Apache OFBiz Community Building Tour - Mid-western USA, April 2009

[jonesde]

As a follow-on to the April release branch, and to help encourage  
community growth and participation for Apache OFBiz, I'm planning a  
tour of the Mid-western United States. As part of this tour I'd like  
to visit with individuals and organizations who are current and  
prospective users, contributors, and others involved with or  
interested in OFBiz.

In these visits I will be available to spend 1-3 hours with you and  
answer questions about Apache OFBiz and how you can use it most  
effectively. I would be happy to speak with individuals or as many  
people from your organization as you would like.

If you would like to better leverage opportunities to collaborate with  
others in the community or there are specific things you'd like to see  
in OFBiz, or be able to do with OFBiz, this is a great time to chat  
about it. Also if you'd like general business level or technical help  
with the software I'm happy to go over those sorts of things as well.

I am doing this as the PMC Chair of Apache Open For Business with the  
intent of helping grow the community and not in my role as an officer  
of Hotwax Media. If you are interested in the services of Hotwax I'll  
be happy to briefly answer questions and refer you to the Hotwax sales  
people.

Below is the rough schedule I have in mind and the general areas I  
plan to be in. I'll be changing it as needed to accommodate what  
people are available for. If you're around these areas and available  
around these times, please let me know!

17 April (Fri): Omaha NE, Des Moines IA, Kansas City MO
20 April (Mon): St. Louis MO
22 April (Wed): Indianapolis IN, Louisville KY (maybe Chicago IL)
24 April (Fri): Memphis TN, Nashville TN
27 April (Mon): Dallas TX, Oklahoma City OK

Please contact me directly by email if you're interested in a visit.  
If you know of someone else who might be interested in a visit, please  
make an introduction and if they are interested I'm happy to play  
along. My schedule is flexible on this trip so morning, lunch and  
evening visits along with normal business hours are fine.

There is no fee for this, but I won't refuse a free meal if offered.  
I'm traveling in a 40' motorhome, so hints for parking somewhat nearby  
are also appreciated.

I am planning to do this in other areas in the near future, but don't  
have firm plans yet. The next likely area will be the north-western  
USA in July (around the time and place of OSCON which I'll be speaking  
at on July 23rd in San Jose, CA).

-David

[Ean Schuessler]

Hi David. I would be interested in putting together a talk with some of our customers here for sure.

----- "David E Jones" wrote:

> As a follow-on to the April release branch, and to help encourage
> community growth and participation for Apache OFBiz, I'm planning a
> tour of the Mid-western United States. As part of this tour I'd like
> to visit with individuals and organizations who are current and
> prospective users, contributors, and others involved with or
> interested in OFBiz.
> In these visits I will be available to spend 1-3 hours with you and
> answer questions about Apache OFBiz and how you can use it most
> effectively. I would be happy to speak with individuals or as many
> people from your organization as you would like.
> If you would like to better leverage opportunities to collaborate with
> others in the community or there are specific things you'd like to see
> in OFBiz, or be able to do with OFBiz, this is a great time to chat
> about it. Also if you'd like general business level or technical help
> with the software I'm happy to go over those sorts of things as well.
> I am doing this as the PMC Chair of Apache Open For Business with the
> intent of helping grow the community and not in my role as an officer
> of Hotwax Media. If you are interested in the services of Hotwax I'll
> be happy to briefly answer questions and refer you to the Hotwax sales
> people.
> Below is the rough schedule I have in mind and the general areas I
> plan to be in. I'll be changing it as needed to accommodate what
> people are available for. If you're around these areas and available
> around these times, please let me know!
> 17 April (Fri): Omaha NE, Des Moines IA, Kansas City MO
> 20 April (Mon): St. Louis MO
> 22 April (Wed): Indianapolis IN, Louisville KY (maybe Chicago IL)
> 24 April (Fri): Memphis TN, Nashville TN
> 27 April (Mon): Dallas TX, Oklahoma City OK
> Please contact me directly by email if you're interested in a visit.
> If you know of someone else who might be interested in a visit, please
> make an introduction and if they are interested I'm happy to play
> along. My schedule is flexible on this trip so morning, lunch and
> evening visits along with normal business hours are fine.
> There is no fee for this, but I won't refuse a free meal if offered.
> I'm traveling in a 40' motorhome, so hints for parking somewhat nearby
> are also appreciated.
> I am planning to do this in other areas in the near future, but don't
> have firm plans yet. The next likely area will be the north-western
> USA in July (around the time and place of OSCON which I'll be speaking
> at on July 23rd in San Jose, CA).

--
Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com
[hidden email] - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315

[David E Jones-3]

That'd be great Ean. I've been wanting to visit the Brainfood lair for  
a while, and that was part of my motivation for including Dallas.

BTW, kudos and thanks for the design work you guys did for the new  
OFBiz site. That was a great "collaboration among competitors."

-David


On Apr 13, 2009, at 12:33 PM, Ean Schuessler wrote:

> Hi David. I would be interested in putting together a talk with some  
> of our customers here for sure.
>
> ----- "David E Jones" wrote:
>> As a follow-on to the April release branch, and to help encourage
>> community growth and participation for Apache OFBiz, I'm planning a
>> tour of the Mid-western United States. As part of this tour I'd like
>> to visit with individuals and organizations who are current and
>> prospective users, contributors, and others involved with or
>> interested in OFBiz.
>> In these visits I will be available to spend 1-3 hours with you and
>> answer questions about Apache OFBiz and how you can use it most
>> effectively. I would be happy to speak with individuals or as many
>> people from your organization as you would like.
>> If you would like to better leverage opportunities to collaborate  
>> with
>> others in the community or there are specific things you'd like to  
>> see
>> in OFBiz, or be able to do with OFBiz, this is a great time to chat
>> about it. Also if you'd like general business level or technical help
>> with the software I'm happy to go over those sorts of things as well.
>> I am doing this as the PMC Chair of Apache Open For Business with the
>> intent of helping grow the community and not in my role as an officer
>> of Hotwax Media. If you are interested in the services of Hotwax I'll
>> be happy to briefly answer questions and refer you to the Hotwax  
>> sales
>> people.
>> Below is the rough schedule I have in mind and the general areas I
>> plan to be in. I'll be changing it as needed to accommodate what
>> people are available for. If you're around these areas and available
>> around these times, please let me know!
>> 17 April (Fri): Omaha NE, Des Moines IA, Kansas City MO
>> 20 April (Mon): St. Louis MO
>> 22 April (Wed): Indianapolis IN, Louisville KY (maybe Chicago IL)
>> 24 April (Fri): Memphis TN, Nashville TN
>> 27 April (Mon): Dallas TX, Oklahoma City OK
>> Please contact me directly by email if you're interested in a visit.
>> If you know of someone else who might be interested in a visit,  
>> please
>> make an introduction and if they are interested I'm happy to play
>> along. My schedule is flexible on this trip so morning, lunch and
>> evening visits along with normal business hours are fine.
>> There is no fee for this, but I won't refuse a free meal if offered.
>> I'm traveling in a 40' motorhome, so hints for parking somewhat  
>> nearby
>> are also appreciated.
>> I am planning to do this in other areas in the near future, but don't
>> have firm plans yet. The next likely area will be the north-western
>> USA in July (around the time and place of OSCON which I'll be  
>> speaking
>> at on July 23rd in San Jose, CA).
>
> --
> Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com
> [hidden email] - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315

[Jacques Le Roux]

"collaboration among competitors." that sounds really good to me... Fair-play !

Thank you guys (both Brainfood and HWM)

Jacques

From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>

> That'd be great Ean. I've been wanting to visit the Brainfood lair for  
> a while, and that was part of my motivation for including Dallas.
>
> BTW, kudos and thanks for the design work you guys did for the new  
> OFBiz site. That was a great "collaboration among competitors."
>
> -David
>
>
> On Apr 13, 2009, at 12:33 PM, Ean Schuessler wrote:
>
>> Hi David. I would be interested in putting together a talk with some  
>> of our customers here for sure.
>>
>> ----- "David E Jones" wrote:
>>> As a follow-on to the April release branch, and to help encourage
>>> community growth and participation for Apache OFBiz, I'm planning a
>>> tour of the Mid-western United States. As part of this tour I'd like
>>> to visit with individuals and organizations who are current and
>>> prospective users, contributors, and others involved with or
>>> interested in OFBiz.
>>> In these visits I will be available to spend 1-3 hours with you and
>>> answer questions about Apache OFBiz and how you can use it most
>>> effectively. I would be happy to speak with individuals or as many
>>> people from your organization as you would like.
>>> If you would like to better leverage opportunities to collaborate  
>>> with
>>> others in the community or there are specific things you'd like to  
>>> see
>>> in OFBiz, or be able to do with OFBiz, this is a great time to chat
>>> about it. Also if you'd like general business level or technical help
>>> with the software I'm happy to go over those sorts of things as well.
>>> I am doing this as the PMC Chair of Apache Open For Business with the
>>> intent of helping grow the community and not in my role as an officer
>>> of Hotwax Media. If you are interested in the services of Hotwax I'll
>>> be happy to briefly answer questions and refer you to the Hotwax  
>>> sales
>>> people.
>>> Below is the rough schedule I have in mind and the general areas I
>>> plan to be in. I'll be changing it as needed to accommodate what
>>> people are available for. If you're around these areas and available
>>> around these times, please let me know!
>>> 17 April (Fri): Omaha NE, Des Moines IA, Kansas City MO
>>> 20 April (Mon): St. Louis MO
>>> 22 April (Wed): Indianapolis IN, Louisville KY (maybe Chicago IL)
>>> 24 April (Fri): Memphis TN, Nashville TN
>>> 27 April (Mon): Dallas TX, Oklahoma City OK
>>> Please contact me directly by email if you're interested in a visit.
>>> If you know of someone else who might be interested in a visit,  
>>> please
>>> make an introduction and if they are interested I'm happy to play
>>> along. My schedule is flexible on this trip so morning, lunch and
>>> evening visits along with normal business hours are fine.
>>> There is no fee for this, but I won't refuse a free meal if offered.
>>> I'm traveling in a 40' motorhome, so hints for parking somewhat  
>>> nearby
>>> are also appreciated.
>>> I am planning to do this in other areas in the near future, but don't
>>> have firm plans yet. The next likely area will be the north-western
>>> USA in July (around the time and place of OSCON which I'll be  
>>> speaking
>>> at on July 23rd in San Jose, CA).
>>
>> --
>> Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com
>> [hidden email] - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315
>

[Ean Schuessler]

Absolutely. Success for the project hinges on a successful *group* of integrators. If anyone has seen "A Beautiful Mind", the part where they discuss picking up girls really sums up what we are trying to do.

----- "Jacques Le Roux" wrote:
> "collaboration among competitors." that sounds really good to me... Fair-play !
> Thank you guys (both Brainfood and HWM)

--
Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com
[hidden email] - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315

[Jacques Le Roux]

I will try to see the film... one day...

Jacques

From: "Ean Schuessler" <[hidden email]>

> Absolutely. Success for the project hinges on a successful *group* of integrators. If anyone has seen "A Beautiful Mind", the part
> where they discuss picking up girls really sums up what we are trying to do.
>
> ----- "Jacques Le Roux" wrote:
>> "collaboration among competitors." that sounds really good to me... Fair-play !
>> Thank you guys (both Brainfood and HWM)
>
> --
> Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com
> [hidden email] - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315
>

[David E Jones-3]

Yeah, that's an interesting social dynamic. Thanks for mentioning that  
Ean.

If I understand right how that applies to us as collaborating service  
providers the basic idea is that we don't all go after the same  
client, or more generally that the situation will be better for all of  
us if we voluntarily back off from a prospect if we find out that they  
are further along with another service provider. Of course the client  
will pursue who they will, but it doesn't do any of us any good to  
fight over clients or subvert the efforts of other service providers.

In that particular scene there was the "super-attractive" prospect  
that everyone wanted to go for, and the point was that if all of the  
guys went for her then chances are none of them would "land the deal"  
as it were (she could only pick one, and chances are she'd get upset  
and pick none of them, and what's worse is then the other ladies  
wouldn't want to be the second pick so they wouldn't accept the guys  
either). Only by collaborating and deciding to ignore her would the  
guys have a higher hit/miss ratio with the others.

It'll be interesting if that situation ever comes up literally in this  
community. In other words, if there is ever a very visible client that  
we all know is contacting various service providers and we all go for  
that client and ignore other prospects. That would be a bad thing  
overall, and is certainly a danger!

A more likely scenario, and one that I know has happened a lot, is the  
2-3 service providers will be competing fiercely and sometimes  
unfairly for a single client. It's natural that a client would talk to  
multiple service providers before choosing, but when we as service  
providers cross the line it does a lot of general harm. One thing I  
consider to be crossing the line are things like looking at client  
lists of other service providers and trying to contact those companies  
and ask them to switch over. There are probably lots of others that  
are shady and that may or may not cross the line.

We can all put specific effort into playing nicely, and that is  
probably the main point of this. For example, if a company contacts  
you and you know they are working with another service provider then a  
chat with that other service provider is a good gesture... if it is  
okay with the company of course (ie better to ask the company before  
telling the other service provider that the company has approached you).

Anyway, these situations are often messy and I've heard a number of  
stories over years, usually from one side of the situation and  
sometimes from both sides. I suppose another part of the lesson from  
the scene from "A Beautiful Mind" is that even if someone does step in  
and steal your thunder unfairly with a client, and it looks like the  
client will be choosing them, the best thing to do is back off ASAP  
(preferably before other of your prospects notice too much) and go  
after other prospects more.

Of course, one really nice thing that simplifies (and in a way  
complicates...) our situation more is that no client expects a service  
provider to be exclusive. If you neglect a client and don't take care  
of them chances are they will walk, regardless of the cost to them.  
However, if you mention to a client that you're also seeing another  
client, then it's not a big deal and except for a handful of  
unrealistic clients is usually expected and a good thing (it shows you  
have experience, you're not totally dependent on income from them, you  
have the resources to scale up and down for them as needed, etc, etc).

Sorry for the long email. This is a pretty important topic as part of  
the strategy for OFBiz. The whole point is to collaborate in a non-
commercial way to create and maintain things that are useful in our  
various commercial endeavors. Sometimes those commercial endeavors  
collide because of this commonality, though in reality the industry  
OFBiz applies to is absolutely massive and I don't think we touch even  
0.5% of it... probably not even 0.05% of it... so there's no use in  
fighting over prospects, or crying over lost prospects either.

On the other hand, I think this sort of community-driven software that  
is open to commercial use and extension is massively scalable and  
someday we could see OFBiz directly or indirectly used for... say...  
10% of the enterprise software industry. Personally I don't plan to  
change careers until that happens... :)

-David


On Apr 14, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Ean Schuessler wrote:

> Absolutely. Success for the project hinges on a successful *group*  
> of integrators. If anyone has seen "A Beautiful Mind", the part  
> where they discuss picking up girls really sums up what we are  
> trying to do.
>
> ----- "Jacques Le Roux" wrote:
>> "collaboration among competitors." that sounds really good to me...  
>> Fair-play !
>> Thank you guys (both Brainfood and HWM)
>
> --
> Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com
> [hidden email] - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315

[Scott Gray-2]

+1, I have a vision of an OFBiz installation in every home.

- Scott Gates ;-)

On 16/04/2009, at 8:23 AM, David E Jones wrote:

> On the other hand, I think this sort of community-driven software  
> that is open to commercial use and extension is massively scalable  
> and someday we could see OFBiz directly or indirectly used for...  
> say... 10% of the enterprise software industry. Personally I don't  
> plan to change careers until that happens... :)

[Ashish Vijaywargiya-5]

Inline :

Scott Gray wrote:
> +1, I have a vision of an OFBiz installation in every home.
Same feelings in my heart as well man ..... :-).
>
> - Scott Gates ;-)

I like it Mr. Future Gates. :-)

--
Ashish

>
> On 16/04/2009, at 8:23 AM, David E Jones wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, I think this sort of community-driven software
>> that is open to commercial use and extension is massively scalable
>> and someday we could see OFBiz directly or indirectly used for...
>> say... 10% of the enterprise software industry. Personally I don't
>> plan to change careers until that happens... :)
>

[Shi Yusen]

在 2009-04-15三的 14:23 -0600，David E Jones写道：
> In that particular scene there was the "super-attractive" prospect  
> that everyone wanted to go for, and the point was that if all of the  
> guys went for her then chances are none of them would "land the deal"  
> as it were (she could only pick one, and chances are she'd get upset  
> and pick none of them, and what's worse is then the other ladies  
> wouldn't want to be the second pick so they wouldn't accept the guys  
> either). Only by collaborating and deciding to ignore her would the  
> guys have a higher hit/miss ratio with the others.

Oh my god, "A Beautiful Mind".

Cheers

[Jacques Le Roux]

Thanks for the detailled explanation. Very useful for people who don't see the film !

Jacques

From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>

>
> Yeah, that's an interesting social dynamic. Thanks for mentioning that  
> Ean.
>
> If I understand right how that applies to us as collaborating service  
> providers the basic idea is that we don't all go after the same  
> client, or more generally that the situation will be better for all of  
> us if we voluntarily back off from a prospect if we find out that they  
> are further along with another service provider. Of course the client  
> will pursue who they will, but it doesn't do any of us any good to  
> fight over clients or subvert the efforts of other service providers.
>
> In that particular scene there was the "super-attractive" prospect  
> that everyone wanted to go for, and the point was that if all of the  
> guys went for her then chances are none of them would "land the deal"  
> as it were (she could only pick one, and chances are she'd get upset  
> and pick none of them, and what's worse is then the other ladies  
> wouldn't want to be the second pick so they wouldn't accept the guys  
> either). Only by collaborating and deciding to ignore her would the  
> guys have a higher hit/miss ratio with the others.
>
> It'll be interesting if that situation ever comes up literally in this  
> community. In other words, if there is ever a very visible client that  
> we all know is contacting various service providers and we all go for  
> that client and ignore other prospects. That would be a bad thing  
> overall, and is certainly a danger!
>
> A more likely scenario, and one that I know has happened a lot, is the  
> 2-3 service providers will be competing fiercely and sometimes  
> unfairly for a single client. It's natural that a client would talk to  
> multiple service providers before choosing, but when we as service  
> providers cross the line it does a lot of general harm. One thing I  
> consider to be crossing the line are things like looking at client  
> lists of other service providers and trying to contact those companies  
> and ask them to switch over. There are probably lots of others that  
> are shady and that may or may not cross the line.
>
> We can all put specific effort into playing nicely, and that is  
> probably the main point of this. For example, if a company contacts  
> you and you know they are working with another service provider then a  
> chat with that other service provider is a good gesture... if it is  
> okay with the company of course (ie better to ask the company before  
> telling the other service provider that the company has approached you).
>
> Anyway, these situations are often messy and I've heard a number of  
> stories over years, usually from one side of the situation and  
> sometimes from both sides. I suppose another part of the lesson from  
> the scene from "A Beautiful Mind" is that even if someone does step in  
> and steal your thunder unfairly with a client, and it looks like the  
> client will be choosing them, the best thing to do is back off ASAP  
> (preferably before other of your prospects notice too much) and go  
> after other prospects more.
>
> Of course, one really nice thing that simplifies (and in a way  
> complicates...) our situation more is that no client expects a service  
> provider to be exclusive. If you neglect a client and don't take care  
> of them chances are they will walk, regardless of the cost to them.  
> However, if you mention to a client that you're also seeing another  
> client, then it's not a big deal and except for a handful of  
> unrealistic clients is usually expected and a good thing (it shows you  
> have experience, you're not totally dependent on income from them, you  
> have the resources to scale up and down for them as needed, etc, etc).
>
> Sorry for the long email. This is a pretty important topic as part of  
> the strategy for OFBiz. The whole point is to collaborate in a non-
> commercial way to create and maintain things that are useful in our  
> various commercial endeavors. Sometimes those commercial endeavors  
> collide because of this commonality, though in reality the industry  
> OFBiz applies to is absolutely massive and I don't think we touch even  
> 0.5% of it... probably not even 0.05% of it... so there's no use in  
> fighting over prospects, or crying over lost prospects either.
>
> On the other hand, I think this sort of community-driven software that  
> is open to commercial use and extension is massively scalable and  
> someday we could see OFBiz directly or indirectly used for... say...  
> 10% of the enterprise software industry. Personally I don't plan to  
> change careers until that happens... :)
>
> -David
>
>
> On Apr 14, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Ean Schuessler wrote:
>
>> Absolutely. Success for the project hinges on a successful *group*  
>> of integrators. If anyone has seen "A Beautiful Mind", the part  
>> where they discuss picking up girls really sums up what we are  
>> trying to do.
>>
>> ----- "Jacques Le Roux" wrote:
>>> "collaboration among competitors." that sounds really good to me...  
>>> Fair-play !
>>> Thank you guys (both Brainfood and HWM)
>>
>> --
>> Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com
>> [hidden email] - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315
>

[Ean Schuessler]

Thanks David, you've definitely helped to clarify my vague comments.

Here is the scene from the movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srgdg5tgPJk 

Beyond even the situation of our competition with one and other, however, I am thinking of our competition with other Free Software ERP systems. Ironically, establishing an equilibrium of players where none of us "wins" may cause OFBiz to dominate the larger game of establishing the ERP standard. Most of our Free Software competitors represent a single organization that is trying to use "community software" as a competitive edge against the proprietary players. We are moving towards a model with the primary goal of sharing value between a diverse set of implementors without a single dominant group. That is a big, and perhaps critical, difference.

So "getting the girl" is "establishing the standard for open ERP". If we each try to be the single victor then everyone goes home empty handed but if everyone accepts a slightly smaller prize then we all succeed. Finding a way to formalize this proposition is entirely another matter but I think its important.

An interesting book on this topic is "The Evolution of Cooperation" by Axelrod. The wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evolution_of_Cooperation is also good reading.

----- "Jacques Le Roux" wrote:

> Thanks for the detailled explanation. Very useful for people who don't see the film !
> Jacques
> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
> >
> > Yeah, that's an interesting social dynamic. Thanks for mentioning that
> > Ean.
> >
> > If I understand right how that applies to us as collaborating service
> > providers the basic idea is that we don't all go after the same
> > client, or more generally that the situation will be better for all of
> > us if we voluntarily back off from a prospect if we find out that they
> > are further along with another service provider. Of course the client
> > will pursue who they will, but it doesn't do any of us any good to
> > fight over clients or subvert the efforts of other service providers.
> >
> > In that particular scene there was the "super-attractive" prospect
> > that everyone wanted to go for, and the point was that if all of the
> > guys went for her then chances are none of them would "land the deal"
> > as it were (she could only pick one, and chances are she'd get upset
> > and pick none of them, and what's worse is then the other ladies
> > wouldn't want to be the second pick so they wouldn't accept the guys
> > either). Only by collaborating and deciding to ignore her would the
> > guys have a higher hit/miss ratio with the others.
> >
> > It'll be interesting if that situation ever comes up literally in this
> > community. In other words, if there is ever a very visible client that
> > we all know is contacting various service providers and we all go for
> > that client and ignore other prospects. That would be a bad thing
> > overall, and is certainly a danger!
> >
> > A more likely scenario, and one that I know has happened a lot, is the
> > 2-3 service providers will be competing fiercely and sometimes
> > unfairly for a single client. It's natural that a client would talk to
> > multiple service providers before choosing, but when we as service
> > providers cross the line it does a lot of general harm. One thing I
> > consider to be crossing the line are things like looking at client
> > lists of other service providers and trying to contact those companies
> > and ask them to switch over. There are probably lots of others that
> > are shady and that may or may not cross the line.
> >
> > We can all put specific effort into playing nicely, and that is
> > probably the main point of this. For example, if a company contacts
> > you and you know they are working with another service provider then a
> > chat with that other service provider is a good gesture... if it is
> > okay with the company of course (ie better to ask the company before
> > telling the other service provider that the company has approached you).
> >
> > Anyway, these situations are often messy and I've heard a number of
> > stories over years, usually from one side of the situation and
> > sometimes from both sides. I suppose another part of the lesson from
> > the scene from "A Beautiful Mind" is that even if someone does step in
> > and steal your thunder unfairly with a client, and it looks like the
> > client will be choosing them, the best thing to do is back off ASAP
> > (preferably before other of your prospects notice too much) and go
> > after other prospects more.
> >
> > Of course, one really nice thing that simplifies (and in a way
> > complicates...) our situation more is that no client expects a service
> > provider to be exclusive. If you neglect a client and don't take care
> > of them chances are they will walk, regardless of the cost to them.
> > However, if you mention to a client that you're also seeing another
> > client, then it's not a big deal and except for a handful of
> > unrealistic clients is usually expected and a good thing (it shows you
> > have experience, you're not totally dependent on income from them, you
> > have the resources to scale up and down for them as needed, etc, etc).
> >
> > Sorry for the long email. This is a pretty important topic as part of
> > the strategy for OFBiz. The whole point is to collaborate in a non-
> > commercial way to create and maintain things that are useful in our
> > various commercial endeavors. Sometimes those commercial endeavors
> > collide because of this commonality, though in reality the industry
> > OFBiz applies to is absolutely massive and I don't think we touch even
> > 0.5% of it... probably not even 0.05% of it... so there's no use in
> > fighting over prospects, or crying over lost prospects either.
> >
> > On the other hand, I think this sort of community-driven software that
> > is open to commercial use and extension is massively scalable and
> > someday we could see OFBiz directly or indirectly used for... say...
> > 10% of the enterprise software industry. Personally I don't plan to
> > change careers until that happens... :)
> >
> > -David
> >
> >
> > On Apr 14, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Ean Schuessler wrote:
> >
> >> Absolutely. Success for the project hinges on a successful *group*
> >> of integrators. If anyone has seen "A Beautiful Mind", the part
> >> where they discuss picking up girls really sums up what we are
> >> trying to do.
> >>
> >> ----- "Jacques Le Roux" wrote:
> >>> "collaboration among competitors." that sounds really good to me...
> >>> Fair-play !
> >>> Thank you guys (both Brainfood and HWM)
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com
> >> [hidden email] - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315
> >

--
Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com
[hidden email] - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315

[David E Jones-3]

That's a great way to put it Ean... the ultimate opportunity is to  
compete as a group with alternatives (both commercial, wannabe open  
source (aka "professional open source", "commercial open source" or  
whatever), and community-based open source should such a competitor  
arise). That's where the real opportunity is.

-David


On Apr 16, 2009, at 11:41 AM, Ean Schuessler wrote:

> Thanks David, you've definitely helped to clarify my vague comments.
>
> Here is the scene from the movie:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srgdg5tgPJk
>
> Beyond even the situation of our competition with one and other,  
> however, I am thinking of our competition with other Free Software  
> ERP systems. Ironically, establishing an equilibrium of players  
> where none of us "wins" may cause OFBiz to dominate the larger game  
> of establishing the ERP standard. Most of our Free Software  
> competitors represent a single organization that is trying to use  
> "community software" as a competitive edge against the proprietary  
> players. We are moving towards a model with the primary goal of  
> sharing value between a diverse set of implementors without a single  
> dominant group. That is a big, and perhaps critical, difference.
>
> So "getting the girl" is "establishing the standard for open ERP".  
> If we each try to be the single victor then everyone goes home empty  
> handed but if everyone accepts a slightly smaller prize then we all  
> succeed. Finding a way to formalize this proposition is entirely  
> another matter but I think its important.
>
> An interesting book on this topic is "The Evolution of Cooperation"  
> by Axelrod. The wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evolution_of_Cooperation 
>  is also good reading.
>
> ----- "Jacques Le Roux" wrote:
>> Thanks for the detailled explanation. Very useful for people who  
>> don't see the film !
>> Jacques
>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>> Yeah, that's an interesting social dynamic. Thanks for mentioning  
>>> that
>>> Ean.
>>>
>>> If I understand right how that applies to us as collaborating  
>>> service
>>> providers the basic idea is that we don't all go after the same
>>> client, or more generally that the situation will be better for  
>>> all of
>>> us if we voluntarily back off from a prospect if we find out that  
>>> they
>>> are further along with another service provider. Of course the  
>>> client
>>> will pursue who they will, but it doesn't do any of us any good to
>>> fight over clients or subvert the efforts of other service  
>>> providers.
>>>
>>> In that particular scene there was the "super-attractive" prospect
>>> that everyone wanted to go for, and the point was that if all of the
>>> guys went for her then chances are none of them would "land the  
>>> deal"
>>> as it were (she could only pick one, and chances are she'd get upset
>>> and pick none of them, and what's worse is then the other ladies
>>> wouldn't want to be the second pick so they wouldn't accept the guys
>>> either). Only by collaborating and deciding to ignore her would the
>>> guys have a higher hit/miss ratio with the others.
>>>
>>> It'll be interesting if that situation ever comes up literally in  
>>> this
>>> community. In other words, if there is ever a very visible client  
>>> that
>>> we all know is contacting various service providers and we all go  
>>> for
>>> that client and ignore other prospects. That would be a bad thing
>>> overall, and is certainly a danger!
>>>
>>> A more likely scenario, and one that I know has happened a lot, is  
>>> the
>>> 2-3 service providers will be competing fiercely and sometimes
>>> unfairly for a single client. It's natural that a client would  
>>> talk to
>>> multiple service providers before choosing, but when we as service
>>> providers cross the line it does a lot of general harm. One thing I
>>> consider to be crossing the line are things like looking at client
>>> lists of other service providers and trying to contact those  
>>> companies
>>> and ask them to switch over. There are probably lots of others that
>>> are shady and that may or may not cross the line.
>>>
>>> We can all put specific effort into playing nicely, and that is
>>> probably the main point of this. For example, if a company contacts
>>> you and you know they are working with another service provider  
>>> then a
>>> chat with that other service provider is a good gesture... if it is
>>> okay with the company of course (ie better to ask the company before
>>> telling the other service provider that the company has approached  
>>> you).
>>>
>>> Anyway, these situations are often messy and I've heard a number of
>>> stories over years, usually from one side of the situation and
>>> sometimes from both sides. I suppose another part of the lesson from
>>> the scene from "A Beautiful Mind" is that even if someone does  
>>> step in
>>> and steal your thunder unfairly with a client, and it looks like the
>>> client will be choosing them, the best thing to do is back off ASAP
>>> (preferably before other of your prospects notice too much) and go
>>> after other prospects more.
>>>
>>> Of course, one really nice thing that simplifies (and in a way
>>> complicates...) our situation more is that no client expects a  
>>> service
>>> provider to be exclusive. If you neglect a client and don't take  
>>> care
>>> of them chances are they will walk, regardless of the cost to them.
>>> However, if you mention to a client that you're also seeing another
>>> client, then it's not a big deal and except for a handful of
>>> unrealistic clients is usually expected and a good thing (it shows  
>>> you
>>> have experience, you're not totally dependent on income from them,  
>>> you
>>> have the resources to scale up and down for them as needed, etc,  
>>> etc).
>>>
>>> Sorry for the long email. This is a pretty important topic as part  
>>> of
>>> the strategy for OFBiz. The whole point is to collaborate in a non-
>>> commercial way to create and maintain things that are useful in our
>>> various commercial endeavors. Sometimes those commercial endeavors
>>> collide because of this commonality, though in reality the industry
>>> OFBiz applies to is absolutely massive and I don't think we touch  
>>> even
>>> 0.5% of it... probably not even 0.05% of it... so there's no use in
>>> fighting over prospects, or crying over lost prospects either.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, I think this sort of community-driven software  
>>> that
>>> is open to commercial use and extension is massively scalable and
>>> someday we could see OFBiz directly or indirectly used for... say...
>>> 10% of the enterprise software industry. Personally I don't plan to
>>> change careers until that happens... :)
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 14, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Ean Schuessler wrote:
>>>
>>>> Absolutely. Success for the project hinges on a successful *group*
>>>> of integrators. If anyone has seen "A Beautiful Mind", the part
>>>> where they discuss picking up girls really sums up what we are
>>>> trying to do.
>>>>
>>>> ----- "Jacques Le Roux" wrote:
>>>>> "collaboration among competitors." that sounds really good to  
>>>>> me...
>>>>> Fair-play !
>>>>> Thank you guys (both Brainfood and HWM)
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com
>>>> [hidden email] - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315
>>>
>
> --
> Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com
> [hidden email] - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315