The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion

[Pierre Smits]

Hi All,

I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.

Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great opportunity
to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
communications via mailing lists.

I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find below a
small overview of starting times in different timezones:

LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
- California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
06:30:00PDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html>UTC-7
hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179> (U.S.A.
- New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
09:30:00EDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html>UTC-4
hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136> (United
Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
13:30:00GMT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
(Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
14:30:00CET<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html>UTC+1
hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
(Russia)Thursday,
13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html>UTC+4
hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438> (India
- Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
19:00:00IST<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html>UTC+5:30
hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
(Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
20:30:00ICT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html>UTC+7
hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22> (New
Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
02:30:00NZDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html>UTC+13
hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can always
more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com

*Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: [hidden email]
<[hidden email]>*

*Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
*Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
*Duration: * 2 hr.

*Notes: *

 *Free Conference Call*
 Conference Dial-in Number: [phone] (Number in the Netherlands)
 Participant Access Code: 779895#



<http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070>

When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by the
# key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and have
access to the touch tone commands listed below.


Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting


I hope to see you there.

With regards

Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

[Pierre Smits]

Hi all,

If you should have any constraints regarding attendance (meaning not being
able to attend), please drop a message to the general OFBiz ML (
[hidden email]) with what you think should be addressed so that
others can be aware of this.

Regards,

Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

[taher]

We would love to attend representing Pythys software in Kuwait. We have
some thoughts to contribute especially with respect to documentation and
and having components eco-system

Taher Alkhateeb
On Mar 7, 2014 2:06 PM, "Pierre Smits" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> If you should have any constraints regarding attendance (meaning not being
> able to attend), please drop a message to the general OFBiz ML (
> [hidden email]) with what you think should be addressed so that
> others can be aware of this.
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>

[Paul Piper]

Hi Pierre,

unfortunately I won't be able to attend. We got a presentation to attend and it isn't guerenteed that we can make it on time. I am still hoping for a lunch break in between I could stop by, but for now I will have to attend a follow-up.

[Pierre Smits]

Paul,

Duly noted. If there is anything that you want to be addressed at the
teleconferece, please share it here so that others can take note of it and
discuss it.

Regards,

Pierre.

Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

[Pierre Smits]

Jacques,

Thank you for sharing your views and position.

I agree with you that, while ample tools are available to community members
in projects under the ASF umbrella - such as: Barcamps, ApacheCons, skype
calls and teleconferences - to exchange viewpoints and to discuss topics,
the outcome of these real and virtual meetings must be shared through ML of
the project to hold merit in the community.
Indeed, this is one of the principles of the ASF. And the reasoning behind
is simple: if not persisted through the ML of the project it isn't shared
with all its community members. And follow-up can not be established.

But not everybody is not as good in putting words down on paper and email.
Some are better in expressing themselves verbally. These community members
may share their viewpoints too and this teleconference is also a tool to
enable them too.
I have invited everybody participating in this project through all
available mailing lists to ensure that everybody in the OFBiz community has
been reached.

So you can rest assured that discussions will be within the complete OFBiz
community.

I am somewhat puzzled that you feel that holding an open discussion on the
functioning of the project and its future is an initiative against the PMC.
Are PMC members first and foremost not also community members? And as
community members may they not also share their viewpoints in discussions
in the community in other means than the ML?

If you or some of your peers (in both PMC and committers group) feel that
participating in an open discussion on topics as the functioning and future
of OFBiz is an initiative against the institute of the PMC of a project
then you and they should speak up.

You mentioned sides. I say we are one community.

Regards,


Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com


On Sun, Mar 9, 2014 at 10:37 PM, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Paul,
>
> Duly noted. If there is anything that you want to be addressed at the
> teleconferece, please share it here so that others can take note of it and
> discuss it.
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre.
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

 >I am somewhat puzzled that you feel that holding an open discussion on the functioning of the project and its future is an initiative against the PMC.

I have this impression because initially this discussion was not open. Only because Christian opened it by accident the rest of the community was aware.

Reminders (to summarize):
Christian wrote
 >Eh, my fault, I replied to ML which opened the hood.

You initially wrote:
 >In fact, currently only 5 are somewhat active and of those 5 active members 3 are of the same company (hotwax). Given that the 5 PMC members are
also the 5 active committers it seems that working in the interest of the project (which as the ASF states should be 'community over code') isn't
happening that much any more. Only 1 is actively involved in participating in the community. And the others seem to be committed to achieve their own
agenda in stead of being committed to the project.

Some others, at least Al, share your belief on the PMC, Al wrote:
 >This seems like a test of the Apache framework - does it provide for the long-term life of a project when it conflicts with the self-interests of
the PMC?

It seems to me that we should all try to understand the reasons which push the PMC to be very cautious with new comers.

I don't think exactly like Al, but unfortunately there is some truth in his belief. For me, the most important reason the PMC is less open to new
committers than before is because we fear that changes done in OFBiz will not be monitored enough. This comes from past experience and also because
OFBiz is now more stable and we want to keep this level of quality (still improving of course). But this way of thinking built a vicious circle: there
are less and less experienced committers (as the PMC wiki page now shows, several committers have found "greener pastures", or for other reasons they
left, that's life...)

Personally I have always favoured the entrance of new committers. I believe I'm the one who proposed the more to invite new people. My last 3
proposals were refused, and I must say with good arguments. To facilitate new arrivals I think we should amend our rules about what a new OFBiz
committer can do or not. Unfortunately this is not the ASF way, where peers are peers. We are currently discussing new possibilities in the PMC...

Jacques

Le 09/03/2014 23:24, Pierre Smits a écrit :

> Jacques,
>
> Thank you for sharing your views and position.
>
> I agree with you that, while ample tools are available to community members
> in projects under the ASF umbrella - such as: Barcamps, ApacheCons, skype
> calls and teleconferences - to exchange viewpoints and to discuss topics,
> the outcome of these real and virtual meetings must be shared through ML of
> the project to hold merit in the community.
> Indeed, this is one of the principles of the ASF. And the reasoning behind
> is simple: if not persisted through the ML of the project it isn't shared
> with all its community members. And follow-up can not be established.
>
> But not everybody is not as good in putting words down on paper and email.
> Some are better in expressing themselves verbally. These community members
> may share their viewpoints too and this teleconference is also a tool to
> enable them too.
> I have invited everybody participating in this project through all
> available mailing lists to ensure that everybody in the OFBiz community has
> been reached.
>
> So you can rest assured that discussions will be within the complete OFBiz
> community.
>
> I am somewhat puzzled that you feel that holding an open discussion on the
> functioning of the project and its future is an initiative against the PMC.
> Are PMC members first and foremost not also community members? And as
> community members may they not also share their viewpoints in discussions
> in the community in other means than the ML?
>
> If you or some of your peers (in both PMC and committers group) feel that
> participating in an open discussion on topics as the functioning and future
> of OFBiz is an initiative against the institute of the PMC of a project
> then you and they should speak up.
>
> You mentioned sides. I say we are one community.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 9, 2014 at 10:37 PM, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> Duly noted. If there is anything that you want to be addressed at the
>> teleconferece, please share it here so that others can take note of it and
>> discuss it.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Pierre.
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>
>>
>>

[Pierre Smits]

Jacques,

I know what I wrote and to whom. I see that you are also creating
impressions by foregoing stuff that I also wrote and was included in the
reply by Christian.

Anyway, you raise interesting points, like:
"the PMC is less open to new committers than before is because we fear that
changes done in OFBiz will not be monitored enough"...

Regards,


Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

[Pierre Smits]

David,

Thank you for sharing your insights and viewpoints on the health and future
of OFBiz in that other thread in this ML.


Please join us tomorrow in the teleconference to discuss this and the
viewpoints of our other community members. It will surely be appreciated.

Regards,


Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com


On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 10:18 PM, Pierre Smits <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Jacques,
>
> I know what I wrote and to whom. I see that you are also creating
> impressions by foregoing stuff that I also wrote and was included in the
> reply by Christian.
>
> Anyway, you raise interesting points, like:
> "the PMC is less open to new committers than before is because we fear
> that changes done in OFBiz will not be monitored enough"...
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>

[Scott Gray-2]

I won't be attending simply because it is organized by Pierre (and because the genesis of this meeting seems to have come from a very negative perspective). Those of you who are new to the community or who he is polite to may not be aware of how rude Pierre can be.  While he does do some good work from time to time I believe his presence in the community causes more harm than good.  He has almost continuously attacked or worked against the PMC for the last year or two and I simply have no interest in hearing anything he has to say any longer.  Almost no one seems to remember that he told the ASF he would chair an OFBiz presence at an ApacheCon a year or so ago, it was advertised, calls for papers/talks were made and submitted and then not long before the conference... he disappeared with no explanation to anyone.  PMC members were forced to attend the conference (that he organized without consulting the PMC at all) and chair in his place on short notice to maintain the credibility of the project.  As far as I know he has never apologized to or thanked those who took his place and never offered an explanation, he simply reappeared 6 months later and carried on causing trouble as usual.  I have a hard time believing Pierre will ever be a committer or core contributor to this project so long as he continues to spectacularly fail at working well with others (this is just my opinion, I'm only one voice of many in the community).  While I believe he is a destructive force in the community, there is nothing I can do about that, everyone is pretty much free to do as they please.  It's up to each and every one of you to decide what he brings to the table and interact with him accordingly.

People talk about PMC "hidden agendas" and other conspiracy theories but often the reality is that it can be difficult to find motivation to work on a project that is constantly critical of the work you do.  When I joined this project there was very little infighting and contributing was a rewarding experience that earned you respect and praise from your peers.  It's a warm fuzzy feeling that keeps you active at nights and on weekends working on something you're passionate about.  For me, that passion is fast disappearing because of people like Pierre (he is certainly not the first but he is particularly vocal).  It feels like I'm regularly reading critical emails from various community members, either of the way the project is run or the way the project is progressing.  What I very rarely see is any action behind the talk; people suggest major changes and then carry on with their day.  No one actually gets anything done.  I'm sure some of you would replace the entire PMC given half the chance and that may seem like some great achievement, but eventually...  you're going to have to actually do something tangible to keep the community happy and achieve the goals you speak of.  If you're not doing anything tangible now, then you're as much a part of the problem as anyone else, take pause before you throw those stones.  You're being critical of those who have stayed when others have come and gone, those who have contributed more unpaid hours than most.

How many of you can claim that you do the work in project that would match what you'd like to see from a committer or PMC member?  There is absolutely nothing stopping you from making that type of contribution right now, so what is the issue?

For those of you who have an opinion but aren't actually doing anything tangible (commit reviews, patch reviews, ticket research, contributing designs and documentation), the brighter future of OFBiz starts with you.  Be the change that you want to see, go and do something productive for the project instead of complaining about what others are not doing.  Just to be clear, contributing to general discussions isn't much of a contribution, it's extremely rare that they result in anything positive actually happening.

Regards
Scott


On 7/03/2014, at 9:00 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
> functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.
>
> Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
> would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great opportunity
> to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
> communications via mailing lists.
>
> I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
> tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
> teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
> have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find below a
> small overview of starting times in different timezones:
>
> LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
> Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
> - California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 06:30:00PDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html>UTC-7
> hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179> (U.S.A.
> - New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 09:30:00EDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html>UTC-4
> hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136> (United
> Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 13:30:00GMT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
> UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
> (Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 14:30:00CET<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html>UTC+1
> hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
> (Russia)Thursday,
> 13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html>UTC+4
> hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438> (India
> - Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 19:00:00IST<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html>UTC+5:30
> hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
> (Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 20:30:00ICT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html>UTC+7
> hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22> (New
> Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
> 02:30:00NZDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html>UTC+13
> hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
> Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can always
> more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com
>
> *Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: [hidden email]
> <[hidden email]>*
>
> *Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
> *Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
> *Duration: * 2 hr.
>
> *Notes: *
>
> *Free Conference Call*
> Conference Dial-in Number: [phone] (Number in the Netherlands)
> Participant Access Code: 779895#
>
>
>
> <http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070>
>
> When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by the
> # key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and have
> access to the touch tone commands listed below.
>
>
> Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
> instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
>
>
> I hope to see you there.
>
> With regards
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com

[Pierre Smits]

Hi All,

I herewith take the opportunity to remind you of the upcoming *Open
Discussion on the Health and Future of OFBiz* (3 hour warning notice) at
14:30 AMS time (CET) via teleconference.

The main agenda items are:

   1. the health of the project
   2. the future of the project


The teleconference is hosted by means of the services of
http://freeconferencecall.com , who provides dial-in access numbers in
various countries.

For the different timezone you might be in please find below a shortlist of
the start time in potentially your timezone:

LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
- California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
06:30:00PDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html>UTC-7
hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179> (U.S.A.
- New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
09:30:00EDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html>UTC-4
hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136> (United
Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
13:30:00GMT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
 (Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
14:30:00CET<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html>UTC+1
hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
(Russia)Thursday,
13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html>UTC+4
hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438> (India
- Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
19:00:00IST<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html>UTC+5:30
hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
 (Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
20:30:00ICT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html>UTC+7
hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22> (New
Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
02:30:00NZDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html>UTC+13
hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
Please remember the access code needed to participate:

 *Free Conference Call*
 Conference Dial-in Number: [phone] (Number in the Netherlands)
 Participant Access Code: 779895#



<http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070>

When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by the
# key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and have
access to the touch tone commands listed below.


Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting

I look forward to meeting you there and an open and constructive discussion.

Regards,

Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

[Jacopo Cappellato-4]

I would like to mention that Pierre is the only one person in the history of the project that sent his remarks against the OFBiz PMC to the Board of the Apache Software Foundation, asking them to step-in and act versus the OFBiz PMC: he actually did it twice (2 years ago and again yesterday). Since his remarks were made of inaccurate information, baseless assertions, exaggerations, it was easy for the OFBiz PMC to clarify the situation with the Board.
However, besides being very annoying and distracting, these behaviors are against the OFBiz community's spirit: in fact we had very few persons acting like Pierre in the whole history of OFBiz.
If you are new to the project and you are reading or listening to Pierre's statements, please be aware of this information and put them in the right context.

Jacopo

On Mar 13, 2014, at 7:52 AM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I won't be attending simply because it is organized by Pierre (and because the genesis of this meeting seems to have come from a very negative perspective). Those of you who are new to the community or who he is polite to may not be aware of how rude Pierre can be.  While he does do some good work from time to time I believe his presence in the community causes more harm than good.  He has almost continuously attacked or worked against the PMC for the last year or two and I simply have no interest in hearing anything he has to say any longer.  Almost no one seems to remember that he told the ASF he would chair an OFBiz presence at an ApacheCon a year or so ago, it was advertised, calls for papers/talks were made and submitted and then not long before the conference... he disappeared with no explanation to anyone.  PMC members were forced to attend the conference (that he organized without consulting the PMC at all) and chair in his place on short notice to maintain the credibility of the project.  As far as I know he has never apologized to or thanked those who took his place and never offered an explanation, he simply reappeared 6 months later and carried on causing trouble as usual.  I have a hard time believing Pierre will ever be a committer or core contributor to this project so long as he continues to spectacularly fail at working well with others (this is just my opinion, I'm only one voice of many in the community).  While I believe he is a destructive force in the community, there is nothing I can do about that, everyone is pretty much free to do as they please.  It's up to each and every one of you to decide what he brings to the table and interact with him accordingly.
>
> People talk about PMC "hidden agendas" and other conspiracy theories but often the reality is that it can be difficult to find motivation to work on a project that is constantly critical of the work you do.  When I joined this project there was very little infighting and contributing was a rewarding experience that earned you respect and praise from your peers.  It's a warm fuzzy feeling that keeps you active at nights and on weekends working on something you're passionate about.  For me, that passion is fast disappearing because of people like Pierre (he is certainly not the first but he is particularly vocal).  It feels like I'm regularly reading critical emails from various community members, either of the way the project is run or the way the project is progressing.  What I very rarely see is any action behind the talk; people suggest major changes and then carry on with their day.  No one actually gets anything done.  I'm sure some of you would replace the entire PMC given half the chance and that may seem like some great achievement, but eventually...  you're going to have to actually do something tangible to keep the community happy and achieve the goals you speak of.  If you're not doing anything tangible now, then you're as much a part of the problem as anyone else, take pause before you throw those stones.  You're being critical of those who have stayed when others have come and gone, those who have contributed more unpaid hours than most.
>
> How many of you can claim that you do the work in project that would match what you'd like to see from a committer or PMC member?  There is absolutely nothing stopping you from making that type of contribution right now, so what is the issue?
>
> For those of you who have an opinion but aren't actually doing anything tangible (commit reviews, patch reviews, ticket research, contributing designs and documentation), the brighter future of OFBiz starts with you.  Be the change that you want to see, go and do something productive for the project instead of complaining about what others are not doing.  Just to be clear, contributing to general discussions isn't much of a contribution, it's extremely rare that they result in anything positive actually happening.
>
> Regards
> Scott
>
>
> On 7/03/2014, at 9:00 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
>> functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.
>>
>> Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
>> would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great opportunity
>> to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
>> communications via mailing lists.
>>
>> I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
>> tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
>> teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
>> have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find below a
>> small overview of starting times in different timezones:
>>
>> LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
>> Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
>> - California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 06:30:00PDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html>UTC-7
>> hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179> (U.S.A.
>> - New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 09:30:00EDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html>UTC-4
>> hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136> (United
>> Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 13:30:00GMT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
>> UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
>> (Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 14:30:00CET<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html>UTC+1
>> hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
>> (Russia)Thursday,
>> 13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html>UTC+4
>> hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438> (India
>> - Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 19:00:00IST<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html>UTC+5:30
>> hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
>> (Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 20:30:00ICT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html>UTC+7
>> hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22> (New
>> Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
>> 02:30:00NZDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html>UTC+13
>> hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
>> Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can always
>> more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com
>>
>> *Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: [hidden email]
>> <[hidden email]>*
>>
>> *Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
>> *Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
>> *Duration: * 2 hr.
>>
>> *Notes: *
>>
>> *Free Conference Call*
>> Conference Dial-in Number: [phone] (Number in the Netherlands)
>> Participant Access Code: 779895#
>>
>>
>>
>> <http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070>
>>
>> When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by the
>> # key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and have
>> access to the touch tone commands listed below.
>>
>>
>> Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
>> instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
>>
>>
>> I hope to see you there.
>>
>> With regards
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>

[Mike Z]

> I believe he is a destructive force in the community

This is an inappropriate venue for personal attacks.


On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 11:52 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
> I won't be attending simply because it is organized by Pierre (and because
> the genesis of this meeting seems to have come from a very negative
> perspective). Those of you who are new to the community or who he is polite
> to may not be aware of how rude Pierre can be.  While he does do some good
> work from time to time I believe his presence in the community causes more
> harm than good.  He has almost continuously attacked or worked against the
> PMC for the last year or two and I simply have no interest in hearing
> anything he has to say any longer.  Almost no one seems to remember that he
> told the ASF he would chair an OFBiz presence at an ApacheCon a year or so
> ago, it was advertised, calls for papers/talks were made and submitted and
> then not long before the conference... he disappeared with no explanation
> to anyone.  PMC members were forced to attend the conference (that he
> organized without consulting the PMC at all) and chair in his place on
> short notice to maintain the credibility of the project.  As far as I know
> he has never apologized to or thanked those who took his place and never
> offered an explanation, he simply reappeared 6 months later and carried on
> causing trouble as usual.  I have a hard time believing Pierre will ever be
> a committer or core contributor to this project so long as he continues to
> spectacularly fail at working well with others (this is just my opinion,
> I'm only one voice of many in the community).  While I believe he is a
> destructive force in the community, there is nothing I can do about that,
> everyone is pretty much free to do as they please.  It's up to each and
> every one of you to decide what he brings to the table and interact with
> him accordingly.
>
> People talk about PMC "hidden agendas" and other conspiracy theories but
> often the reality is that it can be difficult to find motivation to work on
> a project that is constantly critical of the work you do.  When I joined
> this project there was very little infighting and contributing was a
> rewarding experience that earned you respect and praise from your peers.
>  It's a warm fuzzy feeling that keeps you active at nights and on weekends
> working on something you're passionate about.  For me, that passion is fast
> disappearing because of people like Pierre (he is certainly not the first
> but he is particularly vocal).  It feels like I'm regularly reading
> critical emails from various community members, either of the way the
> project is run or the way the project is progressing.  What I very rarely
> see is any action behind the talk; people suggest major changes and then
> carry on with their day.  No one actually gets anything done.  I'm sure
> some of you would replace the entire PMC given half the chance and that may
> seem like some great achievement, but eventually...  you're going to have
> to actually do something tangible to keep the community happy and achieve
> the goals you speak of.  If you're not doing anything tangible now, then
> you're as much a part of the problem as anyone else, take pause before you
> throw those stones.  You're being critical of those who have stayed when
> others have come and gone, those who have contributed more unpaid hours
> than most.
>
> How many of you can claim that you do the work in project that would match
> what you'd like to see from a committer or PMC member?  There is absolutely
> nothing stopping you from making that type of contribution right now, so
> what is the issue?
>
> For those of you who have an opinion but aren't actually doing anything
> tangible (commit reviews, patch reviews, ticket research, contributing
> designs and documentation), the brighter future of OFBiz starts with you.
>  Be the change that you want to see, go and do something productive for the
> project instead of complaining about what others are not doing.  Just to be
> clear, contributing to general discussions isn't much of a contribution,
> it's extremely rare that they result in anything positive actually
> happening.
>
> Regards
> Scott
>
>
> On 7/03/2014, at 9:00 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
> > functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.
> >
> > Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
> > would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great
> opportunity
> > to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
> > communications via mailing lists.
> >
> > I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
> > tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
> > teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
> > have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find
> below a
> > small overview of starting times in different timezones:
> >
> > LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
> > Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
> > - California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> > 06:30:00PDT<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html
> >UTC-7
> > hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179>
> (U.S.A.
> > - New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> > 09:30:00EDT<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html
> >UTC-4
> > hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136>
> (United
> > Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> > 13:30:00GMT<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
> > UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
> > (Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> > 14:30:00CET<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html
> >UTC+1
> > hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
> > (Russia)Thursday,
> > 13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html
> >UTC+4
> > hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438>
> (India
> > - Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> > 19:00:00IST<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html
> >UTC+5:30
> > hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
> > (Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> > 20:30:00ICT<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html
> >UTC+7
> > hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22>
> (New
> > Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
> > 02:30:00NZDT<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html
> >UTC+13
> > hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
> > Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can
> always
> > more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com
> >
> > *Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: [hidden email]
> > <[hidden email]>*
> >
> > *Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
> > *Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
> > *Duration: * 2 hr.
> >
> > *Notes: *
> >
> > *Free Conference Call*
> > Conference Dial-in Number: [phone] (Number in the
> Netherlands)
> > Participant Access Code: 779895#
> >
> >
> >
> > <
> http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070
> >
> >
> > When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by
> the
> > # key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and
> have
> > access to the touch tone commands listed below.
> >
> >
> > Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
> > instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
> >
> >
> > I hope to see you there.
> >
> > With regards
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
>

[Scott Gray-2]

No I would say it's a perfectly appropriate venue given the context of the discussion.

Regards
Scott

On 14/03/2014, at 3:35 AM, Mike wrote:

>> I believe he is a destructive force in the community
>
> This is an inappropriate venue for personal attacks.
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 11:52 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>>
>> I won't be attending simply because it is organized by Pierre (and because
>> the genesis of this meeting seems to have come from a very negative
>> perspective). Those of you who are new to the community or who he is polite
>> to may not be aware of how rude Pierre can be.  While he does do some good
>> work from time to time I believe his presence in the community causes more
>> harm than good.  He has almost continuously attacked or worked against the
>> PMC for the last year or two and I simply have no interest in hearing
>> anything he has to say any longer.  Almost no one seems to remember that he
>> told the ASF he would chair an OFBiz presence at an ApacheCon a year or so
>> ago, it was advertised, calls for papers/talks were made and submitted and
>> then not long before the conference... he disappeared with no explanation
>> to anyone.  PMC members were forced to attend the conference (that he
>> organized without consulting the PMC at all) and chair in his place on
>> short notice to maintain the credibility of the project.  As far as I know
>> he has never apologized to or thanked those who took his place and never
>> offered an explanation, he simply reappeared 6 months later and carried on
>> causing trouble as usual.  I have a hard time believing Pierre will ever be
>> a committer or core contributor to this project so long as he continues to
>> spectacularly fail at working well with others (this is just my opinion,
>> I'm only one voice of many in the community).  While I believe he is a
>> destructive force in the community, there is nothing I can do about that,
>> everyone is pretty much free to do as they please.  It's up to each and
>> every one of you to decide what he brings to the table and interact with
>> him accordingly.
>>
>> People talk about PMC "hidden agendas" and other conspiracy theories but
>> often the reality is that it can be difficult to find motivation to work on
>> a project that is constantly critical of the work you do.  When I joined
>> this project there was very little infighting and contributing was a
>> rewarding experience that earned you respect and praise from your peers.
>> It's a warm fuzzy feeling that keeps you active at nights and on weekends
>> working on something you're passionate about.  For me, that passion is fast
>> disappearing because of people like Pierre (he is certainly not the first
>> but he is particularly vocal).  It feels like I'm regularly reading
>> critical emails from various community members, either of the way the
>> project is run or the way the project is progressing.  What I very rarely
>> see is any action behind the talk; people suggest major changes and then
>> carry on with their day.  No one actually gets anything done.  I'm sure
>> some of you would replace the entire PMC given half the chance and that may
>> seem like some great achievement, but eventually...  you're going to have
>> to actually do something tangible to keep the community happy and achieve
>> the goals you speak of.  If you're not doing anything tangible now, then
>> you're as much a part of the problem as anyone else, take pause before you
>> throw those stones.  You're being critical of those who have stayed when
>> others have come and gone, those who have contributed more unpaid hours
>> than most.
>>
>> How many of you can claim that you do the work in project that would match
>> what you'd like to see from a committer or PMC member?  There is absolutely
>> nothing stopping you from making that type of contribution right now, so
>> what is the issue?
>>
>> For those of you who have an opinion but aren't actually doing anything
>> tangible (commit reviews, patch reviews, ticket research, contributing
>> designs and documentation), the brighter future of OFBiz starts with you.
>> Be the change that you want to see, go and do something productive for the
>> project instead of complaining about what others are not doing.  Just to be
>> clear, contributing to general discussions isn't much of a contribution,
>> it's extremely rare that they result in anything positive actually
>> happening.
>>
>> Regards
>> Scott
>>
>>
>> On 7/03/2014, at 9:00 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
>>> functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.
>>>
>>> Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
>>> would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great
>> opportunity
>>> to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
>>> communications via mailing lists.
>>>
>>> I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
>>> tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
>>> teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
>>> have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find
>> below a
>>> small overview of starting times in different timezones:
>>>
>>> LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
>>> Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
>>> - California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>>> 06:30:00PDT<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html
>>> UTC-7
>>> hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179>
>> (U.S.A.
>>> - New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>>> 09:30:00EDT<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html
>>> UTC-4
>>> hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136>
>> (United
>>> Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>>> 13:30:00GMT<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
>>> UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
>>> (Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>>> 14:30:00CET<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html
>>> UTC+1
>>> hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
>>> (Russia)Thursday,
>>> 13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html
>>> UTC+4
>>> hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438>
>> (India
>>> - Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>>> 19:00:00IST<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html
>>> UTC+5:30
>>> hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
>>> (Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>>> 20:30:00ICT<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html
>>> UTC+7
>>> hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22>
>> (New
>>> Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
>>> 02:30:00NZDT<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html
>>> UTC+13
>>> hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
>>> Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can
>> always
>>> more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com
>>>
>>> *Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: [hidden email]
>>> <[hidden email]>*
>>>
>>> *Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
>>> *Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
>>> *Duration: * 2 hr.
>>>
>>> *Notes: *
>>>
>>> *Free Conference Call*
>>> Conference Dial-in Number: [phone] (Number in the
>> Netherlands)
>>> Participant Access Code: 779895#
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <
>> http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070
>>>
>>>
>>> When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by
>> the
>>> # key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and
>> have
>>> access to the touch tone commands listed below.
>>>
>>>
>>> Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
>>> instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope to see you there.
>>>
>>> With regards
>>>
>>> Pierre Smits
>>>
>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>
>>
>>

[David E. Jones-2]

Thank you Scott. This is an inspiring reminder of how things actually work in the ASF. Apache OFBiz is not managed top-down, it is managed bottom-up based on actual effort and merit. Discussions really only matter if they lead up to an effort that results in actual code/doc/etc changes.

Pierre's message to the Board is a great example of misunderstanding this guiding principle, so I responded in more detail in that thread, but just wanted to throw in my +1 for what you wrote here.

-David


On Mar 12, 2014, at 11:52 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I won't be attending simply because it is organized by Pierre (and because the genesis of this meeting seems to have come from a very negative perspective). Those of you who are new to the community or who he is polite to may not be aware of how rude Pierre can be.  While he does do some good work from time to time I believe his presence in the community causes more harm than good.  He has almost continuously attacked or worked against the PMC for the last year or two and I simply have no interest in hearing anything he has to say any longer.  Almost no one seems to remember that he told the ASF he would chair an OFBiz presence at an ApacheCon a year or so ago, it was advertised, calls for papers/talks were made and submitted and then not long before the conference... he disappeared with no explanation to anyone.  PMC members were forced to attend the conference (that he organized without consulting the PMC at all) and chair in his place on short notice to maintain the credibility of the project.  As far as I know he has never apologized to or thanked those who took his place and never offered an explanation, he simply reappeared 6 months later and carried on causing trouble as usual.  I have a hard time believing Pierre will ever be a committer or core contributor to this project so long as he continues to spectacularly fail at working well with others (this is just my opinion, I'm only one voice of many in the community).  While I believe he is a destructive force in the community, there is nothing I can do about that, everyone is pretty much free to do as they please.  It's up to each and every one of you to decide what he brings to the table and interact with him accordingly.
>
> People talk about PMC "hidden agendas" and other conspiracy theories but often the reality is that it can be difficult to find motivation to work on a project that is constantly critical of the work you do.  When I joined this project there was very little infighting and contributing was a rewarding experience that earned you respect and praise from your peers.  It's a warm fuzzy feeling that keeps you active at nights and on weekends working on something you're passionate about.  For me, that passion is fast disappearing because of people like Pierre (he is certainly not the first but he is particularly vocal).  It feels like I'm regularly reading critical emails from various community members, either of the way the project is run or the way the project is progressing.  What I very rarely see is any action behind the talk; people suggest major changes and then carry on with their day.  No one actually gets anything done.  I'm sure some of you would replace the entire PMC given half the chance and that may seem like some great achievement, but eventually...  you're going to have to actually do something tangible to keep the community happy and achieve the goals you speak of.  If you're not doing anything tangible now, then you're as much a part of the problem as anyone else, take pause before you throw those stones.  You're being critical of those who have stayed when others have come and gone, those who have contributed more unpaid hours than most.
>
> How many of you can claim that you do the work in project that would match what you'd like to see from a committer or PMC member?  There is absolutely nothing stopping you from making that type of contribution right now, so what is the issue?
>
> For those of you who have an opinion but aren't actually doing anything tangible (commit reviews, patch reviews, ticket research, contributing designs and documentation), the brighter future of OFBiz starts with you.  Be the change that you want to see, go and do something productive for the project instead of complaining about what others are not doing.  Just to be clear, contributing to general discussions isn't much of a contribution, it's extremely rare that they result in anything positive actually happening.
>
> Regards
> Scott
>
>
> On 7/03/2014, at 9:00 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
>> functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.
>>
>> Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
>> would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great opportunity
>> to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
>> communications via mailing lists.
>>
>> I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
>> tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
>> teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
>> have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find below a
>> small overview of starting times in different timezones:
>>
>> LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
>> Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
>> - California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 06:30:00PDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html>UTC-7
>> hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179> (U.S.A.
>> - New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 09:30:00EDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html>UTC-4
>> hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136> (United
>> Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 13:30:00GMT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
>> UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
>> (Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 14:30:00CET<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html>UTC+1
>> hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
>> (Russia)Thursday,
>> 13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html>UTC+4
>> hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438> (India
>> - Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 19:00:00IST<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html>UTC+5:30
>> hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
>> (Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 20:30:00ICT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html>UTC+7
>> hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22> (New
>> Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
>> 02:30:00NZDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html>UTC+13
>> hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
>> Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can always
>> more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com
>>
>> *Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: [hidden email]
>> <[hidden email]>*
>>
>> *Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
>> *Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
>> *Duration: * 2 hr.
>>
>> *Notes: *
>>
>> *Free Conference Call*
>> Conference Dial-in Number: [phone] (Number in the Netherlands)
>> Participant Access Code: 779895#
>>
>>
>>
>> <http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070>
>>
>> When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by the
>> # key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and have
>> access to the touch tone commands listed below.
>>
>>
>> Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
>> instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
>>
>>
>> I hope to see you there.
>>
>> With regards
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>