz site or at least on Confluence. It is the  
intent of OFBiz that anyone can build whatever they want on top of  
it, and if you're interested in facilitating this, go for it!

> There is no level of quality necessary to contribute.
> Just do your best not to wreck someone else's
> progress.
>
> I think the goal of anyone who would be contributing
> any time or code to the ofbiz-sandbox is doing so in
> the spirit of open source so that others can benefit
> from a solution they've discovered.  Therefore to
> prevent any potential roadblocks in Apache Ofbiz
> adopting solutions formed in the sandbox, all
> contributed code will be under the Apache 2.0 license
> and I suppose donated to the ASF.  If anyone knows
> what I need to do to ensure a roadblock isn't created,
> please let me know (collect iCLA's from potential
> committers, ensure Apache already has an iCLA for the
> potential committer ??)  As soon as I get that
> question answered, I'll start adding people who want
> to be added to the svn commit access on the sf.net
> site.

Before the code touches the OFBiz code base it doesn't matter, you  
can do manage things however you want. I wouldn't worry about CLAs  
until code starts moving to OFBiz, and even then if it doesn't have  
to go through incubation CLAs won't be needed anyway.

Still, if there are large blocks of code developed by a bunch of  
different people the licensing issues get trickier and such things  
_may_ have to go through incubation to get into the OFBiz code  
base... When you have a bunch of fingers in a pot things do get  
trickier...

> Personally, I would prefer to use these mailing lists
> for discussion of things in the sandbox (to encourage
> talk from more people), but if that is or becomes a
> hassle for the Apache OFBiz project, just say the word
> and I'll maintain a list or two off of the sf.net
> site.

I don't think this is the best of ideas... If it relates to the  
development of OFBiz itself, please use the ofbiz dev mailing list.  
If it relates to the use of OFBiz itself, please use the ofbiz user  
mailing list. If it relates to the development of something that is  
_not_ OFBiz and it isn't a question or discussion about how to use  
OFBiz, using separate mailing lists would be much better. Not doing  
so could (will...) be very confusing, especially to people who are  
not up to date on all of the happenings around here. Even now I'm not  
comfortable sometimes with the level of opentaps discussion on the  
ofbiz mailing lists, but I suppose that is a natural consequence of  
the way things are structured in that project (not that anything that  
is bad or whatever), and hopefully we'll be able to distinguish  
things more clearly from the OFBiz side in the future (and hopefully  
Si will continue the same thing on the opentaps/OSS side).

-David

[David E Jones-2]

BTW, Anil, as we talked about before if you're still interested in  
getting this into OFBiz that may still be an option we can pursue.

-David


On Jan 4, 2007, at 7:41 PM, Anil Patel wrote:

> I am working on Asset Maintenance application as a component. Its  
> located at
>
>
> http://code.google.com/p/ofbizassetmgmt/
>
> If anybody is interested.
>
> Anil Patel
>
> On 1/4/07, Chris Howe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> For those of you interested, a project for a sandbox
>> has been approved on sourceforge.net
>> (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ofbiz-sandbox/).  The
>> goal is to provide an area that you can collaborate on
>> ideas for implementations based on Apache Open for
>> Business.  These collaborations can be from simple
>> feature improvements, to showcasing a particular
>> change, to complete components, to a half-baked idea
>> that you want to get the gist out to and let someone
>> with some more skills or time help work on.
>>
>> Please understand that this is currently (and
>> depending on Apache OFBiz's interest in this side
>> project, perhaps permanently), completely outside of
>> the Apache Ofbiz project and has no relation to the
>> ASF other than simply being geeked about the current
>> and future Apache Open for Business project.  Code
>> that gets added to the ofbiz-sandbox may never make it
>> into the Apache OFBiz project.  I have no control over
>> such matters.
>>
>> There is no level of quality necessary to contribute.
>> Just do your best not to wreck someone else's
>> progress.
>>
>> I think the goal of anyone who would be contributing
>> any time or code to the ofbiz-sandbox is doing so in
>> the spirit of open source so that others can benefit
>> from a solution they've discovered.  Therefore to
>> prevent any potential roadblocks in Apache Ofbiz
>> adopting solutions formed in the sandbox, all
>> contributed code will be under the Apache 2.0 license
>> and I suppose donated to the ASF.  If anyone knows
>> what I need to do to ensure a roadblock isn't created,
>> please let me know (collect iCLA's from potential
>> committers, ensure Apache already has an iCLA for the
>> potential committer ??)  As soon as I get that
>> question answered, I'll start adding people who want
>> to be added to the svn commit access on the sf.net
>> site.
>>
>> Personally, I would prefer to use these mailing lists
>> for discussion of things in the sandbox (to encourage
>> talk from more people), but if that is or becomes a
>> hassle for the Apache OFBiz project, just say the word
>> and I'll maintain a list or two off of the sf.net
>> site.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>

[cjhowe]

Hey David (others),

I want to avoid being in a potentially
similar situation that Ofbiz was  in prior
to Apache incubation.  

Who owns the code that people contribute via svn?
(rhetorical question follows) Prior to Apache
Incubation was Open for Business a legal entity that
could accept ownership?  If it wasn't, I find myself
in a similar situation in that ofbiz-sandbox isn't a
legal entity.  As far as my contributions that are
OFBiz related, I don't care how others use it as long
as it doesn't prevent me from using it.  How can I
ensure that others who post to the sandbox svn are
making their commits in a similar manner?

Since solutions provided in the sandbox have a
potential to being applicable to the Apache Ofbiz
project, what can be done ahead of time to ensure that
someone has the ability to create a patch based on
sandbox code, upload it to Apache OFBiz's JIRA and
legally be able to click the "Grant license to ASF for
inclusion in ASF works" radio button?  Because the
intention of the sandbox is to facilitate
collaboration, it's likely the person creating the
patch doesn't own the code he's submitting in it's
entirety.  

I want the sandbox to supplement Apache Ofbiz's
efforts and make it easier to develop solutions.  I
don't want contributions to have legal ramifications
because of who owned the contribution when it was all
in the spirit of open source.  

This issue isn't unique to the sandbox either.  Unless
Tim and the others that contributed for the shopping
cart improvement are all employees of Hotwax and Tim
was contributing patches as a function of Hotwax's
operations, they face a similar legal question.  Anil
and Ashish would have potential for legal recourse
later even if they don't voice objections today and
even if they have iCLAs on file with the ASF as they
weren't the donors of their work.  I'm not saying it's
a valid argument, but does at least pass the standard
for a nuisance one.  And if your 25 years or older in
the United States, chances are you already understand
the costs of a nuisance lawsuit.

Thanks for your feedback or if you can point me to
someone in the ASF who can give me a more definitive
answer.

Regards,
Chris


--- David E Jones <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> On Jan 4, 2007, at 4:43 PM, Chris Howe wrote:
>
> > For those of you interested, a project for a
> sandbox
> > has been approved on sourceforge.net
> > (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ofbiz-sandbox/).
> The
> > goal is to provide an area that you can
> collaborate on
> > ideas for implementations based on Apache Open for
> > Business.  These collaborations can be from simple
> > feature improvements, to showcasing a particular
> > change, to complete components, to a half-baked
> idea
> > that you want to get the gist out to and let
> someone
> > with some more skills or time help work on.
> >
> > Please understand that this is currently (and
> > depending on Apache OFBiz's interest in this side
> > project, perhaps permanently), completely outside
> of
> > the Apache Ofbiz project and has no relation to
> the
> > ASF other than simply being geeked about the
> current
> > and future Apache Open for Business project.  Code
> > that gets added to the ofbiz-sandbox may never
> make it
> > into the Apache OFBiz project.  I have no control
> over
> > such matters.
>
> Thanks for clarifying this distinction. My
> experience with the ASF is  
> still somewhat limited, but form what I know so far
> this sort of  
> thing is for the most part discouraged at the ASF.
> There is an  
> informal "project" that is like a sandbox for ASF
> committers only  
> that is meant to be a pre-incubator type of thing to
> explore  
> different things and facilitate collaboration in
> those.
>
> Just because it's unofficial, there's certainly no
> problem with this  
> from the OFBiz perspective, and we could probably
> even find a place  
> for a link to on the OFBiz site or at least on
> Confluence. It is the  
> intent of OFBiz that anyone can build whatever they
> want on top of  
> it, and if you're interested in facilitating this,
> go for it!
>
> > There is no level of quality necessary to
> contribute.
> > Just do your best not to wreck someone else's
> > progress.
> >
> > I think the goal of anyone who would be
> contributing
> > any time or code to the ofbiz-sandbox is doing so
> in
> > the spirit of open source so that others can
> benefit
> > from a solution they've discovered.  Therefore to
> > prevent any potential roadblocks in Apache Ofbiz
> > adopting solutions formed in the sandbox, all
> > contributed code will be under the Apache 2.0
> license
> > and I suppose donated to the ASF.  If anyone knows
> > what I need to do to ensure a roadblock isn't
> created,
> > please let me know (collect iCLA's from potential
> > committers, ensure Apache already has an iCLA for
> the
> > potential committer ??)  As soon as I get that
> > question answered, I'll start adding people who
> want
> > to be added to the svn commit access on the sf.net
> > site.
>
> Before the code touches the OFBiz code base it
> doesn't matter, you  
> can do manage things however you want. I wouldn't
> worry about CLAs  
> until code starts moving to OFBiz, and even then if
> it doesn't have  
> to go through incubation CLAs won't be needed
> anyway.
>
> Still, if there are large blocks of code developed
> by a bunch of  
> different people the licensing issues get trickier
> and such things  
> _may_ have to go through incubation to get into the
> OFBiz code  
> base... When you have a bunch of fingers in a pot
> things do get  
> trickier...
>
> > Personally, I would prefer to use these mailing
> lists
> > for discussion of things in the sandbox (to
> encourage
> > talk from more people), but if that is or becomes
> a
> > hassle for the Apache OFBiz project, just say the
> word
> > and I'll maintain a list or two off of the sf.net
> > site.
>
> I don't think this is the best of ideas... If it
> relates to the  
> development of OFBiz itself, please use the ofbiz
> dev mailing list.  
> If it relates to the use of OFBiz itself, please use
> the ofbiz user  
> mailing list. If it relates to the development of
> something that is  
> _not_ OFBiz and it isn't a question or discussion
> about how to use  
> OFBiz, using separate mailing lists would be much
> better. Not doing  
> so could (will...) be very confusing, especially to
> people who are  
> not up to date on all of the happenings around here.
> Even now I'm not  
> comfortable sometimes with the level of opentaps
> discussion on the  
> ofbiz mailing lists, but I suppose that is a natural
> consequence of  
> the way things are structured in that project (not
> that anything that  
> is bad or whatever), and hopefully we'll be able to
> distinguish  
> things more clearly from the OFBiz side in the
> future (and hopefully  
> Si will continue the same thing on the opentaps/OSS
> side).
>
> -David
>
>
>
>

[David E Jones-2]

On Jan 5, 2007, at 12:43 PM, Chris Howe wrote:

> Hey David (others),
>
> I want to avoid being in a potentially
> similar situation that Ofbiz was  in prior
> to Apache incubation.
>
> Who owns the code that people contribute via svn?
> (rhetorical question follows) Prior to Apache
> Incubation was Open for Business a legal entity that
> could accept ownership?  If it wasn't, I find myself
> in a similar situation in that ofbiz-sandbox isn't a
> legal entity.  As far as my contributions that are
> OFBiz related, I don't care how others use it as long
> as it doesn't prevent me from using it.  How can I
> ensure that others who post to the sandbox svn are
> making their commits in a similar manner?

The owner of the copyright continues to own the copyright. The Apache  
2.0 license explains fairly explicitly that only a license is granted  
from the copyright owner to the ASF, and then from the ASF to any  
users of the software.

How you do this in a sandbox like you're shooting for... I really  
don't know! I think that's one reason the ASF sandbox is limited to  
committers only with CLAs on file. However, having a CLA on file with  
a separate organization doesn't really much for the ASF.

> Since solutions provided in the sandbox have a
> potential to being applicable to the Apache Ofbiz
> project, what can be done ahead of time to ensure that
> someone has the ability to create a patch based on
> sandbox code, upload it to Apache OFBiz's JIRA and
> legally be able to click the "Grant license to ASF for
> inclusion in ASF works" radio button?  Because the
> intention of the sandbox is to facilitate
> collaboration, it's likely the person creating the
> patch doesn't own the code he's submitting in it's
> entirety.
>
> I want the sandbox to supplement Apache Ofbiz's
> efforts and make it easier to develop solutions.  I
> don't want contributions to have legal ramifications
> because of who owned the contribution when it was all
> in the spirit of open source.
>
> This issue isn't unique to the sandbox either.  Unless
> Tim and the others that contributed for the shopping
> cart improvement are all employees of Hotwax and Tim
> was contributing patches as a function of Hotwax's
> operations, they face a similar legal question.  Anil
> and Ashish would have potential for legal recourse
> later even if they don't voice objections today and
> even if they have iCLAs on file with the ASF as they
> weren't the donors of their work.  I'm not saying it's
> a valid argument, but does at least pass the standard
> for a nuisance one.  And if your 25 years or older in
> the United States, chances are you already understand
> the costs of a nuisance lawsuit.

At Hotwax we address this explicitly in our sub-contractor and client  
agreements to make sure we can contribute things back to the open  
source project.

This is an issue that Andy and I have been working with for years and  
be careful about in our contracts and such. Just be careful of doing  
things on a "work for hire" basis because then whoever is paying you  
owns the copyright and they have to contribute it to OFBiz because  
you don't own the copyright so you can't license it (unless you have  
an adequate license from them to be able to sub-license it to the  
ASF...).

-David

> Thanks for your feedback or if you can point me to
> someone in the ASF who can give me a more definitive
> answer.
>
> Regards,
> Chris
>
>
> --- David E Jones <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jan 4, 2007, at 4:43 PM, Chris Howe wrote:
>>
>>> For those of you interested, a project for a
>> sandbox
>>> has been approved on sourceforge.net
>>> (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ofbiz-sandbox/).
>> The
>>> goal is to provide an area that you can
>> collaborate on
>>> ideas for implementations based on Apache Open for
>>> Business.  These collaborations can be from simple
>>> feature improvements, to showcasing a particular
>>> change, to complete components, to a half-baked
>> idea
>>> that you want to get the gist out to and let
>> someone
>>> with some more skills or time help work on.
>>>
>>> Please understand that this is currently (and
>>> depending on Apache OFBiz's interest in this side
>>> project, perhaps permanently), completely outside
>> of
>>> the Apache Ofbiz project and has no relation to
>> the
>>> ASF other than simply being geeked about the
>> current
>>> and future Apache Open for Business project.  Code
>>> that gets added to the ofbiz-sandbox may never
>> make it
>>> into the Apache OFBiz project.  I have no control
>> over
>>> such matters.
>>
>> Thanks for clarifying this distinction. My
>> experience with the ASF is
>> still somewhat limited, but form what I know so far
>> this sort of
>> thing is for the most part discouraged at the ASF.
>> There is an
>> informal "project" that is like a sandbox for ASF
>> committers only
>> that is meant to be a pre-incubator type of thing to
>> explore
>> different things and facilitate collaboration in
>> those.
>>
>> Just because it's unofficial, there's certainly no
>> problem with this
>> from the OFBiz perspective, and we could probably
>> even find a place
>> for a link to on the OFBiz site or at least on
>> Confluence. It is the
>> intent of OFBiz that anyone can build whatever they
>> want on top of
>> it, and if you're interested in facilitating this,
>> go for it!
>>
>>> There is no level of quality necessary to
>> contribute.
>>> Just do your best not to wreck someone else's
>>> progress.
>>>
>>> I think the goal of anyone who would be
>> contributing
>>> any time or code to the ofbiz-sandbox is doing so
>> in
>>> the spirit of open source so that others can
>> benefit
>>> from a solution they've discovered.  Therefore to
>>> prevent any potential roadblocks in Apache Ofbiz
>>> adopting solutions formed in the sandbox, all
>>> contributed code will be under the Apache 2.0
>> license
>>> and I suppose donated to the ASF.  If anyone knows
>>> what I need to do to ensure a roadblock isn't
>> created,
>>> please let me know (collect iCLA's from potential
>>> committers, ensure Apache already has an iCLA for
>> the
>>> potential committer ??)  As soon as I get that
>>> question answered, I'll start adding people who
>> want
>>> to be added to the svn commit access on the sf.net
>>> site.
>>
>> Before the code touches the OFBiz code base it
>> doesn't matter, you
>> can do manage things however you want. I wouldn't
>> worry about CLAs
>> until code starts moving to OFBiz, and even then if
>> it doesn't have
>> to go through incubation CLAs won't be needed
>> anyway.
>>
>> Still, if there are large blocks of code developed
>> by a bunch of
>> different people the licensing issues get trickier
>> and such things
>> _may_ have to go through incubation to get into the
>> OFBiz code
>> base... When you have a bunch of fingers in a pot
>> things do get
>> trickier...
>>
>>> Personally, I would prefer to use these mailing
>> lists
>>> for discussion of things in the sandbox (to
>> encourage
>>> talk from more people), but if that is or becomes
>> a
>>> hassle for the Apache OFBiz project, just say the
>> word
>>> and I'll maintain a list or two off of the sf.net
>>> site.
>>
>> I don't think this is the best of ideas... If it
>> relates to the
>> development of OFBiz itself, please use the ofbiz
>> dev mailing list.
>> If it relates to the use of OFBiz itself, please use
>> the ofbiz user
>> mailing list. If it relates to the development of
>> something that is
>> _not_ OFBiz and it isn't a question or discussion
>> about how to use
>> OFBiz, using separate mailing lists would be much
>> better. Not doing
>> so could (will...) be very confusing, especially to
>> people who are
>> not up to date on all of the happenings around here.
>> Even now I'm not
>> comfortable sometimes with the level of opentaps
>> discussion on the
>> ofbiz mailing lists, but I suppose that is a natural
>> consequence of
>> the way things are structured in that project (not
>> that anything that
>> is bad or whatever), and hopefully we'll be able to
>> distinguish
>> things more clearly from the OFBiz side in the
>> future (and hopefully
>> Si will continue the same thing on the opentaps/OSS
>> side).
>>
>> -David
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

[cjhowe]

--- David E Jones <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> The owner of the copyright continues to own the
> copyright. The Apache  
> 2.0 license explains fairly explicitly that only a
> license is granted  
> from the copyright owner to the ASF, and then from
> the ASF to any  
> users of the software.
>
> How you do this in a sandbox like you're shooting
> for... I really  
> don't know! I think that's one reason the ASF
> sandbox is limited to  
> committers only with CLAs on file. However, having a
> CLA on file with  
> a separate organization doesn't really much for the
> ASF.
>

A CLA for a separate legal entity (entity A) would
give someone from entity A the the legal right to
resubmit the collaborated work to the ASF (and
therefore the authority to press the radio button:
Grant license to ASF for inclusion in ASF works.) Yes?

Again, thanks for your feedback!

[David E Jones-2]

On Jan 5, 2007, at 1:35 PM, Chris Howe wrote:

>
> --- David E Jones <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> The owner of the copyright continues to own the
>> copyright. The Apache
>> 2.0 license explains fairly explicitly that only a
>> license is granted
>> from the copyright owner to the ASF, and then from
>> the ASF to any
>> users of the software.
>>
>> How you do this in a sandbox like you're shooting
>> for... I really
>> don't know! I think that's one reason the ASF
>> sandbox is limited to
>> committers only with CLAs on file. However, having a
>> CLA on file with
>> a separate organization doesn't really much for the
>> ASF.
>>
>
> A CLA for a separate legal entity (entity A) would
> give someone from entity A the the legal right to
> resubmit the collaborated work to the ASF (and
> therefore the authority to press the radio button:
> Grant license to ASF for inclusion in ASF works.) Yes?
>
> Again, thanks for your feedback!

I don't know if it's that simple, and my guess (and concern) is that  
it isn't.

At the ASF there are 2 varieties of CLAs, individual and corporate.  
Individual CLAs are always required and corporate CLAs are required  
if the person is an employee, and may be needed when working under a  
work for hire agreement.

I think if you wanted to create an organization to govern the sandbox  
that would be able to license the code to the ASF you _might_ have to  
have an agreement in place that grants ownership to the sandbox  
entity, so it can license it to the ASF. That gets tricky... and I  
really don't know.

Perhaps someone else does? Another option might be to see if someone  
on the legal discuss mailing list can comment on this.

In general for collaborative efforts that are meant to go into OFBiz,  
I'd still recommend getting a road map laid out and some initial code  
that can be committed for people to base their efforts on. Is this a  
bit of a pain? Yeah. Definitely. Working with others always is. These  
days I spend easily 2-3 hours on collaboration for every hour I spend  
on development...

-David

[cjhowe]

--- David E Jones <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I don't know if it's that simple, and my guess (and
> concern) is that  
> it isn't.
>
> At the ASF there are 2 varieties of CLAs, individual
> and corporate.  
> Individual CLAs are always required and corporate
> CLAs are required  
> if the person is an employee, and may be needed when
> working under a  
> work for hire agreement.
>
> I think if you wanted to create an organization to
> govern the sandbox  
> that would be able to license the code to the ASF
> you _might_ have to  
> have an agreement in place that grants ownership to
> the sandbox  
> entity, so it can license it to the ASF. That gets
> tricky... and I  
> really don't know.
>
> Perhaps someone else does? Another option might be
> to see if someone  
> on the legal discuss mailing list can comment on
> this.

The legal-discuss mailing list is for committers only.
 If a committer could pose the following question to
the legal-discuss mailing list, I would appreciate it
greatly.

Scenario:
A project (Project A) is set up on Source Forge by
individuals as the only legal entities.  Project A is
setup under the Apache License V2.  What would Project
A need to do beforehand to ensure that all code
committed to Project A's SVN is available for an
existing ASF project to incorporate into it's code
base in  the following scenarios:

1) ASF committer incorporates code from Project A
directly into the ASF project
2) Member of Project A submits a patch file to the
JIRA of the ASF project
3) Non Member of Project A submits patch file from
Project A to the JIRA of the ASF project.

Thanks!

[Jacopo Cappellato]

Chris Howe wrote:
>
> The legal-discuss mailing list is for committers only.
>  If a committer could pose the following question to
> the legal-discuss mailing list, I would appreciate it
> greatly.
>

I think that you can post the same message to general@incubator and get
good answers from them too.

Jacopo

[cjhowe]

--- David E Jones <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On the other hand, technically this is a problem you
> don't have  
> yet... If something goes through months of
> development in the sandbox  
> and is ready to go into the OFBiz trunk, THEN you'll
> have some legal  
> hurdles to jump, but then you'll also have very
> specific information  
> about the situation and it can be discussed with
> rubber to the road  
> instead of in a hypothetical way. Still, what you're
> doing with  
> regards to finding out about legal concerns is a
> good idea up front.  
> Hopefully now you know what some of your options are
> and you can  
> decide how to proceed.
>
> -David

Thanks David. Good point on the technicality.  I
suppose it wouldn't be _that difficult to jump the
legal hurdles in most collaborative efforts that would
go on in the sandbox if and when they produced
something that would be of interest to include in the
Apache project.  The scope of most collaboration will
likely only be a handful of people for any given issue
or enhancement (as opposed to the scope of OFBiz prior
to incubation as the entire code base would be treated
as one issue in the sandbox model).  And those people
should be easy to track down with the SVN commit log.

That being said, I will now open up ofbix-sandbox to
anyone wishing to collaborate in a liberal SVN to toss
around ideas through code/create solutions related to
the Apache Open for Business Project please feel free
to contact me through the sourceforge site:  

http://sourceforge.net/projects/ofbiz-sandbox

Thanks!

,Chris