OpenERP fund raising

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

David E Jones wrote:
> Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any sponsor links. Am I missing something?
>  
No. Look closer.
> Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different guidelines and restrictions.
>
> Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere, SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a single company.
>  
Your point is?
> So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do?
>
> Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain, test, release, document, etc is staggering.
>  
Really? How so? Each project has the same challenges: build, maintain,
test, release, document.
> So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm confused...
>  
Look again. Consider taking a more casual, relaxed attitude while
browsing the site might help you to see what I see.
Ruth

> -David
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>  
>> Hi David:
>>
>> Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source, Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle. (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)
>>
>> Just my opinion.
>> Ruth
>>
>> David E Jones wrote:
>>    
>>> How?
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>      
>>>> David:
>>>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
>>>>
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>>>> Matt,
>>>>>
>>>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>>>>>
>>>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read it).
>>>>>
>>>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers never contribute back to the project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the most part.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other way?
>>>>>
>>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of particular interest:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>>>>>
>>>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to get the time of day from technology press folks?
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>      
>>>>>          
>>>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>>>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has lots of
>>>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing
>>>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a
>>>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X
>>>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>>>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet he loses
>>>>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more polished
>>>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>>>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you
>>>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that, you need
>>>>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>>>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise,
>>>>>> don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>>>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>>>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy
>>>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>>>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss
>>>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away
>>>>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free samples
>>>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>>>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also
>>>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at
>>>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You have
>>>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz
>>>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages
>>>>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface--
>>>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice
>>>>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited
>>>>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest
>>>>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost
>>>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is
>>>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>>>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there
>>>>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!  Customers
>>>>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of
>>>>>> the reverse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell.  From a
>>>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>>>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>>>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community?
>>>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>          
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working  for years.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                          
>>>>>>>>>>                    
>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Warnock <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          
>>>>>>            
>>>>>      
>>>>>          
>>>  
>>>      
>
>
>  

[BJ Freeman]

Ruth I am someone you have to hit over the head to get me to see something
so if you could just link to what your refereeing to I might see it.
I scan the home page and did not see anything.

Ruth Hoffman sent the following on 2/25/2010 11:15 AM:

>
>
> David E Jones wrote:
>> Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any
>> sponsor links. Am I missing something?
>>  
> No. Look closer.
>> Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software
>> Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different
>> guidelines and restrictions.
>>
>> Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it
>> is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by
>> various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere,
>> SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a
>> single company.
>>  
> Your point is?
>> So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do?
>>
>> Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The
>> difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain,
>> test, release, document, etc is staggering.
>>  
> Really? How so? Each project has the same challenges: build, maintain,
> test, release, document.
>> So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm confused...
>>  
> Look again. Consider taking a more casual, relaxed attitude while
> browsing the site might help you to see what I see.
> Ruth
>> -David
>>
>>
>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> Hi David:
>>>
>>> Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source,
>>> Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle.
>>> (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)
>>>
>>> Just my opinion.
>>> Ruth
>>>
>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>    
>>>> How?
>>>>
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>      
>>>>> David:
>>>>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have
>>>>> community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy
>>>>> sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>          
>>>>>> Matt,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz,
>>>>>> and after technology investing recovered from the lull in
>>>>>> 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to
>>>>>> turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a
>>>>>> community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to
>>>>>> the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an
>>>>>> incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing
>>>>>> and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open
>>>>>> playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have
>>>>>> OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and
>>>>>> we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our
>>>>>> time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really
>>>>>> the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on
>>>>>> OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize...
>>>>>> and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced
>>>>>> with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts
>>>>>> whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of
>>>>>> pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it
>>>>>> harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no
>>>>>> documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read
>>>>>> it).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and
>>>>>> committers page and see how much overlap there is between them.
>>>>>> Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast
>>>>>> majority of service providers never contribute back to the
>>>>>> project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in
>>>>>> profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to
>>>>>> estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets
>>>>>> back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In
>>>>>> other words, most of the customization work is done by people who
>>>>>> don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or
>>>>>> any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the
>>>>>> most part.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just
>>>>>> because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create,
>>>>>> then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be
>>>>>> any other way?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people
>>>>>> want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
>>>>>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to
>>>>>> help build this thing, and for some history about that and
>>>>>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be
>>>>>> of particular interest:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of
>>>>>> this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the
>>>>>> message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the
>>>>>> commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably
>>>>>> much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and
>>>>>> significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to
>>>>>> get the time of day from technology press folks?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                
>>>>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>>>>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has
>>>>>>> lots of
>>>>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are
>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1)
>>>>>>> they see a
>>>>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least
>>>>>>> 10-100X
>>>>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>>>>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet
>>>>>>> he loses
>>>>>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more
>>>>>>> polished
>>>>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>>>>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>>>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that,
>>>>>>> you need
>>>>>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>>>>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution--
>>>>>>> otherwise,
>>>>>>> don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is
>>>>>>> ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>>>>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>>>>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people
>>>>>>> to buy
>>>>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>>>>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the
>>>>>>> "loss
>>>>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it
>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free
>>>>>>> samples
>>>>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>>>>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get,
>>>>>>> and also
>>>>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you
>>>>>>> get that information (I looked hard at
>>>>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make
>>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those
>>>>>>> advantages
>>>>>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the
>>>>>>> surface--
>>>>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP
>>>>>>> solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>>>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder
>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>>>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz
>>>>>>> had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>>>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some
>>>>>>> limited
>>>>>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent,
>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the
>>>>>>> incremental cost
>>>>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and
>>>>>>> applications is
>>>>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>>>>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably,
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!
>>>>>>> Customers
>>>>>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>>>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you,
>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>> the reverse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell.
>>>>>>> From a
>>>>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>>>>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>>>>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user
>>>>>>> community?
>>>>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed,
>>>>>>> 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing
>>>>>>>> vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks
>>>>>>>> personally:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a
>>>>>>>> problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out
>>>>>>>> is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a
>>>>>>>> product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play
>>>>>>>> another day, than software development and copious amounts of
>>>>>>>> code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are
>>>>>>>> no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you
>>>>>>>> want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get
>>>>>>>> any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and
>>>>>>>> ignoring real world issues like release management, quality
>>>>>>>> control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since
>>>>>>>> you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help
>>>>>>>> promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is
>>>>>>>> that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a
>>>>>>>> "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz.
>>>>>>>> Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is
>>>>>>>> reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can
>>>>>>>> afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford
>>>>>>>> to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing
>>>>>>>> OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword
>>>>>>>> "myofbiz"
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>                            
>>>>>>>>> Here is another blog
>>>>>>>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are
>>>>>>>>> struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is,
>>>>>>>>> encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this
>>>>>>>>> issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven
>>>>>>>>> software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live
>>>>>>>>> longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open
>>>>>>>>> source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service
>>>>>>>>> providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and
>>>>>>>>> not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive
>>>>>>>>> and moving.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                                  
>>>>>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying
>>>>>>>>>> to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it
>>>>>>>>>> working  for years.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community.
>>>>>>>>>> In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to
>>>>>>>>>> providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building
>>>>>>>>>> their business.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                                        
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it
>>>>>>>>>>> seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the
>>>>>>>>>>> future...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not
>>>>>>>>>>> follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The strategy :
>>>>>>>>>>> http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                                              
>>>>>>>>>                                  
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Warnock <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>                
>>>>  
>>>>      
>>
>>
>>  
>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi BJ:

Of couse.Sorry.

http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html

At various times, this project has had support from Sabre (the airlines
consortium), Tibco and maybe some others. They do a really good job of
keeping all that out of sight.

Ruth

BJ Freeman wrote:

> Ruth I am someone you have to hit over the head to get me to see something
> so if you could just link to what your refereeing to I might see it.
> I scan the home page and did not see anything.
>
> Ruth Hoffman sent the following on 2/25/2010 11:15 AM:
>  
>> David E Jones wrote:
>>    
>>> Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any
>>> sponsor links. Am I missing something?
>>>  
>>>      
>> No. Look closer.
>>    
>>> Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software
>>> Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different
>>> guidelines and restrictions.
>>>
>>> Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it
>>> is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by
>>> various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere,
>>> SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a
>>> single company.
>>>  
>>>      
>> Your point is?
>>    
>>> So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do?
>>>
>>> Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The
>>> difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain,
>>> test, release, document, etc is staggering.
>>>  
>>>      
>> Really? How so? Each project has the same challenges: build, maintain,
>> test, release, document.
>>    
>>> So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm confused...
>>>  
>>>      
>> Look again. Consider taking a more casual, relaxed attitude while
>> browsing the site might help you to see what I see.
>> Ruth
>>    
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>      
>>>> Hi David:
>>>>
>>>> Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source,
>>>> Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle.
>>>> (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)
>>>>
>>>> Just my opinion.
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>>>> How?
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>      
>>>>>          
>>>>>> David:
>>>>>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have
>>>>>> community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy
>>>>>> sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>>          
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>> Matt,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz,
>>>>>>> and after technology investing recovered from the lull in
>>>>>>> 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to
>>>>>>> turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a
>>>>>>> community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to
>>>>>>> the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an
>>>>>>> incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing
>>>>>>> and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open
>>>>>>> playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have
>>>>>>> OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and
>>>>>>> we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our
>>>>>>> time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really
>>>>>>> the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on
>>>>>>> OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize...
>>>>>>> and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced
>>>>>>> with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts
>>>>>>> whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of
>>>>>>> pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it
>>>>>>> harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no
>>>>>>> documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read
>>>>>>> it).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and
>>>>>>> committers page and see how much overlap there is between them.
>>>>>>> Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast
>>>>>>> majority of service providers never contribute back to the
>>>>>>> project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in
>>>>>>> profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to
>>>>>>> estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets
>>>>>>> back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In
>>>>>>> other words, most of the customization work is done by people who
>>>>>>> don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or
>>>>>>> any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the
>>>>>>> most part.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just
>>>>>>> because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create,
>>>>>>> then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be
>>>>>>> any other way?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people
>>>>>>> want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
>>>>>>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to
>>>>>>> help build this thing, and for some history about that and
>>>>>>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be
>>>>>>> of particular interest:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of
>>>>>>> this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the
>>>>>>> message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the
>>>>>>> commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably
>>>>>>> much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and
>>>>>>> significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to
>>>>>>> get the time of day from technology press folks?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>>>>>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has
>>>>>>>> lots of
>>>>>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are
>>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1)
>>>>>>>> they see a
>>>>>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least
>>>>>>>> 10-100X
>>>>>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>>>>>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet
>>>>>>>> he loses
>>>>>>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more
>>>>>>>> polished
>>>>>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>>>>>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>>>>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that,
>>>>>>>> you need
>>>>>>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>>>>>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution--
>>>>>>>> otherwise,
>>>>>>>> don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is
>>>>>>>> ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>>>>>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>>>>>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people
>>>>>>>> to buy
>>>>>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>>>>>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the
>>>>>>>> "loss
>>>>>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it
>>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free
>>>>>>>> samples
>>>>>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>>>>>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get,
>>>>>>>> and also
>>>>>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you
>>>>>>>> get that information (I looked hard at
>>>>>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make
>>>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those
>>>>>>>> advantages
>>>>>>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the
>>>>>>>> surface--
>>>>>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP
>>>>>>>> solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>>>>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder
>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>>>>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz
>>>>>>>> had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>>>>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some
>>>>>>>> limited
>>>>>>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent,
>>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the
>>>>>>>> incremental cost
>>>>>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and
>>>>>>>> applications is
>>>>>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>>>>>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably,
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!
>>>>>>>> Customers
>>>>>>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>>>>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you,
>>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>>> the reverse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell.
>>>>>>>> From a
>>>>>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>>>>>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>>>>>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user
>>>>>>>> community?
>>>>>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed,
>>>>>>>> 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>>>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing
>>>>>>>>> vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks
>>>>>>>>> personally:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a
>>>>>>>>> problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out
>>>>>>>>> is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a
>>>>>>>>> product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play
>>>>>>>>> another day, than software development and copious amounts of
>>>>>>>>> code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are
>>>>>>>>> no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you
>>>>>>>>> want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get
>>>>>>>>> any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and
>>>>>>>>> ignoring real world issues like release management, quality
>>>>>>>>> control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since
>>>>>>>>> you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help
>>>>>>>>> promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is
>>>>>>>>> that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a
>>>>>>>>> "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz.
>>>>>>>>> Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is
>>>>>>>>> reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can
>>>>>>>>> afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford
>>>>>>>>> to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing
>>>>>>>>> OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword
>>>>>>>>> "myofbiz"
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>                            
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>> Here is another blog
>>>>>>>>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are
>>>>>>>>>> struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is,
>>>>>>>>>> encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this
>>>>>>>>>> issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven
>>>>>>>>>> software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live
>>>>>>>>>> longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open
>>>>>>>>>> source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service
>>>>>>>>>> providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and
>>>>>>>>>> not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive
>>>>>>>>>> and moving.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                                  
>>>>>>>>>>                    
>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying
>>>>>>>>>>> to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it
>>>>>>>>>>> working  for years.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community.
>>>>>>>>>>> In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to
>>>>>>>>>>> providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building
>>>>>>>>>>> their business.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                                        
>>>>>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it
>>>>>>>>>>>> seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> future...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not
>>>>>>>>>>>> follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The strategy :
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                                              
>>>>>>>>>>>>                        
>>>>>>>>>>                                  
>>>>>>>>>>                    
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Warnock <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>  
>>>>>      
>>>>>          
>>>  
>>>      
>
>
>  

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Maybe you meant this something like this?

http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/browser/tibco.html

BJ Freeman wrote:

> Ruth I am someone you have to hit over the head to get me to see something
> so if you could just link to what your refereeing to I might see it.
> I scan the home page and did not see anything.
>
> Ruth Hoffman sent the following on 2/25/2010 11:15 AM:
>  
>> David E Jones wrote:
>>    
>>> Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any
>>> sponsor links. Am I missing something?
>>>  
>>>      
>> No. Look closer.
>>    
>>> Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software
>>> Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different
>>> guidelines and restrictions.
>>>
>>> Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it
>>> is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by
>>> various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere,
>>> SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a
>>> single company.
>>>  
>>>      
>> Your point is?
>>    
>>> So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do?
>>>
>>> Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The
>>> difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain,
>>> test, release, document, etc is staggering.
>>>  
>>>      
>> Really? How so? Each project has the same challenges: build, maintain,
>> test, release, document.
>>    
>>> So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm confused...
>>>  
>>>      
>> Look again. Consider taking a more casual, relaxed attitude while
>> browsing the site might help you to see what I see.
>> Ruth
>>    
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>      
>>>> Hi David:
>>>>
>>>> Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source,
>>>> Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle.
>>>> (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)
>>>>
>>>> Just my opinion.
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>>>> How?
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>      
>>>>>          
>>>>>> David:
>>>>>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have
>>>>>> community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy
>>>>>> sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>>          
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>> Matt,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz,
>>>>>>> and after technology investing recovered from the lull in
>>>>>>> 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to
>>>>>>> turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a
>>>>>>> community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to
>>>>>>> the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an
>>>>>>> incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing
>>>>>>> and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open
>>>>>>> playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have
>>>>>>> OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and
>>>>>>> we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our
>>>>>>> time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really
>>>>>>> the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on
>>>>>>> OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize...
>>>>>>> and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced
>>>>>>> with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts
>>>>>>> whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of
>>>>>>> pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it
>>>>>>> harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no
>>>>>>> documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read
>>>>>>> it).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and
>>>>>>> committers page and see how much overlap there is between them.
>>>>>>> Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast
>>>>>>> majority of service providers never contribute back to the
>>>>>>> project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in
>>>>>>> profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to
>>>>>>> estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets
>>>>>>> back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In
>>>>>>> other words, most of the customization work is done by people who
>>>>>>> don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or
>>>>>>> any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the
>>>>>>> most part.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just
>>>>>>> because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create,
>>>>>>> then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be
>>>>>>> any other way?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people
>>>>>>> want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
>>>>>>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to
>>>>>>> help build this thing, and for some history about that and
>>>>>>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be
>>>>>>> of particular interest:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of
>>>>>>> this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the
>>>>>>> message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the
>>>>>>> commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably
>>>>>>> much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and
>>>>>>> significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to
>>>>>>> get the time of day from technology press folks?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>>>>>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has
>>>>>>>> lots of
>>>>>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are
>>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1)
>>>>>>>> they see a
>>>>>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least
>>>>>>>> 10-100X
>>>>>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>>>>>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet
>>>>>>>> he loses
>>>>>>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more
>>>>>>>> polished
>>>>>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>>>>>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>>>>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that,
>>>>>>>> you need
>>>>>>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>>>>>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution--
>>>>>>>> otherwise,
>>>>>>>> don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is
>>>>>>>> ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>>>>>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>>>>>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people
>>>>>>>> to buy
>>>>>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>>>>>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the
>>>>>>>> "loss
>>>>>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it
>>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free
>>>>>>>> samples
>>>>>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>>>>>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get,
>>>>>>>> and also
>>>>>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you
>>>>>>>> get that information (I looked hard at
>>>>>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make
>>>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those
>>>>>>>> advantages
>>>>>>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the
>>>>>>>> surface--
>>>>>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP
>>>>>>>> solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>>>>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder
>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>>>>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz
>>>>>>>> had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>>>>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some
>>>>>>>> limited
>>>>>>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent,
>>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the
>>>>>>>> incremental cost
>>>>>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and
>>>>>>>> applications is
>>>>>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>>>>>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably,
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!
>>>>>>>> Customers
>>>>>>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>>>>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you,
>>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>>> the reverse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell.
>>>>>>>> From a
>>>>>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>>>>>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>>>>>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user
>>>>>>>> community?
>>>>>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed,
>>>>>>>> 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>>>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing
>>>>>>>>> vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks
>>>>>>>>> personally:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a
>>>>>>>>> problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out
>>>>>>>>> is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a
>>>>>>>>> product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play
>>>>>>>>> another day, than software development and copious amounts of
>>>>>>>>> code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are
>>>>>>>>> no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you
>>>>>>>>> want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get
>>>>>>>>> any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and
>>>>>>>>> ignoring real world issues like release management, quality
>>>>>>>>> control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since
>>>>>>>>> you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help
>>>>>>>>> promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is
>>>>>>>>> that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a
>>>>>>>>> "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz.
>>>>>>>>> Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is
>>>>>>>>> reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can
>>>>>>>>> afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford
>>>>>>>>> to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing
>>>>>>>>> OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword
>>>>>>>>> "myofbiz"
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>                            
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>> Here is another blog
>>>>>>>>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are
>>>>>>>>>> struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is,
>>>>>>>>>> encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this
>>>>>>>>>> issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven
>>>>>>>>>> software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live
>>>>>>>>>> longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open
>>>>>>>>>> source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service
>>>>>>>>>> providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and
>>>>>>>>>> not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive
>>>>>>>>>> and moving.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                                  
>>>>>>>>>>                    
>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying
>>>>>>>>>>> to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it
>>>>>>>>>>> working  for years.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community.
>>>>>>>>>>> In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to
>>>>>>>>>>> providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building
>>>>>>>>>>> their business.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                                        
>>>>>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it
>>>>>>>>>>>> seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> future...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not
>>>>>>>>>>>> follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The strategy :
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                                              
>>>>>>>>>>>>                        
>>>>>>>>>>                                  
>>>>>>>>>>                    
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Warnock <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>  
>>>>>      
>>>>>          
>>>  
>>>      
>
>
>  

[Jacques Le Roux]

From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and
> concepts related to it please see my blog:

Who really want OFBiz  to be a commercial project? Not me for sure!
This is a visionnary project, not only at the technical level. It will take time to prove without the same means than commercial
projects. Of course this does not mean that nothing should change, but carefully.

Jacques

[Jacques Le Roux]

Google => site:directwebremoting.org sponsor

Jacques

From: "BJ Freeman" <[hidden email]>

> Ruth I am someone you have to hit over the head to get me to see something
> so if you could just link to what your refereeing to I might see it.
> I scan the home page and did not see anything.
>
> Ruth Hoffman sent the following on 2/25/2010 11:15 AM:
>>
>>
>> David E Jones wrote:
>>> Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any
>>> sponsor links. Am I missing something?
>>>  
>> No. Look closer.
>>> Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software
>>> Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different
>>> guidelines and restrictions.
>>>
>>> Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it
>>> is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by
>>> various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere,
>>> SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a
>>> single company.
>>>  
>> Your point is?
>>> So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do?
>>>
>>> Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The
>>> difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain,
>>> test, release, document, etc is staggering.
>>>  
>> Really? How so? Each project has the same challenges: build, maintain,
>> test, release, document.
>>> So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm confused...
>>>  
>> Look again. Consider taking a more casual, relaxed attitude while
>> browsing the site might help you to see what I see.
>> Ruth
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>> Hi David:
>>>>
>>>> Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source,
>>>> Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle.
>>>> (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)
>>>>
>>>> Just my opinion.
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>    
>>>>> How?
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>      
>>>>>> David:
>>>>>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have
>>>>>> community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy
>>>>>> sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>>          
>>>>>>> Matt,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz,
>>>>>>> and after technology investing recovered from the lull in
>>>>>>> 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to
>>>>>>> turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a
>>>>>>> community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to
>>>>>>> the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an
>>>>>>> incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing
>>>>>>> and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open
>>>>>>> playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have
>>>>>>> OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and
>>>>>>> we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our
>>>>>>> time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really
>>>>>>> the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on
>>>>>>> OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize...
>>>>>>> and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced
>>>>>>> with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts
>>>>>>> whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of
>>>>>>> pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it
>>>>>>> harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no
>>>>>>> documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read
>>>>>>> it).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and
>>>>>>> committers page and see how much overlap there is between them.
>>>>>>> Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast
>>>>>>> majority of service providers never contribute back to the
>>>>>>> project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in
>>>>>>> profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to
>>>>>>> estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets
>>>>>>> back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In
>>>>>>> other words, most of the customization work is done by people who
>>>>>>> don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or
>>>>>>> any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the
>>>>>>> most part.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just
>>>>>>> because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create,
>>>>>>> then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be
>>>>>>> any other way?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people
>>>>>>> want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
>>>>>>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to
>>>>>>> help build this thing, and for some history about that and
>>>>>>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be
>>>>>>> of particular interest:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of
>>>>>>> this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the
>>>>>>> message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the
>>>>>>> commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably
>>>>>>> much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and
>>>>>>> significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to
>>>>>>> get the time of day from technology press folks?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>>>>>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has
>>>>>>>> lots of
>>>>>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are
>>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1)
>>>>>>>> they see a
>>>>>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least
>>>>>>>> 10-100X
>>>>>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>>>>>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet
>>>>>>>> he loses
>>>>>>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more
>>>>>>>> polished
>>>>>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>>>>>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>>>>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that,
>>>>>>>> you need
>>>>>>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>>>>>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution--
>>>>>>>> otherwise,
>>>>>>>> don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is
>>>>>>>> ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>>>>>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>>>>>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people
>>>>>>>> to buy
>>>>>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>>>>>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the
>>>>>>>> "loss
>>>>>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it
>>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free
>>>>>>>> samples
>>>>>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>>>>>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get,
>>>>>>>> and also
>>>>>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you
>>>>>>>> get that information (I looked hard at
>>>>>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make
>>>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those
>>>>>>>> advantages
>>>>>>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the
>>>>>>>> surface--
>>>>>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP
>>>>>>>> solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>>>>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder
>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>>>>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz
>>>>>>>> had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>>>>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some
>>>>>>>> limited
>>>>>>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent,
>>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the
>>>>>>>> incremental cost
>>>>>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and
>>>>>>>> applications is
>>>>>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>>>>>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably,
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!
>>>>>>>> Customers
>>>>>>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>>>>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you,
>>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>>> the reverse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell.
>>>>>>>> From a
>>>>>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>>>>>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>>>>>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user
>>>>>>>> community?
>>>>>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed,
>>>>>>>> 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>>>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing
>>>>>>>>> vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks
>>>>>>>>> personally:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a
>>>>>>>>> problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out
>>>>>>>>> is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a
>>>>>>>>> product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play
>>>>>>>>> another day, than software development and copious amounts of
>>>>>>>>> code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are
>>>>>>>>> no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you
>>>>>>>>> want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get
>>>>>>>>> any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and
>>>>>>>>> ignoring real world issues like release management, quality
>>>>>>>>> control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since
>>>>>>>>> you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help
>>>>>>>>> promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is
>>>>>>>>> that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a
>>>>>>>>> "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz.
>>>>>>>>> Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is
>>>>>>>>> reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can
>>>>>>>>> afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford
>>>>>>>>> to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing
>>>>>>>>> OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword
>>>>>>>>> "myofbiz"
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>                            
>>>>>>>>>> Here is another blog
>>>>>>>>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are
>>>>>>>>>> struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is,
>>>>>>>>>> encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this
>>>>>>>>>> issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven
>>>>>>>>>> software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live
>>>>>>>>>> longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open
>>>>>>>>>> source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service
>>>>>>>>>> providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and
>>>>>>>>>> not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive
>>>>>>>>>> and moving.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                                  
>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying
>>>>>>>>>>> to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it
>>>>>>>>>>> working  for years.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community.
>>>>>>>>>>> In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to
>>>>>>>>>>> providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building
>>>>>>>>>>> their business.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                                        
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it
>>>>>>>>>>>> seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> future...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not
>>>>>>>>>>>> follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The strategy :
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                                              
>>>>>>>>>>                                  
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Warnock <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>                
>>>>>  
>>>>>      
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>
>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi Jacques:
Just to make my position clear: I am not advocating a "commercial project".
I think it is possible to get commercial sponsorship and still stay
community-driven.

Ruth

Jacques Le Roux wrote:

> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want
>> it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to
>> help build this thing, and for some history about that and
>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
>
> Who really want OFBiz  to be a commercial project? Not me for sure!
> This is a visionnary project, not only at the technical level. It will
> take time to prove without the same means than commercial projects. Of
> course this does not mean that nothing should change, but carefully.
>
> Jacques
>
>
>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

OOps. How could I miss that?
Ruth

Jacques Le Roux wrote:

> Google => site:directwebremoting.org sponsor
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "BJ Freeman" <[hidden email]>
>> Ruth I am someone you have to hit over the head to get me to see
>> something
>> so if you could just link to what your refereeing to I might see it.
>> I scan the home page and did not see anything.
>>
>> Ruth Hoffman sent the following on 2/25/2010 11:15 AM:
>>>
>>>
>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>> Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any
>>>> sponsor links. Am I missing something?
>>>>  
>>> No. Look closer.
>>>> Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software
>>>> Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different
>>>> guidelines and restrictions.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it
>>>> is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by
>>>> various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere,
>>>> SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a
>>>> single company.
>>>>  
>>> Your point is?
>>>> So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do?
>>>>
>>>> Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The
>>>> difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain,
>>>> test, release, document, etc is staggering.
>>>>  
>>> Really? How so? Each project has the same challenges: build, maintain,
>>> test, release, document.
>>>> So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm
>>>> confused...
>>>>  
>>> Look again. Consider taking a more casual, relaxed attitude while
>>> browsing the site might help you to see what I see.
>>> Ruth
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>> Hi David:
>>>>>
>>>>> Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source,
>>>>> Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle.
>>>>> (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my opinion.
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>  
>>>>>> How?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>    
>>>>>>> David:
>>>>>>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have
>>>>>>> community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy
>>>>>>> sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>> Matt,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz,
>>>>>>>> and after technology investing recovered from the lull in
>>>>>>>> 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to
>>>>>>>> turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a
>>>>>>>> community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to
>>>>>>>> the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an
>>>>>>>> incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing
>>>>>>>> and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open
>>>>>>>> playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have
>>>>>>>> OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and
>>>>>>>> we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our
>>>>>>>> time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really
>>>>>>>> the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on
>>>>>>>> OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize...
>>>>>>>> and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced
>>>>>>>> with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts
>>>>>>>> whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of
>>>>>>>> pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it
>>>>>>>> harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no
>>>>>>>> documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read
>>>>>>>> it).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and
>>>>>>>> committers page and see how much overlap there is between them.
>>>>>>>> Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast
>>>>>>>> majority of service providers never contribute back to the
>>>>>>>> project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in
>>>>>>>> profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to
>>>>>>>> estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets
>>>>>>>> back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In
>>>>>>>> other words, most of the customization work is done by people who
>>>>>>>> don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or
>>>>>>>> any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the
>>>>>>>> most part.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just
>>>>>>>> because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create,
>>>>>>>> then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be
>>>>>>>> any other way?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people
>>>>>>>> want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
>>>>>>>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to
>>>>>>>> help build this thing, and for some history about that and
>>>>>>>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be
>>>>>>>> of particular interest:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of
>>>>>>>> this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the
>>>>>>>> message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the
>>>>>>>> commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably
>>>>>>>> much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and
>>>>>>>> significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to
>>>>>>>> get the time of day from technology press folks?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what
>>>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has
>>>>>>>>> lots of
>>>>>>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are
>>>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1)
>>>>>>>>> they see a
>>>>>>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least
>>>>>>>>> 10-100X
>>>>>>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity
>>>>>>>>> (public
>>>>>>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their
>>>>>>>>> investment.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet
>>>>>>>>> he loses
>>>>>>>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more
>>>>>>>>> polished
>>>>>>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However,
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>>>>>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that,
>>>>>>>>> you need
>>>>>>>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an
>>>>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution--
>>>>>>>>> otherwise,
>>>>>>>>> don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is
>>>>>>>>> ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>>>>>>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most
>>>>>>>>> ass-backward
>>>>>>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people
>>>>>>>>> to buy
>>>>>>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without
>>>>>>>>> trailers.  Even
>>>>>>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the
>>>>>>>>> "loss
>>>>>>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it
>>>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free
>>>>>>>>> samples
>>>>>>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our
>>>>>>>>> products.
>>>>>>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get,
>>>>>>>>> and also
>>>>>>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you
>>>>>>>>> get that information (I looked hard at
>>>>>>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make
>>>>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those
>>>>>>>>> advantages
>>>>>>>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the
>>>>>>>>> surface--
>>>>>>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP
>>>>>>>>> solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>>>>>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder
>>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>>>>>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz
>>>>>>>>> had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>>>>>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some
>>>>>>>>> limited
>>>>>>>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent,
>>>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the
>>>>>>>>> incremental cost
>>>>>>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and
>>>>>>>>> applications is
>>>>>>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the
>>>>>>>>> customer is
>>>>>>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably,
>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!
>>>>>>>>> Customers
>>>>>>>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>>>>>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you,
>>>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>>>> the reverse.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a
>>>>>>>>> nutshell. From a
>>>>>>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs
>>>>>>>>> later,
>>>>>>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits
>>>>>>>>> later.
>>>>>>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user
>>>>>>>>> community?
>>>>>>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed,
>>>>>>>>> 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>                    
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing
>>>>>>>>>> vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks
>>>>>>>>>> personally:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a
>>>>>>>>>> problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out
>>>>>>>>>> is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a
>>>>>>>>>> product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play
>>>>>>>>>> another day, than software development and copious amounts of
>>>>>>>>>> code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are
>>>>>>>>>> no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you
>>>>>>>>>> want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get
>>>>>>>>>> any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and
>>>>>>>>>> ignoring real world issues like release management, quality
>>>>>>>>>> control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since
>>>>>>>>>> you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help
>>>>>>>>>> promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is
>>>>>>>>>> that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a
>>>>>>>>>> "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz.
>>>>>>>>>> Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is
>>>>>>>>>> reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can
>>>>>>>>>> afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford
>>>>>>>>>> to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing
>>>>>>>>>> OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword
>>>>>>>>>> "myofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>                          
>>>>>>>>>>> Here is another blog
>>>>>>>>>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are
>>>>>>>>>>> struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is,
>>>>>>>>>>> encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this
>>>>>>>>>>> issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven
>>>>>>>>>>> software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live
>>>>>>>>>>> longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open
>>>>>>>>>>> source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service
>>>>>>>>>>> providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and
>>>>>>>>>>> not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive
>>>>>>>>>>> and moving.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                                
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying
>>>>>>>>>>>> to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it
>>>>>>>>>>>> working  for years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community.
>>>>>>>>>>>> In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to
>>>>>>>>>>>> providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building
>>>>>>>>>>>> their business.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                                      
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> future...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The strategy :
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                              
>>>>>>>>>>>                                  
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Matt Warnock <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>      
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>
>>
>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>
> Hi Jacques:
> Just to make my position clear: I am not advocating a "commercial project".
> I think it is possible to get commercial sponsorship and still stay community-driven.

Great Ruth,

have you an idea on how to begin on this? Looks like we have already some sponsors but of course not the size of some other TLP
projects. I guess it's due to the nature of the software and not its quality or anything else.
Here in France I know some French Companies who are using OFBiz, but none want to speak about that. Some even sell (sold?) it as
their projects, with some marketing and an IT team around, of course...
You know what? Look at the French translation, you will better understand my dissapointement some days... And I'm not speaking about
the Neogia team, which hopefully will help us much more some day.

Jacques

> Ruth
>
> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
>>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and
>>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>
>> Who really want OFBiz  to be a commercial project? Not me for sure!
>> This is a visionnary project, not only at the technical level. It will take time to prove without the same means than commercial
>> projects. Of course this does not mean that nothing should change, but carefully.
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>>
>>
>

[Ruth Hoffman-2]

Hi Jacques:
I don't think I'm in any position to tell this group anything about how
to get more sponsorship. That needs to come from the committers.
Ruth

Jacques Le Roux wrote:

> From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>
>> Hi Jacques:
>> Just to make my position clear: I am not advocating a "commercial
>> project".
>> I think it is possible to get commercial sponsorship and still stay
>> community-driven.
>
> Great Ruth,
>
> have you an idea on how to begin on this? Looks like we have already
> some sponsors but of course not the size of some other TLP projects. I
> guess it's due to the nature of the software and not its quality or
> anything else.
> Here in France I know some French Companies who are using OFBiz, but
> none want to speak about that. Some even sell (sold?) it as their
> projects, with some marketing and an IT team around, of course...
> You know what? Look at the French translation, you will better
> understand my dissapointement some days... And I'm not speaking about
> the Neogia team, which hopefully will help us much more some day.
>
> Jacques
>
>> Ruth
>>
>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people
>>>> want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
>>>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to
>>>> help build this thing, and for some history about that and
>>>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>
>>> Who really want OFBiz  to be a commercial project? Not me for sure!
>>> This is a visionnary project, not only at the technical level. It
>>> will take time to prove without the same means than commercial
>>> projects. Of course this does not mean that nothing should change,
>>> but carefully.
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>

[David E. Jones-2]

Why would it need to come from committers? What do committers have to do with sponsorship, or keeping you from helping with sponsorship?

BTW, this thread was really meant to cover the notion of commercial open source versus community-driven open source. IMO OFBiz is community-driven open source and is indeed driven by sponsors, both individuals and organizations. How else would it exist?

-David


On Feb 25, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi Jacques:
> I don't think I'm in any position to tell this group anything about how to get more sponsorship. That needs to come from the committers.
> Ruth
>
> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>
>>> Hi Jacques:
>>> Just to make my position clear: I am not advocating a "commercial project".
>>> I think it is possible to get commercial sponsorship and still stay community-driven.
>>
>> Great Ruth,
>>
>> have you an idea on how to begin on this? Looks like we have already some sponsors but of course not the size of some other TLP projects. I guess it's due to the nature of the software and not its quality or anything else.
>> Here in France I know some French Companies who are using OFBiz, but none want to speak about that. Some even sell (sold?) it as their projects, with some marketing and an IT team around, of course...
>> You know what? Look at the French translation, you will better understand my dissapointement some days... And I'm not speaking about the Neogia team, which hopefully will help us much more some day.
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>>> Ruth
>>>
>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
>>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
>>>>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and
>>>>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>>
>>>> Who really want OFBiz  to be a commercial project? Not me for sure!
>>>> This is a visionnary project, not only at the technical level. It will take time to prove without the same means than commercial projects. Of course this does not mean that nothing should change, but carefully.
>>>>
>>>> Jacques
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>

[samhamilton]

I think that OFBiz is already sponsored just not quite how it would if
it was a standalone project. How can OFBiz exist if not for the
companies who have paid for getting it to work how they want it to and
then that flowing back in the form of developers who have time to commit
code.

Take the company that I work for - we use or will use OFBiz to power
every single part of our ecommerce business. This meant that we paid for
some of your time to consult and some of your time to write code most of
which has ended back in the project. Did my company sponsor OFBiz - well
in a weird round about way yes it did, perhaps more directly than
sending a cheque to ASF could have.

Just my 2 RMB worth of thoughts.




On 26/02/2010 04:51, David E Jones wrote:

>
> Why would it need to come from committers? What do committers have to do with sponsorship, or keeping you from helping with sponsorship?
>
> BTW, this thread was really meant to cover the notion of commercial open source versus community-driven open source. IMO OFBiz is community-driven open source and is indeed driven by sponsors, both individuals and organizations. How else would it exist?
>
> -David
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>> Hi Jacques:
>> I don't think I'm in any position to tell this group anything about how to get more sponsorship. That needs to come from the committers.
>> Ruth
>>
>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>
>>>> Hi Jacques:
>>>> Just to make my position clear: I am not advocating a "commercial project".
>>>> I think it is possible to get commercial sponsorship and still stay community-driven.
>>>
>>> Great Ruth,
>>>
>>> have you an idea on how to begin on this? Looks like we have already some sponsors but of course not the size of some other TLP projects. I guess it's due to the nature of the software and not its quality or anything else.
>>> Here in France I know some French Companies who are using OFBiz, but none want to speak about that. Some even sell (sold?) it as their projects, with some marketing and an IT team around, of course...
>>> You know what? Look at the French translation, you will better understand my dissapointement some days... And I'm not speaking about the Neogia team, which hopefully will help us much more some day.
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
>>>>>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and
>>>>>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>>>
>>>>> Who really want OFBiz  to be a commercial project? Not me for sure!
>>>>> This is a visionnary project, not only at the technical level. It will take time to prove without the same means than commercial projects. Of course this does not mean that nothing should change, but carefully.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

[Shi Jinghai]

The keywords in this discussion are sponsor, OFBiz, competitor. Sponsors
mentioned are vc and giant. Another fact not mentioned but implied is
that some VPs of Apache are also VPs of IBM or other giants.

Perhaps OFBiz is facing a deeper level of requirement: I'm proud I'm an
OFBiz user.


在 2010-02-25四的 21:09 +0100，Jacques Le Roux写道：

> From: "Ruth Hoffman" <[hidden email]>
> > Hi Jacques:
> > Just to make my position clear: I am not advocating a "commercial project".
> > I think it is possible to get commercial sponsorship and still stay community-driven.
>
> Great Ruth,
>
> have you an idea on how to begin on this? Looks like we have already some sponsors but of course not the size of some other TLP
> projects. I guess it's due to the nature of the software and not its quality or anything else.
> Here in France I know some French Companies who are using OFBiz, but none want to speak about that. Some even sell (sold?) it as
> their projects, with some marketing and an IT team around, of course...
> You know what? Look at the French translation, you will better understand my dissapointement some days... And I'm not speaking about
> the Neogia team, which hopefully will help us much more some day.
>
> Jacques
>
> > Ruth
> >
> > Jacques Le Roux wrote:
> >> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
> >>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
> >>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and
> >>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
> >>
> >> Who really want OFBiz  to be a commercial project? Not me for sure!
> >> This is a visionnary project, not only at the technical level. It will take time to prove without the same means than commercial
> >> projects. Of course this does not mean that nothing should change, but carefully.
> >>
> >> Jacques
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>

[Matt Warnock]

On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 10:50 -0700, David E Jones wrote:

> Matt,
>
> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and
>  after technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was
>  approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a
>  commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one
>  (which would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something
>  similar so that end-users would have an incentive to purchase
>  licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license value added
>  services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my
>  intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven
>  project so I stuck with that.
>
> Perhaps that was a mistake?

I don't think so, but others may.

> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll
>  get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time."
>  That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case
>  then people who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't
>  be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the
>  main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software.
>  Also, there would be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and
>  instead there are thousands of pages of it (in fact, probably too much
>  for most people, making it harder to find the info they want, leading
>  to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't
>  bothered to read it).

I'm sorry if it came across as insulting, it was not intended so, but is
is a very real theme I hear in this forum, usually in the form of "yeah,
that'd be nice, but who's gonna pay for it?"  There does seem to be a
culture of scarcity around OFBiz right now-- that I'd like to see
changed. I'm not recriminating or blaming-- I think it's perfectly
natural given the history to date.  You haven't gotten rich and famous
from OFBiz yet, despite a LOT of effort (and accomplishment).

> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and
>  committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's
>  the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of
>  service providers never contribute back to the project. The vast
>  majority of the business around OFBiz results in profit that
>  contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say it's
>  probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group
>  that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the
>  customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the
>  project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service.
>  They figure it out on their own for the most part.

Again, hoping to make the ROI with training beforehand puts the cart
before the horse.  Do you order a car sight unseen, with a big deposit
up front?  No, you go to a lot, take the test drive, maybe rent it, and
if it meets your needs, then maybe you place a custom order-- but more
likely you take delivery from dealer inventory.  Does that mean the
dealer got screwed, because he fronted the inventory?  No, he knows that
the sale is the BEGINNING of the relationship, not the END.  

Sure, some people will get on a waiting list for an exotic sight
unseen-- but you don't build a Ford, a GM or a Toyota company on that
model.  Nor do Autozone, Burt Brothers Tires and Joe's Auto Repair make
THEIR living on exotics.  The bigger the market penetration, the bigger
the economic environment.

> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just
>  because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then
>  you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other
>  way?

Not looking for that, but look how much time you spend!  We had a saying
in the practice of law-- I'd rather be water-skiing and not getting paid
than working and not getting paid.  With a larger community (still
community-driven), you get a larger income AND a life.  I'm trying to
help you see the vision that the community CAN be bigger, but probably
not with the present methods.  If you do what you've always done, you'll
get what you've always gotten.  I'm envisioning a quantum-leap, not an
incremental gain in market share.

> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want
>  it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for
>  community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help
>  build this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related
>  to it please see my blog:
>
> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/

I read this before.  And I don't think people want it to be a commercial
project, necessarily.  They just want it to be 1) more popular (like
being used by more people) and 2) easier to initially use and learn
(which helps a lot with #1).
 
> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of
>  particular interest:
>
> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html

Read that one too, and agree with it.  I like community.  I just would
like to see the project easier for new users to adopt and benefit from.
if it came "out of the can" with one (or more) simple setups that people
could easily try out in a more-or-less production environment, it would
be easier to get into.

> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this
>  a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm
>  hearing more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with
>  the possibly higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier
>  looking resulting software, and significantly more marketing exposure,
>  and at least being able to get the time of day from technology press
>  folks?

You don't have to be commercial to get traction, but it helps.  You do
have to HAVE traction to GET traction.  It's a chicken-and-egg problem,
after a fashion, but bigger chickens lay bigger eggs.  The object is to
build the community of users.  

You seem to say that a person can't effectively join the community
except by an arduous training process, because OFBiz is a huge box of
auto parts, and can't really be used effectively OOTB, without knowing
exactly what kind of car you need.  

I say the "standard" OFBiz distribution should be like a "tin lizzie"
Model T-- four-door, passenger-only, no rumble seat or stake-bed, and
only in black.  Blanket the earth with that very useful (if limited)
version.  Once users are actually USING it, THEN they will want to
tinker with it.  That builds your infrastructure, and everyone wins.

In short, your model is LEARN first, then BUILD.  My suggestion is USE
first, THEN learn by customizing.  That's how I built my first car-- but
I did know what a working model would look like to start with.

> -David
>
>
> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>
> > I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
> > OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has lots of
> > implications, and deserves careful thought.
> >
> > If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing
> > to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a
> > product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X
> > in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
> > offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
> >
> > I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet he loses
> > contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more polished
> > and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
> > bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
> > inviting to users, who are not developers).
> >
> > The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you
> > want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that, you need
> > a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
> > solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise,
> > don't waste our time.  
> >
> > Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
> > the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
> > marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy
> > records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
> > low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss
> > leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away
> > for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free samples
> > because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
> > People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also
> > how much it is going to cost.
> >
> > As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at
> > OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You have
> > to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz
> > better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages
> > are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface--
> > the very things that Ruth complains about.  
> >
> > Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
> > difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice
> > than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
> > against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  
> >
> > If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
> > and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited
> > applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest
> > of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost
> > (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is
> > zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
> > fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there
> > are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!  Customers
> > create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
> > customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of
> > the reverse.
> >
> > That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell.  From a
> > user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
> > while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
> > Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community?
> > The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  
> >
> > On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
> >> Hi Anil:
> >> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol
> >> towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally:
> >>
> >> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for
> >> OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software
> >> developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more
> >> importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development
> >> and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository.
> >>
> >> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new
> >> adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call
> >> them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by
> >> sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues
> >> like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation
> >> and training.
> >>
> >> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you
> >> brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the
> >> health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do?
> >> Maybe I don't understand.
> >>
> >> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product"
> >> that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only
> >> one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to
> >> encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of
> >> Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make
> >> me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL!
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Ruth
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------
> >> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
> >> [hidden email]
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Ruth
> >>
> >> Anil Patel wrote:
> >>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
> >>>
> >>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development"
> >>>
> >>> I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks and Regards
> >>> Anil Patel
> >>> HotWax Media Inc
> >>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
> >>>
> >>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Jacques,
> >>>> Why do you think so?
> >>>>
> >>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working  for years.
> >>>>
> >>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks and Regards
> >>>> Anil Patel
> >>>> HotWax Media Inc
> >>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
> >>>>
> >>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jacques
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Matt Warnock <[hidden email]>
> > RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
> >

--
Matt Warnock <[hidden email]>
RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.

[Jacopo Cappellato-4]

Matt,

a very short answer to your (too long) post:

you seem to believe that you are in a position to teach to the core committers that they have to invest more in order to make their past investments in OFBiz profitable in the future; the reality is that the core committers, and the many people that are here in this forum don't need your help with this since we are all enjoying to work and live with OFBiz. I will listen to your advices only if you are getting rich with OFBiz right now and you are willing to share your secret.
But since it seems that your advices are coming out of your frustration (to understand the complex processes implemented in OFBiz, and its rich framework) as a newbie, I'd suggest that you use your energy studying more and writing less.

Kind regards,

Jacopo


On Feb 26, 2010, at 10:44 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:

> On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 10:50 -0700, David E Jones wrote:
>> Matt,
>>
>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and
>> after technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was
>> approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a
>> commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one
>> (which would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something
>> similar so that end-users would have an incentive to purchase
>> licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license value added
>> services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my
>> intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven
>> project so I stuck with that.
>>
>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>
> I don't think so, but others may.
>
>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll
>> get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time."
>> That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case
>> then people who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't
>> be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the
>> main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software.
>> Also, there would be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and
>> instead there are thousands of pages of it (in fact, probably too much
>> for most people, making it harder to find the info they want, leading
>> to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't
>> bothered to read it).
>
> I'm sorry if it came across as insulting, it was not intended so, but is
> is a very real theme I hear in this forum, usually in the form of "yeah,
> that'd be nice, but who's gonna pay for it?"  There does seem to be a
> culture of scarcity around OFBiz right now-- that I'd like to see
> changed. I'm not recriminating or blaming-- I think it's perfectly
> natural given the history to date.  You haven't gotten rich and famous
> from OFBiz yet, despite a LOT of effort (and accomplishment).
>
>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and
>> committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's
>> the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of
>> service providers never contribute back to the project. The vast
>> majority of the business around OFBiz results in profit that
>> contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say it's
>> probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group
>> that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the
>> customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the
>> project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service.
>> They figure it out on their own for the most part.
>
> Again, hoping to make the ROI with training beforehand puts the cart
> before the horse.  Do you order a car sight unseen, with a big deposit
> up front?  No, you go to a lot, take the test drive, maybe rent it, and
> if it meets your needs, then maybe you place a custom order-- but more
> likely you take delivery from dealer inventory.  Does that mean the
> dealer got screwed, because he fronted the inventory?  No, he knows that
> the sale is the BEGINNING of the relationship, not the END.  
>
> Sure, some people will get on a waiting list for an exotic sight
> unseen-- but you don't build a Ford, a GM or a Toyota company on that
> model.  Nor do Autozone, Burt Brothers Tires and Joe's Auto Repair make
> THEIR living on exotics.  The bigger the market penetration, the bigger
> the economic environment.
>
>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just
>> because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then
>> you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other
>> way?
>
> Not looking for that, but look how much time you spend!  We had a saying
> in the practice of law-- I'd rather be water-skiing and not getting paid
> than working and not getting paid.  With a larger community (still
> community-driven), you get a larger income AND a life.  I'm trying to
> help you see the vision that the community CAN be bigger, but probably
> not with the present methods.  If you do what you've always done, you'll
> get what you've always gotten.  I'm envisioning a quantum-leap, not an
> incremental gain in market share.
>
>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want
>> it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for
>> community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help
>> build this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related
>> to it please see my blog:
>>
>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>
> I read this before.  And I don't think people want it to be a commercial
> project, necessarily.  They just want it to be 1) more popular (like
> being used by more people) and 2) easier to initially use and learn
> (which helps a lot with #1).
>
>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of
>> particular interest:
>>
>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>
> Read that one too, and agree with it.  I like community.  I just would
> like to see the project easier for new users to adopt and benefit from.
> if it came "out of the can" with one (or more) simple setups that people
> could easily try out in a more-or-less production environment, it would
> be easier to get into.
>
>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this
>> a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm
>> hearing more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with
>> the possibly higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier
>> looking resulting software, and significantly more marketing exposure,
>> and at least being able to get the time of day from technology press
>> folks?
>
> You don't have to be commercial to get traction, but it helps.  You do
> have to HAVE traction to GET traction.  It's a chicken-and-egg problem,
> after a fashion, but bigger chickens lay bigger eggs.  The object is to
> build the community of users.  
>
> You seem to say that a person can't effectively join the community
> except by an arduous training process, because OFBiz is a huge box of
> auto parts, and can't really be used effectively OOTB, without knowing
> exactly what kind of car you need.  
>
> I say the "standard" OFBiz distribution should be like a "tin lizzie"
> Model T-- four-door, passenger-only, no rumble seat or stake-bed, and
> only in black.  Blanket the earth with that very useful (if limited)
> version.  Once users are actually USING it, THEN they will want to
> tinker with it.  That builds your infrastructure, and everyone wins.
>
> In short, your model is LEARN first, then BUILD.  My suggestion is USE
> first, THEN learn by customizing.  That's how I built my first car-- but
> I did know what a working model would look like to start with.
>
>
>> -David
>>
>>
>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>
>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has lots of
>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>
>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing
>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a
>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X
>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>>
>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet he loses
>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more polished
>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>
>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you
>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that, you need
>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise,
>>> don't waste our time.  
>>>
>>> Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy
>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss
>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away
>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free samples
>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also
>>> how much it is going to cost.
>>>
>>> As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at
>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You have
>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz
>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages
>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface--
>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  
>>>
>>> Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice
>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  
>>>
>>> If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited
>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest
>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost
>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is
>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there
>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!  Customers
>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of
>>> the reverse.
>>>
>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell.  From a
>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community?
>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  
>>>
>>> On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol
>>>> towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally:
>>>>
>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for
>>>> OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software
>>>> developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more
>>>> importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development
>>>> and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>
>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new
>>>> adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call
>>>> them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by
>>>> sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues
>>>> like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation
>>>> and training.
>>>>
>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you
>>>> brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the
>>>> health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do?
>>>> Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>
>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product"
>>>> that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only
>>>> one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to
>>>> encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of
>>>> Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make
>>>> me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>
>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development"
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working  for years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Warnock <[hidden email]>
>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Warnock <[hidden email]>
> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

From: "Matt Warnock" <[hidden email]>

> On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 13:34 +0100, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> Thanks Matt,
>>
>> This is mostly true, but how to achieve that is another thing... Also
>>  it seems that it's not specific to OFBiz among ASF projects, though of
>>  course OFBiz is atypical as an Apache TLP project. As Anil outlined we
>>  need our Canonical (or Red Hat if you prefer ;). Though we could also
>>  wonder why this has not appeared so far.
>
> I think the analogy to Canonical or Redhat is misplaced.  Linux is a
> kernel which cannot exist without other software, hence the need for a
> distribution.  All the distributions did initially (I used some of the
> earliest) was package a linux kernel and stdlib with other software that
> people EXPECTED to see in any Unix workalike.  Other than Java, OFBiz
> doesn't NEED other packages, though it can interoperate with many.  And
> there IS no "expected contents" of an ERP system, as they are all
> different.  What IS expected is that you should be able to plug it in
> and evaluate whether it meets you needs for a specific function (or set
> of functions), and that is pretty hard to do right now.

I can agree on this

> Could there be specialized OFBiz distributions? Sure.  Are they really
> needed?  Only because OFBiz isn't very user-friendly right now.  Will
> OFBiz get real traction without being made more user-friendly?  I doubt
> it.  Certainly not quickly.

I had the same feeling when I 1st crossed OFBiz. I took me some time to understand that OFBiz OOTB is mostly a very large POC.
It shows all its possibilities, and it's difficult to do that and remain user-friendly. I don't say it's impossible, but it's now
deeply rooted and will be long to change. For instance take the Order Manager, how to do it better? Small improvements may help but
they will never please everyone.

> What we HAVE seen with OFBiz is breakoffs, by people who get frustrated
> with what OFBiz doesn't do OOTB.  OpenTAPS, Neogia, and others.  But if
> their improvements don't get back into into the upstream code base
> (unlike redhat, suse, or ubuntu), then you have merely diluted the
> customer base and muddied the water.

This is partly true. For the moment I only consider Opentaps and Neogia (others?). Actually I see them as different from their
origins and strategies.

I guess Opentatps was mostly created because at that time OFBiz lacked an usable/consistent/simple CRM, Si identified the need.
But IMO the main reason was because Si wanted to follow
http://www.builderau.com.au/strategy/businessmanagement/soa/How-to-make-money-from-Open-source/0,339028271,339191343,00.htm.
The CRM  is a reproach some persons evaluating OFBiz are (still) often doing (even if now there is already something in OFBiz, which
could be improved of course). Because they compare OFBiz to SugarCRM.
Opentaps simplifies some business processes but this is also at the cost of removing some functionnalities (It adds also some, for
instance Opentaps handle well marketing packages: it's able to unpack them which AFAIF is not in OFBiz). They actually more and
more use OFBiz as a central piece and add other GPL components around (OFBiz can't do that). I wonder if at some stage they will not
get technical issues with that. BTW there is currently a discussion about future strategy and OFBiz
http://sourceforge.net/projects/opentaps/forums/forum/487771/topic/3562735

I believe Neogia was created for other reasons. They wanted to use generators based on UML. They had also some specific needs for
the
French Marcket coming from legals aspects, mostly accounting and stocktaking. So they build their own component to replace OFBiz's,
namely NAccounting an NFacility. But they did not follow best practices for that (hot-deploy components) and they now are trying to
do it another way, they call them Addons. If they succeed on that, it will be beneficial for us also. Because they will be able to
contribure more. Note that Opentaps is hardly contributing anything. They do not use a commercial licence (infamous dual licensing)
but choose to use GPL to be protected from bigger competitors. I think it's one of the reasons why openERP has grown so much in
France: Neogia is hidding OFBiz. For instance Smile (the bigger  French IT company specialized in Open Source http://www.smile.fr/)
made a paper where they did not even considered OFBiz, but Opentaps and Neogia. For them OFBiz is only a framework :/. In Neogia
defence I know at least a French IT company (not a small one) which is solding OFBiz as its own product.

>> I guess the ASF licence is one clue. Also is there an Apache TLP
>>  project which is doing better than us on this aspect?
>
> Yes-- Apache web server currently holds a massive market share.  In
> part, I believe, because you can install a working copy in seconds under
> any distribution out there.  When you install it, it says "It works",
> which is reassuring, and you can immediately go to work modifying the
> site do do what you want.  Upgrading the code base does NOT in most
> cases require upgrading the web site, or the database that might run
> behind it.  New capabilities are added all the time, but these are
> additions to the base, not replacements.
>
>> Is it not rather because of the "ASF business model" (if we can think
>>  about a business model for a fundation..) that things stay as they
>>  are: IBM uses HTTPD and Geronimo, ServiceMix/ActiveMQ are backed by
>>  Progress Software/FUSE, Jackrabbit has Magniolia and Day, etc. but I
>>  think there is never a sole company behing an Apache Project, by
>>  design: it would not be accepted. What are really these communities
>>  around our competitors?
>
> They are communities of users that want to advance the tool, and that
> support and develop it because it solves problems for them.  For that,
> you need a critical mass of users, and for that, you need OOTB utility
> and a reasonable learning curve.

Yes, I can't argue against that. But we have still then to brain-storm how to do it ...

> BTW, OFBiz is not the only Open Source project with this problem.  The
> GIMP goes up against Photoshop, which everyone knows and uses.  It gets
> about ZERO traction in that space, primarily because the interface is so
> different, and hard to learn.  Several attempts have been made to get it
> to look and feel more like Photoshop, and run Photoshop macros, but
> without both of these items, I believe the GIMP will continue to be an
> also-ran.
>
> Contrast this with OpenOffice, which decided to go with a very familiar
> interface design.  It continues to succeed, even against Google apps,
> which, interestingly, also have a familiar interface and easy learning
> curve. M$ posted its first decrease in revenues EVER as a result of
> these applications and Linux.

We have made good efforts and progress on this since a year now (thanks Bruno!). This has also introduced some drawbacks. For
instance, Ruth is often complaining about the regression introduced by themes regarding logo handling in R9.04. It may seem a detail
as it always possible with themes, but we can't elude that it was easier to do for an end user before (there are no UIs anymore for
that, actually we still lack an UI to handle themes properly). More important, and this is what Chris is crossing at the moment, are
dependencies on applications introduced by these changes (online help, themes, ...). In other word OFBiz is a real beast, and should
be handled with care. We can't expect to transform OFBiz quickly without taking an high risk to lose its qualities and values.
Fortunately the core commiters are still scrutinizing commits and I even think that our code get better (see the security effor last
year, Big decimal). New features are still introduced at a steady path, for instance I hope to commit the layered lookup this
weekend, thanks Sascha!

>> BTW it's from a link Anil gave that I found how the ASF is viewed from
>>  a marketing expert at Canonical
>>  http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10159925-16.html?tag=mncol;txt One
>>  thing he does not speak much about though is that there are dozens of
>>  projects at the ASF. So we can't expect the ASF to do the marketing
>>  for us. There has been already a huge marketing effort for a year
>>  (yes, huge for the community). We are now facing new competitors like
>>  Magento on the eCommerce side and openERP on the backend. Let's see
>>  how things will turn on the long term, exciting isn'it?
>
> I'm concerned because competitors can change the landscape rapidly.
> When Windows launched it was just a competitor.  Now it is the de facto
> standard and very difficult to overcome.  Beta was better than VHS, but
> it lost in the market.  The best way to predict the future is to create
> it, and marketing that creation is part of the process.  Well-marketed
> ideas become the future-- better ideas that are not adequately marketed,
> become back eddies in the stream of progress.

OK, but how to market OFBiz now then?

>> BTW as Anil (and you implicitly) said, I'm also persuaded that OFBiz community has a sustainable model because
>> 1) Nobody (but the ASF) owns OFBiz
>> 2) We don't need to feed share holders
>> 3) We have a very good data model
>> 4) We sit on the J2EE paradigm
>> 5) The community is active
>> ...
>
> Agreed-- but sustainability is not success.  I would rather see it
> succeed wildly than merely be sustained.

Agreed

Jacques

>>
>> Jacques
>>
>> From: "Matt Warnock" <[hidden email]>
>> >I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>> > OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has lots of
>> > implications, and deserves careful thought.
>> >
>> > If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing
>> > to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a
>> > product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X
>> > in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>> > offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>> >
>> > I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet he loses
>> > contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more polished
>> > and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>> > bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>> > inviting to users, who are not developers).
>> >
>> > The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you
>> > want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that, you need
>> > a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>> > solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise,
>> > don't waste our time.
>> >
>> > Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>> > the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>> > marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy
>> > records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>> > low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss
>> > leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away
>> > for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free samples
>> > because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>> > People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also
>> > how much it is going to cost.
>> >
>> > As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at
>> > OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You have
>> > to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz
>> > better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages
>> > are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface--
>> > the very things that Ruth complains about.
>> >
>> > Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>> > difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice
>> > than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>> > against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.
>> >
>> > If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>> > and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited
>> > applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest
>> > of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost
>> > (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is
>> > zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>> > fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there
>> > are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!  Customers
>> > create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>> > customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of
>> > the reverse.
>> >
>> > That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell.  From a
>> > user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>> > while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>> > Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community?
>> > The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.
>> >
>> > On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>> >> Hi Anil:
>> >> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol
>> >> towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally:
>> >>
>> >> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for
>> >> OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software
>> >> developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more
>> >> importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development
>> >> and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository.
>> >>
>> >> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new
>> >> adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call
>> >> them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by
>> >> sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues
>> >> like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation
>> >> and training.
>> >>
>> >> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you
>> >> brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the
>> >> health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do?
>> >> Maybe I don't understand.
>> >>
>> >> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product"
>> >> that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only
>> >> one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to
>> >> encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of
>> >> Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make
>> >> me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Ruth
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------
>> >> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Ruth
>> >>
>> >> Anil Patel wrote:
>> >> > Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>> >> >
>> >> > One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage
>> >> > community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software
>> >> > development"
>> >> >
>> >> > I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by
>> >> > corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get
>> >> > funding to keep project alive and moving.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks and Regards
>> >> > Anil Patel
>> >> > HotWax Media Inc
>> >> > Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>> >> >
>> >> > On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Jacques,
>> >> >> Why do you think so?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got
>> >> >> it
>> >> >> working  for years.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to
>> >> >> providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thanks and Regards
>> >> >> Anil Patel
>> >> >> HotWax Media Inc
>> >> >> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Jacques
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Matt Warnock <[hidden email]>
>> > RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Warnock <[hidden email]>
> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>