What does "OOTB front-end accessibility" mean to you?

[David E Jones-2]

On Jan 4, 2007, at 3:42 AM, Andrew Ballantine wrote:

> I think what David is saying is the OFBiz open source project can only
> support and develop the framework in the direction that the major
> contributors wish to go. And I fully understand that.

...

> Some of you have commented that you would not like to see a fork  
> and I most
> definitely agree. There is no technical requirement for a fork. What I
> envisage is a sub-project that works on the usability,  
> presentation, sample
> data, OOTB functionality and installability issues that we have been
> discussing. The under-lying framework would be OFBiz. If different  
> vertical
> markets require different procedures within the framework, then I  
> would
> suggest that conditional code in the framework be used to handle  
> different
> "Flavours" of use. The advantage of this is that anyone modifying the
> Framework code can see what effect their changes might have on a  
> different
> flavour of the framework.
>
> Some obvious flavours might be:
> USA accounting and taxation
> EU accounting and VAT with various country flavours
> Manufacturing
> Direct Sales
> Retail shop
> eCommerce
> ...
> These flavours would be set at install time in the configuration  
> files, but
> interpreted at run time.

Much of this functionality, as you've noted, is available out of the  
box. To get it running how you need or want takes a bit of effort  
because the options are rather granular.

A lot these OOTB flavours, or "industry specific configurations"  
could certainly be part of OFBiz. The best mechanism for this is  
probably to create flavour-specific data file that would sit on top  
of the basic seed data files. The one to use can be selected when you  
are setting up your database, and once OFBiz is running you could  
have a pre-configured company, sample products, and so on waiting for  
your personalization, but specific to your industry as opposed to  
bering very generic like the current demo data is.

-David

[Jacques Le Roux]

I will just add that one part is always missing but with the good will around we will certainly fill the gap this year. I mean of
course

> > EU accounting and VAT with various country flavours

VAT is not only European, Japan use it, Australia Canadan and New Zealand also (a flavour names GST), and I'm sure I miss a lot...

There are alrerady some efforts arround this topic. Nable is too "large" for such a search (or you may have a look at
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-366). But a person interested may find some Jira issues, try "vat" in Jira search.

Jacques



----- Original Message -----
From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:03 PM
Subject: Re: What does "OOTB front-end accessibility" mean to you?

>
> On Jan 4, 2007, at 3:42 AM, Andrew Ballantine wrote:
>
> > I think what David is saying is the OFBiz open source project can only
> > support and develop the framework in the direction that the major
> > contributors wish to go. And I fully understand that.
>
> ...
> > Some of you have commented that you would not like to see a fork
> > and I most
> > definitely agree. There is no technical requirement for a fork. What I
> > envisage is a sub-project that works on the usability,
> > presentation, sample
> > data, OOTB functionality and installability issues that we have been
> > discussing. The under-lying framework would be OFBiz. If different
> > vertical
> > markets require different procedures within the framework, then I
> > would
> > suggest that conditional code in the framework be used to handle
> > different
> > "Flavours" of use. The advantage of this is that anyone modifying the
> > Framework code can see what effect their changes might have on a
> > different
> > flavour of the framework.
> >
> > Some obvious flavours might be:
> > USA accounting and taxation
> > EU accounting and VAT with various country flavours
> > Manufacturing
> > Direct Sales
> > Retail shop
> > eCommerce
> > ...
> > These flavours would be set at install time in the configuration
> > files, but
> > interpreted at run time.
>
> Much of this functionality, as you've noted, is available out of the
> box. To get it running how you need or want takes a bit of effort
> because the options are rather granular.
>
> A lot these OOTB flavours, or "industry specific configurations"
> could certainly be part of OFBiz. The best mechanism for this is
> probably to create flavour-specific data file that would sit on top
> of the basic seed data files. The one to use can be selected when you
> are setting up your database, and once OFBiz is running you could
> have a pre-configured company, sample products, and so on waiting for
> your personalization, but specific to your industry as opposed to
> bering very generic like the current demo data is.
>
> -David

[Ian McNulty]

David,

Sorry about that. It was meant as a joke. But I probably should have
flagged that up with a smiley.

All the same. Your point is a good one. I'd tend to agree.

Ian


David E Jones wrote:

>
> Hmmm... would we really _want_ that? Sometimes such folks are not
> terribly friendly and while something good could come of their
> increased awareness of our little group, who's to say their real
> purpose is not to suppress certain forms of disruptive technology?
>
> -David
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2007, at 12:12 PM, Ian McNulty wrote:
>
>> David,
>>
>> What chance do you reckon of OFBiz achieving DTO Certification?
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_Technologies_Office
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>
>> David Welton wrote:
>>>> > The reality is that running a big company that guarantees super fast
>>>> > support and accepts a big degree of liability is that it costs a
>>>> lot of
>>>> > money to do it.
>>>>
>>>> I guess it does. Which would beg the question: How could any
>>>> application
>>>> that did not set out to at least match that level of support and
>>>> liability in some way or another ever be considered credible
>>>> competition?
>>>
>>> The book "The Innovator's Dilemma" is a great read.  The main point is
>>> summarized here:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_technology
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> mcnultyMEDIA
>> 60 Birkdale Gardens
>> Durham
>> DH1 2UL
>>
>> t: [phone]
>> e: [hidden email]
>> w: www.mcnultymedia.co.uk
>> ==============================================================================================
>>
>> This communication is for the exclusive use of the intended
>> recipient(s) named above and is confidential. Any form of
>> distribution, copying, discussion or use of this communication, its
>> contents, or any information contained herein without prior consent
>> is strictly prohibited. If you receive this communication in error,
>> please notify the sender by email or by telephone on [phone]
>>
>> This email has been checked for viruses, however, we cannot accept
>> any liability sustained as a result of software viruses and would
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>>
>
>
>

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[Ian McNulty]

David,

Looks like you had another late one last night. All the more reason why
I appreciate the time you've taken getting me on track.

I don't want to continue clogging up essential engineering channels with
any more marketing noise. But I would like to reflect for a moment on
what I have learned so far.

I guess my usability problem boils down to not having got even halfway
through reading the label before the lid popped off the tin. Leaving me
standing in the shop calling for help, not sure which way to run.

The biggest client I've had so far - and the only one with the need for
something like OFBiz - falls off the bottom of David's 10-100 million
USD per year sweet spot scale.

'Had,' because in the short few days I've been engaged in this
discussion, they've made the decision to dump my osCommerce installation
which has worked so spectacularly well for them for the best 2 years and
replace it with the integrated Microsoft equivalent.

My specific problem has never had anything to do with installation. I
got OFBiz working easily enough on both Linux and Windows. I can easily
live without an auto install.

Nor would industry specific configurations have made much difference.
I'd only need to get into that after I'd won the job.

Base data and a setup wizard would be nice - no more need for the
installation manuals - but would not be a significant deal maker or
breaker for me.

The big problem is that I can't give clients any kind of demo because it
doesn't do VAT. How fundamental is that? What do I do? Explain I'm
assured that the good will is there to get it done within the year? Or
that an investment of a couple of hundred thousand USD could probably
get it done now?

Add what appears to be the absence of any kind of mechanism for changing
State dropdown when you change country - most often resulting in the
addition of US state names to non-US addresses - and I do not have a
working model the average SME in the UK might easily understand.

With Microsoft and Sage offering an OOTB solution for just a few
thousand that promises to save tens of thousands a year in staffing
costs forever, it had to be a total no-brainer.

I can't say I'm sorry to have lost this particular client. But I am
sorry that, in my own little corner of the world at least, Open Source
has been trounced by such a large margin in what I was hoping might have
been one of its finest hours.

But, as with all of us, there has to be a limit on how much effort I can
put in to fighting the Open Source corner at my own expense.

Even so. OFBiz looks so neat I'm almost tempted to set about trying to
raise whatever resources it would take to put together a saleable OOTB,
lower-end UK solution. Saleable in terms of being a workable product at
an affordable price - at the end of a sustainable supply chain. OOTB in
terms of doing exactly what it says on the tin.

For me the granularity isn't so much a problem as a possible key to why
this could be a worthwhile thing to do.

I guess the first step along that road would be to put together some
kind of estimate of exactly how much a working UK model might cost.
Which is just one of the many things I am  least qualified to do.

Anybody interested in helping put some kind of realistic budget together
on that?

Best,

Ian.





David E Jones wrote:

>
> I should clear the air here and make it clear that large businesses
> are NOT and have not been the target for OFBiz. Some large businesses
> are using parts of OFBiz, even rather large parts, in places where
> they need significant customization and such, but not to run or track
> the core of their business. Being more specific, some big companies
> are using it for ecommerce, but not for ERP and CRM types of activities.
>
> The real sweet spot of the world that has funded the development of
> OFBiz is medium sized companies, usually ecommerce or another variety
> of retail organization that has an income or 10-100 million USD per
> year. That means a new system to them is at least a few hundred
> thousand dollars, which is about the minimum range of budget to be
> able to develop lots of cool stuff and make it free.
>
> There are certainly much smaller users using OFBiz, but they really
> can't contribute to it's development. The resources are just too
> scattered and small to effectively participate in any non-financial
> way, and their ability to contribute in a financial way is a bit like
> the grandmother you mentioned... very warm hearted and appreciative
> and who has a severe need for help, but really can't offer more than a
> gift of a few dollars here and there, adding up to no more than a
> couple/few hundred per month.
>
> On that scale you just can't build something like OFBiz, and so we
> haven't been able to target companies of that scale in OOTB
> functionality.
>
> Of course, as OFBiz matures the OOTB stuff is getting better and
> better and small companies can conceivably do more and more.
>
> -David
>
>
>

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mcnultyMEDIA
60 Birkdale Gardens
Durham
DH1 2UL

t: [phone]
e: [hidden email]
w: www.mcnultymedia.co.uk
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This communication is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s) named above and is confidential. Any form of distribution, copying, discussion or use of this communication, its contents, or any information contained herein without prior consent is strictly prohibited. If you receive this communication in error, please notify the sender by email or by telephone on [phone]

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==============================================================================================

[Jacques Le Roux]

As I tried to convince before this is not an UK problem but at least an European/Japanese/Autralian/Canadian/NewZealandese/...

There are already some work done, still a lot to do... I have gathered some informations. I will try to update and perhaps
coordinate these efforts next week.

Mmm... I begin to have a lot of things started... this scares me a bit...

Jacques

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian McNulty" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: What does "OOTB front-end accessibility" mean to you?

> David,
>
> Looks like you had another late one last night. All the more reason why
> I appreciate the time you've taken getting me on track.
>
> I don't want to continue clogging up essential engineering channels with
> any more marketing noise. But I would like to reflect for a moment on
> what I have learned so far.
>
> I guess my usability problem boils down to not having got even halfway
> through reading the label before the lid popped off the tin. Leaving me
> standing in the shop calling for help, not sure which way to run.
>
> The biggest client I've had so far - and the only one with the need for
> something like OFBiz - falls off the bottom of David's 10-100 million
> USD per year sweet spot scale.
>
> 'Had,' because in the short few days I've been engaged in this
> discussion, they've made the decision to dump my osCommerce installation
> which has worked so spectacularly well for them for the best 2 years and
> replace it with the integrated Microsoft equivalent.
>
> My specific problem has never had anything to do with installation. I
> got OFBiz working easily enough on both Linux and Windows. I can easily
> live without an auto install.
>
> Nor would industry specific configurations have made much difference.
> I'd only need to get into that after I'd won the job.
>
> Base data and a setup wizard would be nice - no more need for the
> installation manuals - but would not be a significant deal maker or
> breaker for me.
>
> The big problem is that I can't give clients any kind of demo because it
> doesn't do VAT. How fundamental is that? What do I do? Explain I'm
> assured that the good will is there to get it done within the year? Or
> that an investment of a couple of hundred thousand USD could probably
> get it done now?
>
> Add what appears to be the absence of any kind of mechanism for changing
> State dropdown when you change country - most often resulting in the
> addition of US state names to non-US addresses - and I do not have a
> working model the average SME in the UK might easily understand.
>
> With Microsoft and Sage offering an OOTB solution for just a few
> thousand that promises to save tens of thousands a year in staffing
> costs forever, it had to be a total no-brainer.
>
> I can't say I'm sorry to have lost this particular client. But I am
> sorry that, in my own little corner of the world at least, Open Source
> has been trounced by such a large margin in what I was hoping might have
> been one of its finest hours.
>
> But, as with all of us, there has to be a limit on how much effort I can
> put in to fighting the Open Source corner at my own expense.
>
> Even so. OFBiz looks so neat I'm almost tempted to set about trying to
> raise whatever resources it would take to put together a saleable OOTB,
> lower-end UK solution. Saleable in terms of being a workable product at
> an affordable price - at the end of a sustainable supply chain. OOTB in
> terms of doing exactly what it says on the tin.
>
> For me the granularity isn't so much a problem as a possible key to why
> this could be a worthwhile thing to do.
>
> I guess the first step along that road would be to put together some
> kind of estimate of exactly how much a working UK model might cost.
> Which is just one of the many things I am  least qualified to do.
>
> Anybody interested in helping put some kind of realistic budget together
> on that?
>
> Best,
>
> Ian.
>
>
>
>
>
> David E Jones wrote:
> >
> > I should clear the air here and make it clear that large businesses
> > are NOT and have not been the target for OFBiz. Some large businesses
> > are using parts of OFBiz, even rather large parts, in places where
> > they need significant customization and such, but not to run or track
> > the core of their business. Being more specific, some big companies
> > are using it for ecommerce, but not for ERP and CRM types of activities.
> >
> > The real sweet spot of the world that has funded the development of
> > OFBiz is medium sized companies, usually ecommerce or another variety
> > of retail organization that has an income or 10-100 million USD per
> > year. That means a new system to them is at least a few hundred
> > thousand dollars, which is about the minimum range of budget to be
> > able to develop lots of cool stuff and make it free.
> >
> > There are certainly much smaller users using OFBiz, but they really
> > can't contribute to it's development. The resources are just too
> > scattered and small to effectively participate in any non-financial
> > way, and their ability to contribute in a financial way is a bit like
> > the grandmother you mentioned... very warm hearted and appreciative
> > and who has a severe need for help, but really can't offer more than a
> > gift of a few dollars here and there, adding up to no more than a
> > couple/few hundred per month.
> >
> > On that scale you just can't build something like OFBiz, and so we
> > haven't been able to target companies of that scale in OOTB
> > functionality.
> >
> > Of course, as OFBiz matures the OOTB stuff is getting better and
> > better and small companies can conceivably do more and more.
> >
> > -David
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> mcnultyMEDIA
> 60 Birkdale Gardens
> Durham
> DH1 2UL
>
> t: [phone]
> e: [hidden email]
> w: www.mcnultymedia.co.uk
> ==============================================================================================
> This communication is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s) named above and is confidential. Any form of

distribution, copying, discussion or use of this communication, its contents, or any information contained herein without prior
consent is strictly prohibited. If you receive this communication in error, please notify the sender by email or by telephone on +44
(0)191 384 4736
>
> This email has been checked for viruses, however, we cannot accept any liability sustained as a result of software viruses and
would recommend that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.
> ==============================================================================================

[Andrew Sykes]

Ian,

VAT is supported, I think Jacopo put together a page on that somewhere,
hopefully he'll pick this up and point you in the direction.

Over to you Jacopo...

- Andrew

On Fri, 2007-01-05 at 18:46 +0000, Ian McNulty wrote:

> David,
>
> Looks like you had another late one last night. All the more reason why
> I appreciate the time you've taken getting me on track.
>
> I don't want to continue clogging up essential engineering channels with
> any more marketing noise. But I would like to reflect for a moment on
> what I have learned so far.
>
> I guess my usability problem boils down to not having got even halfway
> through reading the label before the lid popped off the tin. Leaving me
> standing in the shop calling for help, not sure which way to run.
>
> The biggest client I've had so far - and the only one with the need for
> something like OFBiz - falls off the bottom of David's 10-100 million
> USD per year sweet spot scale.
>
> 'Had,' because in the short few days I've been engaged in this
> discussion, they've made the decision to dump my osCommerce installation
> which has worked so spectacularly well for them for the best 2 years and
> replace it with the integrated Microsoft equivalent.
>
> My specific problem has never had anything to do with installation. I
> got OFBiz working easily enough on both Linux and Windows. I can easily
> live without an auto install.
>
> Nor would industry specific configurations have made much difference.
> I'd only need to get into that after I'd won the job.
>
> Base data and a setup wizard would be nice - no more need for the
> installation manuals - but would not be a significant deal maker or
> breaker for me.
>
> The big problem is that I can't give clients any kind of demo because it
> doesn't do VAT. How fundamental is that? What do I do? Explain I'm
> assured that the good will is there to get it done within the year? Or
> that an investment of a couple of hundred thousand USD could probably
> get it done now?
>
> Add what appears to be the absence of any kind of mechanism for changing
> State dropdown when you change country - most often resulting in the
> addition of US state names to non-US addresses - and I do not have a
> working model the average SME in the UK might easily understand.
>
> With Microsoft and Sage offering an OOTB solution for just a few
> thousand that promises to save tens of thousands a year in staffing
> costs forever, it had to be a total no-brainer.
>
> I can't say I'm sorry to have lost this particular client. But I am
> sorry that, in my own little corner of the world at least, Open Source
> has been trounced by such a large margin in what I was hoping might have
> been one of its finest hours.
>
> But, as with all of us, there has to be a limit on how much effort I can
> put in to fighting the Open Source corner at my own expense.
>
> Even so. OFBiz looks so neat I'm almost tempted to set about trying to
> raise whatever resources it would take to put together a saleable OOTB,
> lower-end UK solution. Saleable in terms of being a workable product at
> an affordable price - at the end of a sustainable supply chain. OOTB in
> terms of doing exactly what it says on the tin.
>
> For me the granularity isn't so much a problem as a possible key to why
> this could be a worthwhile thing to do.
>
> I guess the first step along that road would be to put together some
> kind of estimate of exactly how much a working UK model might cost.
> Which is just one of the many things I am  least qualified to do.
>
> Anybody interested in helping put some kind of realistic budget together
> on that?
>
> Best,
>
> Ian.
>
>
>
>
>
> David E Jones wrote:
> >
> > I should clear the air here and make it clear that large businesses
> > are NOT and have not been the target for OFBiz. Some large businesses
> > are using parts of OFBiz, even rather large parts, in places where
> > they need significant customization and such, but not to run or track
> > the core of their business. Being more specific, some big companies
> > are using it for ecommerce, but not for ERP and CRM types of activities.
> >
> > The real sweet spot of the world that has funded the development of
> > OFBiz is medium sized companies, usually ecommerce or another variety
> > of retail organization that has an income or 10-100 million USD per
> > year. That means a new system to them is at least a few hundred
> > thousand dollars, which is about the minimum range of budget to be
> > able to develop lots of cool stuff and make it free.
> >
> > There are certainly much smaller users using OFBiz, but they really
> > can't contribute to it's development. The resources are just too
> > scattered and small to effectively participate in any non-financial
> > way, and their ability to contribute in a financial way is a bit like
> > the grandmother you mentioned... very warm hearted and appreciative
> > and who has a severe need for help, but really can't offer more than a
> > gift of a few dollars here and there, adding up to no more than a
> > couple/few hundred per month.
> >
> > On that scale you just can't build something like OFBiz, and so we
> > haven't been able to target companies of that scale in OOTB
> > functionality.
> >
> > Of course, as OFBiz matures the OOTB stuff is getting better and
> > better and small companies can conceivably do more and more.
> >
> > -David
> >
> >
> >
>

--
Kind Regards
Andrew Sykes <[hidden email]>
Sykes Development Ltd
http://www.sykesdevelopment.com

[David E Jones-2]

On Jan 5, 2007, at 11:46 AM, Ian McNulty wrote:

> The biggest client I've had so far - and the only one with the need  
> for something like OFBiz - falls off the bottom of David's 10-100  
> million USD per year sweet spot scale.

Okay, I'll try again to clarify. I guess my last message wasn't clear  
enough.

That is the revenue range for companies who have largely contributed  
to or sponsored contribution to the current functionality in OFBiz.  
These are the companies that have made OFBiz possible.

It is NOT, very much NOT, any sort of required range for a company to  
_USE_ OFBiz, or even contribute to it. In fact, there are many  
companies that probably do less than $100k per _year_ that are  
effectively using OFBiz.

Let me know if I've still failed to draw a distinction there...

-David

[David E Jones-2]

On Jan 5, 2007, at 11:46 AM, Ian McNulty wrote:

> The big problem is that I can't give clients any kind of demo  
> because it doesn't do VAT. How fundamental is that? What do I do?  
> Explain I'm assured that the good will is there to get it done  
> within the year? Or that an investment of a couple of hundred  
> thousand USD could probably get it done now?

Man, if you could get a couple hundred thousand USD to implement that  
I'd go for it! You'd probably be running around a 90-99% profit  
margin on that puppy! Partially because much of it is already  
implemented of course... and may even work OOTB with some  
configuration for any given VAT-requiring clients.

Right now we're in the position of implementing full custom  
ecommerce, ERP and CRM solutions for certain types and sizes of  
companies for this amount of money.

-David

[Alex D. Fleming-2]

Wow 63 replies for this topic...may be this topic will create a Century ;)

On 1/6/07, David E Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Jan 5, 2007, at 11:46 AM, Ian McNulty wrote:
>
> > The big problem is that I can't give clients any kind of demo
> > because it doesn't do VAT. How fundamental is that? What do I do?
> > Explain I'm assured that the good will is there to get it done
> > within the year? Or that an investment of a couple of hundred
> > thousand USD could probably get it done now?
>
> Man, if you could get a couple hundred thousand USD to implement that
> I'd go for it! You'd probably be running around a 90-99% profit
> margin on that puppy! Partially because much of it is already
> implemented of course... and may even work OOTB with some
> configuration for any given VAT-requiring clients.
>
> Right now we're in the position of implementing full custom
> ecommerce, ERP and CRM solutions for certain types and sizes of
> companies for this amount of money.
>
> -David
>
>
>
> --

Regards
Alex D. Fleming

[Jacques Le Roux]

Yes, I agree it's supported but grosses prices are not. Not easy to deal VAT without them (OK for B2B but less for B2C)  ...

Jacques

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Sykes" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: What does "OOTB front-end accessibility" mean to you?

> Ian,
>
> VAT is supported, I think Jacopo put together a page on that somewhere,
> hopefully he'll pick this up and point you in the direction.
>
> Over to you Jacopo...
>
> - Andrew
>
> On Fri, 2007-01-05 at 18:46 +0000, Ian McNulty wrote:
> > David,
> >
> > Looks like you had another late one last night. All the more reason why
> > I appreciate the time you've taken getting me on track.
> >
> > I don't want to continue clogging up essential engineering channels with
> > any more marketing noise. But I would like to reflect for a moment on
> > what I have learned so far.
> >
> > I guess my usability problem boils down to not having got even halfway
> > through reading the label before the lid popped off the tin. Leaving me
> > standing in the shop calling for help, not sure which way to run.
> >
> > The biggest client I've had so far - and the only one with the need for
> > something like OFBiz - falls off the bottom of David's 10-100 million
> > USD per year sweet spot scale.
> >
> > 'Had,' because in the short few days I've been engaged in this
> > discussion, they've made the decision to dump my osCommerce installation
> > which has worked so spectacularly well for them for the best 2 years and
> > replace it with the integrated Microsoft equivalent.
> >
> > My specific problem has never had anything to do with installation. I
> > got OFBiz working easily enough on both Linux and Windows. I can easily
> > live without an auto install.
> >
> > Nor would industry specific configurations have made much difference.
> > I'd only need to get into that after I'd won the job.
> >
> > Base data and a setup wizard would be nice - no more need for the
> > installation manuals - but would not be a significant deal maker or
> > breaker for me.
> >
> > The big problem is that I can't give clients any kind of demo because it
> > doesn't do VAT. How fundamental is that? What do I do? Explain I'm
> > assured that the good will is there to get it done within the year? Or
> > that an investment of a couple of hundred thousand USD could probably
> > get it done now?
> >
> > Add what appears to be the absence of any kind of mechanism for changing
> > State dropdown when you change country - most often resulting in the
> > addition of US state names to non-US addresses - and I do not have a
> > working model the average SME in the UK might easily understand.
> >
> > With Microsoft and Sage offering an OOTB solution for just a few
> > thousand that promises to save tens of thousands a year in staffing
> > costs forever, it had to be a total no-brainer.
> >
> > I can't say I'm sorry to have lost this particular client. But I am
> > sorry that, in my own little corner of the world at least, Open Source
> > has been trounced by such a large margin in what I was hoping might have
> > been one of its finest hours.
> >
> > But, as with all of us, there has to be a limit on how much effort I can
> > put in to fighting the Open Source corner at my own expense.
> >
> > Even so. OFBiz looks so neat I'm almost tempted to set about trying to
> > raise whatever resources it would take to put together a saleable OOTB,
> > lower-end UK solution. Saleable in terms of being a workable product at
> > an affordable price - at the end of a sustainable supply chain. OOTB in
> > terms of doing exactly what it says on the tin.
> >
> > For me the granularity isn't so much a problem as a possible key to why
> > this could be a worthwhile thing to do.
> >
> > I guess the first step along that road would be to put together some
> > kind of estimate of exactly how much a working UK model might cost.
> > Which is just one of the many things I am  least qualified to do.
> >
> > Anybody interested in helping put some kind of realistic budget together
> > on that?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Ian.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > David E Jones wrote:
> > >
> > > I should clear the air here and make it clear that large businesses
> > > are NOT and have not been the target for OFBiz. Some large businesses
> > > are using parts of OFBiz, even rather large parts, in places where
> > > they need significant customization and such, but not to run or track
> > > the core of their business. Being more specific, some big companies
> > > are using it for ecommerce, but not for ERP and CRM types of activities.
> > >
> > > The real sweet spot of the world that has funded the development of
> > > OFBiz is medium sized companies, usually ecommerce or another variety
> > > of retail organization that has an income or 10-100 million USD per
> > > year. That means a new system to them is at least a few hundred
> > > thousand dollars, which is about the minimum range of budget to be
> > > able to develop lots of cool stuff and make it free.
> > >
> > > There are certainly much smaller users using OFBiz, but they really
> > > can't contribute to it's development. The resources are just too
> > > scattered and small to effectively participate in any non-financial
> > > way, and their ability to contribute in a financial way is a bit like
> > > the grandmother you mentioned... very warm hearted and appreciative
> > > and who has a severe need for help, but really can't offer more than a
> > > gift of a few dollars here and there, adding up to no more than a
> > > couple/few hundred per month.
> > >
> > > On that scale you just can't build something like OFBiz, and so we
> > > haven't been able to target companies of that scale in OOTB
> > > functionality.
> > >
> > > Of course, as OFBiz matures the OOTB stuff is getting better and
> > > better and small companies can conceivably do more and more.
> > >
> > > -David
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> --
> Kind Regards
> Andrew Sykes <[hidden email]>
> Sykes Development Ltd
> http://www.sykesdevelopment.com

[Ian McNulty]

David,

>
> Man, if you could get a couple hundred thousand USD to implement that
> I'd go for it!

Too true. So would I. But what I was trying to say is that I don't know
of any clients who would ever contemplate paying anything like that.

> You'd probably be running around a 90-99% profit margin on that puppy!

So costs of sale of between 1 and 10% of 200K would put the cost of a UK
installation at between 2K and 20K?

Costs at the bottom would obviously be easier to sell on than the top.
But that kind of ball park might be playable.

> Partially because much of it is already implemented of course... and
> may even work OOTB with some configuration for any given VAT-requiring
> clients.
>

Ah. Now then. Here we go again. Does it do VAT or not? As Jacques has
pointed out several times, this is a pretty big deal in a lot more
places than just the US. And he doesn't seem so sure it's a worker.

So what does it say on the tin?

Is the VAT situation clearly stated, or do I have to open the box, wade
through the small print and then contact the manufacturer before I can
find out?

This strikes me as the most important bit of the user interface that
needs sorting.

Not the VAT, or States or auto install or anything else. It's what it
says on the label. The first bit of the interface the user has to deal
with. A bit of polish at that end can go an awful long way.

Am I the only one that thinks this is might be worth sorting out?

> Right now we're in the position of implementing full custom ecommerce,
> ERP and CRM solutions for certain types and sizes of companies for
> this amount of money.
>

Good to hear David. Now I've got a better idea of the ballpark I can
start looking for potential players.

Many thanks again for all the help you've given on this.

Ian





David E Jones wrote:

>
> On Jan 5, 2007, at 11:46 AM, Ian McNulty wrote:
>
>> The big problem is that I can't give clients any kind of demo because
>> it doesn't do VAT. How fundamental is that? What do I do? Explain I'm
>> assured that the good will is there to get it done within the year?
>> Or that an investment of a couple of hundred thousand USD could
>> probably get it done now?
>
> Man, if you could get a couple hundred thousand USD to implement that
> I'd go for it! You'd probably be running around a 90-99% profit margin
> on that puppy! Partially because much of it is already implemented of
> course... and may even work OOTB with some configuration for any given
> VAT-requiring clients.
>
> Right now we're in the position of implementing full custom ecommerce,
> ERP and CRM solutions for certain types and sizes of companies for
> this amount of money.
>
> -David
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

The better way I found to follow VAT efforts is to simply do a quick search in Jira. For the moment there are 9 issues related to
this topic (ie having vat in subject or body, all in OFBiz you may forget to choose the project).
3 are already closed.

The main one is  https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-366 where I had related other issues.

For some time now I will to look at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-416 from  David Garrett but sorry David I did not
find
enough time yet.

Jacques

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jacques Le Roux" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: What does "OOTB front-end accessibility" mean to you?

> As I tried to convince before this is not an UK problem but at least an European/Japanese/Autralian/Canadian/NewZealandese/...
>
> There are already some work done, still a lot to do... I have gathered some informations. I will try to update and perhaps
> coordinate these efforts next week.
>
> Mmm... I begin to have a lot of things started... this scares me a bit...
>
> Jacques
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian McNulty" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 7:46 PM
> Subject: Re: What does "OOTB front-end accessibility" mean to you?
>
>
> > David,
> >
> > Looks like you had another late one last night. All the more reason why
> > I appreciate the time you've taken getting me on track.
> >
> > I don't want to continue clogging up essential engineering channels with
> > any more marketing noise. But I would like to reflect for a moment on
> > what I have learned so far.
> >
> > I guess my usability problem boils down to not having got even halfway
> > through reading the label before the lid popped off the tin. Leaving me
> > standing in the shop calling for help, not sure which way to run.
> >
> > The biggest client I've had so far - and the only one with the need for
> > something like OFBiz - falls off the bottom of David's 10-100 million
> > USD per year sweet spot scale.
> >
> > 'Had,' because in the short few days I've been engaged in this
> > discussion, they've made the decision to dump my osCommerce installation
> > which has worked so spectacularly well for them for the best 2 years and
> > replace it with the integrated Microsoft equivalent.
> >
> > My specific problem has never had anything to do with installation. I
> > got OFBiz working easily enough on both Linux and Windows. I can easily
> > live without an auto install.
> >
> > Nor would industry specific configurations have made much difference.
> > I'd only need to get into that after I'd won the job.
> >
> > Base data and a setup wizard would be nice - no more need for the
> > installation manuals - but would not be a significant deal maker or
> > breaker for me.
> >
> > The big problem is that I can't give clients any kind of demo because it
> > doesn't do VAT. How fundamental is that? What do I do? Explain I'm
> > assured that the good will is there to get it done within the year? Or
> > that an investment of a couple of hundred thousand USD could probably
> > get it done now?
> >
> > Add what appears to be the absence of any kind of mechanism for changing
> > State dropdown when you change country - most often resulting in the
> > addition of US state names to non-US addresses - and I do not have a
> > working model the average SME in the UK might easily understand.
> >
> > With Microsoft and Sage offering an OOTB solution for just a few
> > thousand that promises to save tens of thousands a year in staffing
> > costs forever, it had to be a total no-brainer.
> >
> > I can't say I'm sorry to have lost this particular client. But I am
> > sorry that, in my own little corner of the world at least, Open Source
> > has been trounced by such a large margin in what I was hoping might have
> > been one of its finest hours.
> >
> > But, as with all of us, there has to be a limit on how much effort I can
> > put in to fighting the Open Source corner at my own expense.
> >
> > Even so. OFBiz looks so neat I'm almost tempted to set about trying to
> > raise whatever resources it would take to put together a saleable OOTB,
> > lower-end UK solution. Saleable in terms of being a workable product at
> > an affordable price - at the end of a sustainable supply chain. OOTB in
> > terms of doing exactly what it says on the tin.
> >
> > For me the granularity isn't so much a problem as a possible key to why
> > this could be a worthwhile thing to do.
> >
> > I guess the first step along that road would be to put together some
> > kind of estimate of exactly how much a working UK model might cost.
> > Which is just one of the many things I am  least qualified to do.
> >
> > Anybody interested in helping put some kind of realistic budget together
> > on that?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Ian.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > David E Jones wrote:
> > >
> > > I should clear the air here and make it clear that large businesses
> > > are NOT and have not been the target for OFBiz. Some large businesses
> > > are using parts of OFBiz, even rather large parts, in places where
> > > they need significant customization and such, but not to run or track
> > > the core of their business. Being more specific, some big companies
> > > are using it for ecommerce, but not for ERP and CRM types of activities.
> > >
> > > The real sweet spot of the world that has funded the development of
> > > OFBiz is medium sized companies, usually ecommerce or another variety
> > > of retail organization that has an income or 10-100 million USD per
> > > year. That means a new system to them is at least a few hundred
> > > thousand dollars, which is about the minimum range of budget to be
> > > able to develop lots of cool stuff and make it free.
> > >
> > > There are certainly much smaller users using OFBiz, but they really
> > > can't contribute to it's development. The resources are just too
> > > scattered and small to effectively participate in any non-financial
> > > way, and their ability to contribute in a financial way is a bit like
> > > the grandmother you mentioned... very warm hearted and appreciative
> > > and who has a severe need for help, but really can't offer more than a
> > > gift of a few dollars here and there, adding up to no more than a
> > > couple/few hundred per month.
> > >
> > > On that scale you just can't build something like OFBiz, and so we
> > > haven't been able to target companies of that scale in OOTB
> > > functionality.
> > >
> > > Of course, as OFBiz matures the OOTB stuff is getting better and
> > > better and small companies can conceivably do more and more.
> > >
> > > -David
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > mcnultyMEDIA
> > 60 Birkdale Gardens
> > Durham
> > DH1 2UL
> >
> > t: [phone]
> > e: [hidden email]
> > w: www.mcnultymedia.co.uk
> > ==============================================================================================
> > This communication is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s) named above and is confidential. Any form of
> distribution, copying, discussion or use of this communication, its contents, or any information contained herein without prior
> consent is strictly prohibited. If you receive this communication in error, please notify the sender by email or by telephone on

+44
> (0)191 384 4736
> >
> > This email has been checked for viruses, however, we cannot accept any liability sustained as a result of software viruses and
> would recommend that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.
> > ==============================================================================================

[rajsaini]

> VAT is not only European, Japan use it, Australia Canadan and New Zealand also (a flavour names GST), and I'm sure I miss a lot...
>  

And now India also uses VAT.

Thanks,

Raj

> There are alrerady some efforts arround this topic. Nable is too "large" for such a search (or you may have a look at
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-366). But a person interested may find some Jira issues, try "vat" in Jira search.
>
> Jacques
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:03 PM
> Subject: Re: What does "OOTB front-end accessibility" mean to you?
>
>
>  
>> On Jan 4, 2007, at 3:42 AM, Andrew Ballantine wrote:
>>
>>    
>>> I think what David is saying is the OFBiz open source project can only
>>> support and develop the framework in the direction that the major
>>> contributors wish to go. And I fully understand that.
>>>      
>> ...
>>    
>>> Some of you have commented that you would not like to see a fork
>>> and I most
>>> definitely agree. There is no technical requirement for a fork. What I
>>> envisage is a sub-project that works on the usability,
>>> presentation, sample
>>> data, OOTB functionality and installability issues that we have been
>>> discussing. The under-lying framework would be OFBiz. If different
>>> vertical
>>> markets require different procedures within the framework, then I
>>> would
>>> suggest that conditional code in the framework be used to handle
>>> different
>>> "Flavours" of use. The advantage of this is that anyone modifying the
>>> Framework code can see what effect their changes might have on a
>>> different
>>> flavour of the framework.
>>>
>>> Some obvious flavours might be:
>>> USA accounting and taxation
>>> EU accounting and VAT with various country flavours
>>> Manufacturing
>>> Direct Sales
>>> Retail shop
>>> eCommerce
>>> ...
>>> These flavours would be set at install time in the configuration
>>> files, but
>>> interpreted at run time.
>>>      
>> Much of this functionality, as you've noted, is available out of the
>> box. To get it running how you need or want takes a bit of effort
>> because the options are rather granular.
>>
>> A lot these OOTB flavours, or "industry specific configurations"
>> could certainly be part of OFBiz. The best mechanism for this is
>> probably to create flavour-specific data file that would sit on top
>> of the basic seed data files. The one to use can be selected when you
>> are setting up your database, and once OFBiz is running you could
>> have a pre-configured company, sample products, and so on waiting for
>> your personalization, but specific to your industry as opposed to
>> bering very generic like the current demo data is.
>>
>> -David
>>    
>
>
>  

[Cameron Smith-6]

Also Mozambique, with a model very similar to British model (not surprising as it was the World Bank and IMF who "politely asked" that it be introduced).

cameron

----- Original Message ----
From: Raj Saini <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, 8 January, 2007 7:06:28 AM
Subject: Re: What does "OOTB front-end accessibility" mean to you?


> VAT is not only European, Japan use it, Australia Canadan and New Zealand also (a flavour names GST), and I'm sure I miss a lot...
>  

And now India also uses VAT.

Thanks,

Raj

> There are alrerady some efforts arround this topic. Nable is too "large" for such a search (or you may have a look at
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-366). But a person interested may find some Jira issues, try "vat" in Jira search.
>
> Jacques
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:03 PM
> Subject: Re: What does "OOTB front-end accessibility" mean to you?
>
>
>  
>> On Jan 4, 2007, at 3:42 AM, Andrew Ballantine wrote:
>>
>>    
>>> I think what David is saying is the OFBiz open source project can only
>>> support and develop the framework in the direction that the major
>>> contributors wish to go. And I fully understand that.
>>>      
>> ...
>>    
>>> Some of you have commented that you would not like to see a fork
>>> and I most
>>> definitely agree. There is no technical requirement for a fork. What I
>>> envisage is a sub-project that works on the usability,
>>> presentation, sample
>>> data, OOTB functionality and installability issues that we have been
>>> discussing. The under-lying framework would be OFBiz. If different
>>> vertical
>>> markets require different procedures within the framework, then I
>>> would
>>> suggest that conditional code in the framework be used to handle
>>> different
>>> "Flavours" of use. The advantage of this is that anyone modifying the
>>> Framework code can see what effect their changes might have on a
>>> different
>>> flavour of the framework.
>>>
>>> Some obvious flavours might be:
>>> USA accounting and taxation
>>> EU accounting and VAT with various country flavours
>>> Manufacturing
>>> Direct Sales
>>> Retail shop
>>> eCommerce
>>> ...
>>> These flavours would be set at install time in the configuration
>>> files, but
>>> interpreted at run time.
>>>      
>> Much of this functionality, as you've noted, is available out of the
>> box. To get it running how you need or want takes a bit of effort
>> because the options are rather granular.
>>
>> A lot these OOTB flavours, or "industry specific configurations"
>> could certainly be part of OFBiz. The best mechanism for this is
>> probably to create flavour-specific data file that would sit on top
>> of the basic seed data files. The one to use can be selected when you
>> are setting up your database, and once OFBiz is running you could
>> have a pre-configured company, sample products, and so on waiting for
>> your personalization, but specific to your industry as opposed to
>> bering very generic like the current demo data is.
>>
>> -David
>>    
>
>
>  

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