weird behavior in reply lately

[taher]

Hi folks,

I'm not sure if something is wrong, but lately I keep replying to
individuals instead of the mailing list (or sometimes both). Did
something change in our mailing servers? Or could it be that gmail
changed its behavior perhaps?

[Aditya Sharma]

Hi Taher,

It's due to missing reply-to headers.

See the mail thread *Reply-to address missing for dev and user mailing
list* : https://markmail.org/message/l6z542dowhpl3t36

Thanks and regards,
Aditya Sharma

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 9:10 PM Taher Alkhateeb <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> I'm not sure if something is wrong, but lately I keep replying to
> individuals instead of the mailing list (or sometimes both). Did
> something change in our mailing servers? Or could it be that gmail
> changed its behavior perhaps?
>

[Scott Gray-3]

I just did it as well and it's super annoying.  I don't ever want to
directly reply to messages on our lists, at least without some manual
effort on my part.  Personally I couldn't care less about whether or not
some idealists think setting reply-to is harmful.

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 04:10, Aditya Sharma <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Taher,
>
> It's due to missing reply-to headers.
>
> See the mail thread *Reply-to address missing for dev and user mailing
> list* : https://markmail.org/message/l6z542dowhpl3t36
>
> Thanks and regards,
> Aditya Sharma
>
> On Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 9:10 PM Taher Alkhateeb <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > I'm not sure if something is wrong, but lately I keep replying to
> > individuals instead of the mailing list (or sometimes both). Did
> > something change in our mailing servers? Or could it be that gmail
> > changed its behavior perhaps?
> >
>

[Michael Brohl-3]

+1

In almost every case replies go to the list.

Regards,

Michael


Am 28.06.19 um 00:23 schrieb Scott Gray:

> I just did it as well and it's super annoying.  I don't ever want to
> directly reply to messages on our lists, at least without some manual
> effort on my part.  Personally I couldn't care less about whether or not
> some idealists think setting reply-to is harmful.
>
> On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 04:10, Aditya Sharma <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Taher,
>>
>> It's due to missing reply-to headers.
>>
>> See the mail thread *Reply-to address missing for dev and user mailing
>> list* : https://markmail.org/message/l6z542dowhpl3t36
>>
>> Thanks and regards,
>> Aditya Sharma
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 9:10 PM Taher Alkhateeb <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if something is wrong, but lately I keep replying to
>>> individuals instead of the mailing list (or sometimes both). Did
>>> something change in our mailing servers? Or could it be that gmail
>>> changed its behavior perhaps?
>>>

[Mathieu Lirzin]

Scott Gray <[hidden email]> writes:

> I just did it as well and it's super annoying.  I don't ever want to
> directly reply to messages on our lists, at least without some manual
> effort on my part.  Personally I couldn't care less about whether or not
> some idealists think setting reply-to is harmful.

Should I say then that I don't care about people who don't want to make
the effort of configuring and using an email client properly? Let us not
go that path and be respectful to each other.

This topic has nothing to do with “idealism”, it is just about adopting
some practical and safe conventions.

I acknowledge that your current habits makes things impractical for you,
since you were expecting "reply" to mean "reply to {list,group,all}" but
to me this is just confusing.

--
Mathieu Lirzin
GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761  070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37

[taher]

I don't even use a mail client. I use web interface and it does not work.
It's also annoying to have to configure mobile client, desktop client and
web. I prefer to add the headers back.

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 11:13 AM Mathieu Lirzin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Scott Gray <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> > I just did it as well and it's super annoying.  I don't ever want to
> > directly reply to messages on our lists, at least without some manual
> > effort on my part.  Personally I couldn't care less about whether or not
> > some idealists think setting reply-to is harmful.
>
> Should I say then that I don't care about people who don't want to make
> the effort of configuring and using an email client properly? Let us not
> go that path and be respectful to each other.
>
> This topic has nothing to do with “idealism”, it is just about adopting
> some practical and safe conventions.
>
> I acknowledge that your current habits makes things impractical for you,
> since you were expecting "reply" to mean "reply to {list,group,all}" but
> to me this is just confusing.
>
> --
> Mathieu Lirzin
> GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761  070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Le 28/06/2019 à 11:23, Taher Alkhateeb a écrit :
> I don't even use a mail client. I use web interface and it does not work.
> It's also annoying to have to configure mobile client, desktop client and
> web. I prefer to add the headers back.
Are we sure it was there ?

[Hannes Geist-2]

Hello,
i agree. I have filters moving ofbiz mailing list messages to a special folder.
I would very much like to contribute to the community one day, but for now I am submerged in my current ofbiz project and it feels like "spam" that mailing list messages started popping up in my main
folder about 1-2 months ago.
I don't want to read your fights over details, for now. I just want to stay informed / maybe find solutions that are not documented elsewhere yet.
Also, if people have to adapt every mail client there is to do it "correctly", you just loose developers with this attitude. I imagine people work on multiple projects and are in multiple mailing
lists and do not want to go the extra mile just for ofbiz.
Please return to the previous behavior, be practical. It's not like you're discussing state secrets here.
Best Regards
Hannes Geist

-----Original Message-----From: Taher Alkhateeb <[hidden email]>To: OFBiz development mailing list <[hidden email]>Subject: Re: weird behavior in reply latelyDate: Fri, 28 Jun 2019
12:23:50 +0300
I don't even use a mail client. I use web interface and it does not work.It's also annoying to have to configure mobile client, desktop client andweb. I prefer to add the headers back.
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 11:13 AM Mathieu Lirzin <[hidden email]>wrote:
Scott Gray <[hidden email]> writes:
I just did it as well and it's super annoying.  I don't ever want todirectly reply to messages on our lists, at least without some manualeffort on my part.  Personally I couldn't care less about
whether or notsome idealists think setting reply-to is harmful.
Should I say then that I don't care about people who don't want to makethe effort of configuring and using an email client properly? Let us notgo that path and be respectful to each other.
This topic has nothing to do with “idealism”, it is just about adoptingsome practical and safe conventions.
I acknowledge that your current habits makes things impractical for you,since you were expecting "reply" to mean "reply to {list,group,all}" butto me this is just confusing.
--Mathieu LirzinGPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761  070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37

[Jacques Le Roux]

Le 28/06/2019 à 11:32, Hannes Geist a écrit :
> Please return to the previous behavior,
Again, are we sure it was the case? Did someone investigate with Infra?

Jacques

[Scott Gray-3]

I didn't mean any disrespect, my apologies Mathieu.  My email was written
out of frustration that something worked well for many years and suddenly
changed for the worse (in my opinion).

Regards
Scott

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 at 20:13, Mathieu Lirzin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Scott Gray <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> > I just did it as well and it's super annoying.  I don't ever want to
> > directly reply to messages on our lists, at least without some manual
> > effort on my part.  Personally I couldn't care less about whether or not
> > some idealists think setting reply-to is harmful.
>
> Should I say then that I don't care about people who don't want to make
> the effort of configuring and using an email client properly? Let us not
> go that path and be respectful to each other.
>
> This topic has nothing to do with “idealism”, it is just about adopting
> some practical and safe conventions.
>
> I acknowledge that your current habits makes things impractical for you,
> since you were expecting "reply" to mean "reply to {list,group,all}" but
> to me this is just confusing.
>
> --
> Mathieu Lirzin
> GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761  070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37
>

[Deepak Dixit-5]

Hi Jacques,

Here are the two reference link one of from Jan 2019 and another one is a
recent one
https://lists.apache.org/api/source.lua/f9107f8ca9a17a2df731337fc3d9766ebad33467fea4393fb069552d@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
https://lists.apache.org/api/source.lua/218b191d66f303f19cc2e9f12f9f759d3a11a402bb749ba73b44d891@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E

Please check for reply-to, it was in the older thread but missing in the
recent one.
I think we need to talk to infra to investigate this issue.

Thanks & Regards
--
Deepak Dixit
ofbiz.apache.org


On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 3:04 PM Jacques Le Roux <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Le 28/06/2019 à 11:23, Taher Alkhateeb a écrit :
> > I don't even use a mail client. I use web interface and it does not work.
> > It's also annoying to have to configure mobile client, desktop client and
> > web. I prefer to add the headers back.
> Are we sure it was there ?
>

[Scott Gray-3]

Appears to me that it happened around the same time that Pierre asked infra
to add unsubscribe footers to list emails.  Was working late May, had
stopped by 4th June.

Regards
Scott

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 at 21:51, Deepak Dixit <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Jacques,
>
> Here are the two reference link one of from Jan 2019 and another one is a
> recent one
>
> https://lists.apache.org/api/source.lua/f9107f8ca9a17a2df731337fc3d9766ebad33467fea4393fb069552d@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>
> https://lists.apache.org/api/source.lua/218b191d66f303f19cc2e9f12f9f759d3a11a402bb749ba73b44d891@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>
> Please check for reply-to, it was in the older thread but missing in the
> recent one.
> I think we need to talk to infra to investigate this issue.
>
> Thanks & Regards
> --
> Deepak Dixit
> ofbiz.apache.org
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 3:04 PM Jacques Le Roux <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Le 28/06/2019 à 11:23, Taher Alkhateeb a écrit :
> > > I don't even use a mail client. I use web interface and it does not
> work.
> > > It's also annoying to have to configure mobile client, desktop client
> and
> > > web. I prefer to add the headers back.
> > Are we sure it was there ?
> >
>

[Deepak Dixit-5]

Reply-to header was there till may end.
It seems something went wrong after the revert process of the following
task.
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18553

Thanks & Regards
--
Deepak Dixit
ofbiz.apache.org


On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 3:21 PM Deepak Dixit <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Jacques,
>
> Here are the two reference link one of from Jan 2019 and another one is a
> recent one
>
> https://lists.apache.org/api/source.lua/f9107f8ca9a17a2df731337fc3d9766ebad33467fea4393fb069552d@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>
> https://lists.apache.org/api/source.lua/218b191d66f303f19cc2e9f12f9f759d3a11a402bb749ba73b44d891@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>
> Please check for reply-to, it was in the older thread but missing in the
> recent one.
> I think we need to talk to infra to investigate this issue.
>
> Thanks & Regards
> --
> Deepak Dixit
> ofbiz.apache.org
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 3:04 PM Jacques Le Roux <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Le 28/06/2019 à 11:23, Taher Alkhateeb a écrit :
>> > I don't even use a mail client. I use web interface and it does not
>> work.
>> > It's also annoying to have to configure mobile client, desktop client
>> and
>> > web. I prefer to add the headers back.
>> Are we sure it was there ?
>>
>

[Jacques Le Roux]

Thanks Deepak,

It makes sense indeed and Pierre could apologise :/

The question is should we vote?

So far it all depends on me and my -0.2 added to Paul's -0.8 after Mathieu convinced me that it would be better do to otherwise.

If Mathieu does not want to use his veto, I'll not apply mine. It was like that for years and it seems everybody was happy, including Mathieu, Paul
and I, we never complained.

Would that be a lazy consensus and a happy (but hot in some places) world?

Jacques

Le 28/06/2019 à 11:59, Deepak Dixit a écrit :

> Reply-to header was there till may end.
> It seems something went wrong after the revert process of the following
> task.
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18553
>
> Thanks & Regards
> --
> Deepak Dixit
> ofbiz.apache.org
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 3:21 PM Deepak Dixit <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jacques,
>>
>> Here are the two reference link one of from Jan 2019 and another one is a
>> recent one
>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/api/source.lua/f9107f8ca9a17a2df731337fc3d9766ebad33467fea4393fb069552d@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/api/source.lua/218b191d66f303f19cc2e9f12f9f759d3a11a402bb749ba73b44d891@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>>
>> Please check for reply-to, it was in the older thread but missing in the
>> recent one.
>> I think we need to talk to infra to investigate this issue.
>>
>> Thanks & Regards
>> --
>> Deepak Dixit
>> ofbiz.apache.org
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 3:04 PM Jacques Le Roux <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Le 28/06/2019 à 11:23, Taher Alkhateeb a écrit :
>>>> I don't even use a mail client. I use web interface and it does not
>>> work.
>>>> It's also annoying to have to configure mobile client, desktop client
>>> and
>>>> web. I prefer to add the headers back.
>>> Are we sure it was there ?
>>>

[Deepak Dixit-5]

I think we should ask infra to set it as it was.
I agree everybody was happy with it.

Thanks & Regards
--
Deepak Dixit
ofbiz.apache.org


On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 5:41 PM Jacques Le Roux <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks Deepak,
>
> It makes sense indeed and Pierre could apologise :/
>
> The question is should we vote?
>
> So far it all depends on me and my -0.2 added to Paul's -0.8 after Mathieu
> convinced me that it would be better do to otherwise.
>
> If Mathieu does not want to use his veto, I'll not apply mine. It was like
> that for years and it seems everybody was happy, including Mathieu, Paul
> and I, we never complained.
>
> Would that be a lazy consensus and a happy (but hot in some places) world?
>
> Jacques
>
> Le 28/06/2019 à 11:59, Deepak Dixit a écrit :
> > Reply-to header was there till may end.
> > It seems something went wrong after the revert process of the following
> > task.
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18553
> >
> > Thanks & Regards
> > --
> > Deepak Dixit
> > ofbiz.apache.org
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 3:21 PM Deepak Dixit <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Jacques,
> >>
> >> Here are the two reference link one of from Jan 2019 and another one is
> a
> >> recent one
> >>
> >>
> https://lists.apache.org/api/source.lua/f9107f8ca9a17a2df731337fc3d9766ebad33467fea4393fb069552d@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
> >>
> >>
> https://lists.apache.org/api/source.lua/218b191d66f303f19cc2e9f12f9f759d3a11a402bb749ba73b44d891@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
> >>
> >> Please check for reply-to, it was in the older thread but missing in the
> >> recent one.
> >> I think we need to talk to infra to investigate this issue.
> >>
> >> Thanks & Regards
> >> --
> >> Deepak Dixit
> >> ofbiz.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 3:04 PM Jacques Le Roux <
> >> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Le 28/06/2019 à 11:23, Taher Alkhateeb a écrit :
> >>>> I don't even use a mail client. I use web interface and it does not
> >>> work.
> >>>> It's also annoying to have to configure mobile client, desktop client
> >>> and
> >>>> web. I prefer to add the headers back.
> >>> Are we sure it was there ?
> >>>
>

[Scott Gray-3]

Yeah I don't see any need to vote or discuss going back to the behavior
everyone was used to for the past decade and was changed by accident.

Regards
Scott

On Sat, 29 Jun 2019, 00:49 Deepak Dixit, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think we should ask infra to set it as it was.
> I agree everybody was happy with it.
>
> Thanks & Regards
> --
> Deepak Dixit
> ofbiz.apache.org
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 5:41 PM Jacques Le Roux <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Thanks Deepak,
> >
> > It makes sense indeed and Pierre could apologise :/
> >
> > The question is should we vote?
> >
> > So far it all depends on me and my -0.2 added to Paul's -0.8 after
> Mathieu
> > convinced me that it would be better do to otherwise.
> >
> > If Mathieu does not want to use his veto, I'll not apply mine. It was
> like
> > that for years and it seems everybody was happy, including Mathieu, Paul
> > and I, we never complained.
> >
> > Would that be a lazy consensus and a happy (but hot in some places)
> world?
> >
> > Jacques
> >
> > Le 28/06/2019 à 11:59, Deepak Dixit a écrit :
> > > Reply-to header was there till may end.
> > > It seems something went wrong after the revert process of the following
> > > task.
> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18553
> > >
> > > Thanks & Regards
> > > --
> > > Deepak Dixit
> > > ofbiz.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 3:21 PM Deepak Dixit <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Jacques,
> > >>
> > >> Here are the two reference link one of from Jan 2019 and another one
> is
> > a
> > >> recent one
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/api/source.lua/f9107f8ca9a17a2df731337fc3d9766ebad33467fea4393fb069552d@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/api/source.lua/218b191d66f303f19cc2e9f12f9f759d3a11a402bb749ba73b44d891@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
> > >>
> > >> Please check for reply-to, it was in the older thread but missing in
> the
> > >> recent one.
> > >> I think we need to talk to infra to investigate this issue.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks & Regards
> > >> --
> > >> Deepak Dixit
> > >> ofbiz.apache.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 3:04 PM Jacques Le Roux <
> > >> [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Le 28/06/2019 à 11:23, Taher Alkhateeb a écrit :
> > >>>> I don't even use a mail client. I use web interface and it does not
> > >>> work.
> > >>>> It's also annoying to have to configure mobile client, desktop
> client
> > >>> and
> > >>>> web. I prefer to add the headers back.
> > >>> Are we sure it was there ?
> > >>>
> >
>

[Mathieu Lirzin]

Hello Jacques

Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:

> The question is should we vote?
>
> So far it all depends on me and my -0.2 added to Paul's -0.8 after
> Mathieu convinced me that it would be better do to otherwise.
>
> If Mathieu does not want to use his veto, I'll not apply mine. It was
> like that for years and it seems everybody was happy, including
> Mathieu, Paul and I, we never complained.

I am not familiar with Apache voting policies, However according to [1]
it seems that people are not expected to use their veto for procedural
issues.

Most people in this conversation have already expressed their opinion in
favour of the ‘reply-to’ munging and have not been convinced by my
arguments, so I don't think we need to formally vote.

[1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html

--
Mathieu Lirzin
GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761  070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37

[Mathieu Lirzin]

Hello Deepak,

Deepak Dixit <[hidden email]> writes:

> I think we should ask infra to set it as it was.
> I agree everybody was happy with it.

There are some nuances between not complaining and being happy with
something. :-)

--
Mathieu Lirzin
GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761  070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37

[Jacques Le Roux]

Le 30/06/2019 à 16:08, Mathieu Lirzin a écrit :

> Hello Jacques
>
> Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> The question is should we vote?
>>
>> So far it all depends on me and my -0.2 added to Paul's -0.8 after
>> Mathieu convinced me that it would be better do to otherwise.
>>
>> If Mathieu does not want to use his veto, I'll not apply mine. It was
>> like that for years and it seems everybody was happy, including
>> Mathieu, Paul and I, we never complained.
> I am not familiar with Apache voting policies, However according to [1]
> it seems that people are not expected to use their veto for procedural
> issues.
>
> Most people in this conversation have already expressed their opinion in
> favour of the ‘reply-to’ munging and have not been convinced by my
> arguments, so I don't think we need to formally vote.
>
> [1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html

That's simpler indeed. We could argue that it's code and a vote could be done. But it's not OFBiz code so I I guess it would be far fetched and most
would not agree.

Anyway, I'll continue to use Reply-to-list, and we will not receive unwanted copies, it's OK with me.

Jacques

[adityasharma]

I went through the post shared by Mathieu, Jacques along with this post[1]
that shows both the sides vividly and it all makes sense.
Different people may have different preferences for it but we have to
choose what favors the community.
I can see many instances on lists where users replied to the personal email
and we cannot really restrict anyone to use reply or reply-all.
I will create a Jira at infra so that previous arrangement is restored.

1. https://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-admin/node11.html

Thanks and regards,
Aditya Sharma

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 8:23 PM Jacques Le Roux <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Le 30/06/2019 à 16:08, Mathieu Lirzin a écrit :
> > Hello Jacques
> >
> > Jacques Le Roux <[hidden email]> writes:
> >
> >> The question is should we vote?
> >>
> >> So far it all depends on me and my -0.2 added to Paul's -0.8 after
> >> Mathieu convinced me that it would be better do to otherwise.
> >>
> >> If Mathieu does not want to use his veto, I'll not apply mine. It was
> >> like that for years and it seems everybody was happy, including
> >> Mathieu, Paul and I, we never complained.
> > I am not familiar with Apache voting policies, However according to [1]
> > it seems that people are not expected to use their veto for procedural
> > issues.
> >
> > Most people in this conversation have already expressed their opinion in
> > favour of the ‘reply-to’ munging and have not been convinced by my
> > arguments, so I don't think we need to formally vote.
> >
> > [1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
>
> That's simpler indeed. We could argue that it's code and a vote could be
> done. But it's not OFBiz code so I I guess it would be far fetched and most
> would not agree.
>
> Anyway, I'll continue to use Reply-to-list, and we will not receive
> unwanted copies, it's OK with me.
>
> Jacques
>
>