Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
 
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On Mar 7, 2010, at 6:51 AM, Tim Ruppert wrote: > It IS news when there is a new tutorial out there. It is not news when you are doing marketing. That sounds like a reasonable place to draw the line. For instance, I don't put my blog messages up there when they're not going to directly help users - just like Wikipedia, only the facts. We haven't put up one message about any of our twitter feeds, social networking angles, new websites, all promotion stuff. What Hans put in there is straight up promotion. What does that have to do with news? This is the most strange definition of news that I've ever heard... Maybe this would be helpful: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/news -David |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:08 PM, David E Jones wrote: > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 6:51 AM, Tim Ruppert wrote: > >> It IS news when there is a new tutorial out there. It is not news when you are doing marketing. That sounds like a reasonable place to draw the line. For instance, I don't put my blog messages up there when they're not going to directly help users - just like Wikipedia, only the facts. We haven't put up one message about any of our twitter feeds, social networking angles, new websites, all promotion stuff. What Hans put in there is straight up promotion. > > What does that have to do with news? This is the most strange definition of news that I've ever heard... > > Maybe this would be helpful: > > http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/news > > -David > That's true but some time ago we decided to merge the "blogs" section with the "in the news" section... in fact at that time we could have changed it to "news" or similar... but if we don't like what is happening now we can change the decision and remove the links that you don't like. Jacopo |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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In reply to this post by Jacques Le Roux
What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a priority for people? I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly subjective and usually just a nice way of saying "revenge". -David On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. > >> This is a domain name: twitter.com >> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz > > Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help and I'm > happy with that. > >> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and threatening to contact higher level ASF admins before discussing it on >> the private list is bad form IMO. > > Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been easier if you have kept them in your answer. Notably the name+logo > on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I wrote this message. I must say that in an effort to not put all on > this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea. > >> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider websites absolutely falls within the realm of nominative fair use IMO. >> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for OFBiz if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and display the logo? > > Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else about that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz > >> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a minor issue and can easily be rectified without scaremongering by >> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in question. > > If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was the reason of my message. When you want justice, you can't hide > facts, even minor ones. > >> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we do not have the resources to do an adequate job of it ourselves. >> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and actively "police" is what is written at the bottom of the ASF >> guideline document: > "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow any third party to claim any association with the Apache > Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval or support by ASF for any third party products or services." > > Yes that's the point, I totally agree > >> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of sending out threatening emails. > > If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me > >> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list for one week? Do you really need to spark another one right now? >> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad. > > Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about lookin "bad", I just want justice. > > Jacques > > Regards > Scott > > On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> Scott, >> >> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is irrelevant in my message? >> >> Jacques >> >> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and I really would prefer it if you kept your thoughts to the >> private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring people away from marketing the project for us. >> >> Thank you >> Scott >> >> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >>> Hey guys, >>> >>> This could be so easy :/ >>> >>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us to send him a demand. >>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account. >>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send >>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked you to send >>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans. It's a >>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on feeding the tweets as you already suggested. >>> >>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also shows it on >>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and similar) >>> graphic logos") >>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply also to >>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax >>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?) >>> >>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted >>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that if it's >>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ >>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if all >>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong also as >>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other cases?) >>> >>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the rules, if you >>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty! >>> >>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so much time >>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party (ie not >>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts they >>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being to show) and nobody will win anything. There are rules, >>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard? >>> >>> Jacques >>> >>> >>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]> >>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for all service providers to do this - so please let's not >>>> keep doing this stuff. >>>> >>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it at all, would be to enhance the service providers page on >>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full page, linked from the service provider page, where people >>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own website is for, but I'm all for enhancing everyone's >>>> ability to get the word out. >>>> >>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Ruppert >>>> -- >>>> Tim Ruppert >>>> HotWax Media >>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>> >>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>> >>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares they can push it. >>>>> >>>>> This is news: >>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an enduser >>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. >>>>> A link to your home page is not: >>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a> >>>>> >>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Scott >>>>> >>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [hidden email] wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Author: hansbak >>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>> New Revision: 919905 >>>>>> >>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev >>>>>> Log: >>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news offerings. >>>>>> >>>>>> Modified: >>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>> >>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff >>>>>> === === === ===================================================================== >>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) >>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ >>>>>> >>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> >>>>>> <ul> >>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow >>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, >>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a></li> >>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ " >>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF export</a> on <a >>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ " >>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV export</a> on <a >>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ " >>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list screen</a> on <a >>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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In reply to this post by BJ Freeman
Actually most stuff that is done without discussion on this list is simply not discussed. The private list is primarily for discussing more sensitive topics, like inviting new committers and PMC members. That is why when people ask about such things or seem to be interested in becoming a committer or PMC member that I invite them to send a request to the [hidden email] mailing list. -David On Mar 7, 2010, at 12:00 PM, BJ Freeman wrote: > that must be for all the stuff that gets in with no > discussion on this list, is done. > also I doubt new developers read this list since most post on the user > list. > lastly I don't think what jacques is saying is something that should > not the said out in the open. > > > ========================= > BJ Freeman > http://bjfreeman.elance.com > Strategic Power Office with Supplier Automation <http://www.businessesnetwork.com/automation/viewforum.php?f=93> > Specialtymarket.com <http://www.specialtymarket.com/> > > Systems Integrator-- Glad to Assist > > Chat Y! messenger: bjfr33man > <http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=1237480&locale=en_US&trk=tab_pro> > > > Scott Gray sent the following on 3/7/2010 5:45 AM: >> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and I really would prefer it if you kept your thoughts to the private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring people away from marketing the project for us. >> >> Thank you >> Scott >> >> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >>> Hey guys, >>> >>> This could be so easy :/ >>> >>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us to send him a demand. >>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account. >>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked you to send me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans. It's a *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on feeding the tweets as you already suggested. >>> >>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also shows it on the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and similar) graphic logos") >>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply also to >>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax >>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?) >>> >>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted >>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that if it's not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ >>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if all commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong also as long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other cases?) >>> >>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the rules, if you see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty! >>> >>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so much time on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party (ie not HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts they will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being to show) and nobody will win anything. There are rules, why not simply follow them, is that so hard? >>> >>> Jacques >>> >>> >>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]> >>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for all service providers to do this - so please let's not keep doing this stuff. >>>> >>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it at all, would be to enhance the service providers page on the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full page, linked from the service provider page, where people can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own website is for, but I'm all for enhancing everyone's ability to get the word out. >>>> >>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Ruppert >>>> -- >>>> Tim Ruppert >>>> HotWax Media >>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>> >>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>> >>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares they can push it. >>>>> >>>>> This is news: >>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. >>>>> A link to your home page is not: >>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a> >>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Scott >>>>> >>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [hidden email] wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Author: hansbak >>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>> New Revision: 919905 >>>>>> >>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev >>>>>> Log: >>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news offerings. >>>>>> >>>>>> Modified: >>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>> >>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff >>>>>> === === === ===================================================================== >>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) >>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ >>>>>> >>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> >>>>>> <ul> >>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a></li> >>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ " target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial – Implementing a Product PDF export</a> on <a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ " target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial – Implementing a Product CSV export</a> on <a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ " target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial – Enhancing the Product list screen</a> on <a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> > > |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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In reply to this post by Jacopo Cappellato-4
On Mar 7, 2010, at 12:25 PM, Jacopo Cappellato wrote: > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:08 PM, David E Jones wrote: > >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 6:51 AM, Tim Ruppert wrote: >> >>> It IS news when there is a new tutorial out there. It is not news when you are doing marketing. That sounds like a reasonable place to draw the line. For instance, I don't put my blog messages up there when they're not going to directly help users - just like Wikipedia, only the facts. We haven't put up one message about any of our twitter feeds, social networking angles, new websites, all promotion stuff. What Hans put in there is straight up promotion. >> >> What does that have to do with news? This is the most strange definition of news that I've ever heard... >> >> Maybe this would be helpful: >> >> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/news >> >> -David >> > > That's true but some time ago we decided to merge the "blogs" section with the "in the news" section... in fact at that time we could have changed it to "news" or similar... but if we don't like what is happening now we can change the decision and remove the links that you don't like. That's not quite what I meant. IMO we can do (for the most part) whatever we want on the home page, and by we I mean the community acting together (moderated by the PMC). What I have a problem with here is the attempt by Tim to justify one behavior and condemn the behavior of others by coming up with some weird definition of the word "news", and saying we should draw the line where it benefits him and causes problems for others. If we're going to discuss this, let's talk plainly about what our goals our and see where they conflict, not try to justify and condemn based on BS semantics and "right fighting". -David |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
Administrator
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In reply to this post by David E. Jones-2
I have any revenge in this. Justice is "follow the rules". Who make the rules is another problem.
Jacques From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]> > What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a priority for people? > > I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly subjective and usually just a nice way of saying "revenge". > > -David > > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >> >>> This is a domain name: twitter.com >>> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >> >> Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help and >> I'm >> happy with that. >> >>> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and threatening to contact higher level ASF admins before discussing it >>> on >>> the private list is bad form IMO. >> >> Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been easier if you have kept them in your answer. Notably the >> name+logo >> on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I wrote this message. I must say that in an effort to not put all on >> this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea. >> >>> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider websites absolutely falls within the realm of nominative fair use >>> IMO. >>> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for OFBiz if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and display the >>> logo? >> >> Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else about that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >> >>> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a minor issue and can easily be rectified without scaremongering >>> by >>> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in question. >> >> If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was the reason of my message. When you want justice, you can't hide >> facts, even minor ones. >> >>> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we do not have the resources to do an adequate job of it >>> ourselves. >>> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and actively "police" is what is written at the bottom of the ASF >>> guideline document: >> "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow any third party to claim any association with the Apache >> Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval or support by ASF for any third party products or services." >> >> Yes that's the point, I totally agree >> >>> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of sending out threatening emails. >> >> If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me >> >>> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list for one week? Do you really need to spark another one right >>> now? >>> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad. >> >> Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about lookin "bad", I just want justice. >> >> Jacques >> >> Regards >> Scott >> >> On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >>> Scott, >>> >>> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is irrelevant in my message? >>> >>> Jacques >>> >>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >>> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and I really would prefer it if you kept your thoughts to >>> the >>> private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring people away from marketing the project for us. >>> >>> Thank you >>> Scott >>> >>> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>> >>>> Hey guys, >>>> >>>> This could be so easy :/ >>>> >>>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us to send him a demand. >>>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account. >>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >>>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send >>>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked you to >>>> send >>>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans. It's a >>>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on feeding the tweets as you already suggested. >>>> >>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also shows it on >>>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and similar) >>>> graphic logos") >>>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply also to >>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax >>>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?) >>>> >>>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted >>>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that if it's >>>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ >>>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if all >>>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong also >>>> as >>>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other cases?) >>>> >>>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the rules, if you >>>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty! >>>> >>>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so much >>>> time >>>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party (ie not >>>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts they >>>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being to show) and nobody will win anything. There are rules, >>>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard? >>>> >>>> Jacques >>>> >>>> >>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]> >>>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for all service providers to do this - so please let's not >>>>> keep doing this stuff. >>>>> >>>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it at all, would be to enhance the service providers page >>>>> on >>>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full page, linked from the service provider page, where people >>>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own website is for, but I'm all for enhancing everyone's >>>>> ability to get the word out. >>>>> >>>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Ruppert >>>>> -- >>>>> Tim Ruppert >>>>> HotWax Media >>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>> >>>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares they can push it. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is news: >>>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an enduser >>>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. >>>>>> A link to your home page is not: >>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an >>>>>>> example.</a> >>>>>> >>>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Scott >>>>>> >>>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [hidden email] wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Author: hansbak >>>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>> New Revision: 919905 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev >>>>>>> Log: >>>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news offerings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Modified: >>>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff >>>>>>> === === === ===================================================================== >>>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) >>>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> >>>>>>> <ul> >>>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow >>>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, >>>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a></li> >>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ " >>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF export</a> on <a >>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ " >>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV export</a> on <a >>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ " >>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list screen</a> on <a >>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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In reply to this post by David E. Jones-2
On Mar 7, 2010, at 12:56 PM, David E Jones wrote: > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 12:25 PM, Jacopo Cappellato wrote: > >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:08 PM, David E Jones wrote: >> >>> >>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 6:51 AM, Tim Ruppert wrote: >>> >>>> It IS news when there is a new tutorial out there. It is not news when you are doing marketing. That sounds like a reasonable place to draw the line. For instance, I don't put my blog messages up there when they're not going to directly help users - just like Wikipedia, only the facts. We haven't put up one message about any of our twitter feeds, social networking angles, new websites, all promotion stuff. What Hans put in there is straight up promotion. >>> >>> What does that have to do with news? This is the most strange definition of news that I've ever heard... >>> >>> Maybe this would be helpful: >>> >>> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/news >>> >>> -David >>> >> >> That's true but some time ago we decided to merge the "blogs" section with the "in the news" section... in fact at that time we could have changed it to "news" or similar... but if we don't like what is happening now we can change the decision and remove the links that you don't like. > > That's not quite what I meant. IMO we can do (for the most part) whatever we want on the home page, and by we I mean the community acting together (moderated by the PMC). > > What I have a problem with here is the attempt by Tim to justify one behavior and condemn the behavior of others by coming up with some weird definition of the word "news", and saying we should draw the line where it benefits him and causes problems for others. If we're going to discuss this, let's talk plainly about what our goals our and see where they conflict, not try to justify and condemn based on BS semantics and "right fighting". > > -David > I was only using hte definition that we have used in the past - blogs and things on the wire - not marketing your own stuff- calling it OFBiz and then putting a link to your own site. Are you kidding me Jones? Now you think this is ok too? I've seen everything ... Cheers, Ruppert |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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On Mar 7, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote: > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 12:56 PM, David E Jones wrote: > >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 12:25 PM, Jacopo Cappellato wrote: >> >>> >>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:08 PM, David E Jones wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 6:51 AM, Tim Ruppert wrote: >>>> >>>>> It IS news when there is a new tutorial out there. It is not news when you are doing marketing. That sounds like a reasonable place to draw the line. For instance, I don't put my blog messages up there when they're not going to directly help users - just like Wikipedia, only the facts. We haven't put up one message about any of our twitter feeds, social networking angles, new websites, all promotion stuff. What Hans put in there is straight up promotion. >>>> >>>> What does that have to do with news? This is the most strange definition of news that I've ever heard... >>>> >>>> Maybe this would be helpful: >>>> >>>> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/news >>>> >>>> -David >>>> >>> >>> That's true but some time ago we decided to merge the "blogs" section with the "in the news" section... in fact at that time we could have changed it to "news" or similar... but if we don't like what is happening now we can change the decision and remove the links that you don't like. >> >> That's not quite what I meant. IMO we can do (for the most part) whatever we want on the home page, and by we I mean the community acting together (moderated by the PMC). >> >> What I have a problem with here is the attempt by Tim to justify one behavior and condemn the behavior of others by coming up with some weird definition of the word "news", and saying we should draw the line where it benefits him and causes problems for others. If we're going to discuss this, let's talk plainly about what our goals our and see where they conflict, not try to justify and condemn based on BS semantics and "right fighting". >> >> -David >> > > I was only using hte definition that we have used in the past - blogs and things on the wire - not marketing your own stuff- calling it OFBiz and then putting a link to your own site. Are you kidding me Jones? Now you think this is ok too? I've seen everything ... I guess I missed something, where did I say anything about that? -David |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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On Mar 7, 2010, at 3:55 PM, David E Jones wrote: > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote: > >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 12:56 PM, David E Jones wrote: >> >>> >>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 12:25 PM, Jacopo Cappellato wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:08 PM, David E Jones wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 6:51 AM, Tim Ruppert wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> It IS news when there is a new tutorial out there. It is not news when you are doing marketing. That sounds like a reasonable place to draw the line. For instance, I don't put my blog messages up there when they're not going to directly help users - just like Wikipedia, only the facts. We haven't put up one message about any of our twitter feeds, social networking angles, new websites, all promotion stuff. What Hans put in there is straight up promotion. >>>>> >>>>> What does that have to do with news? This is the most strange definition of news that I've ever heard... >>>>> >>>>> Maybe this would be helpful: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/news >>>>> >>>>> -David >>>>> >>>> >>>> That's true but some time ago we decided to merge the "blogs" section with the "in the news" section... in fact at that time we could have changed it to "news" or similar... but if we don't like what is happening now we can change the decision and remove the links that you don't like. >>> >>> That's not quite what I meant. IMO we can do (for the most part) whatever we want on the home page, and by we I mean the community acting together (moderated by the PMC). >>> >>> What I have a problem with here is the attempt by Tim to justify one behavior and condemn the behavior of others by coming up with some weird definition of the word "news", and saying we should draw the line where it benefits him and causes problems for others. If we're going to discuss this, let's talk plainly about what our goals our and see where they conflict, not try to justify and condemn based on BS semantics and "right fighting". >>> >>> -David >>> >> >> I was only using hte definition that we have used in the past - blogs and things on the wire - not marketing your own stuff- calling it OFBiz and then putting a link to your own site. Are you kidding me Jones? Now you think this is ok too? I've seen everything ... > > I guess I missed something, where did I say anything about that? > > -David > My definition of news was malformed and used too many words - just got a little verbose -Jacopo said it much more clearly, Seriously though David - it wasn't malicious or right fighting. The reason that we're even talking about this is because someone put a link into the "news" - which was previously defined - to my knowledge - as external people talking about OFBiz and internal people blogging about it - which had a link to a Twitter account that is yet to be vetted as project based and then a link to their own site - which definitely manipulates people's ideas about what is going on. This shouldn't be there IMO. I removed the only blog post that HotWax had there that I thought was questionable, but I'm happy to remove all of ours and put them somewhere else if this isn't the news that we want up there. I guess you didn't say that what was there was right - you just didn't like my style - which upon further reflection - could've been clarified. So, let's get back to what I jumped to - is this in debate "news" link an ok one or not? I think it's not, should be removed, and we should further define rules around the places on the screen so that this doesn't continue to happen (the link in the header, the link now in the news, etc). Cheers, Ruppert |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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In reply to this post by Jacques Le Roux
Hmmmm... given the misunderstanding of other things I've written (seems to be from an incorrect guess at motives and goals for what I write), I guess we'll see how this goes. Maybe in advance I should say that my point is that "Justice" is not an effective way to get people to do, or not do, something. The type of justice you're talking about is not following the rules, it is trying to get other people to follow the rules. Unfortunately justice efforts are usually not about restitution and are instead about punishment. And what is the point of that if not some form of revenge? People may feel better about being mean or harming others because the others have broken some rule, but I'd hardly say that justifies the meanness and harm, even if we do call that "justice". If there is a bad law do you feel an obligation to follow it, or do you feel justified in harming others because it allows you to? If so then you're in a group with most people in the world who think that they can blame their actions on those who make the rules or tell them to do (or not do) something. Back to the point... how much use has that been here? Has it helped us all get along and collaborate to produce better software? -David On Mar 7, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > I have any revenge in this. Justice is "follow the rules". Who make the rules is another problem. > > Jacques > > From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]> >> What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a priority for people? >> >> I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly subjective and usually just a nice way of saying "revenge". >> >> -David >> >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >>> >>>> This is a domain name: twitter.com >>>> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >>> >>> Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help and I'm >>> happy with that. >>> >>>> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and threatening to contact higher level ASF admins before discussing it on >>>> the private list is bad form IMO. >>> >>> Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been easier if you have kept them in your answer. Notably the name+logo >>> on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I wrote this message. I must say that in an effort to not put all on >>> this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea. >>> >>>> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider websites absolutely falls within the realm of nominative fair use IMO. >>>> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for OFBiz if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and display the logo? >>> >>> Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else about that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >>> >>>> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a minor issue and can easily be rectified without scaremongering by >>>> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in question. >>> >>> If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was the reason of my message. When you want justice, you can't hide >>> facts, even minor ones. >>> >>>> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we do not have the resources to do an adequate job of it ourselves. >>>> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and actively "police" is what is written at the bottom of the ASF >>>> guideline document: >>> "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow any third party to claim any association with the Apache >>> Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval or support by ASF for any third party products or services." >>> >>> Yes that's the point, I totally agree >>> >>>> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of sending out threatening emails. >>> >>> If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me >>> >>>> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list for one week? Do you really need to spark another one right now? >>>> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad. >>> >>> Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about lookin "bad", I just want justice. >>> >>> Jacques >>> >>> Regards >>> Scott >>> >>> On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>> >>>> Scott, >>>> >>>> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is irrelevant in my message? >>>> >>>> Jacques >>>> >>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >>>> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and I really would prefer it if you kept your thoughts to the >>>> private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring people away from marketing the project for us. >>>> >>>> Thank you >>>> Scott >>>> >>>> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey guys, >>>>> >>>>> This could be so easy :/ >>>>> >>>>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us to send him a demand. >>>>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account. >>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >>>>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send >>>>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked you to send >>>>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans. It's a >>>>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on feeding the tweets as you already suggested. >>>>> >>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also shows it on >>>>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and similar) >>>>> graphic logos") >>>>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply also to >>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax >>>>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?) >>>>> >>>>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted >>>>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that if it's >>>>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ >>>>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if all >>>>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong also as >>>>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other cases?) >>>>> >>>>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the rules, if you >>>>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty! >>>>> >>>>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so much time >>>>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party (ie not >>>>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts they >>>>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being to show) and nobody will win anything. There are rules, >>>>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard? >>>>> >>>>> Jacques >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]> >>>>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for all service providers to do this - so please let's not >>>>>> keep doing this stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it at all, would be to enhance the service providers page on >>>>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full page, linked from the service provider page, where people >>>>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own website is for, but I'm all for enhancing everyone's >>>>>> ability to get the word out. >>>>>> >>>>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Ruppert >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Tim Ruppert >>>>>> HotWax Media >>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>> >>>>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares they can push it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is news: >>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an enduser >>>>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. >>>>>>> A link to your home page is not: >>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [hidden email] wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Author: hansbak >>>>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>>> New Revision: 919905 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev >>>>>>>> Log: >>>>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news offerings. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Modified: >>>>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff >>>>>>>> === === === ===================================================================== >>>>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) >>>>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> >>>>>>>> <ul> >>>>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow >>>>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, >>>>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a></li> >>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ " >>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF export</a> on <a >>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ " >>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV export</a> on <a >>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ " >>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list screen</a> on <a >>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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My real question would be why is it always "hurting" people to bring up that the rules as they have been defined have been broken again? What was done wasn't correct, people mentioned it nicely, but then that wasn't ok - and it goes from there.
The simple process of someone breaking the rules or stretching the truth SHOULD be able to be brought up - and instead of defensiveness, it should be greeted with, "Man, I'm so sorry, let's look into that together." Instead, an innocuous request to revert something that doesn't follow the PMC guidelines - or anyone's for that matter - was met with resistance and a passive aggressive comment meant to say that the original committer felt attacked. I think you need to start there - figuring out ways to get people to not be defensive in the face of someone looking at their work - then you can get back to building up the process of having people work together. When someone cries wolf every time anyone else mentions anything about the work - instead of taking the initiative to engage in the dialog - then that's where this slippery slope starts. It really shouldn't go downhill when someone questioning a commit - that should happen MORE often IMO - and the project would be better for it. Cheers, Ruppert On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:16 PM, David E Jones wrote: > > Hmmmm... given the misunderstanding of other things I've written (seems to be from an incorrect guess at motives and goals for what I write), I guess we'll see how this goes. Maybe in advance I should say that my point is that "Justice" is not an effective way to get people to do, or not do, something. > > The type of justice you're talking about is not following the rules, it is trying to get other people to follow the rules. Unfortunately justice efforts are usually not about restitution and are instead about punishment. And what is the point of that if not some form of revenge? > > People may feel better about being mean or harming others because the others have broken some rule, but I'd hardly say that justifies the meanness and harm, even if we do call that "justice". If there is a bad law do you feel an obligation to follow it, or do you feel justified in harming others because it allows you to? If so then you're in a group with most people in the world who think that they can blame their actions on those who make the rules or tell them to do (or not do) something. > > Back to the point... how much use has that been here? Has it helped us all get along and collaborate to produce better software? > > -David > > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> I have any revenge in this. Justice is "follow the rules". Who make the rules is another problem. >> >> Jacques >> >> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]> >>> What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a priority for people? >>> >>> I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly subjective and usually just a nice way of saying "revenge". >>> >>> -David >>> >>> >>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>> >>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >>>> >>>>> This is a domain name: twitter.com >>>>> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >>>> >>>> Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help and I'm >>>> happy with that. >>>> >>>>> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and threatening to contact higher level ASF admins before discussing it on >>>>> the private list is bad form IMO. >>>> >>>> Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been easier if you have kept them in your answer. Notably the name+logo >>>> on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I wrote this message. I must say that in an effort to not put all on >>>> this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea. >>>> >>>>> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider websites absolutely falls within the realm of nominative fair use IMO. >>>>> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for OFBiz if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and display the logo? >>>> >>>> Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else about that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >>>> >>>>> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a minor issue and can easily be rectified without scaremongering by >>>>> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in question. >>>> >>>> If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was the reason of my message. When you want justice, you can't hide >>>> facts, even minor ones. >>>> >>>>> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we do not have the resources to do an adequate job of it ourselves. >>>>> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and actively "police" is what is written at the bottom of the ASF >>>>> guideline document: >>>> "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow any third party to claim any association with the Apache >>>> Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval or support by ASF for any third party products or services." >>>> >>>> Yes that's the point, I totally agree >>>> >>>>> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of sending out threatening emails. >>>> >>>> If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me >>>> >>>>> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list for one week? Do you really need to spark another one right now? >>>>> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad. >>>> >>>> Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about lookin "bad", I just want justice. >>>> >>>> Jacques >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Scott >>>> >>>> On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>> >>>>> Scott, >>>>> >>>>> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is irrelevant in my message? >>>>> >>>>> Jacques >>>>> >>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >>>>> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and I really would prefer it if you kept your thoughts to the >>>>> private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring people away from marketing the project for us. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you >>>>> Scott >>>>> >>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hey guys, >>>>>> >>>>>> This could be so easy :/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us to send him a demand. >>>>>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account. >>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >>>>>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send >>>>>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked you to send >>>>>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans. It's a >>>>>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on feeding the tweets as you already suggested. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also shows it on >>>>>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and similar) >>>>>> graphic logos") >>>>>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply also to >>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax >>>>>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?) >>>>>> >>>>>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted >>>>>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that if it's >>>>>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ >>>>>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if all >>>>>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong also as >>>>>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other cases?) >>>>>> >>>>>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the rules, if you >>>>>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty! >>>>>> >>>>>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so much time >>>>>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party (ie not >>>>>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts they >>>>>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being to show) and nobody will win anything. There are rules, >>>>>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jacques >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]> >>>>>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for all service providers to do this - so please let's not >>>>>>> keep doing this stuff. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it at all, would be to enhance the service providers page on >>>>>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full page, linked from the service provider page, where people >>>>>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own website is for, but I'm all for enhancing everyone's >>>>>>> ability to get the word out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Ruppert >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Tim Ruppert >>>>>>> HotWax Media >>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>>>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares they can push it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is news: >>>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an enduser >>>>>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. >>>>>>>> A link to your home page is not: >>>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [hidden email] wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Author: hansbak >>>>>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>>>> New Revision: 919905 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev >>>>>>>>> Log: >>>>>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news offerings. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Modified: >>>>>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff >>>>>>>>> === === === ===================================================================== >>>>>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) >>>>>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> >>>>>>>>> <ul> >>>>>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow >>>>>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, >>>>>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a></li> >>>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ " >>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF export</a> on <a >>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ " >>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV export</a> on <a >>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ " >>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list screen</a> on <a >>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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In reply to this post by Ruth Hoffman-2
I'm constantly amazed by how little you know about how Apache projects operate.
http://www.apache.org/ contains an absolute a lot of information and more than anything I suggest you read the pages under "How it works". I can't imagine why you would possibly be enjoying this thread but I guess some people are just that way inclined. Regards Scott On 7/03/2010, at 11:04 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi Scott: > What private list? I thought this was a transparent process that everyone should have access to. > BTW, you guys are a real "hoot". I'm enjoying every bit of this thread. > > Regards, > Ruth > ---------------------------------------------------- > Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" > [hidden email] > > Scott Gray wrote: >> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and I really would prefer it if you kept your thoughts to the private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring people away from marketing the project for us. >> >> Thank you >> Scott >> >> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >> >>> Hey guys, >>> >>> This could be so easy :/ >>> >>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us to send him a demand. >>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account. >>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked you to send me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans. It's a *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on feeding the tweets as you already suggested. >>> >>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also shows it on the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and similar) graphic logos") >>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply also to >>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax >>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?) >>> >>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted >>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that if it's not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ >>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if all commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong also as long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other cases?) >>> >>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the rules, if you see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty! >>> >>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so much time on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party (ie not HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts they will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being to show) and nobody will win anything. There are rules, why not simply follow them, is that so hard? >>> >>> Jacques >>> >>> >>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]> >>> >>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for all service providers to do this - so please let's not keep doing this stuff. >>>> >>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it at all, would be to enhance the service providers page on the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full page, linked from the service provider page, where people can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own website is for, but I'm all for enhancing everyone's ability to get the word out. >>>> >>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Ruppert >>>> -- >>>> Tim Ruppert >>>> HotWax Media >>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>> >>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>> >>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares they can push it. >>>>> >>>>> This is news: >>>>> >>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. >>>>>> >>>>> A link to your home page is not: >>>>> >>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a> >>>>>> >>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Scott >>>>> >>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [hidden email] wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Author: hansbak >>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>> New Revision: 919905 >>>>>> >>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev >>>>>> Log: >>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news offerings. >>>>>> >>>>>> Modified: >>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>> >>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff >>>>>> === === === ===================================================================== >>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) >>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ >>>>>> >>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> >>>>>> <ul> >>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a></li> >>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ " target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial – Implementing a Product PDF export</a> on <a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ " target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial – Implementing a Product CSV export</a> on <a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ " target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial – Enhancing the Product list screen</a> on <a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> >> |
smime.p7s (3K)
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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In reply to this post by Tim Ruppert
I agree with you Tim, effective giving and responding to feedback is vitally important to successful collaboration and all of us working together to build a strong community and make good software. Scott's response to my recent multi-tenant changes is a great example of such feedback, and hopefully I'll be able to respond to that feedback in a helpful way. That is a bit different than the issue here, which is that Jacques seemed to be trying to get people to do certain things because of rules. Confronting others on bad behavior or breaking rules is a good thing IMO, but this was going beyond that with a specific interpretation of the rules that didn't seem to fit and specific remedies to the indiscretions that also seemed somewhat unhelpful (ie getting into legal interpretations and remedies that are not consistent with what others understood of laws and ASF policies), and then going even beyond that to threaten an appeal to greater authority and possible legal action if the demands were not met, calling it all "justice". And yeah, I have a problem with that, hence my message to confront Jacques for that behavior. Stepping to back to really effective communication and problem solving, if I were to push anything I guess it would be to read the book "Simpleology" by Mark Joyner. That book is full of excellent stuff about problem solving and collaborating with others. While I'm plugging books I can't help but mention "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig. It's a fun read and does the best job I've ever seen of dealing with the sometimes maddening topics of quality and subject/object distinction (some key elements of clear and useful thinking). Okay, that's only related to this topic so much, but I had to mention it. This makes me want to sit down and do some reading (or go for a walk and do some listening), but I guess I'm having too much fun redesigning the foundation of my career (which has been cathartic and refreshing, sort of a Moqui ball like experience). -David On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote: > My real question would be why is it always "hurting" people to bring up that the rules as they have been defined have been broken again? What was done wasn't correct, people mentioned it nicely, but then that wasn't ok - and it goes from there. > > The simple process of someone breaking the rules or stretching the truth SHOULD be able to be brought up - and instead of defensiveness, it should be greeted with, "Man, I'm so sorry, let's look into that together." Instead, an innocuous request to revert something that doesn't follow the PMC guidelines - or anyone's for that matter - was met with resistance and a passive aggressive comment meant to say that the original committer felt attacked. > > I think you need to start there - figuring out ways to get people to not be defensive in the face of someone looking at their work - then you can get back to building up the process of having people work together. When someone cries wolf every time anyone else mentions anything about the work - instead of taking the initiative to engage in the dialog - then that's where this slippery slope starts. It really shouldn't go downhill when someone questioning a commit - that should happen MORE often IMO - and the project would be better for it. > > Cheers, > Ruppert > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:16 PM, David E Jones wrote: > >> >> Hmmmm... given the misunderstanding of other things I've written (seems to be from an incorrect guess at motives and goals for what I write), I guess we'll see how this goes. Maybe in advance I should say that my point is that "Justice" is not an effective way to get people to do, or not do, something. >> >> The type of justice you're talking about is not following the rules, it is trying to get other people to follow the rules. Unfortunately justice efforts are usually not about restitution and are instead about punishment. And what is the point of that if not some form of revenge? >> >> People may feel better about being mean or harming others because the others have broken some rule, but I'd hardly say that justifies the meanness and harm, even if we do call that "justice". If there is a bad law do you feel an obligation to follow it, or do you feel justified in harming others because it allows you to? If so then you're in a group with most people in the world who think that they can blame their actions on those who make the rules or tell them to do (or not do) something. >> >> Back to the point... how much use has that been here? Has it helped us all get along and collaborate to produce better software? >> >> -David >> >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >>> I have any revenge in this. Justice is "follow the rules". Who make the rules is another problem. >>> >>> Jacques >>> >>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]> >>>> What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a priority for people? >>>> >>>> I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly subjective and usually just a nice way of saying "revenge". >>>> >>>> -David >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>> >>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >>>>> >>>>>> This is a domain name: twitter.com >>>>>> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >>>>> >>>>> Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help and I'm >>>>> happy with that. >>>>> >>>>>> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and threatening to contact higher level ASF admins before discussing it on >>>>>> the private list is bad form IMO. >>>>> >>>>> Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been easier if you have kept them in your answer. Notably the name+logo >>>>> on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I wrote this message. I must say that in an effort to not put all on >>>>> this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea. >>>>> >>>>>> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider websites absolutely falls within the realm of nominative fair use IMO. >>>>>> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for OFBiz if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and display the logo? >>>>> >>>>> Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else about that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >>>>> >>>>>> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a minor issue and can easily be rectified without scaremongering by >>>>>> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in question. >>>>> >>>>> If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was the reason of my message. When you want justice, you can't hide >>>>> facts, even minor ones. >>>>> >>>>>> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we do not have the resources to do an adequate job of it ourselves. >>>>>> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and actively "police" is what is written at the bottom of the ASF >>>>>> guideline document: >>>>> "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow any third party to claim any association with the Apache >>>>> Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval or support by ASF for any third party products or services." >>>>> >>>>> Yes that's the point, I totally agree >>>>> >>>>>> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of sending out threatening emails. >>>>> >>>>> If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me >>>>> >>>>>> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list for one week? Do you really need to spark another one right now? >>>>>> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad. >>>>> >>>>> Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about lookin "bad", I just want justice. >>>>> >>>>> Jacques >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Scott >>>>> >>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Scott, >>>>>> >>>>>> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is irrelevant in my message? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jacques >>>>>> >>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >>>>>> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and I really would prefer it if you kept your thoughts to the >>>>>> private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring people away from marketing the project for us. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you >>>>>> Scott >>>>>> >>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hey guys, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This could be so easy :/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us to send him a demand. >>>>>>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account. >>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >>>>>>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send >>>>>>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked you to send >>>>>>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans. It's a >>>>>>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on feeding the tweets as you already suggested. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also shows it on >>>>>>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and similar) >>>>>>> graphic logos") >>>>>>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply also to >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax >>>>>>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted >>>>>>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that if it's >>>>>>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ >>>>>>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if all >>>>>>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong also as >>>>>>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other cases?) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the rules, if you >>>>>>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so much time >>>>>>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party (ie not >>>>>>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts they >>>>>>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being to show) and nobody will win anything. There are rules, >>>>>>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]> >>>>>>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for all service providers to do this - so please let's not >>>>>>>> keep doing this stuff. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it at all, would be to enhance the service providers page on >>>>>>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full page, linked from the service provider page, where people >>>>>>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own website is for, but I'm all for enhancing everyone's >>>>>>>> ability to get the word out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Ruppert >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert >>>>>>>> HotWax Media >>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares they can push it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is news: >>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an enduser >>>>>>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. >>>>>>>>> A link to your home page is not: >>>>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [hidden email] wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Author: hansbak >>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>>>>> New Revision: 919905 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev >>>>>>>>>> Log: >>>>>>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news offerings. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Modified: >>>>>>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff >>>>>>>>>> === === === ===================================================================== >>>>>>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) >>>>>>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> >>>>>>>>>> <ul> >>>>>>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow >>>>>>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, >>>>>>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a></li> >>>>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ " >>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF export</a> on <a >>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ " >>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV export</a> on <a >>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ " >>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list screen</a> on <a >>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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Understood on all points David - I was responding more to you on the general topic and I understand your concerns from Jacques post. Thanks for clarifying - and keep the book references coming!
Cheers, Ruppert On Mar 7, 2010, at 5:02 PM, David E Jones wrote: > > I agree with you Tim, effective giving and responding to feedback is vitally important to successful collaboration and all of us working together to build a strong community and make good software. Scott's response to my recent multi-tenant changes is a great example of such feedback, and hopefully I'll be able to respond to that feedback in a helpful way. > > That is a bit different than the issue here, which is that Jacques seemed to be trying to get people to do certain things because of rules. Confronting others on bad behavior or breaking rules is a good thing IMO, but this was going beyond that with a specific interpretation of the rules that didn't seem to fit and specific remedies to the indiscretions that also seemed somewhat unhelpful (ie getting into legal interpretations and remedies that are not consistent with what others understood of laws and ASF policies), and then going even beyond that to threaten an appeal to greater authority and possible legal action if the demands were not met, calling it all "justice". And yeah, I have a problem with that, hence my message to confront Jacques for that behavior. > > Stepping to back to really effective communication and problem solving, if I were to push anything I guess it would be to read the book "Simpleology" by Mark Joyner. That book is full of excellent stuff about problem solving and collaborating with others. > > While I'm plugging books I can't help but mention "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig. It's a fun read and does the best job I've ever seen of dealing with the sometimes maddening topics of quality and subject/object distinction (some key elements of clear and useful thinking). Okay, that's only related to this topic so much, but I had to mention it. This makes me want to sit down and do some reading (or go for a walk and do some listening), but I guess I'm having too much fun redesigning the foundation of my career (which has been cathartic and refreshing, sort of a Moqui ball like experience). > > -David > > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote: > >> My real question would be why is it always "hurting" people to bring up that the rules as they have been defined have been broken again? What was done wasn't correct, people mentioned it nicely, but then that wasn't ok - and it goes from there. >> >> The simple process of someone breaking the rules or stretching the truth SHOULD be able to be brought up - and instead of defensiveness, it should be greeted with, "Man, I'm so sorry, let's look into that together." Instead, an innocuous request to revert something that doesn't follow the PMC guidelines - or anyone's for that matter - was met with resistance and a passive aggressive comment meant to say that the original committer felt attacked. >> >> I think you need to start there - figuring out ways to get people to not be defensive in the face of someone looking at their work - then you can get back to building up the process of having people work together. When someone cries wolf every time anyone else mentions anything about the work - instead of taking the initiative to engage in the dialog - then that's where this slippery slope starts. It really shouldn't go downhill when someone questioning a commit - that should happen MORE often IMO - and the project would be better for it. >> >> Cheers, >> Ruppert >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:16 PM, David E Jones wrote: >> >>> >>> Hmmmm... given the misunderstanding of other things I've written (seems to be from an incorrect guess at motives and goals for what I write), I guess we'll see how this goes. Maybe in advance I should say that my point is that "Justice" is not an effective way to get people to do, or not do, something. >>> >>> The type of justice you're talking about is not following the rules, it is trying to get other people to follow the rules. Unfortunately justice efforts are usually not about restitution and are instead about punishment. And what is the point of that if not some form of revenge? >>> >>> People may feel better about being mean or harming others because the others have broken some rule, but I'd hardly say that justifies the meanness and harm, even if we do call that "justice". If there is a bad law do you feel an obligation to follow it, or do you feel justified in harming others because it allows you to? If so then you're in a group with most people in the world who think that they can blame their actions on those who make the rules or tell them to do (or not do) something. >>> >>> Back to the point... how much use has that been here? Has it helped us all get along and collaborate to produce better software? >>> >>> -David >>> >>> >>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>> >>>> I have any revenge in this. Justice is "follow the rules". Who make the rules is another problem. >>>> >>>> Jacques >>>> >>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]> >>>>> What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a priority for people? >>>>> >>>>> I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly subjective and usually just a nice way of saying "revenge". >>>>> >>>>> -David >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >>>>>> >>>>>>> This is a domain name: twitter.com >>>>>>> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help and I'm >>>>>> happy with that. >>>>>> >>>>>>> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and threatening to contact higher level ASF admins before discussing it on >>>>>>> the private list is bad form IMO. >>>>>> >>>>>> Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been easier if you have kept them in your answer. Notably the name+logo >>>>>> on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I wrote this message. I must say that in an effort to not put all on >>>>>> this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider websites absolutely falls within the realm of nominative fair use IMO. >>>>>>> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for OFBiz if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and display the logo? >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else about that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >>>>>> >>>>>>> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a minor issue and can easily be rectified without scaremongering by >>>>>>> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in question. >>>>>> >>>>>> If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was the reason of my message. When you want justice, you can't hide >>>>>> facts, even minor ones. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we do not have the resources to do an adequate job of it ourselves. >>>>>>> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and actively "police" is what is written at the bottom of the ASF >>>>>>> guideline document: >>>>>> "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow any third party to claim any association with the Apache >>>>>> Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval or support by ASF for any third party products or services." >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes that's the point, I totally agree >>>>>> >>>>>>> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of sending out threatening emails. >>>>>> >>>>>> If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me >>>>>> >>>>>>> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list for one week? Do you really need to spark another one right now? >>>>>>> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about lookin "bad", I just want justice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jacques >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Scott >>>>>> >>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Scott, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is irrelevant in my message? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >>>>>>> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and I really would prefer it if you kept your thoughts to the >>>>>>> private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring people away from marketing the project for us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you >>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hey guys, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This could be so easy :/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us to send him a demand. >>>>>>>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account. >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >>>>>>>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send >>>>>>>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked you to send >>>>>>>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans. It's a >>>>>>>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on feeding the tweets as you already suggested. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also shows it on >>>>>>>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and similar) >>>>>>>> graphic logos") >>>>>>>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply also to >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax >>>>>>>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted >>>>>>>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that if it's >>>>>>>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ >>>>>>>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if all >>>>>>>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong also as >>>>>>>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other cases?) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the rules, if you >>>>>>>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so much time >>>>>>>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party (ie not >>>>>>>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts they >>>>>>>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being to show) and nobody will win anything. There are rules, >>>>>>>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]> >>>>>>>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for all service providers to do this - so please let's not >>>>>>>>> keep doing this stuff. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it at all, would be to enhance the service providers page on >>>>>>>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full page, linked from the service provider page, where people >>>>>>>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own website is for, but I'm all for enhancing everyone's >>>>>>>>> ability to get the word out. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Ruppert >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert >>>>>>>>> HotWax Media >>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares they can push it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is news: >>>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an enduser >>>>>>>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. >>>>>>>>>> A link to your home page is not: >>>>>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [hidden email] wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Author: hansbak >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>>>>>> New Revision: 919905 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev >>>>>>>>>>> Log: >>>>>>>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news offerings. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: >>>>>>>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff >>>>>>>>>>> === === === ===================================================================== >>>>>>>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) >>>>>>>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> >>>>>>>>>>> <ul> >>>>>>>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow >>>>>>>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, >>>>>>>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a></li> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ " >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF export</a> on <a >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ " >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV export</a> on <a >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ " >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list screen</a> on <a >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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Administrator
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In reply to this post by David E. Jones-2
David,
Something has to be done because, to be clear, Hans was not taking into account our comments repeated 2 or 3 times. I tried this harsh way because I knew it will do something. As I said I did not like to do it and actually I was expecting some reactions. It seems that it's not a success so far because I have not received the credentials to http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz , but maybe other committers got it? Hans, I may help you if you need it and send you the list of commiters email addresses? Do you think this page/account is fair if we (commiters) have no access to it? One more time I think Hans had a good idea to create this account and put a button to it from the main page. It's only that it should be shared. OK, let's see what will happen... Jacques From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]> > > I agree with you Tim, effective giving and responding to feedback is vitally important to successful collaboration and all of us > working together to build a strong community and make good software. Scott's response to my recent multi-tenant changes is a great > example of such feedback, and hopefully I'll be able to respond to that feedback in a helpful way. > > That is a bit different than the issue here, which is that Jacques seemed to be trying to get people to do certain things because > of rules. Confronting others on bad behavior or breaking rules is a good thing IMO, but this was going beyond that with a specific > interpretation of the rules that didn't seem to fit and specific remedies to the indiscretions that also seemed somewhat unhelpful > (ie getting into legal interpretations and remedies that are not consistent with what others understood of laws and ASF policies), > and then going even beyond that to threaten an appeal to greater authority and possible legal action if the demands were not met, > calling it all "justice". And yeah, I have a problem with that, hence my message to confront Jacques for that behavior. > > Stepping to back to really effective communication and problem solving, if I were to push anything I guess it would be to read the > book "Simpleology" by Mark Joyner. That book is full of excellent stuff about problem solving and collaborating with others. > > While I'm plugging books I can't help but mention "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig. It's a fun read > and does the best job I've ever seen of dealing with the sometimes maddening topics of quality and subject/object distinction > (some key elements of clear and useful thinking). Okay, that's only related to this topic so much, but I had to mention it. This > makes me want to sit down and do some reading (or go for a walk and do some listening), but I guess I'm having too much fun > redesigning the foundation of my career (which has been cathartic and refreshing, sort of a Moqui ball like experience). > > -David > > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote: > >> My real question would be why is it always "hurting" people to bring up that the rules as they have been defined have been broken >> again? What was done wasn't correct, people mentioned it nicely, but then that wasn't ok - and it goes from there. >> >> The simple process of someone breaking the rules or stretching the truth SHOULD be able to be brought up - and instead of >> defensiveness, it should be greeted with, "Man, I'm so sorry, let's look into that together." Instead, an innocuous request to >> revert something that doesn't follow the PMC guidelines - or anyone's for that matter - was met with resistance and a passive >> aggressive comment meant to say that the original committer felt attacked. >> >> I think you need to start there - figuring out ways to get people to not be defensive in the face of someone looking at their >> work - then you can get back to building up the process of having people work together. When someone cries wolf every time >> anyone else mentions anything about the work - instead of taking the initiative to engage in the dialog - then that's where this >> slippery slope starts. It really shouldn't go downhill when someone questioning a commit - that should happen MORE often IMO - >> and the project would be better for it. >> >> Cheers, >> Ruppert >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:16 PM, David E Jones wrote: >> >>> >>> Hmmmm... given the misunderstanding of other things I've written (seems to be from an incorrect guess at motives and goals for >>> what I write), I guess we'll see how this goes. Maybe in advance I should say that my point is that "Justice" is not an >>> effective way to get people to do, or not do, something. >>> >>> The type of justice you're talking about is not following the rules, it is trying to get other people to follow the rules. >>> Unfortunately justice efforts are usually not about restitution and are instead about punishment. And what is the point of that >>> if not some form of revenge? >>> >>> People may feel better about being mean or harming others because the others have broken some rule, but I'd hardly say that >>> justifies the meanness and harm, even if we do call that "justice". If there is a bad law do you feel an obligation to follow >>> it, or do you feel justified in harming others because it allows you to? If so then you're in a group with most people in the >>> world who think that they can blame their actions on those who make the rules or tell them to do (or not do) something. >>> >>> Back to the point... how much use has that been here? Has it helped us all get along and collaborate to produce better software? >>> >>> -David >>> >>> >>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>> >>>> I have any revenge in this. Justice is "follow the rules". Who make the rules is another problem. >>>> >>>> Jacques >>>> >>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]> >>>>> What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a priority for people? >>>>> >>>>> I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly subjective and usually just a nice way of saying "revenge". >>>>> >>>>> -David >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >>>>>> >>>>>>> This is a domain name: twitter.com >>>>>>> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >>>>>> and I'm >>>>>> happy with that. >>>>>> >>>>>>> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and threatening to contact higher level ASF admins before discussing >>>>>>> it on >>>>>>> the private list is bad form IMO. >>>>>> >>>>>> Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been easier if you have kept them in your answer. Notably the >>>>>> name+logo >>>>>> on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I wrote this message. I must say that in an effort to not put >>>>>> all on >>>>>> this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider websites absolutely falls within the realm of nominative fair >>>>>>> use IMO. >>>>>>> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for OFBiz if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and display >>>>>>> the logo? >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else about that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >>>>>> >>>>>>> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a minor issue and can easily be rectified without >>>>>>> scaremongering by >>>>>>> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in question. >>>>>> >>>>>> If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was the reason of my message. When you want justice, you can't >>>>>> hide >>>>>> facts, even minor ones. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we do not have the resources to do an adequate job of it >>>>>>> ourselves. >>>>>>> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and actively "police" is what is written at the bottom of the ASF >>>>>>> guideline document: >>>>>> "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow any third party to claim any association with the Apache >>>>>> Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval or support by ASF for any third party products or >>>>>> services." >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes that's the point, I totally agree >>>>>> >>>>>>> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of sending out threatening emails. >>>>>> >>>>>> If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me >>>>>> >>>>>>> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list for one week? Do you really need to spark another one right >>>>>>> now? >>>>>>> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about lookin "bad", I just want justice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jacques >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Scott >>>>>> >>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Scott, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is irrelevant in my message? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >>>>>>> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and I really would prefer it if you kept your thoughts >>>>>>> to the >>>>>>> private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring people away from marketing the project for us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you >>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hey guys, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This could be so easy :/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us to send him a demand. >>>>>>>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account. >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >>>>>>>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send >>>>>>>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked you >>>>>>>> to send >>>>>>>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans. >>>>>>>> It's a >>>>>>>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on feeding the tweets as you already suggested. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also shows >>>>>>>> it on >>>>>>>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and similar) >>>>>>>> graphic logos") >>>>>>>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply also to >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax >>>>>>>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted >>>>>>>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that if >>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ >>>>>>>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if all >>>>>>>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong >>>>>>>> also as >>>>>>>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other >>>>>>>> cases?) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the rules, if >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so much >>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party (ie >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being to show) and nobody will win anything. There are >>>>>>>> rules, >>>>>>>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]> >>>>>>>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for all service providers to do this - so please let's >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> keep doing this stuff. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it at all, would be to enhance the service providers >>>>>>>>> page on >>>>>>>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full page, linked from the service provider page, where >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own website is for, but I'm all for enhancing >>>>>>>>> everyone's >>>>>>>>> ability to get the word out. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Ruppert >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert >>>>>>>>> HotWax Media >>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares they can push it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is news: >>>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an >>>>>>>>>>> enduser >>>>>>>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. >>>>>>>>>> A link to your home page is not: >>>>>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an >>>>>>>>>>> example.</a> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [hidden email] wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Author: hansbak >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>>>>>> New Revision: 919905 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev >>>>>>>>>>> Log: >>>>>>>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news offerings. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: >>>>>>>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff >>>>>>>>>>> === === === ===================================================================== >>>>>>>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) >>>>>>>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> >>>>>>>>>>> <ul> >>>>>>>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, >>>>>>>>>>> follow >>>>>>>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this >>>>>>>>>>> news, >>>>>>>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a></li> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ " >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF export</a> on <a >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ " >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV export</a> on <a >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ " >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list screen</a> on <a >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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Jacques,
Let first see what Tims actions will result in. I did not sent any passwords yet. It would also be interesting to know what the opinion of our new PMC chair Jacopo is, he is awfully quiet. When we do not agree, he has to take a decision. I still think that with this twitter feed i provide a service to casual end users to keep them informed about the major topics in the project. Like a blog what is often updated. I still do not understand why it cannot be in the news section while other blogs are accepted there. Regards, Hans On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 10:29 +0100, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > David, > > Something has to be done because, to be clear, Hans was not taking into account our comments repeated 2 or 3 times. I tried this > harsh way because I knew it will do something. As I said I did not like to do it and actually I was expecting some reactions. > It seems that it's not a success so far because I have not received the credentials to http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz , but maybe > other committers got it? > > Hans, I may help you if you need it and send you the list of commiters email addresses? Do you think this page/account is fair if we > (commiters) have no access to it? > > One more time I think Hans had a good idea to create this account and put a button to it from the main page. It's only that it > should be shared. OK, let's see what will happen... > > Jacques > > From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]> > > > > I agree with you Tim, effective giving and responding to feedback is vitally important to successful collaboration and all of us > > working together to build a strong community and make good software. Scott's response to my recent multi-tenant changes is a great > > example of such feedback, and hopefully I'll be able to respond to that feedback in a helpful way. > > > > That is a bit different than the issue here, which is that Jacques seemed to be trying to get people to do certain things because > > of rules. Confronting others on bad behavior or breaking rules is a good thing IMO, but this was going beyond that with a specific > > interpretation of the rules that didn't seem to fit and specific remedies to the indiscretions that also seemed somewhat unhelpful > > (ie getting into legal interpretations and remedies that are not consistent with what others understood of laws and ASF policies), > > and then going even beyond that to threaten an appeal to greater authority and possible legal action if the demands were not met, > > calling it all "justice". And yeah, I have a problem with that, hence my message to confront Jacques for that behavior. > > > > Stepping to back to really effective communication and problem solving, if I were to push anything I guess it would be to read the > > book "Simpleology" by Mark Joyner. That book is full of excellent stuff about problem solving and collaborating with others. > > > > While I'm plugging books I can't help but mention "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig. It's a fun read > > and does the best job I've ever seen of dealing with the sometimes maddening topics of quality and subject/object distinction > > (some key elements of clear and useful thinking). Okay, that's only related to this topic so much, but I had to mention it. This > > makes me want to sit down and do some reading (or go for a walk and do some listening), but I guess I'm having too much fun > > redesigning the foundation of my career (which has been cathartic and refreshing, sort of a Moqui ball like experience). > > > > -David > > > > > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote: > > > >> My real question would be why is it always "hurting" people to bring up that the rules as they have been defined have been broken > >> again? What was done wasn't correct, people mentioned it nicely, but then that wasn't ok - and it goes from there. > >> > >> The simple process of someone breaking the rules or stretching the truth SHOULD be able to be brought up - and instead of > >> defensiveness, it should be greeted with, "Man, I'm so sorry, let's look into that together." Instead, an innocuous request to > >> revert something that doesn't follow the PMC guidelines - or anyone's for that matter - was met with resistance and a passive > >> aggressive comment meant to say that the original committer felt attacked. > >> > >> I think you need to start there - figuring out ways to get people to not be defensive in the face of someone looking at their > >> work - then you can get back to building up the process of having people work together. When someone cries wolf every time > >> anyone else mentions anything about the work - instead of taking the initiative to engage in the dialog - then that's where this > >> slippery slope starts. It really shouldn't go downhill when someone questioning a commit - that should happen MORE often IMO - > >> and the project would be better for it. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Ruppert > >> > >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:16 PM, David E Jones wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> Hmmmm... given the misunderstanding of other things I've written (seems to be from an incorrect guess at motives and goals for > >>> what I write), I guess we'll see how this goes. Maybe in advance I should say that my point is that "Justice" is not an > >>> effective way to get people to do, or not do, something. > >>> > >>> The type of justice you're talking about is not following the rules, it is trying to get other people to follow the rules. > >>> Unfortunately justice efforts are usually not about restitution and are instead about punishment. And what is the point of that > >>> if not some form of revenge? > >>> > >>> People may feel better about being mean or harming others because the others have broken some rule, but I'd hardly say that > >>> justifies the meanness and harm, even if we do call that "justice". If there is a bad law do you feel an obligation to follow > >>> it, or do you feel justified in harming others because it allows you to? If so then you're in a group with most people in the > >>> world who think that they can blame their actions on those who make the rules or tell them to do (or not do) something. > >>> > >>> Back to the point... how much use has that been here? Has it helped us all get along and collaborate to produce better software? > >>> > >>> -David > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >>> > >>>> I have any revenge in this. Justice is "follow the rules". Who make the rules is another problem. > >>>> > >>>> Jacques > >>>> > >>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]> > >>>>> What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a priority for people? > >>>>> > >>>>> I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly subjective and usually just a nice way of saying "revenge". > >>>>> > >>>>> -David > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> > >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: > >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) > >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use > >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> This is a domain name: twitter.com > >>>>>>> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help > >>>>>> and I'm > >>>>>> happy with that. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and threatening to contact higher level ASF admins before discussing > >>>>>>> it on > >>>>>>> the private list is bad form IMO. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been easier if you have kept them in your answer. Notably the > >>>>>> name+logo > >>>>>> on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I wrote this message. I must say that in an effort to not put > >>>>>> all on > >>>>>> this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider websites absolutely falls within the realm of nominative fair > >>>>>>> use IMO. > >>>>>>> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for OFBiz if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and display > >>>>>>> the logo? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else about that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a minor issue and can easily be rectified without > >>>>>>> scaremongering by > >>>>>>> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in question. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was the reason of my message. When you want justice, you can't > >>>>>> hide > >>>>>> facts, even minor ones. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we do not have the resources to do an adequate job of it > >>>>>>> ourselves. > >>>>>>> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and actively "police" is what is written at the bottom of the ASF > >>>>>>> guideline document: > >>>>>> "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow any third party to claim any association with the Apache > >>>>>> Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval or support by ASF for any third party products or > >>>>>> services." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Yes that's the point, I totally agree > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of sending out threatening emails. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list for one week? Do you really need to spark another one right > >>>>>>> now? > >>>>>>> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about lookin "bad", I just want justice. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Jacques > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards > >>>>>> Scott > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Scott, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is irrelevant in my message? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Jacques > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> > >>>>>>> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and I really would prefer it if you kept your thoughts > >>>>>>> to the > >>>>>>> private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring people away from marketing the project for us. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>>> Scott > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hey guys, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> This could be so easy :/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us to send him a demand. > >>>>>>>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account. > >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: > >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) > >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use > >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. > >>>>>>>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send > >>>>>>>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked you > >>>>>>>> to send > >>>>>>>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans. > >>>>>>>> It's a > >>>>>>>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on feeding the tweets as you already suggested. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also shows > >>>>>>>> it on > >>>>>>>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and similar) > >>>>>>>> graphic logos") > >>>>>>>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply also to > >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help > >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax > >>>>>>>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted > >>>>>>>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that if > >>>>>>>> it's > >>>>>>>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ > >>>>>>>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if all > >>>>>>>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong > >>>>>>>> also as > >>>>>>>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other > >>>>>>>> cases?) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the rules, if > >>>>>>>> you > >>>>>>>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so much > >>>>>>>> time > >>>>>>>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party (ie > >>>>>>>> not > >>>>>>>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts > >>>>>>>> they > >>>>>>>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being to show) and nobody will win anything. There are > >>>>>>>> rules, > >>>>>>>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Jacques > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]> > >>>>>>>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for all service providers to do this - so please let's > >>>>>>>>> not > >>>>>>>>> keep doing this stuff. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it at all, would be to enhance the service providers > >>>>>>>>> page on > >>>>>>>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full page, linked from the service provider page, where > >>>>>>>>> people > >>>>>>>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own website is for, but I'm all for enhancing > >>>>>>>>> everyone's > >>>>>>>>> ability to get the word out. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>>> Ruppert > >>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert > >>>>>>>>> HotWax Media > >>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594 > >>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares they can push it. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> This is news: > >>>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an > >>>>>>>>>>> enduser > >>>>>>>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. > >>>>>>>>>> A link to your home page is not: > >>>>>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an > >>>>>>>>>>> example.</a> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Regards > >>>>>>>>>> Scott > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Author: hansbak > >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 > >>>>>>>>>>> New Revision: 919905 > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev > >>>>>>>>>>> Log: > >>>>>>>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news offerings. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: > >>>>>>>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html > >>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff > >>>>>>>>>>> === === === ===================================================================== > >>>>>>>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) > >>>>>>>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 > >>>>>>>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> > >>>>>>>>>>> <ul> > >>>>>>>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, > >>>>>>>>>>> follow > >>>>>>>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this > >>>>>>>>>>> news, > >>>>>>>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a></li> > >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ " > >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF export</a> on <a > >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> > >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ " > >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV export</a> on <a > >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> > >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ " > >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list screen</a> on <a > >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive rates |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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Administrator
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Hans,
I think as Tim said in the modified log of r920213 we are only waiting that you send us (committers) the credentials. For the news section, I think your 1st intend was better, and from what I have understood from Tim's comment he also agree. So my opininon is that as soon as all commiters will have an access to this Tweeter account, we could put back the "original Follow Us" (as Tim called it in the modified log of r920213) button in main site header and this issue would be closed. At this stage, do we really need to have a vote and all this kind of stuff? Personnally I don't think so. Maybe there is something that you don't like in this solution? Then could you please explain what? Thanks Jacques From: "Hans Bakker" <[hidden email]> > Jacques, > Let first see what Tims actions will result in. I did not sent any > passwords yet. > > It would also be interesting to know what the opinion of our new PMC > chair Jacopo is, he is awfully quiet. When we do not agree, he has to > take a decision. > > I still think that with this twitter feed i provide a service to casual > end users to keep them informed about the major topics in the project. > Like a blog what is often updated. I still do not understand why it > cannot be in the news section while other blogs are accepted there. > > Regards, > Hans > > On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 10:29 +0100, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> David, >> >> Something has to be done because, to be clear, Hans was not taking into account our comments repeated 2 or 3 times. I tried this >> harsh way because I knew it will do something. As I said I did not like to do it and actually I was expecting some reactions. >> It seems that it's not a success so far because I have not received the credentials to http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz , but >> maybe >> other committers got it? >> >> Hans, I may help you if you need it and send you the list of commiters email addresses? Do you think this page/account is fair if >> we >> (commiters) have no access to it? >> >> One more time I think Hans had a good idea to create this account and put a button to it from the main page. It's only that it >> should be shared. OK, let's see what will happen... >> >> Jacques >> >> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]> >> > >> > I agree with you Tim, effective giving and responding to feedback is vitally important to successful collaboration and all of >> > us >> > working together to build a strong community and make good software. Scott's response to my recent multi-tenant changes is a >> > great >> > example of such feedback, and hopefully I'll be able to respond to that feedback in a helpful way. >> > >> > That is a bit different than the issue here, which is that Jacques seemed to be trying to get people to do certain things >> > because >> > of rules. Confronting others on bad behavior or breaking rules is a good thing IMO, but this was going beyond that with a >> > specific >> > interpretation of the rules that didn't seem to fit and specific remedies to the indiscretions that also seemed somewhat >> > unhelpful >> > (ie getting into legal interpretations and remedies that are not consistent with what others understood of laws and ASF >> > policies), >> > and then going even beyond that to threaten an appeal to greater authority and possible legal action if the demands were not >> > met, >> > calling it all "justice". And yeah, I have a problem with that, hence my message to confront Jacques for that behavior. >> > >> > Stepping to back to really effective communication and problem solving, if I were to push anything I guess it would be to read >> > the >> > book "Simpleology" by Mark Joyner. That book is full of excellent stuff about problem solving and collaborating with others. >> > >> > While I'm plugging books I can't help but mention "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig. It's a fun read >> > and does the best job I've ever seen of dealing with the sometimes maddening topics of quality and subject/object distinction >> > (some key elements of clear and useful thinking). Okay, that's only related to this topic so much, but I had to mention it. >> > This >> > makes me want to sit down and do some reading (or go for a walk and do some listening), but I guess I'm having too much fun >> > redesigning the foundation of my career (which has been cathartic and refreshing, sort of a Moqui ball like experience). >> > >> > -David >> > >> > >> > On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote: >> > >> >> My real question would be why is it always "hurting" people to bring up that the rules as they have been defined have been >> >> broken >> >> again? What was done wasn't correct, people mentioned it nicely, but then that wasn't ok - and it goes from there. >> >> >> >> The simple process of someone breaking the rules or stretching the truth SHOULD be able to be brought up - and instead of >> >> defensiveness, it should be greeted with, "Man, I'm so sorry, let's look into that together." Instead, an innocuous request >> >> to >> >> revert something that doesn't follow the PMC guidelines - or anyone's for that matter - was met with resistance and a passive >> >> aggressive comment meant to say that the original committer felt attacked. >> >> >> >> I think you need to start there - figuring out ways to get people to not be defensive in the face of someone looking at their >> >> work - then you can get back to building up the process of having people work together. When someone cries wolf every time >> >> anyone else mentions anything about the work - instead of taking the initiative to engage in the dialog - then that's where >> >> this >> >> slippery slope starts. It really shouldn't go downhill when someone questioning a commit - that should happen MORE often >> >> IMO - >> >> and the project would be better for it. >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Ruppert >> >> >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:16 PM, David E Jones wrote: >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Hmmmm... given the misunderstanding of other things I've written (seems to be from an incorrect guess at motives and goals >> >>> for >> >>> what I write), I guess we'll see how this goes. Maybe in advance I should say that my point is that "Justice" is not an >> >>> effective way to get people to do, or not do, something. >> >>> >> >>> The type of justice you're talking about is not following the rules, it is trying to get other people to follow the rules. >> >>> Unfortunately justice efforts are usually not about restitution and are instead about punishment. And what is the point of >> >>> that >> >>> if not some form of revenge? >> >>> >> >>> People may feel better about being mean or harming others because the others have broken some rule, but I'd hardly say that >> >>> justifies the meanness and harm, even if we do call that "justice". If there is a bad law do you feel an obligation to follow >> >>> it, or do you feel justified in harming others because it allows you to? If so then you're in a group with most people in the >> >>> world who think that they can blame their actions on those who make the rules or tell them to do (or not do) something. >> >>> >> >>> Back to the point... how much use has that been here? Has it helped us all get along and collaborate to produce better >> >>> software? >> >>> >> >>> -David >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> I have any revenge in this. Justice is "follow the rules". Who make the rules is another problem. >> >>>> >> >>>> Jacques >> >>>> >> >>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]> >> >>>>> What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a priority for people? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly subjective and usually just a nice way of saying "revenge". >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -David >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >> >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >> >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >> >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> This is a domain name: twitter.com >> >>>>>>> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or >> >>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >> >>>>>> and I'm >> >>>>>> happy with that. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and threatening to contact higher level ASF admins before >> >>>>>>> discussing >> >>>>>>> it on >> >>>>>>> the private list is bad form IMO. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been easier if you have kept them in your answer. Notably the >> >>>>>> name+logo >> >>>>>> on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I wrote this message. I must say that in an effort to not put >> >>>>>> all on >> >>>>>> this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider websites absolutely falls within the realm of nominative >> >>>>>>> fair >> >>>>>>> use IMO. >> >>>>>>> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for OFBiz if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and display >> >>>>>>> the logo? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else about that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a minor issue and can easily be rectified without >> >>>>>>> scaremongering by >> >>>>>>> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in question. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was the reason of my message. When you want justice, you >> >>>>>> can't >> >>>>>> hide >> >>>>>> facts, even minor ones. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we do not have the resources to do an adequate job of it >> >>>>>>> ourselves. >> >>>>>>> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and actively "police" is what is written at the bottom of the >> >>>>>>> ASF >> >>>>>>> guideline document: >> >>>>>> "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow any third party to claim any association with the >> >>>>>> Apache >> >>>>>> Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval or support by ASF for any third party products or >> >>>>>> services." >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Yes that's the point, I totally agree >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of sending out threatening emails. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list for one week? Do you really need to spark another one >> >>>>>>> right >> >>>>>>> now? >> >>>>>>> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about lookin "bad", I just want justice. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Jacques >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Regards >> >>>>>> Scott >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Scott, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is irrelevant in my message? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Jacques >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >> >>>>>>> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and I really would prefer it if you kept your >> >>>>>>> thoughts >> >>>>>>> to the >> >>>>>>> private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring people away from marketing the project for us. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Thank you >> >>>>>>> Scott >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Hey guys, >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> This could be so easy :/ >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us to send him a demand. >> >>>>>>>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account. >> >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >> >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >> >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >> >>>>>>>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send >> >>>>>>>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked >> >>>>>>>> you >> >>>>>>>> to send >> >>>>>>>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans. >> >>>>>>>> It's a >> >>>>>>>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on feeding the tweets as you already suggested. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also >> >>>>>>>> shows >> >>>>>>>> it on >> >>>>>>>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and >> >>>>>>>> similar) >> >>>>>>>> graphic logos") >> >>>>>>>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply also to >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax >> >>>>>>>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?) >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted >> >>>>>>>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that >> >>>>>>>> if >> >>>>>>>> it's >> >>>>>>>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ >> >>>>>>>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if >> >>>>>>>> all >> >>>>>>>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong >> >>>>>>>> also as >> >>>>>>>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other >> >>>>>>>> cases?) >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the rules, >> >>>>>>>> if >> >>>>>>>> you >> >>>>>>>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty! >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so >> >>>>>>>> much >> >>>>>>>> time >> >>>>>>>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party >> >>>>>>>> (ie >> >>>>>>>> not >> >>>>>>>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts >> >>>>>>>> they >> >>>>>>>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being to show) and nobody will win anything. There are >> >>>>>>>> rules, >> >>>>>>>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard? >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Jacques >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]> >> >>>>>>>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for all service providers to do this - so please >> >>>>>>>>> let's >> >>>>>>>>> not >> >>>>>>>>> keep doing this stuff. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it at all, would be to enhance the service providers >> >>>>>>>>> page on >> >>>>>>>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full page, linked from the service provider page, where >> >>>>>>>>> people >> >>>>>>>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own website is for, but I'm all for enhancing >> >>>>>>>>> everyone's >> >>>>>>>>> ability to get the word out. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >> >>>>>>>>> Ruppert >> >>>>>>>>> -- >> >>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert >> >>>>>>>>> HotWax Media >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594 >> >>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595 >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares they can push it. >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> This is news: >> >>>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an >> >>>>>>>>>>> enduser >> >>>>>>>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. >> >>>>>>>>>> A link to your home page is not: >> >>>>>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an >> >>>>>>>>>>> example.</a> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea. >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Regards >> >>>>>>>>>> Scott >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [hidden email] wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Author: hansbak >> >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >> >>>>>>>>>>> New Revision: 919905 >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev >> >>>>>>>>>>> Log: >> >>>>>>>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news offerings. >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: >> >>>>>>>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html >> >>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff >> >>>>>>>>>>> === === === ===================================================================== >> >>>>>>>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) >> >>>>>>>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >> >>>>>>>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> >> >>>>>>>>>>> <ul> >> >>>>>>>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, >> >>>>>>>>>>> follow >> >>>>>>>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this >> >>>>>>>>>>> news, >> >>>>>>>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a></li> >> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ " >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF export</a> on <a >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ " >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV export</a> on <a >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ " >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list screen</a> on <a >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > -- > Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive rates > |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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The log states:
Reverted commit 919905 in order to ensure that this twitter account is not being misrepresented. Will send this to legal and if this is ok, will put this back.:q so lets wait until he gets an answer from legal. Regards, hans On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 11:02 +0100, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > Hans, > > I think as Tim said in the modified log of r920213 we are only waiting that you send us (committers) the credentials. > > For the news section, I think your 1st intend was better, and from what I have understood from Tim's comment he also agree. So my > opininon is that as soon as all commiters will have an access to this Tweeter account, we could put back the "original Follow Us" > (as Tim called it in the modified log of r920213) button in main site header and this issue would be closed. At this stage, do we > really need to have a vote and all this kind of stuff? Personnally I don't think so. > > Maybe there is something that you don't like in this solution? Then could you please explain what? > > Thanks > > Jacques > > From: "Hans Bakker" <[hidden email]> > > Jacques, > > Let first see what Tims actions will result in. I did not sent any > > passwords yet. > > > > It would also be interesting to know what the opinion of our new PMC > > chair Jacopo is, he is awfully quiet. When we do not agree, he has to > > take a decision. > > > > I still think that with this twitter feed i provide a service to casual > > end users to keep them informed about the major topics in the project. > > Like a blog what is often updated. I still do not understand why it > > cannot be in the news section while other blogs are accepted there. > > > > Regards, > > Hans > > > > On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 10:29 +0100, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> David, > >> > >> Something has to be done because, to be clear, Hans was not taking into account our comments repeated 2 or 3 times. I tried this > >> harsh way because I knew it will do something. As I said I did not like to do it and actually I was expecting some reactions. > >> It seems that it's not a success so far because I have not received the credentials to http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz , but > >> maybe > >> other committers got it? > >> > >> Hans, I may help you if you need it and send you the list of commiters email addresses? Do you think this page/account is fair if > >> we > >> (commiters) have no access to it? > >> > >> One more time I think Hans had a good idea to create this account and put a button to it from the main page. It's only that it > >> should be shared. OK, let's see what will happen... > >> > >> Jacques > >> > >> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]> > >> > > >> > I agree with you Tim, effective giving and responding to feedback is vitally important to successful collaboration and all of > >> > us > >> > working together to build a strong community and make good software. Scott's response to my recent multi-tenant changes is a > >> > great > >> > example of such feedback, and hopefully I'll be able to respond to that feedback in a helpful way. > >> > > >> > That is a bit different than the issue here, which is that Jacques seemed to be trying to get people to do certain things > >> > because > >> > of rules. Confronting others on bad behavior or breaking rules is a good thing IMO, but this was going beyond that with a > >> > specific > >> > interpretation of the rules that didn't seem to fit and specific remedies to the indiscretions that also seemed somewhat > >> > unhelpful > >> > (ie getting into legal interpretations and remedies that are not consistent with what others understood of laws and ASF > >> > policies), > >> > and then going even beyond that to threaten an appeal to greater authority and possible legal action if the demands were not > >> > met, > >> > calling it all "justice". And yeah, I have a problem with that, hence my message to confront Jacques for that behavior. > >> > > >> > Stepping to back to really effective communication and problem solving, if I were to push anything I guess it would be to read > >> > the > >> > book "Simpleology" by Mark Joyner. That book is full of excellent stuff about problem solving and collaborating with others. > >> > > >> > While I'm plugging books I can't help but mention "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig. It's a fun read > >> > and does the best job I've ever seen of dealing with the sometimes maddening topics of quality and subject/object distinction > >> > (some key elements of clear and useful thinking). Okay, that's only related to this topic so much, but I had to mention it. > >> > This > >> > makes me want to sit down and do some reading (or go for a walk and do some listening), but I guess I'm having too much fun > >> > redesigning the foundation of my career (which has been cathartic and refreshing, sort of a Moqui ball like experience). > >> > > >> > -David > >> > > >> > > >> > On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote: > >> > > >> >> My real question would be why is it always "hurting" people to bring up that the rules as they have been defined have been > >> >> broken > >> >> again? What was done wasn't correct, people mentioned it nicely, but then that wasn't ok - and it goes from there. > >> >> > >> >> The simple process of someone breaking the rules or stretching the truth SHOULD be able to be brought up - and instead of > >> >> defensiveness, it should be greeted with, "Man, I'm so sorry, let's look into that together." Instead, an innocuous request > >> >> to > >> >> revert something that doesn't follow the PMC guidelines - or anyone's for that matter - was met with resistance and a passive > >> >> aggressive comment meant to say that the original committer felt attacked. > >> >> > >> >> I think you need to start there - figuring out ways to get people to not be defensive in the face of someone looking at their > >> >> work - then you can get back to building up the process of having people work together. When someone cries wolf every time > >> >> anyone else mentions anything about the work - instead of taking the initiative to engage in the dialog - then that's where > >> >> this > >> >> slippery slope starts. It really shouldn't go downhill when someone questioning a commit - that should happen MORE often > >> >> IMO - > >> >> and the project would be better for it. > >> >> > >> >> Cheers, > >> >> Ruppert > >> >> > >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:16 PM, David E Jones wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >>> Hmmmm... given the misunderstanding of other things I've written (seems to be from an incorrect guess at motives and goals > >> >>> for > >> >>> what I write), I guess we'll see how this goes. Maybe in advance I should say that my point is that "Justice" is not an > >> >>> effective way to get people to do, or not do, something. > >> >>> > >> >>> The type of justice you're talking about is not following the rules, it is trying to get other people to follow the rules. > >> >>> Unfortunately justice efforts are usually not about restitution and are instead about punishment. And what is the point of > >> >>> that > >> >>> if not some form of revenge? > >> >>> > >> >>> People may feel better about being mean or harming others because the others have broken some rule, but I'd hardly say that > >> >>> justifies the meanness and harm, even if we do call that "justice". If there is a bad law do you feel an obligation to follow > >> >>> it, or do you feel justified in harming others because it allows you to? If so then you're in a group with most people in the > >> >>> world who think that they can blame their actions on those who make the rules or tell them to do (or not do) something. > >> >>> > >> >>> Back to the point... how much use has that been here? Has it helped us all get along and collaborate to produce better > >> >>> software? > >> >>> > >> >>> -David > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> I have any revenge in this. Justice is "follow the rules". Who make the rules is another problem. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Jacques > >> >>>> > >> >>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]> > >> >>>>> What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a priority for people? > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly subjective and usually just a nice way of saying "revenge". > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> -David > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> > >> >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: > >> >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) > >> >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use > >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> This is a domain name: twitter.com > >> >>>>>>> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or > >> >>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help > >> >>>>>> and I'm > >> >>>>>> happy with that. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and threatening to contact higher level ASF admins before > >> >>>>>>> discussing > >> >>>>>>> it on > >> >>>>>>> the private list is bad form IMO. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been easier if you have kept them in your answer. Notably the > >> >>>>>> name+logo > >> >>>>>> on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I wrote this message. I must say that in an effort to not put > >> >>>>>> all on > >> >>>>>> this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider websites absolutely falls within the realm of nominative > >> >>>>>>> fair > >> >>>>>>> use IMO. > >> >>>>>>> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for OFBiz if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and display > >> >>>>>>> the logo? > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else about that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a minor issue and can easily be rectified without > >> >>>>>>> scaremongering by > >> >>>>>>> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in question. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was the reason of my message. When you want justice, you > >> >>>>>> can't > >> >>>>>> hide > >> >>>>>> facts, even minor ones. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we do not have the resources to do an adequate job of it > >> >>>>>>> ourselves. > >> >>>>>>> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and actively "police" is what is written at the bottom of the > >> >>>>>>> ASF > >> >>>>>>> guideline document: > >> >>>>>> "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow any third party to claim any association with the > >> >>>>>> Apache > >> >>>>>> Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval or support by ASF for any third party products or > >> >>>>>> services." > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Yes that's the point, I totally agree > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of sending out threatening emails. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list for one week? Do you really need to spark another one > >> >>>>>>> right > >> >>>>>>> now? > >> >>>>>>> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about lookin "bad", I just want justice. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Jacques > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Regards > >> >>>>>> Scott > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Scott, > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is irrelevant in my message? > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Jacques > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> > >> >>>>>>> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and I really would prefer it if you kept your > >> >>>>>>> thoughts > >> >>>>>>> to the > >> >>>>>>> private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring people away from marketing the project for us. > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Thank you > >> >>>>>>> Scott > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Hey guys, > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> This could be so easy :/ > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us to send him a demand. > >> >>>>>>>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account. > >> >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: > >> >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) > >> >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use > >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. > >> >>>>>>>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send > >> >>>>>>>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked > >> >>>>>>>> you > >> >>>>>>>> to send > >> >>>>>>>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans. > >> >>>>>>>> It's a > >> >>>>>>>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on feeding the tweets as you already suggested. > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also > >> >>>>>>>> shows > >> >>>>>>>> it on > >> >>>>>>>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and > >> >>>>>>>> similar) > >> >>>>>>>> graphic logos") > >> >>>>>>>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply also to > >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help > >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax > >> >>>>>>>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?) > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted > >> >>>>>>>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that > >> >>>>>>>> if > >> >>>>>>>> it's > >> >>>>>>>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ > >> >>>>>>>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if > >> >>>>>>>> all > >> >>>>>>>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong > >> >>>>>>>> also as > >> >>>>>>>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other > >> >>>>>>>> cases?) > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the rules, > >> >>>>>>>> if > >> >>>>>>>> you > >> >>>>>>>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty! > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so > >> >>>>>>>> much > >> >>>>>>>> time > >> >>>>>>>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party > >> >>>>>>>> (ie > >> >>>>>>>> not > >> >>>>>>>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts > >> >>>>>>>> they > >> >>>>>>>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being to show) and nobody will win anything. There are > >> >>>>>>>> rules, > >> >>>>>>>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard? > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Jacques > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]> > >> >>>>>>>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for all service providers to do this - so please > >> >>>>>>>>> let's > >> >>>>>>>>> not > >> >>>>>>>>> keep doing this stuff. > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it at all, would be to enhance the service providers > >> >>>>>>>>> page on > >> >>>>>>>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full page, linked from the service provider page, where > >> >>>>>>>>> people > >> >>>>>>>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own website is for, but I'm all for enhancing > >> >>>>>>>>> everyone's > >> >>>>>>>>> ability to get the word out. > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >> >>>>>>>>> Ruppert > >> >>>>>>>>> -- > >> >>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert > >> >>>>>>>>> HotWax Media > >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594 > >> >>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595 > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares they can push it. > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> This is news: > >> >>>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an > >> >>>>>>>>>>> enduser > >> >>>>>>>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. > >> >>>>>>>>>> A link to your home page is not: > >> >>>>>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an > >> >>>>>>>>>>> example.</a> > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea. > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> Regards > >> >>>>>>>>>> Scott > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> Author: hansbak > >> >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 > >> >>>>>>>>>>> New Revision: 919905 > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev > >> >>>>>>>>>>> Log: > >> >>>>>>>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news offerings. > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: > >> >>>>>>>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html > >> >>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff > >> >>>>>>>>>>> === === === ===================================================================== > >> >>>>>>>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) > >> >>>>>>>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 > >> >>>>>>>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> <ul> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, > >> >>>>>>>>>>> follow > >> >>>>>>>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this > >> >>>>>>>>>>> news, > >> >>>>>>>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a></li> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ " > >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF export</a> on <a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ " > >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV export</a> on <a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ " > >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list screen</a> on <a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > -- > > Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive rates > > > > Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive rates |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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In reply to this post by Jacques Le Roux
Hans,
Please keep to send about this subject to the dev community and not me alone. It finally looks like all this comes from misunderstanding, inline... From: "Hans Bakker" <[hidden email]> > Jacques, > > Ok i did not see he updated it. > > so now legal is no problem?? I really get confused, when legal is no > problem then i would like to know what were the reasons that the "follow > me" button was reverted? There would be no problems if, as I repeated many times, all commiters would have access to the account. > and why my twitter cannot be in the news? as i wrote in my email: Why not, I can see any problems with that, if, one more time, we (commiters) have all access. I think morevoer that the button you put 1st in header should stay (one more, time if we - commiters - have all access) > I still think that with this twitter feed i provide a service to casual > end users to keep them informed about the major topics in the project. > Like a blog what is often updated. I still do not understand why it > cannot be in the news section while other blogs are accepted there. No problems if it's the official OFBiz tweeter account. Some reasons: * the account name is Apache OFBiz these words are trademarks of the ASF http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/list/. So in this case (Tweeter account) it should be only used by the community in my opininon even if it's not part of a domain name. Tweeter has not been taken into account in the ASF jurisprudence yet. I hope we will not need to get some help from the legal and brand teams and we will get to a consensus inside the OFBiz community * there is (at least 2) uses of the official OFBiz logo. The official OFBiz logo should be only used to link to the OFBiz official site. Note that I consider the "OFBiz feather" you used independtly as an important part of the official OFBiz logo (we use it as favicon for instance) * Location Chiang mai, Thailand : this is not the Location of the ASF (if ever we need to mention it, I don't think so) * The bio looks like you still want to keep this account as your own, this should not be because of what I explained in the points above. Note that there are already 26 followers of this account http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/followers... > so now it really gets very strange.... > > it would be nice to have some answers to my questions. If they cannot be > answered i would like to see some apologies. I hope I answered Jacques > > Regards, > hans > > > > On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 11:02 +0100, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> Hans, >> >> I think as Tim said in the modified log of r920213 we are only waiting that you send us (committers) the credentials. >> >> For the news section, I think your 1st intend was better, and from what I have understood from Tim's comment he also agree. So my >> opininon is that as soon as all commiters will have an access to this Tweeter account, we could put back the "original Follow Us" >> (as Tim called it in the modified log of r920213) button in main site header and this issue would be closed. At this stage, do we >> really need to have a vote and all this kind of stuff? Personnally I don't think so. >> >> Maybe there is something that you don't like in this solution? Then could you please explain what? >> >> Thanks >> >> Jacques >> >> From: "Hans Bakker" <[hidden email]> >> > Jacques, >> > Let first see what Tims actions will result in. I did not sent any >> > passwords yet. >> > >> > It would also be interesting to know what the opinion of our new PMC >> > chair Jacopo is, he is awfully quiet. When we do not agree, he has to >> > take a decision. >> > >> > I still think that with this twitter feed i provide a service to casual >> > end users to keep them informed about the major topics in the project. >> > Like a blog what is often updated. I still do not understand why it >> > cannot be in the news section while other blogs are accepted there. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Hans >> > >> > On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 10:29 +0100, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >> David, >> >> >> >> Something has to be done because, to be clear, Hans was not taking into account our comments repeated 2 or 3 times. I tried >> >> this >> >> harsh way because I knew it will do something. As I said I did not like to do it and actually I was expecting some reactions. >> >> It seems that it's not a success so far because I have not received the credentials to http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz , but >> >> maybe >> >> other committers got it? >> >> >> >> Hans, I may help you if you need it and send you the list of commiters email addresses? Do you think this page/account is fair >> >> if >> >> we >> >> (commiters) have no access to it? >> >> >> >> One more time I think Hans had a good idea to create this account and put a button to it from the main page. It's only that it >> >> should be shared. OK, let's see what will happen... >> >> >> >> Jacques >> >> >> >> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]> >> >> > >> >> > I agree with you Tim, effective giving and responding to feedback is vitally important to successful collaboration and all >> >> > of >> >> > us >> >> > working together to build a strong community and make good software. Scott's response to my recent multi-tenant changes is a >> >> > great >> >> > example of such feedback, and hopefully I'll be able to respond to that feedback in a helpful way. >> >> > >> >> > That is a bit different than the issue here, which is that Jacques seemed to be trying to get people to do certain things >> >> > because >> >> > of rules. Confronting others on bad behavior or breaking rules is a good thing IMO, but this was going beyond that with a >> >> > specific >> >> > interpretation of the rules that didn't seem to fit and specific remedies to the indiscretions that also seemed somewhat >> >> > unhelpful >> >> > (ie getting into legal interpretations and remedies that are not consistent with what others understood of laws and ASF >> >> > policies), >> >> > and then going even beyond that to threaten an appeal to greater authority and possible legal action if the demands were not >> >> > met, >> >> > calling it all "justice". And yeah, I have a problem with that, hence my message to confront Jacques for that behavior. >> >> > >> >> > Stepping to back to really effective communication and problem solving, if I were to push anything I guess it would be to >> >> > read >> >> > the >> >> > book "Simpleology" by Mark Joyner. That book is full of excellent stuff about problem solving and collaborating with others. >> >> > >> >> > While I'm plugging books I can't help but mention "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig. It's a fun >> >> > read >> >> > and does the best job I've ever seen of dealing with the sometimes maddening topics of quality and subject/object >> >> > distinction >> >> > (some key elements of clear and useful thinking). Okay, that's only related to this topic so much, but I had to mention it. >> >> > This >> >> > makes me want to sit down and do some reading (or go for a walk and do some listening), but I guess I'm having too much fun >> >> > redesigning the foundation of my career (which has been cathartic and refreshing, sort of a Moqui ball like experience). >> >> > >> >> > -David >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> My real question would be why is it always "hurting" people to bring up that the rules as they have been defined have been >> >> >> broken >> >> >> again? What was done wasn't correct, people mentioned it nicely, but then that wasn't ok - and it goes from there. >> >> >> >> >> >> The simple process of someone breaking the rules or stretching the truth SHOULD be able to be brought up - and instead of >> >> >> defensiveness, it should be greeted with, "Man, I'm so sorry, let's look into that together." Instead, an innocuous >> >> >> request >> >> >> to >> >> >> revert something that doesn't follow the PMC guidelines - or anyone's for that matter - was met with resistance and a >> >> >> passive >> >> >> aggressive comment meant to say that the original committer felt attacked. >> >> >> >> >> >> I think you need to start there - figuring out ways to get people to not be defensive in the face of someone looking at >> >> >> their >> >> >> work - then you can get back to building up the process of having people work together. When someone cries wolf every time >> >> >> anyone else mentions anything about the work - instead of taking the initiative to engage in the dialog - then that's where >> >> >> this >> >> >> slippery slope starts. It really shouldn't go downhill when someone questioning a commit - that should happen MORE often >> >> >> IMO - >> >> >> and the project would be better for it. >> >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> Ruppert >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:16 PM, David E Jones wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Hmmmm... given the misunderstanding of other things I've written (seems to be from an incorrect guess at motives and goals >> >> >>> for >> >> >>> what I write), I guess we'll see how this goes. Maybe in advance I should say that my point is that "Justice" is not an >> >> >>> effective way to get people to do, or not do, something. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The type of justice you're talking about is not following the rules, it is trying to get other people to follow the rules. >> >> >>> Unfortunately justice efforts are usually not about restitution and are instead about punishment. And what is the point of >> >> >>> that >> >> >>> if not some form of revenge? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> People may feel better about being mean or harming others because the others have broken some rule, but I'd hardly say >> >> >>> that >> >> >>> justifies the meanness and harm, even if we do call that "justice". If there is a bad law do you feel an obligation to >> >> >>> follow >> >> >>> it, or do you feel justified in harming others because it allows you to? If so then you're in a group with most people in >> >> >>> the >> >> >>> world who think that they can blame their actions on those who make the rules or tell them to do (or not do) something. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Back to the point... how much use has that been here? Has it helped us all get along and collaborate to produce better >> >> >>> software? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -David >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> I have any revenge in this. Justice is "follow the rules". Who make the rules is another problem. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Jacques >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> From: "David E Jones" <[hidden email]> >> >> >>>>> What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a priority for people? >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly subjective and usually just a nice way of saying "revenge". >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> -David >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >> >> >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >> >> >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >> >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> This is a domain name: twitter.com >> >> >>>>>>> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or >> >> >>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >> >> >>>>>> and I'm >> >> >>>>>> happy with that. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and threatening to contact higher level ASF admins before >> >> >>>>>>> discussing >> >> >>>>>>> it on >> >> >>>>>>> the private list is bad form IMO. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been easier if you have kept them in your answer. Notably >> >> >>>>>> the >> >> >>>>>> name+logo >> >> >>>>>> on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I wrote this message. I must say that in an effort to not >> >> >>>>>> put >> >> >>>>>> all on >> >> >>>>>> this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider websites absolutely falls within the realm of nominative >> >> >>>>>>> fair >> >> >>>>>>> use IMO. >> >> >>>>>>> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for OFBiz if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and >> >> >>>>>>> display >> >> >>>>>>> the logo? >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else about that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a minor issue and can easily be rectified without >> >> >>>>>>> scaremongering by >> >> >>>>>>> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in question. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was the reason of my message. When you want justice, you >> >> >>>>>> can't >> >> >>>>>> hide >> >> >>>>>> facts, even minor ones. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we do not have the resources to do an adequate job of it >> >> >>>>>>> ourselves. >> >> >>>>>>> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and actively "police" is what is written at the bottom of the >> >> >>>>>>> ASF >> >> >>>>>>> guideline document: >> >> >>>>>> "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow any third party to claim any association with the >> >> >>>>>> Apache >> >> >>>>>> Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval or support by ASF for any third party products or >> >> >>>>>> services." >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Yes that's the point, I totally agree >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of sending out threatening emails. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list for one week? Do you really need to spark another one >> >> >>>>>>> right >> >> >>>>>>> now? >> >> >>>>>>> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about lookin "bad", I just want justice. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Jacques >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Regards >> >> >>>>>> Scott >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> Scott, >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is irrelevant in my message? >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> Jacques >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[hidden email]> >> >> >>>>>>> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and I really would prefer it if you kept your >> >> >>>>>>> thoughts >> >> >>>>>>> to the >> >> >>>>>>> private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring people away from marketing the project for us. >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> Thank you >> >> >>>>>>> Scott >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> Hey guys, >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> This could be so easy :/ >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us to send him a demand. >> >> >>>>>>>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter >> >> >>>>>>>> account. >> >> >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections of this page in the following) >> >> >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >> >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his company. >> >> >>>>>>>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply >> >> >>>>>>>> send >> >> >>>>>>>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked >> >> >>>>>>>> you >> >> >>>>>>>> to send >> >> >>>>>>>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). Then I suggest to put the button like you did >> >> >>>>>>>> Hans. >> >> >>>>>>>> It's a >> >> >>>>>>>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on feeding the tweets as you already suggested. >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also >> >> >>>>>>>> shows >> >> >>>>>>>> it on >> >> >>>>>>>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and >> >> >>>>>>>> similar) >> >> >>>>>>>> graphic logos") >> >> >>>>>>>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply also to >> >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >> >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax >> >> >>>>>>>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?) >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted >> >> >>>>>>>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is >> >> >>>>>>>> that >> >> >>>>>>>> if >> >> >>>>>>>> it's >> >> >>>>>>>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ >> >> >>>>>>>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok >> >> >>>>>>>> if >> >> >>>>>>>> all >> >> >>>>>>>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is >> >> >>>>>>>> wrong >> >> >>>>>>>> also as >> >> >>>>>>>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there >> >> >>>>>>>> other >> >> >>>>>>>> cases?) >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the >> >> >>>>>>>> rules, >> >> >>>>>>>> if >> >> >>>>>>>> you >> >> >>>>>>>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases that should be corrected, chime in, it's your >> >> >>>>>>>> duty! >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend >> >> >>>>>>>> so >> >> >>>>>>>> much >> >> >>>>>>>> time >> >> >>>>>>>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third >> >> >>>>>>>> party >> >> >>>>>>>> (ie >> >> >>>>>>>> not >> >> >>>>>>>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this >> >> >>>>>>>> facts >> >> >>>>>>>> they >> >> >>>>>>>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being to show) and nobody will win anything. There >> >> >>>>>>>> are >> >> >>>>>>>> rules, >> >> >>>>>>>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard? >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> Jacques >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[hidden email]> >> >> >>>>>>>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for all service providers to do this - so please >> >> >>>>>>>>> let's >> >> >>>>>>>>> not >> >> >>>>>>>>> keep doing this stuff. >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it at all, would be to enhance the service >> >> >>>>>>>>> providers >> >> >>>>>>>>> page on >> >> >>>>>>>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full page, linked from the service provider page, >> >> >>>>>>>>> where >> >> >>>>>>>>> people >> >> >>>>>>>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own website is for, but I'm all for enhancing >> >> >>>>>>>>> everyone's >> >> >>>>>>>>> ability to get the word out. >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >> >> >>>>>>>>> Ruppert >> >> >>>>>>>>> -- >> >> >>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert >> >> >>>>>>>>> HotWax Media >> >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594 >> >> >>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595 >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares they can push it. >> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> This is news: >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> an >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> enduser >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. >> >> >>>>>>>>>> A link to your home page is not: >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> example.</a> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea. >> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Regards >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Scott >> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [hidden email] wrote: >> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Author: hansbak >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> New Revision: 919905 >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Log: >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news offerings. >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> === === === ===================================================================== >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> <ul> >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> <b>TWITTER</b>, >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> follow >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. You can also promote OFBiz at your site with >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> this >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> news, >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com">here for an example.</a></li> >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ " >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF export</a> on <a >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ " >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV export</a> on <a >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ " >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list screen</a> on <a >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > -- >> > Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive rates >> > >> >> > -- > Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive rates > |
Re: svn commit: r919905 - /ofbiz/site/index.html
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In reply to this post by hans_bakker
On Mar 8, 2010, at 10:45 AM, Hans Bakker wrote:
> It would also be interesting to know what the opinion of our new PMC > chair Jacopo is, he is awfully quiet. When we do not agree, he has to > take a decision. We should all immediately stop to throw out in this public list incorrect statements about fictitious rules and policies: it is not a great example of professionalism as committers and PMC members if we clearly demonstrate that we don't even take the time to read the few small pages that describe how things in the Apache Software Foundation actually work, and also pretend to know how things are supposed to work. A mandatory reading is this: http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html Of course we should all already have studied it in great detail, but this is clearly and sadly untrue. Since I start to loose my faith that you will ready this, here is a small part of it: =================================== The PMC as a whole is the entity that controls the project, nobody else. The Chair of a Project Management Committee (PMC) is appointed by the Board from the PMC Members. The PMC as a whole is the entity that controls and leads the project. The Chair is the interface between the Board and the Project. =================================== You want me to take decisions to resolve this fight? It is easy to resolve, but it doesn't require me becoming a dictator. The ASF voting policies already clearly explain what needs to be done: =================================== Votes on code modifications follow a different model. In this scenario, a negative vote constitutes a veto, which cannot be overridden. =================================== Since this incident was originated by your commit, and since Scott is a PMC member whose vote is binding and since he clearly objected to your commit... you should now know what you *had* to do. That was easy, wasn't it? Just a matter of reading rules that you should have read when you became a PMC member, a lot of time ago. Kind regards, Jacopo |
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