Selenium Presentation for OFBiz - Re: OOTB Unit Tests (was Re: Stable trunk?)

[Brett]

FYI,

Here is the link to the presentation on Selenium that I gave at the
ApacheCon/OFBiz conference this week.  There were several good presentations
on OFBiz this week.  Most of these are available at the us.apahecon.comwebsite.

http://us.apachecon.com/presentation/materials/118/ApacheCon2008_SeleniumXml.pdf


Brett



On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Erwan de FERRIERES <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Will the slides be available on the Internet after your presentation ? I'm
> not coming to the ApacheCon, but I am very interested to see what you've
> done with Selenium.
>
>
> Brett Palmer a écrit :
>
>  David,
>> We have been using SeleniumRC and an extension called SeleniumXml that I
>> will be presenting on at the ApacheCon conference next week.  These could
>> be
>> called from a normal ant process or used in Cruise Control.
>>
>> Let's talk more about this next week at the conference.
>>
>>
>> Brett
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:34 PM, David E Jones <[hidden email]
>> >wrote:
>>
>>  Erwan,
>>>
>>> It would be great to have some tests that go through the user interface,
>>> but we don't have tools for this yet that fit into the automated test
>>> system
>>> in OFBiz (ie so they can run along with other tests, and run
>>> automatically).
>>>
>>> The goal is for the tests to all work with an "ant run-tests" (or "java
>>> -jar ofbiz.jar tests"), and to cover as much of OFBiz OOTB as possible,
>>> and
>>> then to also be easy to customize or comment out those that no longer
>>> apply
>>> after people customize or add on to OFBiz.
>>>
>>> If you guys would like to work on getting Selenium tests to work this
>>> way,
>>> that would be great. Others have looked at this and run into troubles, so
>>> the last idea I heard was to use something different and that might be
>>> more
>>> manual for initial test writing, but probably easier to maintain.
>>>
>>> At Hotwax we've written/recorded a bunch of Selenium tests for clients,
>>> but
>>> they are difficult to maintain and as far as we've gone they also have to
>>> be
>>> manually run and watched.
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 12:09 PM, Erwan de FERRIERES wrote:
>>>
>>>  Here at Nereide, we are ready to make selenium tests (it's a task we
>>> have
>>>
>>>> planned to do, but which is always postponed....).
>>>> So, if it's ok with you and that you are interested in that, we are
>>>> going
>>>> to make it real !
>>>>
>>>> David E Jones a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>  On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Adam Heath wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  BJ Freeman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  there has been an effort to put in test units.
>>>>>>> the only thing lacking, in making it complete is manpower.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  And fixing the existing tests that are broken. :|
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  This is an area where it would be REALLY GREAT to have more effort go
>>>>> into the project. Yep, great enough to capitalize "REALLY" and "GREAT".
>>>>> Who has worked on the unit tests that are in place? I'll admit I
>>>>> haven't
>>>>> much except on the toolset and some of the framework unit tests and
>>>>> helping
>>>>> some of the Hotwax Media people who wrote many of the tests that now
>>>>> exist,
>>>>> especially the ones in the various applications.
>>>>> Is there anyone interested in working on this stuff? If there are
>>>>> enough
>>>>> people who want to actively work on it we can setup some coordination
>>>>> resources (ie Jira tasks, confluence pages, etc). If there are only 2-3
>>>>> then
>>>>> coordination through the mailing list would be better, and more visible
>>>>> to
>>>>> others possibly interested.
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>  --
>>>> - Erwan -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> --
> - Erwan -
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Thanks for the link Brett,

Much appreciated

Jacques

From: "Brett Palmer" <[hidden email]>
FYI,

Here is the link to the presentation on Selenium that I gave at the
ApacheCon/OFBiz conference this week.  There were several good presentations
on OFBiz this week.  Most of these are available at the us.apahecon.comwebsite.

http://us.apachecon.com/presentation/materials/118/ApacheCon2008_SeleniumXml.pdf


Brett



On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Erwan de FERRIERES <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Will the slides be available on the Internet after your presentation ? I'm
> not coming to the ApacheCon, but I am very interested to see what you've
> done with Selenium.
>
>
> Brett Palmer a écrit :
>
>  David,
>> We have been using SeleniumRC and an extension called SeleniumXml that I
>> will be presenting on at the ApacheCon conference next week.  These could
>> be
>> called from a normal ant process or used in Cruise Control.
>>
>> Let's talk more about this next week at the conference.
>>
>>
>> Brett
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:34 PM, David E Jones <[hidden email]
>> >wrote:
>>
>>  Erwan,
>>>
>>> It would be great to have some tests that go through the user interface,
>>> but we don't have tools for this yet that fit into the automated test
>>> system
>>> in OFBiz (ie so they can run along with other tests, and run
>>> automatically).
>>>
>>> The goal is for the tests to all work with an "ant run-tests" (or "java
>>> -jar ofbiz.jar tests"), and to cover as much of OFBiz OOTB as possible,
>>> and
>>> then to also be easy to customize or comment out those that no longer
>>> apply
>>> after people customize or add on to OFBiz.
>>>
>>> If you guys would like to work on getting Selenium tests to work this
>>> way,
>>> that would be great. Others have looked at this and run into troubles, so
>>> the last idea I heard was to use something different and that might be
>>> more
>>> manual for initial test writing, but probably easier to maintain.
>>>
>>> At Hotwax we've written/recorded a bunch of Selenium tests for clients,
>>> but
>>> they are difficult to maintain and as far as we've gone they also have to
>>> be
>>> manually run and watched.
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 12:09 PM, Erwan de FERRIERES wrote:
>>>
>>>  Here at Nereide, we are ready to make selenium tests (it's a task we
>>> have
>>>
>>>> planned to do, but which is always postponed....).
>>>> So, if it's ok with you and that you are interested in that, we are
>>>> going
>>>> to make it real !
>>>>
>>>> David E Jones a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>  On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Adam Heath wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  BJ Freeman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  there has been an effort to put in test units.
>>>>>>> the only thing lacking, in making it complete is manpower.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  And fixing the existing tests that are broken. :|
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  This is an area where it would be REALLY GREAT to have more effort go
>>>>> into the project. Yep, great enough to capitalize "REALLY" and "GREAT".
>>>>> Who has worked on the unit tests that are in place? I'll admit I
>>>>> haven't
>>>>> much except on the toolset and some of the framework unit tests and
>>>>> helping
>>>>> some of the Hotwax Media people who wrote many of the tests that now
>>>>> exist,
>>>>> especially the ones in the various applications.
>>>>> Is there anyone interested in working on this stuff? If there are
>>>>> enough
>>>>> people who want to actively work on it we can setup some coordination
>>>>> resources (ie Jira tasks, confluence pages, etc). If there are only 2-3
>>>>> then
>>>>> coordination through the mailing list would be better, and more visible
>>>>> to
>>>>> others possibly interested.
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>  --
>>>> - Erwan -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> --
> - Erwan -
>

[hans_bakker]

Thank you Brett,

very interesting presentation. We sure should have these tests included
as part of the application test.

Actually all of the OFBiz presentations are available at the following
links:
http://us.apachecon.com/c/acus2008/schedule/2008/11/05
http://us.apachecon.com/c/acus2008/schedule/2008/11/06

go to the presentation you are interested in and from that page the
presentation slides can be downloaded.

Regards,
Hans

On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 11:21 -0700, Brett Palmer wrote:

> FYI,
>
> Here is the link to the presentation on Selenium that I gave at the
> ApacheCon/OFBiz conference this week.  There were several good presentations
> on OFBiz this week.  Most of these are available at the us.apahecon.comwebsite.
>
> http://us.apachecon.com/presentation/materials/118/ApacheCon2008_SeleniumXml.pdf
>
>
> Brett
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Erwan de FERRIERES <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Will the slides be available on the Internet after your presentation ? I'm
> > not coming to the ApacheCon, but I am very interested to see what you've
> > done with Selenium.
> >
> >
> > Brett Palmer a écrit :
> >
> >  David,
> >> We have been using SeleniumRC and an extension called SeleniumXml that I
> >> will be presenting on at the ApacheCon conference next week.  These could
> >> be
> >> called from a normal ant process or used in Cruise Control.
> >>
> >> Let's talk more about this next week at the conference.
> >>
> >>
> >> Brett
> >>
> >> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:34 PM, David E Jones <[hidden email]
> >> >wrote:
> >>
> >>  Erwan,
> >>>
> >>> It would be great to have some tests that go through the user interface,
> >>> but we don't have tools for this yet that fit into the automated test
> >>> system
> >>> in OFBiz (ie so they can run along with other tests, and run
> >>> automatically).
> >>>
> >>> The goal is for the tests to all work with an "ant run-tests" (or "java
> >>> -jar ofbiz.jar tests"), and to cover as much of OFBiz OOTB as possible,
> >>> and
> >>> then to also be easy to customize or comment out those that no longer
> >>> apply
> >>> after people customize or add on to OFBiz.
> >>>
> >>> If you guys would like to work on getting Selenium tests to work this
> >>> way,
> >>> that would be great. Others have looked at this and run into troubles, so
> >>> the last idea I heard was to use something different and that might be
> >>> more
> >>> manual for initial test writing, but probably easier to maintain.
> >>>
> >>> At Hotwax we've written/recorded a bunch of Selenium tests for clients,
> >>> but
> >>> they are difficult to maintain and as far as we've gone they also have to
> >>> be
> >>> manually run and watched.
> >>>
> >>> -David
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 12:09 PM, Erwan de FERRIERES wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  Here at Nereide, we are ready to make selenium tests (it's a task we
> >>> have
> >>>
> >>>> planned to do, but which is always postponed....).
> >>>> So, if it's ok with you and that you are interested in that, we are
> >>>> going
> >>>> to make it real !
> >>>>
> >>>> David E Jones a écrit :
> >>>>
> >>>>  On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Adam Heath wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>  BJ Freeman wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  there has been an effort to put in test units.
> >>>>>>> the only thing lacking, in making it complete is manpower.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>  And fixing the existing tests that are broken. :|
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  This is an area where it would be REALLY GREAT to have more effort go
> >>>>> into the project. Yep, great enough to capitalize "REALLY" and "GREAT".
> >>>>> Who has worked on the unit tests that are in place? I'll admit I
> >>>>> haven't
> >>>>> much except on the toolset and some of the framework unit tests and
> >>>>> helping
> >>>>> some of the Hotwax Media people who wrote many of the tests that now
> >>>>> exist,
> >>>>> especially the ones in the various applications.
> >>>>> Is there anyone interested in working on this stuff? If there are
> >>>>> enough
> >>>>> people who want to actively work on it we can setup some coordination
> >>>>> resources (ie Jira tasks, confluence pages, etc). If there are only 2-3
> >>>>> then
> >>>>> coordination through the mailing list would be better, and more visible
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> others possibly interested.
> >>>>> -David
> >>>>>
> >>>>>  --
> >>>> - Erwan -
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> > --
> > - Erwan -
> >

--
Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive prices

[Jacques Le Roux]

I just wanted to remember any interested person about the Selenium lience issue we crossed some times ago and is still existing I'm
pretty sure (did not check though)
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-680?focusedCommentId=12470728#action_12470728

There is where we see what GPL viral issue is all about :(Just a little part and all is polluted, at least from our POV)

Jacques

From: "Jacques Le Roux" <[hidden email]>

> Thanks for the link Brett,
>
> Much appreciated
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Brett Palmer" <[hidden email]>
> FYI,
>
> Here is the link to the presentation on Selenium that I gave at the
> ApacheCon/OFBiz conference this week.  There were several good presentations
> on OFBiz this week.  Most of these are available at the us.apahecon.comwebsite.
>
> http://us.apachecon.com/presentation/materials/118/ApacheCon2008_SeleniumXml.pdf
>
>
> Brett
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Erwan de FERRIERES <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Will the slides be available on the Internet after your presentation ? I'm
>> not coming to the ApacheCon, but I am very interested to see what you've
>> done with Selenium.
>>
>>
>> Brett Palmer a écrit :
>>
>>  David,
>>> We have been using SeleniumRC and an extension called SeleniumXml that I
>>> will be presenting on at the ApacheCon conference next week.  These could
>>> be
>>> called from a normal ant process or used in Cruise Control.
>>>
>>> Let's talk more about this next week at the conference.
>>>
>>>
>>> Brett
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:34 PM, David E Jones <[hidden email]
>>> >wrote:
>>>
>>>  Erwan,
>>>>
>>>> It would be great to have some tests that go through the user interface,
>>>> but we don't have tools for this yet that fit into the automated test
>>>> system
>>>> in OFBiz (ie so they can run along with other tests, and run
>>>> automatically).
>>>>
>>>> The goal is for the tests to all work with an "ant run-tests" (or "java
>>>> -jar ofbiz.jar tests"), and to cover as much of OFBiz OOTB as possible,
>>>> and
>>>> then to also be easy to customize or comment out those that no longer
>>>> apply
>>>> after people customize or add on to OFBiz.
>>>>
>>>> If you guys would like to work on getting Selenium tests to work this
>>>> way,
>>>> that would be great. Others have looked at this and run into troubles, so
>>>> the last idea I heard was to use something different and that might be
>>>> more
>>>> manual for initial test writing, but probably easier to maintain.
>>>>
>>>> At Hotwax we've written/recorded a bunch of Selenium tests for clients,
>>>> but
>>>> they are difficult to maintain and as far as we've gone they also have to
>>>> be
>>>> manually run and watched.
>>>>
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 12:09 PM, Erwan de FERRIERES wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Here at Nereide, we are ready to make selenium tests (it's a task we
>>>> have
>>>>
>>>>> planned to do, but which is always postponed....).
>>>>> So, if it's ok with you and that you are interested in that, we are
>>>>> going
>>>>> to make it real !
>>>>>
>>>>> David E Jones a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>  On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Adam Heath wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  BJ Freeman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  there has been an effort to put in test units.
>>>>>>>> the only thing lacking, in making it complete is manpower.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  And fixing the existing tests that are broken. :|
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  This is an area where it would be REALLY GREAT to have more effort go
>>>>>> into the project. Yep, great enough to capitalize "REALLY" and "GREAT".
>>>>>> Who has worked on the unit tests that are in place? I'll admit I
>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>> much except on the toolset and some of the framework unit tests and
>>>>>> helping
>>>>>> some of the Hotwax Media people who wrote many of the tests that now
>>>>>> exist,
>>>>>> especially the ones in the various applications.
>>>>>> Is there anyone interested in working on this stuff? If there are
>>>>>> enough
>>>>>> people who want to actively work on it we can setup some coordination
>>>>>> resources (ie Jira tasks, confluence pages, etc). If there are only 2-3
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> coordination through the mailing list would be better, and more visible
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> others possibly interested.
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  --
>>>>> - Erwan -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> --
>> - Erwan -
>>
>

[Pranay Pandey-2]

Thanks Brett, Hans much appreciated.

Kind Regards
--
Pranay Pandey


On Nov 8, 2008, at 1:21 AM, Hans Bakker wrote:

> Thank you Brett,
>
> very interesting presentation. We sure should have these tests  
> included
> as part of the application test.
>
> Actually all of the OFBiz presentations are available at the following
> links:
> http://us.apachecon.com/c/acus2008/schedule/2008/11/05
> http://us.apachecon.com/c/acus2008/schedule/2008/11/06
>
> go to the presentation you are interested in and from that page the
> presentation slides can be downloaded.
>
> Regards,
> Hans
>
> On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 11:21 -0700, Brett Palmer wrote:
>> FYI,
>>
>> Here is the link to the presentation on Selenium that I gave at the
>> ApacheCon/OFBiz conference this week.  There were several good  
>> presentations
>> on OFBiz this week.  Most of these are available at the  
>> us.apahecon.comwebsite.
>>
>> http://us.apachecon.com/presentation/materials/118/ApacheCon2008_SeleniumXml.pdf
>>
>>
>> Brett
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Erwan de FERRIERES <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Will the slides be available on the Internet after your  
>>> presentation ? I'm
>>> not coming to the ApacheCon, but I am very interested to see what  
>>> you've
>>> done with Selenium.
>>>
>>>
>>> Brett Palmer a écrit :
>>>
>>> David,
>>>> We have been using SeleniumRC and an extension called SeleniumXml  
>>>> that I
>>>> will be presenting on at the ApacheCon conference next week.  
>>>> These could
>>>> be
>>>> called from a normal ant process or used in Cruise Control.
>>>>
>>>> Let's talk more about this next week at the conference.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brett
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:34 PM, David E Jones <[hidden email]
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Erwan,
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be great to have some tests that go through the user  
>>>>> interface,
>>>>> but we don't have tools for this yet that fit into the automated  
>>>>> test
>>>>> system
>>>>> in OFBiz (ie so they can run along with other tests, and run
>>>>> automatically).
>>>>>
>>>>> The goal is for the tests to all work with an "ant run-
>>>>> tests" (or "java
>>>>> -jar ofbiz.jar tests"), and to cover as much of OFBiz OOTB as  
>>>>> possible,
>>>>> and
>>>>> then to also be easy to customize or comment out those that no  
>>>>> longer
>>>>> apply
>>>>> after people customize or add on to OFBiz.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you guys would like to work on getting Selenium tests to work  
>>>>> this
>>>>> way,
>>>>> that would be great. Others have looked at this and run into  
>>>>> troubles, so
>>>>> the last idea I heard was to use something different and that  
>>>>> might be
>>>>> more
>>>>> manual for initial test writing, but probably easier to maintain.
>>>>>
>>>>> At Hotwax we've written/recorded a bunch of Selenium tests for  
>>>>> clients,
>>>>> but
>>>>> they are difficult to maintain and as far as we've gone they  
>>>>> also have to
>>>>> be
>>>>> manually run and watched.
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 12:09 PM, Erwan de FERRIERES wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Here at Nereide, we are ready to make selenium tests (it's a  
>>>>> task we
>>>>> have
>>>>>
>>>>>> planned to do, but which is always postponed....).
>>>>>> So, if it's ok with you and that you are interested in that, we  
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> going
>>>>>> to make it real !
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David E Jones a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Adam Heath wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BJ Freeman wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> there has been an effort to put in test units.
>>>>>>>>> the only thing lacking, in making it complete is manpower.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And fixing the existing tests that are broken. :|
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is an area where it would be REALLY GREAT to have more  
>>>>>>>> effort go
>>>>>>> into the project. Yep, great enough to capitalize "REALLY" and  
>>>>>>> "GREAT".
>>>>>>> Who has worked on the unit tests that are in place? I'll admit I
>>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>>> much except on the toolset and some of the framework unit  
>>>>>>> tests and
>>>>>>> helping
>>>>>>> some of the Hotwax Media people who wrote many of the tests  
>>>>>>> that now
>>>>>>> exist,
>>>>>>> especially the ones in the various applications.
>>>>>>> Is there anyone interested in working on this stuff? If there  
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> enough
>>>>>>> people who want to actively work on it we can setup some  
>>>>>>> coordination
>>>>>>> resources (ie Jira tasks, confluence pages, etc). If there are  
>>>>>>> only 2-3
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> coordination through the mailing list would be better, and  
>>>>>>> more visible
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> others possibly interested.
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Erwan -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> - Erwan -
>>>
> --
> Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive prices
>

[Tim Ruppert]

This is correct.  I know that Brett is going to take the ball and dig  
in on the license issue a bit more this next week.  It kinda depends  
on whether or not we can help to change some of the GPL libs in the  
product in order to make it fully Apache compliant - regardless, it's  
a great platform and maybe something we'll have to host ourselves . . .

Cheers,
Tim
--
Tim Ruppert
HotWax Media
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com

o:801.649.6594
f:801.649.6595

On Nov 7, 2008, at 1:25 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:

> I just wanted to remember any interested person about the Selenium  
> lience issue we crossed some times ago and is still existing I'm
> pretty sure (did not check though)
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-680?focusedCommentId=12470728 
> #action_12470728
>
> There is where we see what GPL viral issue is all about :(Just a  
> little part and all is polluted, at least from our POV)
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Jacques Le Roux" <[hidden email]>
>> Thanks for the link Brett,
>>
>> Much appreciated
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>> From: "Brett Palmer" <[hidden email]>
>> FYI,
>>
>> Here is the link to the presentation on Selenium that I gave at the
>> ApacheCon/OFBiz conference this week.  There were several good  
>> presentations
>> on OFBiz this week.  Most of these are available at the  
>> us.apahecon.comwebsite.
>>
>> http://us.apachecon.com/presentation/materials/118/ApacheCon2008_SeleniumXml.pdf
>>
>>
>> Brett
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Erwan de FERRIERES <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Will the slides be available on the Internet after your  
>>> presentation ? I'm
>>> not coming to the ApacheCon, but I am very interested to see what  
>>> you've
>>> done with Selenium.
>>>
>>>
>>> Brett Palmer a écrit :
>>>
>>> David,
>>>> We have been using SeleniumRC and an extension called SeleniumXml  
>>>> that I
>>>> will be presenting on at the ApacheCon conference next week.  
>>>> These could
>>>> be
>>>> called from a normal ant process or used in Cruise Control.
>>>>
>>>> Let's talk more about this next week at the conference.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brett
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:34 PM, David E Jones <[hidden email]
>>>> >wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Erwan,
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be great to have some tests that go through the user  
>>>>> interface,
>>>>> but we don't have tools for this yet that fit into the automated  
>>>>> test
>>>>> system
>>>>> in OFBiz (ie so they can run along with other tests, and run
>>>>> automatically).
>>>>>
>>>>> The goal is for the tests to all work with an "ant run-
>>>>> tests" (or "java
>>>>> -jar ofbiz.jar tests"), and to cover as much of OFBiz OOTB as  
>>>>> possible,
>>>>> and
>>>>> then to also be easy to customize or comment out those that no  
>>>>> longer
>>>>> apply
>>>>> after people customize or add on to OFBiz.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you guys would like to work on getting Selenium tests to work  
>>>>> this
>>>>> way,
>>>>> that would be great. Others have looked at this and run into  
>>>>> troubles, so
>>>>> the last idea I heard was to use something different and that  
>>>>> might be
>>>>> more
>>>>> manual for initial test writing, but probably easier to maintain.
>>>>>
>>>>> At Hotwax we've written/recorded a bunch of Selenium tests for  
>>>>> clients,
>>>>> but
>>>>> they are difficult to maintain and as far as we've gone they  
>>>>> also have to
>>>>> be
>>>>> manually run and watched.
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 12:09 PM, Erwan de FERRIERES wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Here at Nereide, we are ready to make selenium tests (it's a  
>>>>> task we
>>>>> have
>>>>>
>>>>>> planned to do, but which is always postponed....).
>>>>>> So, if it's ok with you and that you are interested in that, we  
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> going
>>>>>> to make it real !
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David E Jones a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Adam Heath wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BJ Freeman wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> there has been an effort to put in test units.
>>>>>>>>> the only thing lacking, in making it complete is manpower.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And fixing the existing tests that are broken. :|
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is an area where it would be REALLY GREAT to have more  
>>>>>>>> effort go
>>>>>>> into the project. Yep, great enough to capitalize "REALLY" and  
>>>>>>> "GREAT".
>>>>>>> Who has worked on the unit tests that are in place? I'll admit I
>>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>>> much except on the toolset and some of the framework unit  
>>>>>>> tests and
>>>>>>> helping
>>>>>>> some of the Hotwax Media people who wrote many of the tests  
>>>>>>> that now
>>>>>>> exist,
>>>>>>> especially the ones in the various applications.
>>>>>>> Is there anyone interested in working on this stuff? If there  
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> enough
>>>>>>> people who want to actively work on it we can setup some  
>>>>>>> coordination
>>>>>>> resources (ie Jira tasks, confluence pages, etc). If there are  
>>>>>>> only 2-3
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> coordination through the mailing list would be better, and  
>>>>>>> more visible
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> others possibly interested.
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Erwan -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> - Erwan -
>>>
>>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Hi Brett,

Just curious, have you ever used/tested Clover http://www.atlassian.com/software/clover/ ?

Thanks

Jacques

From: "Brett Palmer" <[hidden email]>
FYI,

Here is the link to the presentation on Selenium that I gave at the
ApacheCon/OFBiz conference this week.  There were several good presentations
on OFBiz this week.  Most of these are available at the us.apahecon.comwebsite.

http://us.apachecon.com/presentation/materials/118/ApacheCon2008_SeleniumXml.pdf


Brett



On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Erwan de FERRIERES <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Will the slides be available on the Internet after your presentation ? I'm
> not coming to the ApacheCon, but I am very interested to see what you've
> done with Selenium.
>
>
> Brett Palmer a écrit :
>
>  David,
>> We have been using SeleniumRC and an extension called SeleniumXml that I
>> will be presenting on at the ApacheCon conference next week.  These could
>> be
>> called from a normal ant process or used in Cruise Control.
>>
>> Let's talk more about this next week at the conference.
>>
>>
>> Brett
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:34 PM, David E Jones <[hidden email]
>> >wrote:
>>
>>  Erwan,
>>>
>>> It would be great to have some tests that go through the user interface,
>>> but we don't have tools for this yet that fit into the automated test
>>> system
>>> in OFBiz (ie so they can run along with other tests, and run
>>> automatically).
>>>
>>> The goal is for the tests to all work with an "ant run-tests" (or "java
>>> -jar ofbiz.jar tests"), and to cover as much of OFBiz OOTB as possible,
>>> and
>>> then to also be easy to customize or comment out those that no longer
>>> apply
>>> after people customize or add on to OFBiz.
>>>
>>> If you guys would like to work on getting Selenium tests to work this
>>> way,
>>> that would be great. Others have looked at this and run into troubles, so
>>> the last idea I heard was to use something different and that might be
>>> more
>>> manual for initial test writing, but probably easier to maintain.
>>>
>>> At Hotwax we've written/recorded a bunch of Selenium tests for clients,
>>> but
>>> they are difficult to maintain and as far as we've gone they also have to
>>> be
>>> manually run and watched.
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 12:09 PM, Erwan de FERRIERES wrote:
>>>
>>>  Here at Nereide, we are ready to make selenium tests (it's a task we
>>> have
>>>
>>>> planned to do, but which is always postponed....).
>>>> So, if it's ok with you and that you are interested in that, we are
>>>> going
>>>> to make it real !
>>>>
>>>> David E Jones a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>  On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Adam Heath wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  BJ Freeman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  there has been an effort to put in test units.
>>>>>>> the only thing lacking, in making it complete is manpower.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  And fixing the existing tests that are broken. :|
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  This is an area where it would be REALLY GREAT to have more effort go
>>>>> into the project. Yep, great enough to capitalize "REALLY" and "GREAT".
>>>>> Who has worked on the unit tests that are in place? I'll admit I
>>>>> haven't
>>>>> much except on the toolset and some of the framework unit tests and
>>>>> helping
>>>>> some of the Hotwax Media people who wrote many of the tests that now
>>>>> exist,
>>>>> especially the ones in the various applications.
>>>>> Is there anyone interested in working on this stuff? If there are
>>>>> enough
>>>>> people who want to actively work on it we can setup some coordination
>>>>> resources (ie Jira tasks, confluence pages, etc). If there are only 2-3
>>>>> then
>>>>> coordination through the mailing list would be better, and more visible
>>>>> to
>>>>> others possibly interested.
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>  --
>>>> - Erwan -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> --
> - Erwan -
>

[Brett]

Jacques,
I've worked with people that have used it and they speak very highly of the
product.  I haven't tried it myself though.

Brett

On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Jacques Le Roux <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Brett,
>
> Just curious, have you ever used/tested Clover
> http://www.atlassian.com/software/clover/ ?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Brett Palmer" <[hidden email]>
> FYI,
>
> Here is the link to the presentation on Selenium that I gave at the
> ApacheCon/OFBiz conference this week.  There were several good
> presentations
> on OFBiz this week.  Most of these are available at the
> us.apahecon.comwebsite.
>
>
> http://us.apachecon.com/presentation/materials/118/ApacheCon2008_SeleniumXml.pdf
>
>
> Brett
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Erwan de FERRIERES <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  Will the slides be available on the Internet after your presentation ? I'm
>> not coming to the ApacheCon, but I am very interested to see what you've
>> done with Selenium.
>>
>>
>> Brett Palmer a écrit :
>>
>>  David,
>>
>>> We have been using SeleniumRC and an extension called SeleniumXml that I
>>> will be presenting on at the ApacheCon conference next week.  These could
>>> be
>>> called from a normal ant process or used in Cruise Control.
>>>
>>> Let's talk more about this next week at the conference.
>>>
>>>
>>> Brett
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:34 PM, David E Jones <[hidden email]
>>> >wrote:
>>>
>>>  Erwan,
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would be great to have some tests that go through the user interface,
>>>> but we don't have tools for this yet that fit into the automated test
>>>> system
>>>> in OFBiz (ie so they can run along with other tests, and run
>>>> automatically).
>>>>
>>>> The goal is for the tests to all work with an "ant run-tests" (or "java
>>>> -jar ofbiz.jar tests"), and to cover as much of OFBiz OOTB as possible,
>>>> and
>>>> then to also be easy to customize or comment out those that no longer
>>>> apply
>>>> after people customize or add on to OFBiz.
>>>>
>>>> If you guys would like to work on getting Selenium tests to work this
>>>> way,
>>>> that would be great. Others have looked at this and run into troubles,
>>>> so
>>>> the last idea I heard was to use something different and that might be
>>>> more
>>>> manual for initial test writing, but probably easier to maintain.
>>>>
>>>> At Hotwax we've written/recorded a bunch of Selenium tests for clients,
>>>> but
>>>> they are difficult to maintain and as far as we've gone they also have
>>>> to
>>>> be
>>>> manually run and watched.
>>>>
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 12:09 PM, Erwan de FERRIERES wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Here at Nereide, we are ready to make selenium tests (it's a task we
>>>> have
>>>>
>>>>  planned to do, but which is always postponed....).
>>>>> So, if it's ok with you and that you are interested in that, we are
>>>>> going
>>>>> to make it real !
>>>>>
>>>>> David E Jones a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>  On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Adam Heath wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  BJ Freeman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  there has been an effort to put in test units.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the only thing lacking, in making it complete is manpower.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  And fixing the existing tests that are broken. :|
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  This is an area where it would be REALLY GREAT to have more effort
>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> into the project. Yep, great enough to capitalize "REALLY" and
>>>>>> "GREAT".
>>>>>> Who has worked on the unit tests that are in place? I'll admit I
>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>> much except on the toolset and some of the framework unit tests and
>>>>>> helping
>>>>>> some of the Hotwax Media people who wrote many of the tests that now
>>>>>> exist,
>>>>>> especially the ones in the various applications.
>>>>>> Is there anyone interested in working on this stuff? If there are
>>>>>> enough
>>>>>> people who want to actively work on it we can setup some coordination
>>>>>> resources (ie Jira tasks, confluence pages, etc). If there are only
>>>>>> 2-3
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> coordination through the mailing list would be better, and more
>>>>>> visible
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> others possibly interested.
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>
>>>>> - Erwan -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>  --
>> - Erwan -
>>
>>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Thanks Brett,

This question because maybe we could get a free licence in the ASF context, not sure though

Jacques

From: "Brett Palmer" <[hidden email]>
Jacques,
I've worked with people that have used it and they speak very highly of the
product.  I haven't tried it myself though.

Brett

On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Jacques Le Roux <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Brett,
>
> Just curious, have you ever used/tested Clover
> http://www.atlassian.com/software/clover/ ?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Brett Palmer" <[hidden email]>
> FYI,
>
> Here is the link to the presentation on Selenium that I gave at the
> ApacheCon/OFBiz conference this week.  There were several good
> presentations
> on OFBiz this week.  Most of these are available at the
> us.apahecon.comwebsite.
>
>
> http://us.apachecon.com/presentation/materials/118/ApacheCon2008_SeleniumXml.pdf
>
>
> Brett
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Erwan de FERRIERES <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  Will the slides be available on the Internet after your presentation ? I'm
>> not coming to the ApacheCon, but I am very interested to see what you've
>> done with Selenium.
>>
>>
>> Brett Palmer a écrit :
>>
>>  David,
>>
>>> We have been using SeleniumRC and an extension called SeleniumXml that I
>>> will be presenting on at the ApacheCon conference next week.  These could
>>> be
>>> called from a normal ant process or used in Cruise Control.
>>>
>>> Let's talk more about this next week at the conference.
>>>
>>>
>>> Brett
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:34 PM, David E Jones <[hidden email]
>>> >wrote:
>>>
>>>  Erwan,
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would be great to have some tests that go through the user interface,
>>>> but we don't have tools for this yet that fit into the automated test
>>>> system
>>>> in OFBiz (ie so they can run along with other tests, and run
>>>> automatically).
>>>>
>>>> The goal is for the tests to all work with an "ant run-tests" (or "java
>>>> -jar ofbiz.jar tests"), and to cover as much of OFBiz OOTB as possible,
>>>> and
>>>> then to also be easy to customize or comment out those that no longer
>>>> apply
>>>> after people customize or add on to OFBiz.
>>>>
>>>> If you guys would like to work on getting Selenium tests to work this
>>>> way,
>>>> that would be great. Others have looked at this and run into troubles,
>>>> so
>>>> the last idea I heard was to use something different and that might be
>>>> more
>>>> manual for initial test writing, but probably easier to maintain.
>>>>
>>>> At Hotwax we've written/recorded a bunch of Selenium tests for clients,
>>>> but
>>>> they are difficult to maintain and as far as we've gone they also have
>>>> to
>>>> be
>>>> manually run and watched.
>>>>
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 12:09 PM, Erwan de FERRIERES wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Here at Nereide, we are ready to make selenium tests (it's a task we
>>>> have
>>>>
>>>>  planned to do, but which is always postponed....).
>>>>> So, if it's ok with you and that you are interested in that, we are
>>>>> going
>>>>> to make it real !
>>>>>
>>>>> David E Jones a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>  On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Adam Heath wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  BJ Freeman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  there has been an effort to put in test units.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the only thing lacking, in making it complete is manpower.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  And fixing the existing tests that are broken. :|
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  This is an area where it would be REALLY GREAT to have more effort
>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> into the project. Yep, great enough to capitalize "REALLY" and
>>>>>> "GREAT".
>>>>>> Who has worked on the unit tests that are in place? I'll admit I
>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>> much except on the toolset and some of the framework unit tests and
>>>>>> helping
>>>>>> some of the Hotwax Media people who wrote many of the tests that now
>>>>>> exist,
>>>>>> especially the ones in the various applications.
>>>>>> Is there anyone interested in working on this stuff? If there are
>>>>>> enough
>>>>>> people who want to actively work on it we can setup some coordination
>>>>>> resources (ie Jira tasks, confluence pages, etc). If there are only
>>>>>> 2-3
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> coordination through the mailing list would be better, and more
>>>>>> visible
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> others possibly interested.
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>
>>>>> - Erwan -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>  --
>> - Erwan -
>>
>>
>

[Ean Schuessler]

Cobertura is a good Free Software alternative to Clover. It may not be everything that Clover is but its certainly not too bad.

http://webslinger.org/cobertura/

----- "Jacques Le Roux" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > Just curious, have you ever used/tested Clover
> > http://www.atlassian.com/software/clover/ ?

--
Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com
[hidden email] - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315

[Adam Heath-2]

Ean Schuessler wrote:
> Cobertura is a good Free Software alternative to Clover. It may not be everything that Clover is but its certainly not too bad.

Except that it is gpl.  There are no apache-compatible coverage tools.
I looked :(

However, any modifications I can come up with to ofbiz, to make it have
a plugin-type model for supporting any byte-code-modifying coverage
tool, would be under the correct license.

ps: Hint - I already have this plugin mostly done, just haven't written
an implementation.

[Jacques Le Roux]

Thanks Ean,

I just found that Clover is free for open source projects and non-profit institutions like ASF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlassian_clover

Cobertura looks good too (but I have no more to say at this stage).

Jacques

From: "Ean Schuessler" <[hidden email]>

> Cobertura is a good Free Software alternative to Clover. It may not be everything that Clover is but its certainly not too bad.
>
> http://webslinger.org/cobertura/
>
> ----- "Jacques Le Roux" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> > Just curious, have you ever used/tested Clover
>> > http://www.atlassian.com/software/clover/ ?
>
> --
> Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com
> [hidden email] - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315
>

[Pierre Smits]

Several times now I have seen statement that non Apache-products can't or
shouldn't be used because they gpl or hpl (even worse as somebody
mentioned). That sounds like 'we don't want it, because we (as in ASF
commiters) didn't invent it.

In my humble opinion this is not kosher. If a good product is out there and
it has an open source licence, it can be used. The only thing required is a
set of instructions how to use and/or include it in a user own installation
of OFBiz.

Regards,

Pierre.

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 7:05 PM, Adam Heath <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ean Schuessler wrote:
> > Cobertura is a good Free Software alternative to Clover. It may not be
> everything that Clover is but its certainly not too bad.
>
> Except that it is gpl.  There are no apache-compatible coverage tools.
> I looked :(
>
> However, any modifications I can come up with to ofbiz, to make it have
> a plugin-type model for supporting any byte-code-modifying coverage
> tool, would be under the correct license.
>
> ps: Hint - I already have this plugin mostly done, just haven't written
> an implementation.
>

[Scott Gray]

Hi Pierre

It has nothing to do with who invented it, it's about the restrictions
that other licenses place on the software.  GPL type licenses are
simply not compatible with the Apache license.  If you want to know
more you should google the topic but it is definitely not a matter of
pride.

Regards
Scott

2008/11/14 Pierre Smits <[hidden email]>:

> Several times now I have seen statement that non Apache-products can't or
> shouldn't be used because they gpl or hpl (even worse as somebody
> mentioned). That sounds like 'we don't want it, because we (as in ASF
> commiters) didn't invent it.
>
> In my humble opinion this is not kosher. If a good product is out there and
> it has an open source licence, it can be used. The only thing required is a
> set of instructions how to use and/or include it in a user own installation
> of OFBiz.
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre.
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 7:05 PM, Adam Heath <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Ean Schuessler wrote:
>> > Cobertura is a good Free Software alternative to Clover. It may not be
>> everything that Clover is but its certainly not too bad.
>>
>> Except that it is gpl.  There are no apache-compatible coverage tools.
>> I looked :(
>>
>> However, any modifications I can come up with to ofbiz, to make it have
>> a plugin-type model for supporting any byte-code-modifying coverage
>> tool, would be under the correct license.
>>
>> ps: Hint - I already have this plugin mostly done, just haven't written
>> an implementation.
>>
>

[Shi Yusen]

Glad finnally you point this out. The licenses shouldn't the excuse to
cease OFBiz's progress.

I think it's easy enough to write such things in build.xml and download
the jars during build though the jars are not allowed to put into
Apache's svn.

Shi Yusen/Beijing Langhua Ltd.


在 2008-11-13四的 20:39 +0100，Pierre Smits写道：

> Several times now I have seen statement that non Apache-products can't or
> shouldn't be used because they gpl or hpl (even worse as somebody
> mentioned). That sounds like 'we don't want it, because we (as in ASF
> commiters) didn't invent it.
>
> In my humble opinion this is not kosher. If a good product is out there and
> it has an open source licence, it can be used. The only thing required is a
> set of instructions how to use and/or include it in a user own installation
> of OFBiz.
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre.
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 7:05 PM, Adam Heath <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Ean Schuessler wrote:
> > > Cobertura is a good Free Software alternative to Clover. It may not be
> > everything that Clover is but its certainly not too bad.
> >
> > Except that it is gpl.  There are no apache-compatible coverage tools.
> > I looked :(
> >
> > However, any modifications I can come up with to ofbiz, to make it have
> > a plugin-type model for supporting any byte-code-modifying coverage
> > tool, would be under the correct license.
> >
> > ps: Hint - I already have this plugin mostly done, just haven't written
> > an implementation.
> >

[David E Jones-3]

Pierre,

The not invented here excuse? I do so wish it were that simple.  
Unfortunately, it is not. Fortunately, OFBiz is way more mature than  
that and the people involved are way more mature and experienced than  
that.

OFBiz has well over 100 third party libraries in it and most of those  
are not from other ASF projects. Also, keep in mind that OFBiz was not  
originally (ie from 2001) part of the ASF, and in 2006 when we were  
working on the ASF incubation the only libraries that changed were to  
use the transaction manager in Geronimo.

For LGPL libraries it is true that we can write code that uses the  
libraries, but we can't distribute the libraries with OFBiz. That  
means we have to turn off all of the features that depend on them by  
default, and turn off the build sections related to them. There are a  
whole bunch of these already, and they are enough of a pain that  
basically NO ONE uses them (see the ofbiz/OPTIONAL_LIBRARIES file for  
details). If people had to do this for lots of libraries to do basic  
things with OFBiz, it would kill the project. And, we've found through  
experience that features that require these sorts of external/optional  
libraries are simply not used. And for testing, we want it to be used,  
preferably by everyone.

In fact that's the point: we're trying to get testing infrastructure  
in place that is good enough and easy enough so that everyone _will_  
start using it.

For GPL libraries we can't even write code that uses them, otherwise  
we'd have to license that code under the GPL license. We have chosen  
for very significant reasons to use a BSD-style license, namely Apache  
License 2.0, and we don't want OFBiz to be GPL licensed. If any part  
of OFBiz was GPL licensed (not allowed at the ASF for legal reasons)  
then any other code in the project that uses it would have to be GPL  
licensed, and so on. So, it's not an option for ANYTHING, because we  
don't want it to happen to EVERYTHING. If OFBiz was GPL licensed it  
would remove a lot of motivations that people have to work on it, make  
it incompatible with the customizations that most end-user  
organizations want to do, and basically kill the project (notice how  
no community-driven ERP projects exist that are GPL licensed, just  
commercially driven ones and they want to use GPL so that people have  
a reason to buy a commercial license).

-David


On Nov 13, 2008, at 1:39 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:

> Several times now I have seen statement that non Apache-products  
> can't or
> shouldn't be used because they gpl or hpl (even worse as somebody
> mentioned). That sounds like 'we don't want it, because we (as in ASF
> commiters) didn't invent it.
>
> In my humble opinion this is not kosher. If a good product is out  
> there and
> it has an open source licence, it can be used. The only thing  
> required is a
> set of instructions how to use and/or include it in a user own  
> installation
> of OFBiz.
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre.
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 7:05 PM, Adam Heath <[hidden email]>  
> wrote:
>
>> Ean Schuessler wrote:
>>> Cobertura is a good Free Software alternative to Clover. It may  
>>> not be
>> everything that Clover is but its certainly not too bad.
>>
>> Except that it is gpl.  There are no apache-compatible coverage  
>> tools.
>> I looked :(
>>
>> However, any modifications I can come up with to ofbiz, to make it  
>> have
>> a plugin-type model for supporting any byte-code-modifying coverage
>> tool, would be under the correct license.
>>
>> ps: Hint - I already have this plugin mostly done, just haven't  
>> written
>> an implementation.
>>

[Shi Yusen]

Thanks. I see now. For some other open source communities, they may say
no Apache license as they may have their own brand.

Some bridges are needed.

I'll build a community website (langhua.org) in 2009. I'll use this
slogan for the community: they are mountains, we are a small valley.

Regards,

Shi Yusen

在 2008-11-13四的 14:04 -0600，David E Jones写道：

> Pierre,
>
> The not invented here excuse? I do so wish it were that simple.  
> Unfortunately, it is not. Fortunately, OFBiz is way more mature than  
> that and the people involved are way more mature and experienced than  
> that.
>
> OFBiz has well over 100 third party libraries in it and most of those  
> are not from other ASF projects. Also, keep in mind that OFBiz was not  
> originally (ie from 2001) part of the ASF, and in 2006 when we were  
> working on the ASF incubation the only libraries that changed were to  
> use the transaction manager in Geronimo.
>
> For LGPL libraries it is true that we can write code that uses the  
> libraries, but we can't distribute the libraries with OFBiz. That  
> means we have to turn off all of the features that depend on them by  
> default, and turn off the build sections related to them. There are a  
> whole bunch of these already, and they are enough of a pain that  
> basically NO ONE uses them (see the ofbiz/OPTIONAL_LIBRARIES file for  
> details). If people had to do this for lots of libraries to do basic  
> things with OFBiz, it would kill the project. And, we've found through  
> experience that features that require these sorts of external/optional  
> libraries are simply not used. And for testing, we want it to be used,  
> preferably by everyone.
>
> In fact that's the point: we're trying to get testing infrastructure  
> in place that is good enough and easy enough so that everyone _will_  
> start using it.
>
> For GPL libraries we can't even write code that uses them, otherwise  
> we'd have to license that code under the GPL license. We have chosen  
> for very significant reasons to use a BSD-style license, namely Apache  
> License 2.0, and we don't want OFBiz to be GPL licensed. If any part  
> of OFBiz was GPL licensed (not allowed at the ASF for legal reasons)  
> then any other code in the project that uses it would have to be GPL  
> licensed, and so on. So, it's not an option for ANYTHING, because we  
> don't want it to happen to EVERYTHING. If OFBiz was GPL licensed it  
> would remove a lot of motivations that people have to work on it, make  
> it incompatible with the customizations that most end-user  
> organizations want to do, and basically kill the project (notice how  
> no community-driven ERP projects exist that are GPL licensed, just  
> commercially driven ones and they want to use GPL so that people have  
> a reason to buy a commercial license).
>
> -David
>
>
> On Nov 13, 2008, at 1:39 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>
> > Several times now I have seen statement that non Apache-products  
> > can't or
> > shouldn't be used because they gpl or hpl (even worse as somebody
> > mentioned). That sounds like 'we don't want it, because we (as in ASF
> > commiters) didn't invent it.
> >
> > In my humble opinion this is not kosher. If a good product is out  
> > there and
> > it has an open source licence, it can be used. The only thing  
> > required is a
> > set of instructions how to use and/or include it in a user own  
> > installation
> > of OFBiz.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Pierre.
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 7:05 PM, Adam Heath <[hidden email]>  
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Ean Schuessler wrote:
> >>> Cobertura is a good Free Software alternative to Clover. It may  
> >>> not be
> >> everything that Clover is but its certainly not too bad.
> >>
> >> Except that it is gpl.  There are no apache-compatible coverage  
> >> tools.
> >> I looked :(
> >>
> >> However, any modifications I can come up with to ofbiz, to make it  
> >> have
> >> a plugin-type model for supporting any byte-code-modifying coverage
> >> tool, would be under the correct license.
> >>
> >> ps: Hint - I already have this plugin mostly done, just haven't  
> >> written
> >> an implementation.
> >>
>

[Adam Heath-2]

Jacques Le Roux wrote:
> Thanks Ean,
>
> I just found that Clover is free for open source projects and non-profit
> institutions like ASF
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlassian_clover

So non-free then.

[David E Jones-3]

On Nov 13, 2008, at 6:57 PM, Adam Heath wrote:

> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> Thanks Ean,
>>
>> I just found that Clover is free for open source projects and non-
>> profit
>> institutions like ASF
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlassian_clover
>
> So non-free then.

... AND non-open-source.

It would be nice to find something that allows for more independent  
infrastructure. One direction we're trying to push is to move away  
from other Atlassian products, like Jira and Confluence. Not that they  
aren't good, but we want to start "eating our own dog-food".

-David

[Erwan de FERRIERES-3]

Selenium projects are under the Apache 2.0 license. So, what are we
waiting to integrate it ?

http://selenium-ide.seleniumhq.org/license.jsp

Jacques Le Roux a écrit :

> I just wanted to remember any interested person about the Selenium
> lience issue we crossed some times ago and is still existing I'm
> pretty sure (did not check though)
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-680?focusedCommentId=12470728#action_12470728 
>
>
> There is where we see what GPL viral issue is all about :(Just a little
> part and all is polluted, at least from our POV)
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Jacques Le Roux" <[hidden email]>
>> Thanks for the link Brett,
>>
>> Much appreciated
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>> From: "Brett Palmer" <[hidden email]>
>> FYI,
>>
>> Here is the link to the presentation on Selenium that I gave at the
>> ApacheCon/OFBiz conference this week.  There were several good
>> presentations
>> on OFBiz this week.  Most of these are available at the
>> us.apahecon.comwebsite.
>>
>> http://us.apachecon.com/presentation/materials/118/ApacheCon2008_SeleniumXml.pdf 
>>
>>
>>
>> Brett
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Erwan de FERRIERES <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Will the slides be available on the Internet after your presentation
>>> ? I'm
>>> not coming to the ApacheCon, but I am very interested to see what you've
>>> done with Selenium.
>>>
>>>
>>> Brett Palmer a écrit :
>>>
>>>  David,
>>>> We have been using SeleniumRC and an extension called SeleniumXml
>>>> that I
>>>> will be presenting on at the ApacheCon conference next week.  These
>>>> could
>>>> be
>>>> called from a normal ant process or used in Cruise Control.
>>>>
>>>> Let's talk more about this next week at the conference.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brett
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:34 PM, David E Jones <[hidden email]
>>>> >wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Erwan,
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be great to have some tests that go through the user
>>>>> interface,
>>>>> but we don't have tools for this yet that fit into the automated test
>>>>> system
>>>>> in OFBiz (ie so they can run along with other tests, and run
>>>>> automatically).
>>>>>
>>>>> The goal is for the tests to all work with an "ant run-tests" (or
>>>>> "java
>>>>> -jar ofbiz.jar tests"), and to cover as much of OFBiz OOTB as
>>>>> possible,
>>>>> and
>>>>> then to also be easy to customize or comment out those that no longer
>>>>> apply
>>>>> after people customize or add on to OFBiz.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you guys would like to work on getting Selenium tests to work this
>>>>> way,
>>>>> that would be great. Others have looked at this and run into
>>>>> troubles, so
>>>>> the last idea I heard was to use something different and that might be
>>>>> more
>>>>> manual for initial test writing, but probably easier to maintain.
>>>>>
>>>>> At Hotwax we've written/recorded a bunch of Selenium tests for
>>>>> clients,
>>>>> but
>>>>> they are difficult to maintain and as far as we've gone they also
>>>>> have to
>>>>> be
>>>>> manually run and watched.
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 12:09 PM, Erwan de FERRIERES wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  Here at Nereide, we are ready to make selenium tests (it's a task we
>>>>> have
>>>>>
>>>>>> planned to do, but which is always postponed....).
>>>>>> So, if it's ok with you and that you are interested in that, we are
>>>>>> going
>>>>>> to make it real !
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David E Jones a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Adam Heath wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  BJ Freeman wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  there has been an effort to put in test units.
>>>>>>>>> the only thing lacking, in making it complete is manpower.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  And fixing the existing tests that are broken. :|
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  This is an area where it would be REALLY GREAT to have more
>>>>>>>> effort go
>>>>>>> into the project. Yep, great enough to capitalize "REALLY" and
>>>>>>> "GREAT".
>>>>>>> Who has worked on the unit tests that are in place? I'll admit I
>>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>>> much except on the toolset and some of the framework unit tests and
>>>>>>> helping
>>>>>>> some of the Hotwax Media people who wrote many of the tests that now
>>>>>>> exist,
>>>>>>> especially the ones in the various applications.
>>>>>>> Is there anyone interested in working on this stuff? If there are
>>>>>>> enough
>>>>>>> people who want to actively work on it we can setup some
>>>>>>> coordination
>>>>>>> resources (ie Jira tasks, confluence pages, etc). If there are
>>>>>>> only 2-3
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> coordination through the mailing list would be better, and more
>>>>>>> visible
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> others possibly interested.
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>> - Erwan -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> - Erwan -
>>>
>>
>
>

--
- Erwan -