org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init() catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed: java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)

[David E Jones]

Skip wrote:
> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz applications,
> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to your
> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager type
> person the meaning of these terms:
> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is Capture,
> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
> etc. etc.

> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and they
> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would actually be
> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These are a few
> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back office
> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications OOTB, the
> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly jargon.
> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but critical
> when needed.
>
> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to use
> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using terms
> understood by the people using them.

Actually, given those names along with a context most people familiar with business processes and terms could at least come up with a pretty close guess as to what those means.

All of this is made up stuff, there is nothing natural for humans, so it depends 100% on prior experience. Most users of any system will need some sort of training or documentation to help them through what they need to do, especially the first few times.

That can certainly be reduced by user interfaces tailored to the needs of a certain role or task (which EXACTLY why OFBiz is licensed using something very friendly to derivative works), but even then generally not eliminated.

> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated lots of
> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and commercial.
> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am committed
> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.

That's a nice thing to say, I hope that for you, like many others before you, it will turn out to remain that way throughout your experience.

The real focus of most of the effort so far in the project, as many have noted, is to provide good tools and lower level artifacts that can be easily customized to more quickly get to the application you need, and obviously it is best suited to the staggeringly complex applications so many of us are asked frequently to put together.

Hopefully as the project grows we'll have more user interfaces tailored to a specific role or task. There are quite a few now, but that is an open world with nearly infinite possibilities...

> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing agents,
> the sales folks, and all the rest.

You've probably already noticed this, but just to make it clear for conversation sake: the specific roles and requirements for the client you are working with are probably similar to, but different in key ways, than what is needed for other industries and even other companies in the same industry. The intent of OFBiz is to make it applicable across a wide set of such, which is why the OOTB applications tend to include lots of stuff that ANY particular user (or better said: role or task) wouldn't need, but some other user would.

-David

[jonwimp]

Skip,

I agree with you, as will many other VARs who have taken up OFBiz.

I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms, everything OFBiz but above the framework.
After that, I'll be approaching the real world (not the OFBiz world) to tally the facts and
figures, and to get a good list of the discrepancy between "OFBiz world" and "real world". Such a
"mapping" between OFBiz and the real world will make it MUCH easier for me to talk to future clients!

As it is now, more than half of my projects required some work to gravitate OFBiz towards the real
world. In particular, accounting is a major void. Payment processing has some holes too.

 > That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people
 > to use Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the
 > UI using terms understood by the people using them.

Definitely. All of my projects required that. Changing the UI.

I'm not saying which ERP terminologies are de facto or "best practice". It's just a real world
observation.

Either OFBiz moves towards the real world, or vice versa. There are some clients who say they want
to follow best practices, and they want to try going with the "OFBiz way of doing things".

Whatever we do, I think it'll be fun to focus on channeling all we got into OFBiz and make it more
viable in the real world. Well, unless OFBiz overtakes the number one ERP system. :)

Jonathon

Skip wrote:

> Tim
>
> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.  Let me respond briefly.
>
> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB".
> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for testing.  I am
> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.
>
> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz applications,
> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to your
> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager type
> person the meaning of these terms:
> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is Capture,
> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
> etc. etc.
> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and they
> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would actually be
> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These are a few
> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back office
> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications OOTB, the
> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly jargon.
> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but critical
> when needed.
>
> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to use
> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using terms
> understood by the people using them.
>
> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated lots of
> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and commercial.
> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am committed
> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.
>
> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing agents,
> the sales folks, and all the rest.
>
> Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who contribute
> have done.
>
> Skip
>
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[hidden email]]
>   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
>   To: [hidden email]
>   Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>
>
>   Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB,
> but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their
> business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be able to
> get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of ramp up
> on the existing processes.
>
>
>   Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to their
> mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
> there.
>
>
>
>   Cheers,
>   Tim
>   --
>   Tim Ruppert
>   HotWax Media
>   http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>
>
>   o:801.649.6594
>   f:801.649.6595
>
>
>
>
>   On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:
>
>
>     Jacopo
>
>
>     Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
> Source
>     ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
> acronym
>     for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a great
>     ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree
>     wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning side. I
>     would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice users
> up to
>     speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).
>
>
>     As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes and
> making
>     it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
> considerable
>     customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
>     businesses.
>
>
>     It is though perfect for VARs like me.
>
>
>     My two $.
>
>
>     Skip
>
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[hidden email]]
>     Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
>     To: [hidden email]
>     Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>     catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>     java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>
>
>
>
>     Walter Vaughan wrote:
>       Len Parker wrote:
>
>
>         I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
>         "java -jar ofbiz.jar":
>
>
>       What does "java -version" say?
>       Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?
>
>
>       Regarding your boss...
>       If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you are
>       looking for.
>
>
>     OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system that
>     can be used out of the box.
>     Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
>     commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it to fit
>     their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
>     developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and widgets is
>     efficient and easy.
>     There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most
>     remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
>     this gap soon.
>
>
>     Jacopo
>
>
>       If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
>       dashboards, built in Business Intellegence tools, and you can deal
> with
>       GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
> This
>       is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
>       options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
> something
>       to show the pointy headed boss).
>
>
>       Welcome aboard!
>
>
>       --
>       Walter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date: 9/25/2007 8:02 AM

[SkipDever]

Jonathon

"I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms...".  I am happy to
help with this because I would rather not spend gobs of hand-holding time.
I expect to go live with my first customer in about 2 months and they will
have to live with a majority of the functionality in its current state.  A
"jargon dictionary" would be very helpful to them.

I have 20 years experience with these folks and have written two accounting
applications used by hundreds of users over that time, so I "think" I have a
fair understanding of the terminolgy in the industries I have served.  It is
my experience that GL, A/P and A/R are fairly generic.  Beyond that, the
lingo begins to diverge.

If you will give me a list of the modules you haven't done yet, maybe we can
split the load and feed the result back to the community.

Skip

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathon -- Improov [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:04 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)


Skip,

I agree with you, as will many other VARs who have taken up OFBiz.

I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms, everything OFBiz
but above the framework.
After that, I'll be approaching the real world (not the OFBiz world) to
tally the facts and
figures, and to get a good list of the discrepancy between "OFBiz world" and
"real world". Such a
"mapping" between OFBiz and the real world will make it MUCH easier for me
to talk to future clients!

As it is now, more than half of my projects required some work to gravitate
OFBiz towards the real
world. In particular, accounting is a major void. Payment processing has
some holes too.

 > That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people
 > to use Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the
 > UI using terms understood by the people using them.

Definitely. All of my projects required that. Changing the UI.

I'm not saying which ERP terminologies are de facto or "best practice". It's
just a real world
observation.

Either OFBiz moves towards the real world, or vice versa. There are some
clients who say they want
to follow best practices, and they want to try going with the "OFBiz way of
doing things".

Whatever we do, I think it'll be fun to focus on channeling all we got into
OFBiz and make it more
viable in the real world. Well, unless OFBiz overtakes the number one ERP
system. :)

Jonathon

Skip wrote:
> Tim
>
> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.  Let me respond briefly.
>
> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB".
> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for testing.  I
am
> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.
>
> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz
applications,
> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to your
> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager
type
> person the meaning of these terms:
> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is
Capture,
> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
> etc. etc.
> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and they
> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would actually
be
> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These are a
few
> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back
office
> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications OOTB,
the
> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly
jargon.
> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but critical
> when needed.
>
> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to use
> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using terms
> understood by the people using them.
>
> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated lots of
> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and
commercial.
> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am
committed
> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.
>
> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing
agents,

> the sales folks, and all the rest.
>
> Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who contribute
> have done.
>
> Skip
>
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[hidden email]]
>   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
>   To: [hidden email]
>   Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>
>
>   Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB,
> but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their
> business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be able to
> get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of ramp up
> on the existing processes.
>
>
>   Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to

their

> mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
> there.
>
>
>
>   Cheers,
>   Tim
>   --
>   Tim Ruppert
>   HotWax Media
>   http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>
>
>   o:801.649.6594
>   f:801.649.6595
>
>
>
>
>   On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:
>
>
>     Jacopo
>
>
>     Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
> Source
>     ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
> acronym
>     for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a

great
>     ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree
>     wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning side.
I

>     would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice users
> up to
>     speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).
>
>
>     As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes and
> making
>     it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
> considerable
>     customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
>     businesses.
>
>
>     It is though perfect for VARs like me.
>
>
>     My two $.
>
>
>     Skip
>
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[hidden email]]
>     Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
>     To: [hidden email]
>     Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>     catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>     java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>
>
>
>
>     Walter Vaughan wrote:
>       Len Parker wrote:
>
>
>         I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
>         "java -jar ofbiz.jar":
>
>
>       What does "java -version" say?
>       Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?
>
>
>       Regarding your boss...
>       If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you are
>       looking for.
>
>
>     OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system that
>     can be used out of the box.
>     Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
>     commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it to

fit

>     their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
>     developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and widgets is
>     efficient and easy.
>     There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most
>     remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
>     this gap soon.
>
>
>     Jacopo
>
>
>       If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
>       dashboards, built in Business Intellegence tools, and you can deal
> with
>       GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
> This
>       is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
>       options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
> something
>       to show the pointy headed boss).
>
>
>       Welcome aboard!
>
>
>       --
>       Walter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date:

9/25/2007 8:02 AM

[David E Jones]

Just a general thought: if better terms for things in OFBiz can be found I think everyone will be very open to changing them.

Usually what happens, based on experience with clients, is they are actually thinking of something different than the concept used in OFBiz and so the change in the term causes more problems than it helps... and telling them what it means and how it is different (usually less granular) than what they were imagining was more effective.

-David


skip@theDevers wrote:

> Jonathon
>
> "I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms...".  I am happy to
> help with this because I would rather not spend gobs of hand-holding time.
> I expect to go live with my first customer in about 2 months and they will
> have to live with a majority of the functionality in its current state.  A
> "jargon dictionary" would be very helpful to them.
>
> I have 20 years experience with these folks and have written two accounting
> applications used by hundreds of users over that time, so I "think" I have a
> fair understanding of the terminolgy in the industries I have served.  It is
> my experience that GL, A/P and A/R are fairly generic.  Beyond that, the
> lingo begins to diverge.
>
> If you will give me a list of the modules you haven't done yet, maybe we can
> split the load and feed the result back to the community.
>
> Skip
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathon -- Improov [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:04 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>
>
> Skip,
>
> I agree with you, as will many other VARs who have taken up OFBiz.
>
> I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms, everything OFBiz
> but above the framework.
> After that, I'll be approaching the real world (not the OFBiz world) to
> tally the facts and
> figures, and to get a good list of the discrepancy between "OFBiz world" and
> "real world". Such a
> "mapping" between OFBiz and the real world will make it MUCH easier for me
> to talk to future clients!
>
> As it is now, more than half of my projects required some work to gravitate
> OFBiz towards the real
> world. In particular, accounting is a major void. Payment processing has
> some holes too.
>
>  > That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people
>  > to use Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the
>  > UI using terms understood by the people using them.
>
> Definitely. All of my projects required that. Changing the UI.
>
> I'm not saying which ERP terminologies are de facto or "best practice". It's
> just a real world
> observation.
>
> Either OFBiz moves towards the real world, or vice versa. There are some
> clients who say they want
> to follow best practices, and they want to try going with the "OFBiz way of
> doing things".
>
> Whatever we do, I think it'll be fun to focus on channeling all we got into
> OFBiz and make it more
> viable in the real world. Well, unless OFBiz overtakes the number one ERP
> system. :)
>
> Jonathon
>
> Skip wrote:
>> Tim
>>
>> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.  Let me respond briefly.
>>
>> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB".
>> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
>> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for testing.  I
> am
>> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.
>>
>> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz
> applications,
>> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to your
>> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager
> type
>> person the meaning of these terms:
>> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is
> Capture,
>> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
>> etc. etc.
>> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and they
>> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would actually
> be
>> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These are a
> few
>> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back
> office
>> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications OOTB,
> the
>> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly
> jargon.
>> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but critical
>> when needed.
>>
>> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to use
>> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using terms
>> understood by the people using them.
>>
>> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated lots of
>> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and
> commercial.
>> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am
> committed
>> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.
>>
>> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
>> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
>> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing
> agents,
>> the sales folks, and all the rest.
>>
>> Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who contribute
>> have done.
>>
>> Skip
>>
>>
>>   -----Original Message-----
>>   From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
>>   To: [hidden email]
>>   Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>
>>
>>   Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB,
>> but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their
>> business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be able to
>> get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of ramp up
>> on the existing processes.
>>
>>
>>   Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to
> their
>> mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
>> there.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Cheers,
>>   Tim
>>   --
>>   Tim Ruppert
>>   HotWax Media
>>   http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>
>>
>>   o:801.649.6594
>>   f:801.649.6595
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:
>>
>>
>>     Jacopo
>>
>>
>>     Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
>> Source
>>     ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
>> acronym
>>     for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a
> great
>>     ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree
>>     wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning side.
> I
>>     would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice users
>> up to
>>     speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).
>>
>>
>>     As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes and
>> making
>>     it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
>> considerable
>>     customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
>>     businesses.
>>
>>
>>     It is though perfect for VARs like me.
>>
>>
>>     My two $.
>>
>>
>>     Skip
>>
>>
>>     -----Original Message-----
>>     From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>     Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
>>     To: [hidden email]
>>     Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>     catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>     java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Walter Vaughan wrote:
>>       Len Parker wrote:
>>
>>
>>         I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
>>         "java -jar ofbiz.jar":
>>
>>
>>       What does "java -version" say?
>>       Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?
>>
>>
>>       Regarding your boss...
>>       If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you are
>>       looking for.
>>
>>
>>     OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system that
>>     can be used out of the box.
>>     Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
>>     commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it to
> fit
>>     their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
>>     developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and widgets is
>>     efficient and easy.
>>     There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most
>>     remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
>>     this gap soon.
>>
>>
>>     Jacopo
>>
>>
>>       If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
>>       dashboards, built in Business Intellegence tools, and you can deal
>> with
>>       GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
>> This
>>       is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
>>       options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
>> something
>>       to show the pointy headed boss).
>>
>>
>>       Welcome aboard!
>>
>>
>>       --
>>       Walter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date:
> 9/25/2007 8:02 AM
>
>

[jonwimp]

Jacopo,

The Manufacturing module in OFBiz is an exception! It's very complete and very powerful. Thanks to
you. :)

Jonathon

Jacopo Cappellato wrote:

> Adrian,
>
> Adrian Crum wrote:
>> Skip,
>>
>> You'll find the OFBiz community to be a bit schizophrenic.
>
> hmmm... ok, I am, you are right on this. :-)
>
>> Those who say OFBiz is ready to use out of the box are generally those
>> who use it primarily for eCommerce. People like yourself who say that
>> OFBiz out of the box is unusable without a custom UI are the ones who
>> want to build back office functionality.
>
> No, I don't agree with this. I'm not an expert of ecommerce and I've
> never delivered this application to my customers: I'm really focused on
> the backend (orders, manufacturing and fulfillment processes in general).
> One of our customer is live with the OFBiz since June (they are an
> important Italian company and they are running OFBiz to manage the
> processes of a manufacturing facility in China) and I can proudly
> confirm that they are running it with very minor customizations.
>
> Just my 2 cents
>
> Jacopo
>
>> Both camps are correct - it just depends upon your perspective.
>>
>> Btw, there are efforts underway to make user-friendly apps based on
>> OFBiz. Asset Maintenance is a good example. We're using it here (a
>> non-eCommerce installation) out of the box.
>>
>> -Adrian
>>
>> Skip wrote:
>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.  Let me respond briefly.
>>>
>>> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to
>>> OOTB".
>>> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
>>> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for
>>> testing.  I am
>>> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.
>>>
>>> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz
>>> applications,
>>> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to
>>> your
>>> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or
>>> manager type
>>> person the meaning of these terms:
>>> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is
>>> Capture,
>>> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
>>> etc. etc.
>>> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and
>>> they
>>> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would
>>> actually be
>>> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These
>>> are a few
>>> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back
>>> office
>>> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications
>>> OOTB, the
>>> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly
>>> jargon.
>>> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but
>>> critical
>>> when needed.
>>>
>>> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to
>>> use
>>> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using
>>> terms
>>> understood by the people using them.
>>>
>>> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated
>>> lots of
>>> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and
>>> commercial.
>>> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am
>>> committed
>>> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.
>>>
>>> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
>>> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
>>> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing
>>> agents,
>>> the sales folks, and all the rest.
>>>
>>> Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who
>>> contribute
>>> have done.
>>>
>>> Skip
>>>
>>>
>>>   -----Original Message-----
>>>   From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
>>>   To: [hidden email]
>>>   Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>>
>>>
>>>   Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to
>>> OOTB,
>>> but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their
>>> business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be
>>> able to
>>> get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of
>>> ramp up
>>> on the existing processes.
>>>
>>>
>>>   Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to
>>> their
>>> mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
>>> there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Cheers,
>>>   Tim
>>>   --
>>>   Tim Ruppert
>>>   HotWax Media
>>>   http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>
>>>
>>>   o:801.649.6594
>>>   f:801.649.6595
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>     Jacopo
>>>
>>>
>>>     Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
>>> Source
>>>     ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
>>> acronym
>>>     for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a
>>> great
>>>     ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree
>>>     wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning
>>> side. I
>>>     would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice
>>> users
>>> up to
>>>     speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).
>>>
>>>
>>>     As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes
>>> and
>>> making
>>>     it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
>>> considerable
>>>     customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
>>>     businesses.
>>>
>>>
>>>     It is though perfect for VARs like me.
>>>
>>>
>>>     My two $.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Skip
>>>
>>>
>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>     From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>     Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
>>>     To: [hidden email]
>>>     Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>>     catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>>     java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Walter Vaughan wrote:
>>>       Len Parker wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>         I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
>>>         "java -jar ofbiz.jar":
>>>
>>>
>>>       What does "java -version" say?
>>>       Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?
>>>
>>>
>>>       Regarding your boss...
>>>       If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you
>>> are
>>>       looking for.
>>>
>>>
>>>     OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system
>>> that
>>>     can be used out of the box.
>>>     Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
>>>     commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it
>>> to fit
>>>     their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
>>>     developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and
>>> widgets is
>>>     efficient and easy.
>>>     There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most
>>>     remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
>>>     this gap soon.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Jacopo
>>>
>>>
>>>       If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
>>>       dashboards, built in Business Intellegence tools, and you can deal
>>> with
>>>       GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
>>> This
>>>       is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
>>>       options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
>>> something
>>>       to show the pointy headed boss).
>>>
>>>
>>>       Welcome aboard!
>>>
>>>
>>>       --
>>>       Walter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>

[jonwimp]

 > The most difficult client is someone who tries to shoehorn OFBiz into the one
 > app they're used to!

Oh. Didn't realize I was going through nightmare after nightmare. :) Yeah, I think you're right.

Jonathon

Tim Ruppert wrote:

> No nerves my friend - just trying to make sure the information gets
> articulated properly to everyone.  And yes, some terms are not friendly
> for the local small businessman - but since they weren't just made up
> out of thin air - I challenge you to ask them just about any question
> where the answer doesn't come from a very simple, quite limiting tool
> and expect to get a proper answer.
>
> OFBiz is a GREAT platform to build a business around, you just have to
> have worked with it longer than some people might like to get
> proficient.  And THAT should be the goal with all of this IMHO.
>
> By the way, I would LOVE to see mods to the backend that would help
> usability.  My personal experience is it's much easier to train them to
> train others than it is to tailor every operation to what a user is used
> to.  The most difficult client is someone who tries to shoehorn OFBiz
> into the one app they're used to!
>
> Cheers,
> Tim
> --
> Tim Ruppert
> HotWax Media
> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>
> o:801.649.6594
> f:801.649.6595
>
>
> On Sep 25, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Skip wrote:
>
>> Tim
>>
>> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.  Let me respond briefly.
>>
>> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB".
>> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
>> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for
>> testing.  I am
>> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.
>>
>> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz
>> applications,
>> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to your
>> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager
>> type
>> person the meaning of these terms:
>> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is
>> Capture,
>> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
>> etc. etc.
>> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and they
>> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would
>> actually be
>> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These are
>> a few
>> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back
>> office
>> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications
>> OOTB, the
>> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly
>> jargon.
>> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but critical
>> when needed.
>>
>> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to use
>> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using terms
>> understood by the people using them.
>>
>> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated lots of
>> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and
>> commercial.
>> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am
>> committed
>> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.
>>
>> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
>> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
>> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing
>> agents,
>> the sales folks, and all the rest.
>>
>> Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who contribute
>> have done.
>>
>> Skip
>>
>>
>>   -----Original Message-----
>>   From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
>>   To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>   Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>
>>
>>   Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB,
>> but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their
>> business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be able to
>> get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of ramp up
>> on the existing processes.
>>
>>
>>   Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to
>> their
>> mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
>> there.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Cheers,
>>   Tim
>>   --
>>   Tim Ruppert
>>   HotWax Media
>>   http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>
>>
>>   o:801.649.6594
>>   f:801.649.6595
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:
>>
>>
>>     Jacopo
>>
>>
>>     Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
>> Source
>>     ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
>> acronym
>>     for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a
>> great
>>     ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree
>>     wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning
>> side. I
>>     would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice users
>> up to
>>     speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).
>>
>>
>>     As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes and
>> making
>>     it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
>> considerable
>>     customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
>>     businesses.
>>
>>
>>     It is though perfect for VARs like me.
>>
>>
>>     My two $.
>>
>>
>>     Skip
>>
>>
>>     -----Original Message-----
>>     From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>     Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
>>     To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>     Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>     catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>     java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Walter Vaughan wrote:
>>       Len Parker wrote:
>>
>>
>>         I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
>>         "java -jar ofbiz.jar":
>>
>>
>>       What does "java -version" say?
>>       Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?
>>
>>
>>       Regarding your boss...
>>       If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you are
>>       looking for.
>>
>>
>>     OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system that
>>     can be used out of the box.
>>     Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
>>     commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it
>> to fit
>>     their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
>>     developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and widgets is
>>     efficient and easy.
>>     There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most
>>     remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
>>     this gap soon.
>>
>>
>>     Jacopo
>>
>>
>>       If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
>>       dashboards, built in Business Intellegenc e tools, and you can deal
>> with
>>       GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
>> This
>>       is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
>>       options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
>> something
>>       to show the pointy headed boss).
>>
>>
>>       Welcome aboard!
>>
>>
>>       --
>>       Walter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

[SkipDever]

David

I expect you are right, especially as I have spent most of my time digging
through source code instead of learning Ofbiz in detail from a users
perspective.  However, I think it can only be helpful to document exactly
what each of these fields that are not self-explanatory do.  I know it will
help me when I deliver this from gettig a million support phone calls.

Skip

-----Original Message-----
From: David E Jones [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:44 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)



Just a general thought: if better terms for things in OFBiz can be found I
think everyone will be very open to changing them.

Usually what happens, based on experience with clients, is they are actually
thinking of something different than the concept used in OFBiz and so the
change in the term causes more problems than it helps... and telling them
what it means and how it is different (usually less granular) than what they
were imagining was more effective.

-David


skip@theDevers wrote:
> Jonathon
>
> "I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms...".  I am happy
to
> help with this because I would rather not spend gobs of hand-holding time.
> I expect to go live with my first customer in about 2 months and they will
> have to live with a majority of the functionality in its current state.  A
> "jargon dictionary" would be very helpful to them.
>
> I have 20 years experience with these folks and have written two
accounting
> applications used by hundreds of users over that time, so I "think" I have
a
> fair understanding of the terminolgy in the industries I have served.  It
is
> my experience that GL, A/P and A/R are fairly generic.  Beyond that, the
> lingo begins to diverge.
>
> If you will give me a list of the modules you haven't done yet, maybe we
can

> split the load and feed the result back to the community.
>
> Skip
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathon -- Improov [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:04 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>
>
> Skip,
>
> I agree with you, as will many other VARs who have taken up OFBiz.
>
> I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms, everything OFBiz
> but above the framework.
> After that, I'll be approaching the real world (not the OFBiz world) to
> tally the facts and
> figures, and to get a good list of the discrepancy between "OFBiz world"

and
> "real world". Such a
> "mapping" between OFBiz and the real world will make it MUCH easier for me
> to talk to future clients!
>
> As it is now, more than half of my projects required some work to
gravitate

> OFBiz towards the real
> world. In particular, accounting is a major void. Payment processing has
> some holes too.
>
>  > That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people
>  > to use Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the
>  > UI using terms understood by the people using them.
>
> Definitely. All of my projects required that. Changing the UI.
>
> I'm not saying which ERP terminologies are de facto or "best practice".

It's
> just a real world
> observation.
>
> Either OFBiz moves towards the real world, or vice versa. There are some
> clients who say they want
> to follow best practices, and they want to try going with the "OFBiz way
of
> doing things".
>
> Whatever we do, I think it'll be fun to focus on channeling all we got
into

> OFBiz and make it more
> viable in the real world. Well, unless OFBiz overtakes the number one ERP
> system. :)
>
> Jonathon
>
> Skip wrote:
>> Tim
>>
>> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.  Let me respond briefly.
>>
>> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB".
>> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
>> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for testing.  I
> am
>> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.
>>
>> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz
> applications,
>> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to

your
>> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager
> type
>> person the meaning of these terms:
>> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is
> Capture,
>> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
>> etc. etc.
>> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and
they

>> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would actually
> be
>> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These are a
> few
>> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back
> office
>> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications OOTB,
> the
>> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly
> jargon.
>> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but

critical
>> when needed.
>>
>> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to use
>> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using
terms
>> understood by the people using them.
>>
>> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated lots
of

>> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and
> commercial.
>> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am
> committed
>> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.
>>
>> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
>> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
>> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing
> agents,
>> the sales folks, and all the rest.
>>
>> Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who contribute
>> have done.
>>
>> Skip
>>
>>
>>   -----Original Message-----
>>   From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
>>   To: [hidden email]
>>   Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>
>>
>>   Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB,
>> but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their
>> business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be able to
>> get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of ramp

up

>> on the existing processes.
>>
>>
>>   Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to
> their
>> mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
>> there.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Cheers,
>>   Tim
>>   --
>>   Tim Ruppert
>>   HotWax Media
>>   http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>
>>
>>   o:801.649.6594
>>   f:801.649.6595
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:
>>
>>
>>     Jacopo
>>
>>
>>     Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
>> Source
>>     ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
>> acronym
>>     for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a
> great
>>     ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree
>>     wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning

side.
> I
>>     would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice
users

>> up to
>>     speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).
>>
>>
>>     As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes and
>> making
>>     it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
>> considerable
>>     customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
>>     businesses.
>>
>>
>>     It is though perfect for VARs like me.
>>
>>
>>     My two $.
>>
>>
>>     Skip
>>
>>
>>     -----Original Message-----
>>     From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>     Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
>>     To: [hidden email]
>>     Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>     catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>     java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Walter Vaughan wrote:
>>       Len Parker wrote:
>>
>>
>>         I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
>>         "java -jar ofbiz.jar":
>>
>>
>>       What does "java -version" say?
>>       Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?
>>
>>
>>       Regarding your boss...
>>       If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you are
>>       looking for.
>>
>>
>>     OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system that
>>     can be used out of the box.
>>     Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
>>     commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it to
> fit
>>     their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
>>     developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and widgets

is

>>     efficient and easy.
>>     There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most
>>     remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
>>     this gap soon.
>>
>>
>>     Jacopo
>>
>>
>>       If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
>>       dashboards, built in Business Intellegence tools, and you can deal
>> with
>>       GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
>> This
>>       is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
>>       options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
>> something
>>       to show the pointy headed boss).
>>
>>
>>       Welcome aboard!
>>
>>
>>       --
>>       Walter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date:
> 9/25/2007 8:02 AM
>
>

[BJ Freeman]

I have found the webtools, which have been greatly enhanced in the last
few year,  to be a benefit in this area.

skip@theDevers sent the following on 9/25/2007 9:16 PM:

> David
>
> I expect you are right, especially as I have spent most of my time digging
> through source code instead of learning Ofbiz in detail from a users
> perspective.  However, I think it can only be helpful to document exactly
> what each of these fields that are not self-explanatory do.  I know it will
> help me when I deliver this from gettig a million support phone calls.
>
> Skip
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David E Jones [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:44 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>
>
>
> Just a general thought: if better terms for things in OFBiz can be found I
> think everyone will be very open to changing them.
>
> Usually what happens, based on experience with clients, is they are actually
> thinking of something different than the concept used in OFBiz and so the
> change in the term causes more problems than it helps... and telling them
> what it means and how it is different (usually less granular) than what they
> were imagining was more effective.
>
> -David
>
>
> skip@theDevers wrote:
>> Jonathon
>>
>> "I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms...".  I am happy
> to
>> help with this because I would rather not spend gobs of hand-holding time.
>> I expect to go live with my first customer in about 2 months and they will
>> have to live with a majority of the functionality in its current state.  A
>> "jargon dictionary" would be very helpful to them.
>>
>> I have 20 years experience with these folks and have written two
> accounting
>> applications used by hundreds of users over that time, so I "think" I have
> a
>> fair understanding of the terminolgy in the industries I have served.  It
> is
>> my experience that GL, A/P and A/R are fairly generic.  Beyond that, the
>> lingo begins to diverge.
>>
>> If you will give me a list of the modules you haven't done yet, maybe we
> can
>> split the load and feed the result back to the community.
>>
>> Skip
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jonathon -- Improov [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:04 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>
>>
>> Skip,
>>
>> I agree with you, as will many other VARs who have taken up OFBiz.
>>
>> I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms, everything OFBiz
>> but above the framework.
>> After that, I'll be approaching the real world (not the OFBiz world) to
>> tally the facts and
>> figures, and to get a good list of the discrepancy between "OFBiz world"
> and
>> "real world". Such a
>> "mapping" between OFBiz and the real world will make it MUCH easier for me
>> to talk to future clients!
>>
>> As it is now, more than half of my projects required some work to
> gravitate
>> OFBiz towards the real
>> world. In particular, accounting is a major void. Payment processing has
>> some holes too.
>>
>>  > That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people
>>  > to use Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the
>>  > UI using terms understood by the people using them.
>>
>> Definitely. All of my projects required that. Changing the UI.
>>
>> I'm not saying which ERP terminologies are de facto or "best practice".
> It's
>> just a real world
>> observation.
>>
>> Either OFBiz moves towards the real world, or vice versa. There are some
>> clients who say they want
>> to follow best practices, and they want to try going with the "OFBiz way
> of
>> doing things".
>>
>> Whatever we do, I think it'll be fun to focus on channeling all we got
> into
>> OFBiz and make it more
>> viable in the real world. Well, unless OFBiz overtakes the number one ERP
>> system. :)
>>
>> Jonathon
>>
>> Skip wrote:
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.  Let me respond briefly.
>>>
>>> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB".
>>> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
>>> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for testing.  I
>> am
>>> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.
>>>
>>> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz
>> applications,
>>> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to
> your
>>> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager
>> type
>>> person the meaning of these terms:
>>> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is
>> Capture,
>>> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
>>> etc. etc.
>>> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and
> they
>>> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would actually
>> be
>>> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These are a
>> few
>>> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back
>> office
>>> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications OOTB,
>> the
>>> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly
>> jargon.
>>> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but
> critical
>>> when needed.
>>>
>>> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to use
>>> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using
> terms
>>> understood by the people using them.
>>>
>>> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated lots
> of
>>> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and
>> commercial.
>>> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am
>> committed
>>> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.
>>>
>>> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
>>> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
>>> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing
>> agents,
>>> the sales folks, and all the rest.
>>>
>>> Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who contribute
>>> have done.
>>>
>>> Skip
>>>
>>>
>>>   -----Original Message-----
>>>   From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
>>>   To: [hidden email]
>>>   Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>>
>>>
>>>   Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB,
>>> but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their
>>> business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be able to
>>> get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of ramp
> up
>>> on the existing processes.
>>>
>>>
>>>   Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to
>> their
>>> mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
>>> there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Cheers,
>>>   Tim
>>>   --
>>>   Tim Ruppert
>>>   HotWax Media
>>>   http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>
>>>
>>>   o:801.649.6594
>>>   f:801.649.6595
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>     Jacopo
>>>
>>>
>>>     Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
>>> Source
>>>     ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
>>> acronym
>>>     for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a
>> great
>>>     ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree
>>>     wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning
> side.
>> I
>>>     would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice
> users
>>> up to
>>>     speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).
>>>
>>>
>>>     As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes and
>>> making
>>>     it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
>>> considerable
>>>     customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
>>>     businesses.
>>>
>>>
>>>     It is though perfect for VARs like me.
>>>
>>>
>>>     My two $.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Skip
>>>
>>>
>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>     From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>     Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
>>>     To: [hidden email]
>>>     Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>>     catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>>     java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Walter Vaughan wrote:
>>>       Len Parker wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>         I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
>>>         "java -jar ofbiz.jar":
>>>
>>>
>>>       What does "java -version" say?
>>>       Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?
>>>
>>>
>>>       Regarding your boss...
>>>       If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you are
>>>       looking for.
>>>
>>>
>>>     OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system that
>>>     can be used out of the box.
>>>     Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
>>>     commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it to
>> fit
>>>     their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
>>>     developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and widgets
> is
>>>     efficient and easy.
>>>     There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most
>>>     remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
>>>     this gap soon.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Jacopo
>>>
>>>
>>>       If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
>>>       dashboards, built in Business Intellegence tools, and you can deal
>>> with
>>>       GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
>>> This
>>>       is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
>>>       options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
>>> something
>>>       to show the pointy headed boss).
>>>
>>>
>>>       Welcome aboard!
>>>
>>>
>>>       --
>>>       Walter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date:
>> 9/25/2007 8:02 AM
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[BJ Freeman]

Maybe having the ability to use a language properties to change the
display of the names would be the best approach.
this would allow more versatility without changing the core application.

David E Jones sent the following on 9/25/2007 8:43 PM:

>
> Just a general thought: if better terms for things in OFBiz can be found
> I think everyone will be very open to changing them.
>
> Usually what happens, based on experience with clients, is they are
> actually thinking of something different than the concept used in OFBiz
> and so the change in the term causes more problems than it helps... and
> telling them what it means and how it is different (usually less
> granular) than what they were imagining was more effective.
>
> -David
>
>
> skip@theDevers wrote:
>> Jonathon
>>
>> "I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms...".  I am
>> happy to
>> help with this because I would rather not spend gobs of hand-holding
>> time.
>> I expect to go live with my first customer in about 2 months and they
>> will
>> have to live with a majority of the functionality in its current
>> state.  A
>> "jargon dictionary" would be very helpful to them.
>>
>> I have 20 years experience with these folks and have written two
>> accounting
>> applications used by hundreds of users over that time, so I "think" I
>> have a
>> fair understanding of the terminolgy in the industries I have served.
>> It is
>> my experience that GL, A/P and A/R are fairly generic.  Beyond that, the
>> lingo begins to diverge.
>>
>> If you will give me a list of the modules you haven't done yet, maybe
>> we can
>> split the load and feed the result back to the community.
>>
>> Skip
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jonathon -- Improov [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:04 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>
>>
>> Skip,
>>
>> I agree with you, as will many other VARs who have taken up OFBiz.
>>
>> I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms, everything OFBiz
>> but above the framework.
>> After that, I'll be approaching the real world (not the OFBiz world) to
>> tally the facts and
>> figures, and to get a good list of the discrepancy between "OFBiz
>> world" and
>> "real world". Such a
>> "mapping" between OFBiz and the real world will make it MUCH easier
>> for me
>> to talk to future clients!
>>
>> As it is now, more than half of my projects required some work to
>> gravitate
>> OFBiz towards the real
>> world. In particular, accounting is a major void. Payment processing has
>> some holes too.
>>
>>  > That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people
>>  > to use Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the
>>  > UI using terms understood by the people using them.
>>
>> Definitely. All of my projects required that. Changing the UI.
>>
>> I'm not saying which ERP terminologies are de facto or "best
>> practice". It's
>> just a real world
>> observation.
>>
>> Either OFBiz moves towards the real world, or vice versa. There are some
>> clients who say they want
>> to follow best practices, and they want to try going with the "OFBiz
>> way of
>> doing things".
>>
>> Whatever we do, I think it'll be fun to focus on channeling all we got
>> into
>> OFBiz and make it more
>> viable in the real world. Well, unless OFBiz overtakes the number one ERP
>> system. :)
>>
>> Jonathon
>>
>> Skip wrote:
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.  Let me respond briefly.
>>>
>>> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to
>>> OOTB".
>>> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
>>> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for
>>> testing.  I
>> am
>>> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.
>>>
>>> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz
>> applications,
>>> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to
>>> your
>>> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager
>> type
>>> person the meaning of these terms:
>>> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is
>> Capture,
>>> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
>>> etc. etc.
>>> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and
>>> they
>>> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would
>>> actually
>> be
>>> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These are a
>> few
>>> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back
>> office
>>> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications OOTB,
>> the
>>> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly
>> jargon.
>>> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but
>>> critical
>>> when needed.
>>>
>>> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to
>>> use
>>> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using
>>> terms
>>> understood by the people using them.
>>>
>>> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated
>>> lots of
>>> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and
>> commercial.
>>> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am
>> committed
>>> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.
>>>
>>> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
>>> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
>>> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing
>> agents,
>>> the sales folks, and all the rest.
>>>
>>> Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who
>>> contribute
>>> have done.
>>>
>>> Skip
>>>
>>>
>>>   -----Original Message-----
>>>   From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
>>>   To: [hidden email]
>>>   Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>>
>>>
>>>   Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to
>>> OOTB,
>>> but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their
>>> business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be
>>> able to
>>> get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of
>>> ramp up
>>> on the existing processes.
>>>
>>>
>>>   Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to
>> their
>>> mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
>>> there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Cheers,
>>>   Tim
>>>   --
>>>   Tim Ruppert
>>>   HotWax Media
>>>   http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>
>>>
>>>   o:801.649.6594
>>>   f:801.649.6595
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>     Jacopo
>>>
>>>
>>>     Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
>>> Source
>>>     ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
>>> acronym
>>>     for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a
>> great
>>>     ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree
>>>     wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning
>>> side.
>> I
>>>     would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice
>>> users
>>> up to
>>>     speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).
>>>
>>>
>>>     As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes
>>> and
>>> making
>>>     it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
>>> considerable
>>>     customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
>>>     businesses.
>>>
>>>
>>>     It is though perfect for VARs like me.
>>>
>>>
>>>     My two $.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Skip
>>>
>>>
>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>     From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>     Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
>>>     To: [hidden email]
>>>     Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>>     catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>>     java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Walter Vaughan wrote:
>>>       Len Parker wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>         I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
>>>         "java -jar ofbiz.jar":
>>>
>>>
>>>       What does "java -version" say?
>>>       Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?
>>>
>>>
>>>       Regarding your boss...
>>>       If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you
>>> are
>>>       looking for.
>>>
>>>
>>>     OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system
>>> that
>>>     can be used out of the box.
>>>     Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
>>>     commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it to
>> fit
>>>     their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
>>>     developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and
>>> widgets is
>>>     efficient and easy.
>>>     There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most
>>>     remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
>>>     this gap soon.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Jacopo
>>>
>>>
>>>       If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
>>>       dashboards, built in Business Intellegence tools, and you can deal
>>> with
>>>       GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
>>> This
>>>       is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
>>>       options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
>>> something
>>>       to show the pointy headed boss).
>>>
>>>
>>>       Welcome aboard!
>>>
>>>
>>>       --
>>>       Walter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date:
>> 9/25/2007 8:02 AM
>>
>>
>
>
>

[jonwimp]

 > If you will give me a list of the modules you haven't done yet, maybe we can
 > split the load and feed the result back to the community.

Accounting is where you can help! I've done PartyMgr, halfway through Catalog and Product.

I've been using DocBook. Do you know DocBook? It's easier than HTML, and it's plain text so it can
be version-controlled.

Jonathon

skip@theDevers wrote:

> Jonathon
>
> "I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms...".  I am happy to
> help with this because I would rather not spend gobs of hand-holding time.
> I expect to go live with my first customer in about 2 months and they will
> have to live with a majority of the functionality in its current state.  A
> "jargon dictionary" would be very helpful to them.
>
> I have 20 years experience with these folks and have written two accounting
> applications used by hundreds of users over that time, so I "think" I have a
> fair understanding of the terminolgy in the industries I have served.  It is
> my experience that GL, A/P and A/R are fairly generic.  Beyond that, the
> lingo begins to diverge.
>
> If you will give me a list of the modules you haven't done yet, maybe we can
> split the load and feed the result back to the community.
>
> Skip
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathon -- Improov [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:04 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>
>
> Skip,
>
> I agree with you, as will many other VARs who have taken up OFBiz.
>
> I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms, everything OFBiz
> but above the framework.
> After that, I'll be approaching the real world (not the OFBiz world) to
> tally the facts and
> figures, and to get a good list of the discrepancy between "OFBiz world" and
> "real world". Such a
> "mapping" between OFBiz and the real world will make it MUCH easier for me
> to talk to future clients!
>
> As it is now, more than half of my projects required some work to gravitate
> OFBiz towards the real
> world. In particular, accounting is a major void. Payment processing has
> some holes too.
>
>  > That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people
>  > to use Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the
>  > UI using terms understood by the people using them.
>
> Definitely. All of my projects required that. Changing the UI.
>
> I'm not saying which ERP terminologies are de facto or "best practice". It's
> just a real world
> observation.
>
> Either OFBiz moves towards the real world, or vice versa. There are some
> clients who say they want
> to follow best practices, and they want to try going with the "OFBiz way of
> doing things".
>
> Whatever we do, I think it'll be fun to focus on channeling all we got into
> OFBiz and make it more
> viable in the real world. Well, unless OFBiz overtakes the number one ERP
> system. :)
>
> Jonathon
>
> Skip wrote:
>> Tim
>>
>> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.  Let me respond briefly.
>>
>> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB".
>> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
>> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for testing.  I
> am
>> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.
>>
>> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz
> applications,
>> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to your
>> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager
> type
>> person the meaning of these terms:
>> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is
> Capture,
>> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
>> etc. etc.
>> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and they
>> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would actually
> be
>> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These are a
> few
>> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back
> office
>> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications OOTB,
> the
>> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly
> jargon.
>> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but critical
>> when needed.
>>
>> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to use
>> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using terms
>> understood by the people using them.
>>
>> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated lots of
>> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and
> commercial.
>> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am
> committed
>> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.
>>
>> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
>> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
>> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing
> agents,
>> the sales folks, and all the rest.
>>
>> Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who contribute
>> have done.
>>
>> Skip
>>
>>
>>   -----Original Message-----
>>   From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
>>   To: [hidden email]
>>   Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>
>>
>>   Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB,
>> but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their
>> business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be able to
>> get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of ramp up
>> on the existing processes.
>>
>>
>>   Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to
> their
>> mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
>> there.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Cheers,
>>   Tim
>>   --
>>   Tim Ruppert
>>   HotWax Media
>>   http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>
>>
>>   o:801.649.6594
>>   f:801.649.6595
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:
>>
>>
>>     Jacopo
>>
>>
>>     Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
>> Source
>>     ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
>> acronym
>>     for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a
> great
>>     ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree
>>     wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning side.
> I
>>     would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice users
>> up to
>>     speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).
>>
>>
>>     As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes and
>> making
>>     it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
>> considerable
>>     customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
>>     businesses.
>>
>>
>>     It is though perfect for VARs like me.
>>
>>
>>     My two $.
>>
>>
>>     Skip
>>
>>
>>     -----Original Message-----
>>     From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>     Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
>>     To: [hidden email]
>>     Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>     catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>     java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Walter Vaughan wrote:
>>       Len Parker wrote:
>>
>>
>>         I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
>>         "java -jar ofbiz.jar":
>>
>>
>>       What does "java -version" say?
>>       Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?
>>
>>
>>       Regarding your boss...
>>       If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you are
>>       looking for.
>>
>>
>>     OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system that
>>     can be used out of the box.
>>     Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
>>     commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it to
> fit
>>     their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
>>     developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and widgets is
>>     efficient and easy.
>>     There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most
>>     remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
>>     this gap soon.
>>
>>
>>     Jacopo
>>
>>
>>       If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
>>       dashboards, built in Business Intellegence tools, and you can deal
>> with
>>       GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
>> This
>>       is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
>>       options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
>> something
>>       to show the pointy headed boss).
>>
>>
>>       Welcome aboard!
>>
>>
>>       --
>>       Walter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date:
> 9/25/2007 8:02 AM
>
>
>

[jonwimp]

Yeah, in fact, this was how we "changed" the UI terms. We were talking about a mere discrepancy in
terminologies, I think.

Jonathon

BJ Freeman wrote:

> Maybe having the ability to use a language properties to change the
> display of the names would be the best approach.
> this would allow more versatility without changing the core application.
>
> David E Jones sent the following on 9/25/2007 8:43 PM:
>> Just a general thought: if better terms for things in OFBiz can be found
>> I think everyone will be very open to changing them.
>>
>> Usually what happens, based on experience with clients, is they are
>> actually thinking of something different than the concept used in OFBiz
>> and so the change in the term causes more problems than it helps... and
>> telling them what it means and how it is different (usually less
>> granular) than what they were imagining was more effective.
>>
>> -David
>>
>>
>> skip@theDevers wrote:
>>> Jonathon
>>>
>>> "I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms...".  I am
>>> happy to
>>> help with this because I would rather not spend gobs of hand-holding
>>> time.
>>> I expect to go live with my first customer in about 2 months and they
>>> will
>>> have to live with a majority of the functionality in its current
>>> state.  A
>>> "jargon dictionary" would be very helpful to them.
>>>
>>> I have 20 years experience with these folks and have written two
>>> accounting
>>> applications used by hundreds of users over that time, so I "think" I
>>> have a
>>> fair understanding of the terminolgy in the industries I have served.
>>> It is
>>> my experience that GL, A/P and A/R are fairly generic.  Beyond that, the
>>> lingo begins to diverge.
>>>
>>> If you will give me a list of the modules you haven't done yet, maybe
>>> we can
>>> split the load and feed the result back to the community.
>>>
>>> Skip
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Jonathon -- Improov [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:04 PM
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>>
>>>
>>> Skip,
>>>
>>> I agree with you, as will many other VARs who have taken up OFBiz.
>>>
>>> I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms, everything OFBiz
>>> but above the framework.
>>> After that, I'll be approaching the real world (not the OFBiz world) to
>>> tally the facts and
>>> figures, and to get a good list of the discrepancy between "OFBiz
>>> world" and
>>> "real world". Such a
>>> "mapping" between OFBiz and the real world will make it MUCH easier
>>> for me
>>> to talk to future clients!
>>>
>>> As it is now, more than half of my projects required some work to
>>> gravitate
>>> OFBiz towards the real
>>> world. In particular, accounting is a major void. Payment processing has
>>> some holes too.
>>>
>>>  > That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people
>>>  > to use Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the
>>>  > UI using terms understood by the people using them.
>>>
>>> Definitely. All of my projects required that. Changing the UI.
>>>
>>> I'm not saying which ERP terminologies are de facto or "best
>>> practice". It's
>>> just a real world
>>> observation.
>>>
>>> Either OFBiz moves towards the real world, or vice versa. There are some
>>> clients who say they want
>>> to follow best practices, and they want to try going with the "OFBiz
>>> way of
>>> doing things".
>>>
>>> Whatever we do, I think it'll be fun to focus on channeling all we got
>>> into
>>> OFBiz and make it more
>>> viable in the real world. Well, unless OFBiz overtakes the number one ERP
>>> system. :)
>>>
>>> Jonathon
>>>
>>> Skip wrote:
>>>> Tim
>>>>
>>>> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.  Let me respond briefly.
>>>>
>>>> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to
>>>> OOTB".
>>>> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
>>>> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for
>>>> testing.  I
>>> am
>>>> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.
>>>>
>>>> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz
>>> applications,
>>>> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to
>>>> your
>>>> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager
>>> type
>>>> person the meaning of these terms:
>>>> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is
>>> Capture,
>>>> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
>>>> etc. etc.
>>>> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and
>>>> they
>>>> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would
>>>> actually
>>> be
>>>> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These are a
>>> few
>>>> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back
>>> office
>>>> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications OOTB,
>>> the
>>>> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly
>>> jargon.
>>>> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but
>>>> critical
>>>> when needed.
>>>>
>>>> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to
>>>> use
>>>> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using
>>>> terms
>>>> understood by the people using them.
>>>>
>>>> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated
>>>> lots of
>>>> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and
>>> commercial.
>>>> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am
>>> committed
>>>> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.
>>>>
>>>> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
>>>> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
>>>> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing
>>> agents,
>>>> the sales folks, and all the rest.
>>>>
>>>> Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who
>>>> contribute
>>>> have done.
>>>>
>>>> Skip
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   -----Original Message-----
>>>>   From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
>>>>   To: [hidden email]
>>>>   Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to
>>>> OOTB,
>>>> but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their
>>>> business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be
>>>> able to
>>>> get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of
>>>> ramp up
>>>> on the existing processes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to
>>> their
>>>> mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
>>>> there.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Cheers,
>>>>   Tim
>>>>   --
>>>>   Tim Ruppert
>>>>   HotWax Media
>>>>   http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   o:801.649.6594
>>>>   f:801.649.6595
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Jacopo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
>>>> Source
>>>>     ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
>>>> acronym
>>>>     for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a
>>> great
>>>>     ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree
>>>>     wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning
>>>> side.
>>> I
>>>>     would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice
>>>> users
>>>> up to
>>>>     speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes
>>>> and
>>>> making
>>>>     it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
>>>> considerable
>>>>     customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
>>>>     businesses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     It is though perfect for VARs like me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     My two $.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Skip
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>>     From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>     Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
>>>>     To: [hidden email]
>>>>     Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>>>     catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>>>     java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Walter Vaughan wrote:
>>>>       Len Parker wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
>>>>         "java -jar ofbiz.jar":
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       What does "java -version" say?
>>>>       Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       Regarding your boss...
>>>>       If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you
>>>> are
>>>>       looking for.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system
>>>> that
>>>>     can be used out of the box.
>>>>     Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
>>>>     commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it to
>>> fit
>>>>     their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
>>>>     developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and
>>>> widgets is
>>>>     efficient and easy.
>>>>     There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most
>>>>     remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
>>>>     this gap soon.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Jacopo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
>>>>       dashboards, built in Business Intellegence tools, and you can deal
>>>> with
>>>>       GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
>>>> This
>>>>       is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
>>>>       options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
>>>> something
>>>>       to show the pointy headed boss).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       Welcome aboard!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       --
>>>>       Walter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date:
>>> 9/25/2007 8:02 AM
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[SkipDever]

Accounting is mine then.  Sadly though, I don't know docbook.  Can you point
me somewhere to have a look at some documentation?

Skip

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathon -- Improov [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:46 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)


 > If you will give me a list of the modules you haven't done yet, maybe we
can
 > split the load and feed the result back to the community.

Accounting is where you can help! I've done PartyMgr, halfway through
Catalog and Product.

I've been using DocBook. Do you know DocBook? It's easier than HTML, and
it's plain text so it can
be version-controlled.

Jonathon

skip@theDevers wrote:
> Jonathon
>
> "I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms...".  I am happy
to
> help with this because I would rather not spend gobs of hand-holding time.
> I expect to go live with my first customer in about 2 months and they will
> have to live with a majority of the functionality in its current state.  A
> "jargon dictionary" would be very helpful to them.
>
> I have 20 years experience with these folks and have written two
accounting
> applications used by hundreds of users over that time, so I "think" I have
a
> fair understanding of the terminolgy in the industries I have served.  It
is
> my experience that GL, A/P and A/R are fairly generic.  Beyond that, the
> lingo begins to diverge.
>
> If you will give me a list of the modules you haven't done yet, maybe we
can

> split the load and feed the result back to the community.
>
> Skip
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathon -- Improov [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:04 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>
>
> Skip,
>
> I agree with you, as will many other VARs who have taken up OFBiz.
>
> I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms, everything OFBiz
> but above the framework.
> After that, I'll be approaching the real world (not the OFBiz world) to
> tally the facts and
> figures, and to get a good list of the discrepancy between "OFBiz world"

and
> "real world". Such a
> "mapping" between OFBiz and the real world will make it MUCH easier for me
> to talk to future clients!
>
> As it is now, more than half of my projects required some work to
gravitate

> OFBiz towards the real
> world. In particular, accounting is a major void. Payment processing has
> some holes too.
>
>  > That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people
>  > to use Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the
>  > UI using terms understood by the people using them.
>
> Definitely. All of my projects required that. Changing the UI.
>
> I'm not saying which ERP terminologies are de facto or "best practice".

It's
> just a real world
> observation.
>
> Either OFBiz moves towards the real world, or vice versa. There are some
> clients who say they want
> to follow best practices, and they want to try going with the "OFBiz way
of
> doing things".
>
> Whatever we do, I think it'll be fun to focus on channeling all we got
into

> OFBiz and make it more
> viable in the real world. Well, unless OFBiz overtakes the number one ERP
> system. :)
>
> Jonathon
>
> Skip wrote:
>> Tim
>>
>> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.  Let me respond briefly.
>>
>> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB".
>> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
>> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for testing.  I
> am
>> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.
>>
>> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz
> applications,
>> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to

your
>> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager
> type
>> person the meaning of these terms:
>> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is
> Capture,
>> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
>> etc. etc.
>> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and
they

>> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would actually
> be
>> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These are a
> few
>> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back
> office
>> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications OOTB,
> the
>> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly
> jargon.
>> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but

critical
>> when needed.
>>
>> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to use
>> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using
terms
>> understood by the people using them.
>>
>> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated lots
of

>> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and
> commercial.
>> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am
> committed
>> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.
>>
>> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
>> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
>> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing
> agents,
>> the sales folks, and all the rest.
>>
>> Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who contribute
>> have done.
>>
>> Skip
>>
>>
>>   -----Original Message-----
>>   From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
>>   To: [hidden email]
>>   Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>
>>
>>   Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB,
>> but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their
>> business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be able to
>> get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of ramp

up

>> on the existing processes.
>>
>>
>>   Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to
> their
>> mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
>> there.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Cheers,
>>   Tim
>>   --
>>   Tim Ruppert
>>   HotWax Media
>>   http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>
>>
>>   o:801.649.6594
>>   f:801.649.6595
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:
>>
>>
>>     Jacopo
>>
>>
>>     Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
>> Source
>>     ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
>> acronym
>>     for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a
> great
>>     ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree
>>     wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning

side.
> I
>>     would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice
users

>> up to
>>     speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).
>>
>>
>>     As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes and
>> making
>>     it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
>> considerable
>>     customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
>>     businesses.
>>
>>
>>     It is though perfect for VARs like me.
>>
>>
>>     My two $.
>>
>>
>>     Skip
>>
>>
>>     -----Original Message-----
>>     From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>     Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
>>     To: [hidden email]
>>     Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>     catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>     java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Walter Vaughan wrote:
>>       Len Parker wrote:
>>
>>
>>         I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
>>         "java -jar ofbiz.jar":
>>
>>
>>       What does "java -version" say?
>>       Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?
>>
>>
>>       Regarding your boss...
>>       If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you are
>>       looking for.
>>
>>
>>     OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system that
>>     can be used out of the box.
>>     Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
>>     commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it to
> fit
>>     their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
>>     developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and widgets

is

>>     efficient and easy.
>>     There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most
>>     remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
>>     this gap soon.
>>
>>
>>     Jacopo
>>
>>
>>       If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
>>       dashboards, built in Business Intellegence tools, and you can deal
>> with
>>       GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
>> This
>>       is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
>>       options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
>> something
>>       to show the pointy headed boss).
>>
>>
>>       Welcome aboard!
>>
>>
>>       --
>>       Walter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date:
> 9/25/2007 8:02 AM
>
>
>

[SkipDever]

BJ

I agree completely.  Making these properties that can be changed would be
especially benefitial to non-english language users.

Skip

-----Original Message-----
From: BJ Freeman [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:42 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)


Maybe having the ability to use a language properties to change the
display of the names would be the best approach.
this would allow more versatility without changing the core application.

David E Jones sent the following on 9/25/2007 8:43 PM:

>
> Just a general thought: if better terms for things in OFBiz can be found
> I think everyone will be very open to changing them.
>
> Usually what happens, based on experience with clients, is they are
> actually thinking of something different than the concept used in OFBiz
> and so the change in the term causes more problems than it helps... and
> telling them what it means and how it is different (usually less
> granular) than what they were imagining was more effective.
>
> -David
>
>
> skip@theDevers wrote:
>> Jonathon
>>
>> "I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms...".  I am
>> happy to
>> help with this because I would rather not spend gobs of hand-holding
>> time.
>> I expect to go live with my first customer in about 2 months and they
>> will
>> have to live with a majority of the functionality in its current
>> state.  A
>> "jargon dictionary" would be very helpful to them.
>>
>> I have 20 years experience with these folks and have written two
>> accounting
>> applications used by hundreds of users over that time, so I "think" I
>> have a
>> fair understanding of the terminolgy in the industries I have served.
>> It is
>> my experience that GL, A/P and A/R are fairly generic.  Beyond that, the
>> lingo begins to diverge.
>>
>> If you will give me a list of the modules you haven't done yet, maybe
>> we can
>> split the load and feed the result back to the community.
>>
>> Skip
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jonathon -- Improov [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:04 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>
>>
>> Skip,
>>
>> I agree with you, as will many other VARs who have taken up OFBiz.
>>
>> I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms, everything OFBiz
>> but above the framework.
>> After that, I'll be approaching the real world (not the OFBiz world) to
>> tally the facts and
>> figures, and to get a good list of the discrepancy between "OFBiz
>> world" and
>> "real world". Such a
>> "mapping" between OFBiz and the real world will make it MUCH easier
>> for me
>> to talk to future clients!
>>
>> As it is now, more than half of my projects required some work to
>> gravitate
>> OFBiz towards the real
>> world. In particular, accounting is a major void. Payment processing has
>> some holes too.
>>
>>  > That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people
>>  > to use Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the
>>  > UI using terms understood by the people using them.
>>
>> Definitely. All of my projects required that. Changing the UI.
>>
>> I'm not saying which ERP terminologies are de facto or "best
>> practice". It's
>> just a real world
>> observation.
>>
>> Either OFBiz moves towards the real world, or vice versa. There are some
>> clients who say they want
>> to follow best practices, and they want to try going with the "OFBiz
>> way of
>> doing things".
>>
>> Whatever we do, I think it'll be fun to focus on channeling all we got
>> into
>> OFBiz and make it more
>> viable in the real world. Well, unless OFBiz overtakes the number one ERP
>> system. :)
>>
>> Jonathon
>>
>> Skip wrote:
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.  Let me respond briefly.
>>>
>>> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to
>>> OOTB".
>>> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
>>> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for
>>> testing.  I
>> am
>>> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.
>>>
>>> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz
>> applications,
>>> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to
>>> your
>>> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager
>> type
>>> person the meaning of these terms:
>>> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is
>> Capture,
>>> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
>>> etc. etc.
>>> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and
>>> they
>>> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would
>>> actually
>> be
>>> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These are a
>> few
>>> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back
>> office
>>> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications OOTB,
>> the
>>> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly
>> jargon.
>>> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but
>>> critical
>>> when needed.
>>>
>>> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to
>>> use
>>> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using
>>> terms
>>> understood by the people using them.
>>>
>>> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated
>>> lots of
>>> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and
>> commercial.
>>> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am
>> committed
>>> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.
>>>
>>> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
>>> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
>>> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing
>> agents,
>>> the sales folks, and all the rest.
>>>
>>> Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who
>>> contribute
>>> have done.
>>>
>>> Skip
>>>
>>>
>>>   -----Original Message-----
>>>   From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
>>>   To: [hidden email]
>>>   Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>>
>>>
>>>   Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to
>>> OOTB,
>>> but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their
>>> business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be
>>> able to
>>> get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of
>>> ramp up
>>> on the existing processes.
>>>
>>>
>>>   Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to
>> their
>>> mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
>>> there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Cheers,
>>>   Tim
>>>   --
>>>   Tim Ruppert
>>>   HotWax Media
>>>   http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>
>>>
>>>   o:801.649.6594
>>>   f:801.649.6595
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>     Jacopo
>>>
>>>
>>>     Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
>>> Source
>>>     ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
>>> acronym
>>>     for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a
>> great
>>>     ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree
>>>     wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning
>>> side.
>> I
>>>     would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice
>>> users
>>> up to
>>>     speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).
>>>
>>>
>>>     As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes
>>> and
>>> making
>>>     it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
>>> considerable
>>>     customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
>>>     businesses.
>>>
>>>
>>>     It is though perfect for VARs like me.
>>>
>>>
>>>     My two $.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Skip
>>>
>>>
>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>     From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>     Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
>>>     To: [hidden email]
>>>     Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>>     catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>>     java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Walter Vaughan wrote:
>>>       Len Parker wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>         I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
>>>         "java -jar ofbiz.jar":
>>>
>>>
>>>       What does "java -version" say?
>>>       Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?
>>>
>>>
>>>       Regarding your boss...
>>>       If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you
>>> are
>>>       looking for.
>>>
>>>
>>>     OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system
>>> that
>>>     can be used out of the box.
>>>     Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
>>>     commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it to
>> fit
>>>     their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
>>>     developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and
>>> widgets is
>>>     efficient and easy.
>>>     There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most
>>>     remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
>>>     this gap soon.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Jacopo
>>>
>>>
>>>       If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
>>>       dashboards, built in Business Intellegence tools, and you can deal
>>> with
>>>       GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
>>> This
>>>       is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
>>>       options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
>>> something
>>>       to show the pointy headed boss).
>>>
>>>
>>>       Welcome aboard!
>>>
>>>
>>>       --
>>>       Walter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date:
>> 9/25/2007 8:02 AM
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Canh Phan]

--- "skip@theDevers" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Accounting is mine then.  Sadly though, I don't know
> docbook.  Can you point
> me somewhere to have a look at some documentation?
>
> Skip
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathon -- Improov [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:46 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException:
> Cannot init()
> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization
> failed:
> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not
> available)
>
>
>  > If you will give me a list of the modules you
> haven't done yet, maybe we
> can
>  > split the load and feed the result back to the
> community.
>
> Accounting is where you can help! I've done
> PartyMgr, halfway through
> Catalog and Product.
>
> I've been using DocBook. Do you know DocBook? It's
> easier than HTML, and
> it's plain text so it can
> be version-controlled.
>
> Jonathon
>
> skip@theDevers wrote:
> > Jonathon
> >
> > "I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those
> terms...".  I am happy
> to
> > help with this because I would rather not spend
> gobs of hand-holding time.
> > I expect to go live with my first customer in
> about 2 months and they will
> > have to live with a majority of the functionality
> in its current state.  A
> > "jargon dictionary" would be very helpful to them.
> >
> > I have 20 years experience with these folks and
> have written two
> accounting
> > applications used by hundreds of users over that
> time, so I "think" I have
> a
> > fair understanding of the terminolgy in the
> industries I have served.  It
> is
> > my experience that GL, A/P and A/R are fairly
> generic.  Beyond that, the
> > lingo begins to diverge.
> >
> > If you will give me a list of the modules you
> haven't done yet, maybe we
> can
> > split the load and feed the result back to the
> community.
> >
> > Skip
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jonathon -- Improov
> [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:04 PM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re:
> org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
> > catalina-container (Protocol handler
> initialization failed:
> > java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not
> available)
> >
> >
> > Skip,
> >
> > I agree with you, as will many other VARs who have
> taken up OFBiz.
> >
> > I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those
> terms, everything OFBiz
> > but above the framework.
> > After that, I'll be approaching the real world
> (not the OFBiz world) to
> > tally the facts and
> > figures, and to get a good list of the discrepancy
> between "OFBiz world"
> and
> > "real world". Such a
> > "mapping" between OFBiz and the real world will
> make it MUCH easier for me
> > to talk to future clients!
> >
> > As it is now, more than half of my projects
> required some work to
> gravitate
> > OFBiz towards the real
> > world. In particular, accounting is a major void.
> Payment processing has
> > some holes too.
> >
> >  > That is why I say that it is probably
> uneconomical to train people
> >  > to use Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more
> economical to rewrite the
> >  > UI using terms understood by the people using
> them.
> >
> > Definitely. All of my projects required that.
> Changing the UI.
> >
> > I'm not saying which ERP terminologies are de
> facto or "best practice".
> It's
> > just a real world
> > observation.
> >
> > Either OFBiz moves towards the real world, or vice
> versa. There are some
> > clients who say they want
> > to follow best practices, and they want to try
> going with the "OFBiz way
> of
> > doing things".
> >
> > Whatever we do, I think it'll be fun to focus on
> channeling all we got
> into
> > OFBiz and make it more
> > viable in the real world. Well, unless OFBiz
> overtakes the number one ERP
> > system. :)
> >
> > Jonathon
> >
> > Skip wrote:
> >> Tim
> >>
> >> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.
> Let me respond briefly.
> >>
> >> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general
> to use it close to OOTB".
> >> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue
> here.  I am a software
> >> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using
> it except for testing.  I
> > am
> >> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses
> with three to follow.
> >>
> >> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back
> office Ofbiz
> > applications,
> >> are not designed for the real people to use.  As
> some examples, go to
> your
> >> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask
> the A/R, A/P or manager
> > type
> >> person the meaning of these terms:
> >> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type
> Id, Manual Auth Is
> > Capture,
> >> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct,
> Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
> >> etc. etc.
> >> If that person can correctly identify the purpose
> of any of them (and
> they
> >> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very
> surprised.  I would actually
> > be
> >> surprised if you know all of them off the top of
> your head.  These are a
> > few
> >> of the ones I copied and pasted from various
> places in the Ofbiz back
> > office
> >> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use
> these applications OOTB,
> > the
> >> person using it has to be educated on the meaning
> of what is mostly
> > jargon.
> >> Remember too that some of these applications are
> rarely used, but
> critical
> >> when needed.
> >>
> >> That is why I say that it is probably
> uneconomical to train people to use
>

=== message truncated ===



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting 

[David E Jones]

Have you read through "The Data Model Resource Book(s)"? They don't have everything in them, but are extremely helpful for getting the general concepts.

-David


skip@theDevers wrote:

> David
>
> I expect you are right, especially as I have spent most of my time digging
> through source code instead of learning Ofbiz in detail from a users
> perspective.  However, I think it can only be helpful to document exactly
> what each of these fields that are not self-explanatory do.  I know it will
> help me when I deliver this from gettig a million support phone calls.
>
> Skip
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David E Jones [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:44 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>
>
>
> Just a general thought: if better terms for things in OFBiz can be found I
> think everyone will be very open to changing them.
>
> Usually what happens, based on experience with clients, is they are actually
> thinking of something different than the concept used in OFBiz and so the
> change in the term causes more problems than it helps... and telling them
> what it means and how it is different (usually less granular) than what they
> were imagining was more effective.
>
> -David
>
>
> skip@theDevers wrote:
>> Jonathon
>>
>> "I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms...".  I am happy
> to
>> help with this because I would rather not spend gobs of hand-holding time.
>> I expect to go live with my first customer in about 2 months and they will
>> have to live with a majority of the functionality in its current state.  A
>> "jargon dictionary" would be very helpful to them.
>>
>> I have 20 years experience with these folks and have written two
> accounting
>> applications used by hundreds of users over that time, so I "think" I have
> a
>> fair understanding of the terminolgy in the industries I have served.  It
> is
>> my experience that GL, A/P and A/R are fairly generic.  Beyond that, the
>> lingo begins to diverge.
>>
>> If you will give me a list of the modules you haven't done yet, maybe we
> can
>> split the load and feed the result back to the community.
>>
>> Skip
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jonathon -- Improov [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:04 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>
>>
>> Skip,
>>
>> I agree with you, as will many other VARs who have taken up OFBiz.
>>
>> I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms, everything OFBiz
>> but above the framework.
>> After that, I'll be approaching the real world (not the OFBiz world) to
>> tally the facts and
>> figures, and to get a good list of the discrepancy between "OFBiz world"
> and
>> "real world". Such a
>> "mapping" between OFBiz and the real world will make it MUCH easier for me
>> to talk to future clients!
>>
>> As it is now, more than half of my projects required some work to
> gravitate
>> OFBiz towards the real
>> world. In particular, accounting is a major void. Payment processing has
>> some holes too.
>>
>>  > That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people
>>  > to use Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the
>>  > UI using terms understood by the people using them.
>>
>> Definitely. All of my projects required that. Changing the UI.
>>
>> I'm not saying which ERP terminologies are de facto or "best practice".
> It's
>> just a real world
>> observation.
>>
>> Either OFBiz moves towards the real world, or vice versa. There are some
>> clients who say they want
>> to follow best practices, and they want to try going with the "OFBiz way
> of
>> doing things".
>>
>> Whatever we do, I think it'll be fun to focus on channeling all we got
> into
>> OFBiz and make it more
>> viable in the real world. Well, unless OFBiz overtakes the number one ERP
>> system. :)
>>
>> Jonathon
>>
>> Skip wrote:
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.  Let me respond briefly.
>>>
>>> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB".
>>> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
>>> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for testing.  I
>> am
>>> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.
>>>
>>> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz
>> applications,
>>> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to
> your
>>> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager
>> type
>>> person the meaning of these terms:
>>> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is
>> Capture,
>>> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
>>> etc. etc.
>>> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and
> they
>>> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would actually
>> be
>>> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These are a
>> few
>>> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back
>> office
>>> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications OOTB,
>> the
>>> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly
>> jargon.
>>> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but
> critical
>>> when needed.
>>>
>>> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to use
>>> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using
> terms
>>> understood by the people using them.
>>>
>>> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated lots
> of
>>> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and
>> commercial.
>>> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am
>> committed
>>> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.
>>>
>>> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
>>> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
>>> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing
>> agents,
>>> the sales folks, and all the rest.
>>>
>>> Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who contribute
>>> have done.
>>>
>>> Skip
>>>
>>>
>>>   -----Original Message-----
>>>   From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
>>>   To: [hidden email]
>>>   Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>>
>>>
>>>   Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB,
>>> but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their
>>> business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be able to
>>> get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of ramp
> up
>>> on the existing processes.
>>>
>>>
>>>   Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to
>> their
>>> mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
>>> there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Cheers,
>>>   Tim
>>>   --
>>>   Tim Ruppert
>>>   HotWax Media
>>>   http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>
>>>
>>>   o:801.649.6594
>>>   f:801.649.6595
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>     Jacopo
>>>
>>>
>>>     Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
>>> Source
>>>     ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
>>> acronym
>>>     for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a
>> great
>>>     ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree
>>>     wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning
> side.
>> I
>>>     would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice
> users
>>> up to
>>>     speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).
>>>
>>>
>>>     As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes and
>>> making
>>>     it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
>>> considerable
>>>     customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
>>>     businesses.
>>>
>>>
>>>     It is though perfect for VARs like me.
>>>
>>>
>>>     My two $.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Skip
>>>
>>>
>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>     From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>     Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
>>>     To: [hidden email]
>>>     Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>>     catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>>     java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Walter Vaughan wrote:
>>>       Len Parker wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>         I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
>>>         "java -jar ofbiz.jar":
>>>
>>>
>>>       What does "java -version" say?
>>>       Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?
>>>
>>>
>>>       Regarding your boss...
>>>       If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you are
>>>       looking for.
>>>
>>>
>>>     OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system that
>>>     can be used out of the box.
>>>     Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
>>>     commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it to
>> fit
>>>     their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
>>>     developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and widgets
> is
>>>     efficient and easy.
>>>     There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most
>>>     remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
>>>     this gap soon.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Jacopo
>>>
>>>
>>>       If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
>>>       dashboards, built in Business Intellegence tools, and you can deal
>>> with
>>>       GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
>>> This
>>>       is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
>>>       options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
>>> something
>>>       to show the pointy headed boss).
>>>
>>>
>>>       Welcome aboard!
>>>
>>>
>>>       --
>>>       Walter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date:
>> 9/25/2007 8:02 AM
>>
>>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

De : "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>

> Have you read through "The Data Model Resource Book(s)"? They don't have everything in them, but are extremely helpful for getting
the general concepts.
Mandatory.

You may also have a look at http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBENDUSER/Undersun+Doc+Site+PDF+Exports

Jacques

>
> -David
>
>
> skip@theDevers wrote:
> > David
> >
> > I expect you are right, especially as I have spent most of my time digging
> > through source code instead of learning Ofbiz in detail from a users
> > perspective.  However, I think it can only be helpful to document exactly
> > what each of these fields that are not self-explanatory do.  I know it will
> > help me when I deliver this from gettig a million support phone calls.
> >
> > Skip
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David E Jones [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:44 PM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
> > catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
> > java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
> >
> >
> >
> > Just a general thought: if better terms for things in OFBiz can be found I
> > think everyone will be very open to changing them.
> >
> > Usually what happens, based on experience with clients, is they are actually
> > thinking of something different than the concept used in OFBiz and so the
> > change in the term causes more problems than it helps... and telling them
> > what it means and how it is different (usually less granular) than what they
> > were imagining was more effective.
> >
> > -David
> >
> >
> > skip@theDevers wrote:
> >> Jonathon
> >>
> >> "I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms...".  I am happy
> > to
> >> help with this because I would rather not spend gobs of hand-holding time.
> >> I expect to go live with my first customer in about 2 months and they will
> >> have to live with a majority of the functionality in its current state.  A
> >> "jargon dictionary" would be very helpful to them.
> >>
> >> I have 20 years experience with these folks and have written two
> > accounting
> >> applications used by hundreds of users over that time, so I "think" I have
> > a
> >> fair understanding of the terminolgy in the industries I have served.  It
> > is
> >> my experience that GL, A/P and A/R are fairly generic.  Beyond that, the
> >> lingo begins to diverge.
> >>
> >> If you will give me a list of the modules you haven't done yet, maybe we
> > can
> >> split the load and feed the result back to the community.
> >>
> >> Skip
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Jonathon -- Improov [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:04 PM
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
> >> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
> >> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
> >>
> >>
> >> Skip,
> >>
> >> I agree with you, as will many other VARs who have taken up OFBiz.
> >>
> >> I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms, everything OFBiz
> >> but above the framework.
> >> After that, I'll be approaching the real world (not the OFBiz world) to
> >> tally the facts and
> >> figures, and to get a good list of the discrepancy between "OFBiz world"
> > and
> >> "real world". Such a
> >> "mapping" between OFBiz and the real world will make it MUCH easier for me
> >> to talk to future clients!
> >>
> >> As it is now, more than half of my projects required some work to
> > gravitate
> >> OFBiz towards the real
> >> world. In particular, accounting is a major void. Payment processing has
> >> some holes too.
> >>
> >>  > That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people
> >>  > to use Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the
> >>  > UI using terms understood by the people using them.
> >>
> >> Definitely. All of my projects required that. Changing the UI.
> >>
> >> I'm not saying which ERP terminologies are de facto or "best practice".
> > It's
> >> just a real world
> >> observation.
> >>
> >> Either OFBiz moves towards the real world, or vice versa. There are some
> >> clients who say they want
> >> to follow best practices, and they want to try going with the "OFBiz way
> > of
> >> doing things".
> >>
> >> Whatever we do, I think it'll be fun to focus on channeling all we got
> > into
> >> OFBiz and make it more
> >> viable in the real world. Well, unless OFBiz overtakes the number one ERP
> >> system. :)
> >>
> >> Jonathon
> >>
> >> Skip wrote:
> >>> Tim
> >>>
> >>> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.  Let me respond briefly.
> >>>
> >>> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB".
> >>> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
> >>> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for testing.  I
> >> am
> >>> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.
> >>>
> >>> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz
> >> applications,
> >>> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to
> > your
> >>> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager
> >> type
> >>> person the meaning of these terms:
> >>> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is
> >> Capture,
> >>> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
> >>> etc. etc.
> >>> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and
> > they
> >>> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would actually
> >> be
> >>> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These are a
> >> few
> >>> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back
> >> office
> >>> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications OOTB,
> >> the
> >>> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly
> >> jargon.
> >>> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but
> > critical
> >>> when needed.
> >>>
> >>> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to use
> >>> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using
> > terms
> >>> understood by the people using them.
> >>>
> >>> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated lots
> > of
> >>> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and
> >> commercial.
> >>> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am
> >> committed
> >>> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.
> >>>
> >>> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
> >>> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
> >>> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing
> >> agents,
> >>> the sales folks, and all the rest.
> >>>
> >>> Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who contribute
> >>> have done.
> >>>
> >>> Skip
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   -----Original Message-----
> >>>   From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >>>   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
> >>>   To: [hidden email]
> >>>   Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
> >>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
> >>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB,
> >>> but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their
> >>> business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be able to
> >>> get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of ramp
> > up
> >>> on the existing processes.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to
> >> their
> >>> mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
> >>> there.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   Cheers,
> >>>   Tim
> >>>   --
> >>>   Tim Ruppert
> >>>   HotWax Media
> >>>   http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   o:801.649.6594
> >>>   f:801.649.6595
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>     Jacopo
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>     Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
> >>> Source
> >>>     ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
> >>> acronym
> >>>     for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a
> >> great
> >>>     ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree
> >>>     wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning
> > side.
> >> I
> >>>     would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice
> > users
> >>> up to
> >>>     speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>     As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes and
> >>> making
> >>>     it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
> >>> considerable
> >>>     customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
> >>>     businesses.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>     It is though perfect for VARs like me.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>     My two $.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>     Skip
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>     -----Original Message-----
> >>>     From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >>>     Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
> >>>     To: [hidden email]
> >>>     Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
> >>>     catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
> >>>     java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>     Walter Vaughan wrote:
> >>>       Len Parker wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>         I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
> >>>         "java -jar ofbiz.jar":
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>       What does "java -version" say?
> >>>       Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>       Regarding your boss...
> >>>       If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you are
> >>>       looking for.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>     OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system that
> >>>     can be used out of the box.
> >>>     Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
> >>>     commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it to
> >> fit
> >>>     their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
> >>>     developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and widgets
> > is
> >>>     efficient and easy.
> >>>     There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most
> >>>     remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
> >>>     this gap soon.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>     Jacopo
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>       If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
> >>>       dashboards, built in Business Intellegence tools, and you can deal
> >>> with
> >>>       GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
> >>> This
> >>>       is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
> >>>       options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
> >>> something
> >>>       to show the pointy headed boss).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>       Welcome aboard!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>       --
> >>>       Walter
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date:
> >> 9/25/2007 8:02 AM
> >>
> >>
> >
>

[jonwimp]

Skip,

Try XMLmind . I use Emacs. As for documentation, you might not need it! DocBook is simple,
intuitive. It's like HTML, but much simpler and easier.

Jonathon

skip@theDevers wrote:

> Accounting is mine then.  Sadly though, I don't know docbook.  Can you point
> me somewhere to have a look at some documentation?
>
> Skip
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathon -- Improov [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:46 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>
>
>  > If you will give me a list of the modules you haven't done yet, maybe we
> can
>  > split the load and feed the result back to the community.
>
> Accounting is where you can help! I've done PartyMgr, halfway through
> Catalog and Product.
>
> I've been using DocBook. Do you know DocBook? It's easier than HTML, and
> it's plain text so it can
> be version-controlled.
>
> Jonathon
>
> skip@theDevers wrote:
>> Jonathon
>>
>> "I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms...".  I am happy
> to
>> help with this because I would rather not spend gobs of hand-holding time.
>> I expect to go live with my first customer in about 2 months and they will
>> have to live with a majority of the functionality in its current state.  A
>> "jargon dictionary" would be very helpful to them.
>>
>> I have 20 years experience with these folks and have written two
> accounting
>> applications used by hundreds of users over that time, so I "think" I have
> a
>> fair understanding of the terminolgy in the industries I have served.  It
> is
>> my experience that GL, A/P and A/R are fairly generic.  Beyond that, the
>> lingo begins to diverge.
>>
>> If you will give me a list of the modules you haven't done yet, maybe we
> can
>> split the load and feed the result back to the community.
>>
>> Skip
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jonathon -- Improov [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:04 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>
>>
>> Skip,
>>
>> I agree with you, as will many other VARs who have taken up OFBiz.
>>
>> I'm currently attempting to document ALL of those terms, everything OFBiz
>> but above the framework.
>> After that, I'll be approaching the real world (not the OFBiz world) to
>> tally the facts and
>> figures, and to get a good list of the discrepancy between "OFBiz world"
> and
>> "real world". Such a
>> "mapping" between OFBiz and the real world will make it MUCH easier for me
>> to talk to future clients!
>>
>> As it is now, more than half of my projects required some work to
> gravitate
>> OFBiz towards the real
>> world. In particular, accounting is a major void. Payment processing has
>> some holes too.
>>
>>  > That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people
>>  > to use Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the
>>  > UI using terms understood by the people using them.
>>
>> Definitely. All of my projects required that. Changing the UI.
>>
>> I'm not saying which ERP terminologies are de facto or "best practice".
> It's
>> just a real world
>> observation.
>>
>> Either OFBiz moves towards the real world, or vice versa. There are some
>> clients who say they want
>> to follow best practices, and they want to try going with the "OFBiz way
> of
>> doing things".
>>
>> Whatever we do, I think it'll be fun to focus on channeling all we got
> into
>> OFBiz and make it more
>> viable in the real world. Well, unless OFBiz overtakes the number one ERP
>> system. :)
>>
>> Jonathon
>>
>> Skip wrote:
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve.  My apologies.  Let me respond briefly.
>>>
>>> "Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB".
>>> My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
>>> engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for testing.  I
>> am
>>> implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.
>>>
>>> It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz
>> applications,
>>> are not designed for the real people to use.  As some examples, go to
> your
>>> friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager
>> type
>>> person the meaning of these terms:
>>> Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is
>> Capture,
>>> Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
>>> etc. etc.
>>> If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and
> they
>>> have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised.  I would actually
>> be
>>> surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head.  These are a
>> few
>>> of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back
>> office
>>> applicatons.  There are hundreds more.  To use these applications OOTB,
>> the
>>> person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly
>> jargon.
>>> Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but
> critical
>>> when needed.
>>>
>>> That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to use
>>> Ofbiz OOTB.  It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using
> terms
>>> understood by the people using them.
>>>
>>> By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here.  I have evaluated lots
> of
>>> ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and
>> commercial.
>>> Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am
>> committed
>>> to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.
>>>
>>> What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
>>> about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
>>> clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing
>> agents,
>>> the sales folks, and all the rest.
>>>
>>> Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who contribute
>>> have done.
>>>
>>> Skip
>>>
>>>
>>>   -----Original Message-----
>>>   From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
>>>   To: [hidden email]
>>>   Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>> catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>> java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>>
>>>
>>>   Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB,
>>> but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their
>>> business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be able to
>>> get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of ramp
> up
>>> on the existing processes.
>>>
>>>
>>>   Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to
>> their
>>> mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
>>> there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Cheers,
>>>   Tim
>>>   --
>>>   Tim Ruppert
>>>   HotWax Media
>>>   http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>
>>>
>>>   o:801.649.6594
>>>   f:801.649.6595
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>     Jacopo
>>>
>>>
>>>     Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
>>> Source
>>>     ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
>>> acronym
>>>     for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a
>> great
>>>     ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree
>>>     wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning
> side.
>> I
>>>     would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice
> users
>>> up to
>>>     speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).
>>>
>>>
>>>     As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes and
>>> making
>>>     it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
>>> considerable
>>>     customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
>>>     businesses.
>>>
>>>
>>>     It is though perfect for VARs like me.
>>>
>>>
>>>     My two $.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Skip
>>>
>>>
>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>     From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>     Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
>>>     To: [hidden email]
>>>     Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
>>>     catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
>>>     java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Walter Vaughan wrote:
>>>       Len Parker wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>         I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
>>>         "java -jar ofbiz.jar":
>>>
>>>
>>>       What does "java -version" say?
>>>       Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?
>>>
>>>
>>>       Regarding your boss...
>>>       If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you are
>>>       looking for.
>>>
>>>
>>>     OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system that
>>>     can be used out of the box.
>>>     Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
>>>     commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it to
>> fit
>>>     their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
>>>     developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and widgets
> is
>>>     efficient and easy.
>>>     There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most
>>>     remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
>>>     this gap soon.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Jacopo
>>>
>>>
>>>       If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
>>>       dashboards, built in Business Intellegence tools, and you can deal
>>> with
>>>       GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
>>> This
>>>       is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
>>>       options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
>>> something
>>>       to show the pointy headed boss).
>>>
>>>
>>>       Welcome aboard!
>>>
>>>
>>>       --
>>>       Walter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date:
>> 9/25/2007 8:02 AM
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[SkipDever]

David


"Have you read through "The Data Model Resource Book(s)"? They don't have
everything in them, but are extremely helpful for getting the general
concepts."

Yep, volumn 1 only though.

Skip