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Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder...
http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ Jacques |
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Jacques,
Why do you think so? It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working for years. In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business. Thanks and Regards Anil Patel HotWax Media Inc Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder... > > http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html > > Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... > > Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) > > The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ > > Jacques > |
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In reply to this post by Jacques Le Roux
There was some interest in porting openerp to jython - now that would
have really rocked! http://rvalyi.blogspot.com/2009/02/openerp-running-on-java-jython-round-1.html Jacques Le Roux wrote: > Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be > harder... > > http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html > > Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... > > Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this > way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) > > The strategy : > http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ > > > Jacques > |
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In reply to this post by Anil Patel-3
Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving. Thanks and Regards Anil Patel HotWax Media Inc Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: > Jacques, > Why do you think so? > > It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working for years. > > In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business. > > Thanks and Regards > Anil Patel > HotWax Media Inc > Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" > > On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder... >> >> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html >> >> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... >> >> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) >> >> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ >> >> Jacques >> > |
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Hi Anil:
I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally: First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository. Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training. And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand. Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL! Regards, Ruth ---------------------------------------------------- Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" [hidden email] Regards, Ruth Anil Patel wrote: > Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html > > One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" > > I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving. > > Thanks and Regards > Anil Patel > HotWax Media Inc > Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" > > On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: > > >> Jacques, >> Why do you think so? >> >> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working for years. >> >> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business. >> >> Thanks and Regards >> Anil Patel >> HotWax Media Inc >> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >> >> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >> >>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder... >>> >>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html >>> >>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... >>> >>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) >>> >>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ >>> >>> Jacques >>> >>> > > > |
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I'm replying to the list in general regarding the misrepresentations and
outright lies in this reply - not Ruth personally... Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new > adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call > them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by > sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues > like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation > and training. Before anyone on the list believes any of this nonsense, I would encourage you to do a quick review of recent mailing list activity, the commit logs, and Jira. A review of the user mailing list will show that new adopters arrive on this list regularly. Release management follows a well documented plan and that plan has been followed by the developer community. The commit logs will show tremendous activity in the area of quality control (unit tests). A review of Jira will show that bug reports are reviewed and fixed regularly. There is a wealth of documentation on the Wiki, and in video and book form. In summary, the project continues to grow and improve. No one has their head stuck in the sand. Anyone who says otherwise is simply ignoring the facts. -Adrian |
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On Feb 24, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Adrian Crum wrote: > I'm replying to the list in general regarding the misrepresentations and outright lies in this reply - not Ruth personally... > > Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training. > > Before anyone on the list believes any of this nonsense, I would encourage you to do a quick review of recent mailing list activity, the commit logs, and Jira. > > A review of the user mailing list will show that new adopters arrive on this list regularly. Release management follows a well documented plan and that plan has been followed by the developer community. The commit logs will show tremendous activity in the area of quality control (unit tests). A review of Jira will show that bug reports are reviewed and fixed regularly. There is a wealth of documentation on the Wiki, and in video and book form. > > In summary, the project continues to grow and improve. No one has their head stuck in the sand. Anyone who says otherwise is simply ignoring the facts. Thank you for a voice of reason Adrian. Usually when people ignore the facts and make assertions otherwise, especially when done vehemently and repeatedly, there is something they are trying to get other people to believe, and along with that something they think people will do if they believe it. What I'm wondering about Ruth's comments over recent weeks is: 1. What is it that Ruth wants us to believe? 2. What is it that Ruth wants us to do based on that belief? Ruth: could you help us out here? Otherwise, I guess we can start guessing... -David |
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In reply to this post by Ruth Hoffman-2
Ruth,
Thanks for your response. See my comments inline. Thanks and Regards Anil Patel HotWax Media Inc Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" On Feb 24, 2010, at 2:31 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi Anil: > I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally: I know this by now :) > > First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository. Ofbiz community is community of software developers. And I am proud to be one of them. You will be happy to know that we (HotWax Media) have enjoyed (not just survived) working on Ofbiz. I will not predict future, but I don't see any issues coming up in near future. Bringing product to market is commercial activity that is carried out by group of people in order to achieve some monitory (and few other) goals. With respect to Ofbiz, responsibility like bringing product to market is something that service providers do. > > Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training. I have been long enough in Ofbiz community to clearly understand that, release management, quality control, documentation and training can be much better achieved if service providers take the responsibility and make some kind of business on top of it. Like you are working on writing the book (Thanks for that). Its value add service that you are selling, you may be having some other business plan around it. Bottom line is, It has to make money for you. Release management and providing documentation takes lots of resources. I don't think any provider will be able to provide them unless there was something else that made money for them. e.g Lets say your book is based on 9.04 release branch. In order for you to make money on your effort its important that people use 9.04, so naturally you will support 9.04 and when you release next edition of your book that support 10.04, you may decide to provide upgrade service, may be for free or some fee. > > And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand. HotWax media sells services for implementing Ofbiz to various kind of businesses. In the process we add new features, test some, add Unit tests for few, etc. Part of what we do is contributed to community and part does not make into community for various reasons. All these things that we do helps others in community in someway. Similarly other providers contribute tons of things. All these activities have helped Ofbiz community to not only survive but grow overtime. > > Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only one out there? Thanks for providing services and helping users. But please know that "I don't appreciate you saying that you are the only one". > Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL! I don't know what you want to communicate, but I do see your services are something that helps grow Ofbiz ecosystem. > > > Regards, > Ruth > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" > [hidden email] > > > Regards, > Ruth > > Anil Patel wrote: >> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html >> >> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" >> I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving. >> >> Thanks and Regards >> Anil Patel >> HotWax Media Inc >> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >> >> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: >> >> >>> Jacques, >>> Why do you think so? >>> >>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working for years. >>> >>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business. >>> >>> Thanks and Regards >>> Anil Patel >>> HotWax Media Inc >>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>> >>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder... >>>> >>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html >>>> >>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... >>>> >>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) >>>> >>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ >>>> >>>> Jacques >>>> >>>> >> >> >> |
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In reply to this post by David E. Jones-2
I think this discussion is unnecessary.
Ruth is an audience. I guess she wants to see exciting shows, fighting, blooding. Unfortunately, the open source game is not that exciting for end users. Why OFBiz will win this game? Very simple, making all the talents to develop in one location is much expensive than OFBiz current development model. 在 2010-02-24三的 13:10 -0700，David E Jones写道： > On Feb 24, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Adrian Crum wrote: > > > I'm replying to the list in general regarding the misrepresentations and outright lies in this reply - not Ruth personally... > > > > Ruth Hoffman wrote: > >> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training. > > > > Before anyone on the list believes any of this nonsense, I would encourage you to do a quick review of recent mailing list activity, the commit logs, and Jira. > > > > A review of the user mailing list will show that new adopters arrive on this list regularly. Release management follows a well documented plan and that plan has been followed by the developer community. The commit logs will show tremendous activity in the area of quality control (unit tests). A review of Jira will show that bug reports are reviewed and fixed regularly. There is a wealth of documentation on the Wiki, and in video and book form. > > > > In summary, the project continues to grow and improve. No one has their head stuck in the sand. Anyone who says otherwise is simply ignoring the facts. > > Thank you for a voice of reason Adrian. > > Usually when people ignore the facts and make assertions otherwise, especially when done vehemently and repeatedly, there is something they are trying to get other people to believe, and along with that something they think people will do if they believe it. > > What I'm wondering about Ruth's comments over recent weeks is: > > 1. What is it that Ruth wants us to believe? > 2. What is it that Ruth wants us to do based on that belief? > > Ruth: could you help us out here? > > Otherwise, I guess we can start guessing... > > -David > |
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In reply to this post by David E. Jones-2
Take a look at sage. btw they are doing a lot of advertising right now.
Shi Jinghai sent the following on 2/24/2010 12:39 PM: > I think this discussion is unnecessary. > > Ruth is an audience. I guess she wants to see exciting shows, fighting, > blooding. > > Unfortunately, the open source game is not that exciting for end users. > > Why OFBiz will win this game? > Very simple, making all the talents to develop in one location is much > expensive than OFBiz current development model. > > > 在 2010-02-24三的 13:10 -0700，David E Jones写道： >> On Feb 24, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Adrian Crum wrote: >> >>> I'm replying to the list in general regarding the misrepresentations and outright lies in this reply - not Ruth personally... >>> >>> Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training. >>> Before anyone on the list believes any of this nonsense, I would encourage you to do a quick review of recent mailing list activity, the commit logs, and Jira. >>> >>> A review of the user mailing list will show that new adopters arrive on this list regularly. Release management follows a well documented plan and that plan has been followed by the developer community. The commit logs will show tremendous activity in the area of quality control (unit tests). A review of Jira will show that bug reports are reviewed and fixed regularly. There is a wealth of documentation on the Wiki, and in video and book form. >>> >>> In summary, the project continues to grow and improve. No one has their head stuck in the sand. Anyone who says otherwise is simply ignoring the facts. >> Thank you for a voice of reason Adrian. >> >> Usually when people ignore the facts and make assertions otherwise, especially when done vehemently and repeatedly, there is something they are trying to get other people to believe, and along with that something they think people will do if they believe it. >> >> What I'm wondering about Ruth's comments over recent weeks is: >> >> 1. What is it that Ruth wants us to believe? >> 2. What is it that Ruth wants us to do based on that belief? >> >> Ruth: could you help us out here? >> >> Otherwise, I guess we can start guessing... >> >> -David >> > > |
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In reply to this post by Anil Patel-3
Hi Anil,
I'm pretty confident about that too, and anyway I like much more OFBiz way than the other "Open" ERPs around, openERP included. The reason I sent this link is maybe because I recently lost 2 contracts winned by openERP VARs. They were a bit cheaper but I think it's not the main reason. Here in France, openERP has a much larger cover than OFBiz, as they call it: a network of partners. And this is certainly the main reason. I had also some feebacks (CTOs) which seem to say that all is not perfect in openERP world (the underneath world, I mean). The main problem seems to be their difficulties to get modules staying consistent, the OSCommerce syndrome I will say... But here is python tough, not PHP 4.0... Jacques From: "Anil Patel" <[hidden email]> > Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html > > One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community > to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" > > I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by > corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get > funding to keep project alive and moving. > > Thanks and Regards > Anil Patel > HotWax Media Inc > Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" > > On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: > >> Jacques, >> Why do you think so? >> >> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it >> working for years. >> >> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to >> providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business. >> >> Thanks and Regards >> Anil Patel >> HotWax Media Inc >> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >> >> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder... >>> >>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html >>> >>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... >>> >>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) >>> >>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ >>> >>> Jacques >>> >> > > |
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In reply to this post by Ruth Hoffman-2
I have to agree with Ruth on this one. The question is, what is the
OFBiz "community", is it users or developers? The question has lots of implications, and deserves careful thought. If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment. I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution. Yet he loses contracts to OpenERP. Why? Partly because OpenERP looks more polished and finished, and appearances are in fact important. However, the bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more inviting to users, who are not developers). The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it. For that, you need a developer, and we are those developers. So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time. Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards. You have the cart driving the horse. Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers. Even low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away for free, initially. In my business, we give away lots of free samples because it it the best way to get people converted to our products. People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't. You have to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages are. OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface-- the very things that Ruth complains about. Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice than most. Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially. If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited applications. Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest of the body will follow. use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is zero, so the learning process is encouraged. Soon, the customer is fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there are some customizations they would like to make. Cha-ching! Customers create themselves. Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of the reverse. That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. From a user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later, while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later. Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community? The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote. On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi Anil: > I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol > towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally: > > First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for > OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software > developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more > importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development > and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository. > > Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new > adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call > them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by > sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues > like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation > and training. > > And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you > brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the > health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? > Maybe I don't understand. > > Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" > that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only > one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to > encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of > Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make > me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL! > > > Regards, > Ruth > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" > [hidden email] > > > Regards, > Ruth > > Anil Patel wrote: > > Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html > > > > One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" > > > > I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > Anil Patel > > HotWax Media Inc > > Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" > > > > On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: > > > > > >> Jacques, > >> Why do you think so? > >> > >> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working for years. > >> > >> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business. > >> > >> Thanks and Regards > >> Anil Patel > >> HotWax Media Inc > >> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" > >> > >> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder... > >>> > >>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html > >>> > >>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... > >>> > >>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) > >>> > >>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ > >>> > >>> Jacques > >>> > >>> > > > > > > -- Matt Warnock <[hidden email]> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. |
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Matt,
A really simple thing I am trying to say here is, There is fundamental different between Ofbiz and OpenERP. OpenERP is like Solaris, A Software based on Open Source software that is managed by One Company. Apache Ofbiz is like Linux, Its good software, but without RedHat or Ubuntu. People will find it difficult to use it. We need RedHat's of Ofbiz to come up, At that point users will be able to get what you get from OpenERP. There are companies who have build software using Ofbiz, e.g Neogia and OpenTaps. I am not saying anything about how good they are or anything. There are some who have build closed source software on top of Ofbiz as well. Thanks and Regards Anil Patel HotWax Media Inc Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" On Feb 24, 2010, at 6:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: > I have to agree with Ruth on this one. The question is, what is the > OFBiz "community", is it users or developers? The question has lots of > implications, and deserves careful thought. > > If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing > to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a > product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X > in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public > offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment. > > I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution. Yet he loses > contracts to OpenERP. Why? Partly because OpenERP looks more polished > and finished, and appearances are in fact important. However, the > bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more > inviting to users, who are not developers). > > The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you > want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it. For that, you need > a developer, and we are those developers. So if you want an OFBiz > solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, > don't waste our time. > > Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards. You have the cart driving > the horse. Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward > marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy > records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers. Even > low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss > leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away > for free, initially. In my business, we give away lots of free samples > because it it the best way to get people converted to our products. > People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also > how much it is going to cost. > > As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at > OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't. You have > to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz > better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages > are. OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface-- > the very things that Ruth complains about. > > Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial > difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice > than most. Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works > against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially. > > If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it > and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited > applications. Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest > of the body will follow. use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost > (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is > zero, so the learning process is encouraged. Soon, the customer is > fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there > are some customizations they would like to make. Cha-ching! Customers > create themselves. Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more > customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of > the reverse. > > That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. From a > user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later, > while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later. > Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community? > The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote. > > On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> Hi Anil: >> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol >> towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally: >> >> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for >> OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software >> developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more >> importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development >> and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository. >> >> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new >> adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call >> them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by >> sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues >> like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation >> and training. >> >> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you >> brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the >> health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? >> Maybe I don't understand. >> >> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" >> that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only >> one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to >> encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of >> Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make >> me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL! >> >> >> Regards, >> Ruth >> >> ---------------------------------------------------- >> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" >> [hidden email] >> >> >> Regards, >> Ruth >> >> Anil Patel wrote: >>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html >>> >>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" >>> >>> I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving. >>> >>> Thanks and Regards >>> Anil Patel >>> HotWax Media Inc >>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>> >>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Jacques, >>>> Why do you think so? >>>> >>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working for years. >>>> >>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business. >>>> >>>> Thanks and Regards >>>> Anil Patel >>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>> >>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder... >>>>> >>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html >>>>> >>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... >>>>> >>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) >>>>> >>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ >>>>> >>>>> Jacques >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > > > -- > Matt Warnock <[hidden email]> > RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. > |
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In reply to this post by Matt Warnock
Thanks Matt,
This is mostly true, but how to achieve that is another thing... Also it seems that it's not specific to OFBiz among ASF projects, though of course OFBiz is atypical as an Apache TLP project. As Anil outlined we need our Canonical (or Red Hat if you prefer ;). Though we could also wonder why this has not appeared so far. I guess the ASF licence is one clue. Also is there an Apache TLP project which is doing better than us on this aspect? Is it not rather because of the "ASF business model" (if we can think about a business model for a fundation..) that things stay as they are: IBM uses HTTPD and Geronimo, ServiceMix/ActiveMQ are backed by Progress Software/FUSE, Jackrabbit has Magniolia and Day, etc. but I think there is never a sole company behing an Apache Project, by design: it would not be accepted. What are really these communities around our competitors? BTW it's from a link Anil gave that I found how the ASF is viewed from a marketing expert at Canonical http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10159925-16.html?tag=mncol;txt One thing he does not speak much about though is that there are dozens of projects at the ASF. So we can't expect the ASF to do the marketing for us. There has been already a huge marketing effort for a year (yes, huge for the community). We are now facing new competitors like Magento on the eCommerce side and openERP on the backend. Let's see how things will turn on the long term, exciting isn'it? BTW as Anil (and you implicitly) said, I'm also persuaded that OFBiz community has a sustainable model because 1) Nobody (but the ASF) owns OFBiz 2) We don't need to feed share holders 3) We have a very good data model 4) We sit on the J2EE paradigm 5) The community is active ... Jacques From: "Matt Warnock" <[hidden email]> >I have to agree with Ruth on this one. The question is, what is the > OFBiz "community", is it users or developers? The question has lots of > implications, and deserves careful thought. > > If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing > to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a > product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X > in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public > offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment. > > I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution. Yet he loses > contracts to OpenERP. Why? Partly because OpenERP looks more polished > and finished, and appearances are in fact important. However, the > bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more > inviting to users, who are not developers). > > The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you > want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it. For that, you need > a developer, and we are those developers. So if you want an OFBiz > solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, > don't waste our time. > > Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards. You have the cart driving > the horse. Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward > marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy > records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers. Even > low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss > leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away > for free, initially. In my business, we give away lots of free samples > because it it the best way to get people converted to our products. > People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also > how much it is going to cost. > > As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at > OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't. You have > to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz > better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages > are. OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface-- > the very things that Ruth complains about. > > Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial > difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice > than most. Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works > against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially. > > If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it > and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited > applications. Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest > of the body will follow. use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost > (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is > zero, so the learning process is encouraged. Soon, the customer is > fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there > are some customizations they would like to make. Cha-ching! Customers > create themselves. Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more > customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of > the reverse. > > That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. From a > user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later, > while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later. > Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community? > The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote. > > On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> Hi Anil: >> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol >> towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally: >> >> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for >> OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software >> developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more >> importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development >> and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository. >> >> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new >> adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call >> them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by >> sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues >> like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation >> and training. >> >> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you >> brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the >> health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? >> Maybe I don't understand. >> >> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" >> that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only >> one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to >> encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of >> Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make >> me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL! >> >> >> Regards, >> Ruth >> >> ---------------------------------------------------- >> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" >> [hidden email] >> >> >> Regards, >> Ruth >> >> Anil Patel wrote: >> > Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html >> > >> > One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage >> > community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software >> > development" >> > >> > I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by >> > corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get >> > funding to keep project alive and moving. >> > >> > Thanks and Regards >> > Anil Patel >> > HotWax Media Inc >> > Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >> > >> > On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: >> > >> > >> >> Jacques, >> >> Why do you think so? >> >> >> >> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it >> >> working for years. >> >> >> >> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to >> >> providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business. >> >> >> >> Thanks and Regards >> >> Anil Patel >> >> HotWax Media Inc >> >> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >> >> >> >> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder... >> >>> >> >>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html >> >>> >> >>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... >> >>> >> >>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) >> >>> >> >>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ >> >>> >> >>> Jacques >> >>> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > Matt Warnock <[hidden email]> > RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. > |
Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake? (was: Re: OpenERP fund raising)
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In reply to this post by Matt Warnock
Matt, You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that. Perhaps that was a mistake? About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read it). Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers never contribute back to the project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the most part. On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other way? So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related to it please see my blog: http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/ There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of particular interest: http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to get the time of day from technology press folks? -David On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: > I have to agree with Ruth on this one. The question is, what is the > OFBiz "community", is it users or developers? The question has lots of > implications, and deserves careful thought. > > If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing > to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a > product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X > in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public > offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment. > > I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution. Yet he loses > contracts to OpenERP. Why? Partly because OpenERP looks more polished > and finished, and appearances are in fact important. However, the > bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more > inviting to users, who are not developers). > > The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you > want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it. For that, you need > a developer, and we are those developers. So if you want an OFBiz > solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, > don't waste our time. > > Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards. You have the cart driving > the horse. Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward > marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy > records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers. Even > low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss > leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away > for free, initially. In my business, we give away lots of free samples > because it it the best way to get people converted to our products. > People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also > how much it is going to cost. > > As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at > OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't. You have > to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz > better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages > are. OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface-- > the very things that Ruth complains about. > > Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial > difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice > than most. Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works > against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially. > > If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it > and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited > applications. Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest > of the body will follow. use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost > (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is > zero, so the learning process is encouraged. Soon, the customer is > fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there > are some customizations they would like to make. Cha-ching! Customers > create themselves. Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more > customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of > the reverse. > > That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. From a > user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later, > while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later. > Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community? > The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote. > > On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> Hi Anil: >> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol >> towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally: >> >> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for >> OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software >> developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more >> importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development >> and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository. >> >> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new >> adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call >> them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by >> sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues >> like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation >> and training. >> >> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you >> brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the >> health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? >> Maybe I don't understand. >> >> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" >> that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only >> one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to >> encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of >> Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make >> me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL! >> >> >> Regards, >> Ruth >> >> ---------------------------------------------------- >> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" >> [hidden email] >> >> >> Regards, >> Ruth >> >> Anil Patel wrote: >>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html >>> >>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" >>> >>> I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving. >>> >>> Thanks and Regards >>> Anil Patel >>> HotWax Media Inc >>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>> >>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Jacques, >>>> Why do you think so? >>>> >>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working for years. >>>> >>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business. >>>> >>>> Thanks and Regards >>>> Anil Patel >>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>> >>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder... >>>>> >>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html >>>>> >>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... >>>>> >>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) >>>>> >>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ >>>>> >>>>> Jacques >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > > > -- > Matt Warnock <[hidden email]> > RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. > |
Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?
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David:
It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time. Ruth David E Jones wrote: > Matt, > > You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that. > > Perhaps that was a mistake? > > About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read it). > > Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers never contribute back to the project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the most part. > > On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other way? > > So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related to it please see my blog: > > http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/ > > There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of particular interest: > > http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html > > So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to get the time of day from technology press folks? > > -David > > > On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: > > >> I have to agree with Ruth on this one. The question is, what is the >> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers? The question has lots of >> implications, and deserves careful thought. >> >> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing >> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a >> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X >> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public >> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment. >> >> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution. Yet he loses >> contracts to OpenERP. Why? Partly because OpenERP looks more polished >> and finished, and appearances are in fact important. However, the >> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more >> inviting to users, who are not developers). >> >> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you >> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it. For that, you need >> a developer, and we are those developers. So if you want an OFBiz >> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, >> don't waste our time. >> >> Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards. You have the cart driving >> the horse. Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward >> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy >> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers. Even >> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss >> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away >> for free, initially. In my business, we give away lots of free samples >> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products. >> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also >> how much it is going to cost. >> >> As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at >> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't. You have >> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz >> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages >> are. OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface-- >> the very things that Ruth complains about. >> >> Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial >> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice >> than most. Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works >> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially. >> >> If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it >> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited >> applications. Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest >> of the body will follow. use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost >> (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is >> zero, so the learning process is encouraged. Soon, the customer is >> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there >> are some customizations they would like to make. Cha-ching! Customers >> create themselves. Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more >> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of >> the reverse. >> >> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. From a >> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later, >> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later. >> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community? >> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote. >> >> On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> >>> Hi Anil: >>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol >>> towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally: >>> >>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for >>> OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software >>> developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more >>> importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development >>> and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository. >>> >>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new >>> adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call >>> them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by >>> sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues >>> like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation >>> and training. >>> >>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you >>> brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the >>> health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? >>> Maybe I don't understand. >>> >>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" >>> that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only >>> one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to >>> encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of >>> Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make >>> me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL! >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Ruth >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" >>> [hidden email] >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Ruth >>> >>> Anil Patel wrote: >>> >>>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html >>>> >>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" >>>> >>>> I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving. >>>> >>>> Thanks and Regards >>>> Anil Patel >>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>> >>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Jacques, >>>>> Why do you think so? >>>>> >>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working for years. >>>>> >>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>> Anil Patel >>>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder... >>>>>> >>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html >>>>>> >>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... >>>>>> >>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) >>>>>> >>>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Jacques >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >> -- >> Matt Warnock <[hidden email]> >> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. >> >> > > > |
Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?
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How? -David On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > David: > It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time. > > Ruth > > David E Jones wrote: >> Matt, >> >> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that. >> >> Perhaps that was a mistake? >> >> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read it). >> >> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers never contribute back to the project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the most part. >> >> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other way? >> >> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related to it please see my blog: >> >> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/ >> >> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of particular interest: >> >> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html >> >> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to get the time of day from technology press folks? >> >> -David >> >> >> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: >> >> >>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one. The question is, what is the >>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers? The question has lots of >>> implications, and deserves careful thought. >>> >>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing >>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a >>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X >>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public >>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment. >>> >>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution. Yet he loses >>> contracts to OpenERP. Why? Partly because OpenERP looks more polished >>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important. However, the >>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more >>> inviting to users, who are not developers). >>> >>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you >>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it. For that, you need >>> a developer, and we are those developers. So if you want an OFBiz >>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, >>> don't waste our time. >>> Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards. You have the cart driving >>> the horse. Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward >>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy >>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers. Even >>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss >>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away >>> for free, initially. In my business, we give away lots of free samples >>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products. >>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also >>> how much it is going to cost. >>> As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at >>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't. You have >>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz >>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages >>> are. OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface-- >>> the very things that Ruth complains about. >>> Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial >>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice >>> than most. Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works >>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially. >>> If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it >>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited >>> applications. Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest >>> of the body will follow. use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost >>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is >>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged. Soon, the customer is >>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there >>> are some customizations they would like to make. Cha-ching! Customers >>> create themselves. Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more >>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of >>> the reverse. >>> >>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. From a >>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later, >>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later. >>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community? >>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote. >>> On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Anil: >>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally: >>>> >>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository. >>>> >>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training. >>>> >>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand. >>>> >>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL! >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Ruth >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" >>>> [hidden email] >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Ruth >>>> >>>> Anil Patel wrote: >>>> >>>>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html >>>>> >>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" >>>>> I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>> Anil Patel >>>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Jacques, >>>>>> Why do you think so? >>>>>> >>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working for years. >>>>>> >>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>>> Anil Patel >>>>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> -- >>> Matt Warnock <[hidden email]> >>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. >>> >>> >> >> >> |
Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?
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Hi David:
Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source, Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle. (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html) Just my opinion. Ruth David E Jones wrote: > How? > > -David > > > On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > > >> David: >> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time. >> >> Ruth >> >> David E Jones wrote: >> >>> Matt, >>> >>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that. >>> >>> Perhaps that was a mistake? >>> >>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read it). >>> >>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers never contribute back to the project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the most part. >>> >>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other way? >>> >>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related to it please see my blog: >>> >>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of particular interest: >>> >>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html >>> >>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to get the time of day from technology press folks? >>> >>> -David >>> >>> >>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one. The question is, what is the >>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers? The question has lots of >>>> implications, and deserves careful thought. >>>> >>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing >>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a >>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X >>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public >>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment. >>>> >>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution. Yet he loses >>>> contracts to OpenERP. Why? Partly because OpenERP looks more polished >>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important. However, the >>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more >>>> inviting to users, who are not developers). >>>> >>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you >>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it. For that, you need >>>> a developer, and we are those developers. So if you want an OFBiz >>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, >>>> don't waste our time. >>>> Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards. You have the cart driving >>>> the horse. Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward >>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy >>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers. Even >>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss >>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away >>>> for free, initially. In my business, we give away lots of free samples >>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products. >>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also >>>> how much it is going to cost. >>>> As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at >>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't. You have >>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz >>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages >>>> are. OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface-- >>>> the very things that Ruth complains about. >>>> Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial >>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice >>>> than most. Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works >>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially. >>>> If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it >>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited >>>> applications. Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest >>>> of the body will follow. use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost >>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is >>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged. Soon, the customer is >>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there >>>> are some customizations they would like to make. Cha-ching! Customers >>>> create themselves. Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more >>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of >>>> the reverse. >>>> >>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. From a >>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later, >>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later. >>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community? >>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote. >>>> On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Anil: >>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally: >>>>> >>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository. >>>>> >>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training. >>>>> >>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand. >>>>> >>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Ruth >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" >>>>> [hidden email] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Ruth >>>>> >>>>> Anil Patel wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html >>>>>> >>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" >>>>>> I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>>> Anil Patel >>>>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jacques, >>>>>>> Why do you think so? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working for years. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>>>> Anil Patel >>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Matt Warnock <[hidden email]> >>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > > > |
Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?
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Donations can only be received by the ASF, not by the OFBiz project specifically.
Jacopo On Feb 25, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi David: > > Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source, Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle. (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html) > > Just my opinion. > Ruth > > David E Jones wrote: >> How? >> >> -David >> >> >> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> >> >>> David: >>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time. >>> >>> Ruth >>> >>> David E Jones wrote: >>> >>>> Matt, >>>> >>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that. >>>> >>>> Perhaps that was a mistake? >>>> >>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read it). >>>> >>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers never contribute back to the project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the most part. >>>> >>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other way? >>>> >>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related to it please see my blog: >>>> >>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/ >>>> >>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of particular interest: >>>> >>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html >>>> >>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to get the time of day from technology press folks? >>>> >>>> -David >>>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one. The question is, what is the >>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers? The question has lots of >>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought. >>>>> >>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing >>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a >>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X >>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public >>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment. >>>>> >>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution. Yet he loses >>>>> contracts to OpenERP. Why? Partly because OpenERP looks more polished >>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important. However, the >>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more >>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers). >>>>> >>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you >>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it. For that, you need >>>>> a developer, and we are those developers. So if you want an OFBiz >>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, >>>>> don't waste our time. Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards. You have the cart driving >>>>> the horse. Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward >>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy >>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers. Even >>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss >>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away >>>>> for free, initially. In my business, we give away lots of free samples >>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products. >>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also >>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at >>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't. You have >>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz >>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages >>>>> are. OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface-- >>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about. Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial >>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice >>>>> than most. Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works >>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially. If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it >>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited >>>>> applications. Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest >>>>> of the body will follow. use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost >>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is >>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged. Soon, the customer is >>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there >>>>> are some customizations they would like to make. Cha-ching! Customers >>>>> create themselves. Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more >>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of >>>>> the reverse. >>>>> >>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. From a >>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later, >>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later. >>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community? >>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote. On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Anil: >>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally: >>>>>> >>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository. >>>>>> >>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training. >>>>>> >>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand. >>>>>> >>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Ruth >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" >>>>>> [hidden email] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Ruth >>>>>> >>>>>> Anil Patel wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>>>> Anil Patel >>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jacques, >>>>>>>> Why do you think so? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working for years. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>>>>> Anil Patel >>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Matt Warnock <[hidden email]> >>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >> >> |
Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?
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In reply to this post by Ruth Hoffman-2
Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any sponsor links. Am I missing something? Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different guidelines and restrictions. Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere, SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a single company. So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do? Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain, test, release, document, etc is staggering. So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm confused... -David On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi David: > > Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source, Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle. (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html) > > Just my opinion. > Ruth > > David E Jones wrote: >> How? >> >> -David >> >> >> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> >> >>> David: >>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time. >>> >>> Ruth >>> >>> David E Jones wrote: >>> >>>> Matt, >>>> >>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that. >>>> >>>> Perhaps that was a mistake? >>>> >>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read it). >>>> >>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers never contribute back to the project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the most part. >>>> >>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other way? >>>> >>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related to it please see my blog: >>>> >>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/ >>>> >>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of particular interest: >>>> >>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html >>>> >>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to get the time of day from technology press folks? >>>> >>>> -David >>>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one. The question is, what is the >>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers? The question has lots of >>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought. >>>>> >>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing >>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a >>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X >>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public >>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment. >>>>> >>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution. Yet he loses >>>>> contracts to OpenERP. Why? Partly because OpenERP looks more polished >>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important. However, the >>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more >>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers). >>>>> >>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you >>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it. For that, you need >>>>> a developer, and we are those developers. So if you want an OFBiz >>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, >>>>> don't waste our time. Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards. You have the cart driving >>>>> the horse. Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward >>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy >>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers. Even >>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss >>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away >>>>> for free, initially. In my business, we give away lots of free samples >>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products. >>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also >>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at >>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't. You have >>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz >>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages >>>>> are. OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface-- >>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about. Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial >>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice >>>>> than most. Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works >>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially. If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it >>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited >>>>> applications. Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest >>>>> of the body will follow. use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost >>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is >>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged. Soon, the customer is >>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there >>>>> are some customizations they would like to make. Cha-ching! Customers >>>>> create themselves. Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more >>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of >>>>> the reverse. >>>>> >>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. From a >>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later, >>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later. >>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community? >>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote. On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Anil: >>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally: >>>>>> >>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository. >>>>>> >>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training. >>>>>> >>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand. >>>>>> >>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Ruth >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" >>>>>> [hidden email] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Ruth >>>>>> >>>>>> Anil Patel wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>>>> Anil Patel >>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jacques, >>>>>>>> Why do you think so? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working for years. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>>>>> Anil Patel >>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Matt Warnock <[hidden email]> >>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >> >> |
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