Users - Looking at using OFBiz; A few general Questions

[RPT-2]

Hi,

We need to set up a slightly more complex than usual eCommerce web site that will consist of multiple 'stores', which will allow singular searches across multiple store databases, handle email obfuscation between customers and suppliers, as well as quite a few other technical and aesthetic customisations.  My partner has been looking the php package OSCommerce, but as I have some programming ability with java and have developed some java server side app's in the past I thought I'd look at what was available in java.

 

I must admit compared to OSCommerce, OFBiz has been significantly more difficult to both download, build and get running (I had problems for ages because I was running Java 1.5 and had to hunt through forums and the such for quite a while before I found out that OFbiz only currently supports 1.4 (THEY SHOULD HAVE THIS IN BIG LETTERS IN THEIR INTALLATION HELP FILES ! heh). 

 

   I finally now have the demo of OFBiz built and running but I am still quite confused about many things. I notice that there all sorts of files that I am unfamiliar with such as .ftl and .bsh files (what are they? they look like html/jsp and java files but why the different extensions?)

 

To be honest I am feeling a bit overwhelmed looking at OFbiz, really what I wanted was just something modular that I could copy over to my tomcat server (we are already running tomcat integrated with Apache Webserver and MySQL) one piece at a time starting with the eCommerce package, and then adding the other bits (such as account processing, supplier html online db management, merchant banking facilities, back end accounting, email obfuscation processing etc) as I needed them (customising as I go).  But, from what I have seen of OFBiz so far (admittedly only a very cursory look), it seems its really designed to be installed 'in total' and the bits you don’t use, you just don’t enable?! (Which as I said makes things seem very big and complex).

 

Also from the customisation point of view I note (from a brief look at some of the help files) that OFBiz is built utilising a significant number of standard, 3rd party (other Open source), and custom API's and Frameworks. And also has multiple complex Conceptual Models and Code Models, and as I have little experience with things such as JNDI, Java XML integration etc etc I am honestly wondering weather the whole thing is just going to be WAY too time intensive and steep a learning curve.

 

If I am mistaken and OFBiz can be separated into, and addressed in a modular manner, and developed and deployed one major module at a time, if anyone could point to a guide that explains this development/deployment path I'd me most appreciative.

 

Sorry this post is a bit disorganised, but any inline comments to any of the issues I’ve raised would be much appreciated.

 

Kind regards

 

Cosmic.

-------------------

Robert Peter Taylor

 

 
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[Ian Gilbert]

Hi Peter,

I'll answer the bits that I can inline ...

On Mon, January 23, 2006 13:23, RPT wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>...
>
> I finally now have the demo of OFBiz built and running but I am still
> quite confused about many things. I notice that there all sorts of files
> that I am unfamiliar with such as .ftl and .bsh files (what are they?
> they look like html/jsp and java files but why the different extensions?)

ftl files are the presentation files and allow for rapid modification of
the user interface.  They work in tandem with the beanshell files which
handle the business logic.  Beanshell (http://www.beanshell.org/) is quite
similar to java whilst ftl (http://www.freemarker.org/) is similar to
html.

>
>
>
> To be honest I am feeling a bit overwhelmed looking at OFbiz, really what
> I
> wanted was just something modular that I could copy over to my tomcat
> server (we are already running tomcat integrated with Apache Webserver and
> MySQL)
> one piece at a time starting with the eCommerce package, and then adding
> the other bits (such as account processing, supplier html online db
> management, merchant banking facilities, back end accounting, email
> obfuscation processing etc) as I needed them (customising as I go).  But,
> from what I have seen of OFBiz so far (admittedly only a very cursory
> look), it seems its really designed to be installed 'in total' and the
> bits you don't use, you just don't enable?! (Which as I said makes things
> seem very big and complex).

I think that this is a good summary.  There is lots of functionality in
Ofbiz and it has lots of 'hooks' for interacting with other applications
if required but it does require a bit of looking at and work to get the
most out of it.  I found Si Chens work
(http://www.opensourcestrategies.com/ofbiz/tutorials.php) EXTREMELY useful
in getting up to speed on this and there are also a range of training
videos and user docs available thru the Ofbiz site.  It is not a simple
package but is tremendously powerful and I think of it as a 'business
management' package rather than an ecommerce package.  If you just want a
web store then  it is probably overkill.

>
>
...

I hope that this is useful.  I'm sure others will pick up on things I've
missed.

Best wishes

Ian Gilbert

 
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[Si Chen-2]

Robert,

You should understand that OSCommerce and OFBiz are fundamentally
different products. OSCommerce is a shopping cart for basic online store
functionality. OFBiz is a large-scale enterprise application project
that can be used for ERP, CRM, warehouse management, manufacturing,
supply chain, document management, logistics, etc. OFBiz also comes with
an integrated POS, can be deployed across multiple locations, multiple
stores, in multiple tax jurisdictions, etc.

BTW, which installation help file were you looking through?

Si

RPT wrote:

> Hi,
>
> We need to set up a slightly more complex than usual eCommerce web
> site that will consist of multiple /'stores'/, which will allow
> singular searches across multiple store databases, handle email
> obfuscation between customers and suppliers, as well as quite a few
> other technical and aesthetic customisations. My partner has been
> looking the php package *_OSCommerce_*, but as I have some programming
> ability with java and have developed some java server side app's in
> the past I thought I'd look at what was available in java.
>
> I must admit compared to *_OSCommerce_,* *_OFBiz_* has been
> significantly more difficult to both download, build and get running
> (I had problems for ages because I was running Java 1.5 and had to
> hunt through forums and the such for quite a while before I found out
> that *_OFbiz_* only currently supports 1.4 (/THEY SHOULD HAVE THIS IN
> BIG LETTERS IN THEIR INTALLATION HELP FILES ! heh/).
>
> I finally now have the demo of OFBiz built and running but I am still
> quite confused about many things. I notice that there all sorts of
> files that I am unfamiliar with such as *.ftl* and *.bsh* files (what
> are they? they look like html/jsp and java files but why the different
> extensions?)
>
> To be honest I am feeling a bit overwhelmed looking at *OFbiz*, really
> what I wanted was just something modular that I could copy over to my
> tomcat server /(we are already running *tomcat* integrated with
> *Apache Webserver* and *MySQL*)/ one piece at a time starting with the
> eCommerce package, and then adding the other bits /(such as account
> processing, supplier html online db management, merchant banking
> facilities, back end accounting, email obfuscation processing etc)/ as
> I needed them /(customising as I go)/. But, from what I have seen of
> *OFBiz* so far /(admittedly only a very cursory look)/, it seems its
> really designed to be installed 'in total' and the bits you don’t use,
> you just don’t enable?! (Which as I said makes things seem very big
> and complex).
>
> Also from the customisation point of view I note (from a brief look at
> some of the help files) that *OFBiz* is built utilising a significant
> number of standard, 3rd party (other Open source), and custom API's
> and Frameworks. And also has multiple complex *Conceptual Models* and
> *Code Models,* and as I have little experience with things such as
> *JNDI*, *Java XML integration* etc etc I am honestly wondering weather
> the whole thing is just going to be WAY too time intensive and steep a
> learning curve.
>
> If I am mistaken and *OFBiz* can be separated into, and addressed in a
> modular manner, and developed and deployed one major module at a time,
> if anyone could point to a guide that explains this
> development/deployment path I'd me most appreciative.
>
> Sorry this post is a bit disorganised, but any inline comments to any
> of the issues I’ve raised would be much appreciated.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Cosmic.
>
> -------------------
>
> Robert Peter Taylor
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Users mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>

 
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[hidden email]
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[RPT-2]

Hi Si,

        Thanks for the reply, the first document I looked at was 'Getting
and Using OFBiz', and yes I know that it does mention needing java 1.4 ...
But sadly a lot of us 'newbs' assume that means anything 1.4 or after.  And
in fact I didn’t even consider the possibility of it being an SDK version
problem until I found a Google reference linking the class not found error I
was having and the version issue. The other document I read (well skimmed)
was 'Basic OFBiz Production Setup' which I believe has no mention of SDK
versions at all.

        Regarding your other comments, yes I realise that OFBiz is in a
totally different league to products such as OSCommerce, and I was in no way
drawing comparisons (well other than with ease of download, and
installation).  While the primary purpose of our project will be eCommerce,
having the functionality of integrated front and back of house accounting,
and the ability to build other app's (such as the ability to remove contact
details in emails between suppliers and customers etc) would certainly be
useful.  But I am still left with my original questions, especially the time
commitment necessary and learning curve to even begin to seriously customise
this product.  I wont repeat what I have already asked/written but if you or
any others would like to comment on the other issues I raised in my original
post that would be great.

        Thanks very much again for your reply

Cosmic
--------------------
Robert Peter Taylor.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
On Behalf Of Si Chen
Sent: Tuesday, 24 January 2006 3:17 AM
To: OFBiz Users / Usage Discussion
Subject: Re: [OFBiz] Users - Looking at using OFBiz; A few general Questions

Robert,

You should understand that OSCommerce and OFBiz are fundamentally different
products. OSCommerce is a shopping cart for basic online store
functionality. OFBiz is a large-scale enterprise application project that
can be used for ERP, CRM, warehouse management, manufacturing, supply chain,
document management, logistics, etc. OFBiz also comes with an integrated
POS, can be deployed across multiple locations, multiple stores, in multiple
tax jurisdictions, etc.

BTW, which installation help file were you looking through?

Si


-----Original Message-----

RPT wrote:

> Hi,
>
> We need to set up a <Snip> (see original post) ....

 
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[David E. Jones]

If you want to do a lot of customization with OFBiz, count on a bit  
of a learning curve. It sounds like you have a basic knowledge of  
Enterprise Java stuff, and that will help as you start getting into  
tools like FTL that are alternatives to more familiar things like  
JSPs (or Velocity and that sort of thing if you have experience there).

With training people usually get an idea of how to use the framework  
after a few days and after a couple of months tend to be pretty  
comfortable and self sufficient with it. Still, the far more  
difficult part is usually the stuff on the applications layer. While  
that can take a long time to get comfortable with, once you  
understand the structure of things you can usually research things  
pretty quickly to find the details you need to reuse and refactor  
things.

If you have good OFBiz experience it is possible to get a site up for  
fairly cheap (we do basic production site setups for as low as  
$1000), but if you are planning on doing a lot of customization  
yourself and don't have experience with these things it may not work  
out too well.

To make things tougher things that are "standard" and should be  
reliable can be incredible tricky to deal with. For example, the fact  
that the 1.5 series JVMs are _not_ backward compatible with the 1.4  
series JVMs is causing a lot of grief in the world of Java. Many of  
these things are API changes and such and are in my opinion not  
totally worth the price of losing backward compatibility. It makes it  
almost impossible to write code in certain areas that works in 1.4  
and 1.5. For an high level project like OFBiz it is a mess because we  
use a lot of other libraries and we can't really move to 1.5 until  
those are all working in 1.5. What is worse is that once we do move  
to 1.5 we may not be able to keep things working in 1.4 without code  
changes or conditional compilations or something. Still, I haven't  
really tried this yet so I'm not sure what will be necessary. This is  
one of the many complications in the Java world that makes this sort  
of software more difficult to work with, and another thing that isn't  
a big deal for those who are familiar with the issue, but for  
everyone else it is a pain and takes time and effort from more  
important things. We try to insulate people from a lot of these sorts  
of issues with helpful default and features in the tools in the  
framework, but there is only so much that can be done...

Still, feedback is appreciated and hopefully at some point in the  
future more resources will be available to make OFBiz easier to use  
out of the box and such. At some points in the past this has  
happened, and it is a LOT easier than it was a couple of years ago,  
but it is difficult because by its very nature the business level  
requirements are so complex (which one often doesn't discover until  
digging into it, and from a technical background it can be a bit of a  
shock, a month to be comfortable with the technical part and often at  
least a year for the business side... though usually you only need a  
very small part of that to function).

-David


On Jan 23, 2006, at 11:01 AM, RPT wrote:

> Hi Si,
>
> Thanks for the reply, the first document I looked at was 'Getting
> and Using OFBiz', and yes I know that it does mention needing java  
> 1.4 ...
> But sadly a lot of us 'newbs' assume that means anything 1.4 or  
> after.  And
> in fact I didn’t even consider the possibility of it being an SDK  
> version
> problem until I found a Google reference linking the class not  
> found error I
> was having and the version issue. The other document I read (well  
> skimmed)
> was 'Basic OFBiz Production Setup' which I believe has no mention  
> of SDK
> versions at all.
>
> Regarding your other comments, yes I realise that OFBiz is in a
> totally different league to products such as OSCommerce, and I was  
> in no way
> drawing comparisons (well other than with ease of download, and
> installation).  While the primary purpose of our project will be  
> eCommerce,
> having the functionality of integrated front and back of house  
> accounting,
> and the ability to build other app's (such as the ability to remove  
> contact
> details in emails between suppliers and customers etc) would  
> certainly be
> useful.  But I am still left with my original questions, especially  
> the time
> commitment necessary and learning curve to even begin to seriously  
> customise
> this product.  I wont repeat what I have already asked/written but  
> if you or
> any others would like to comment on the other issues I raised in my  
> original
> post that would be great.
>
> Thanks very much again for your reply
>
> Cosmic
> --------------------
> Robert Peter Taylor.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:users-
> [hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Si Chen
> Sent: Tuesday, 24 January 2006 3:17 AM
> To: OFBiz Users / Usage Discussion
> Subject: Re: [OFBiz] Users - Looking at using OFBiz; A few general  
> Questions
>
> Robert,
>
> You should understand that OSCommerce and OFBiz are fundamentally  
> different
> products. OSCommerce is a shopping cart for basic online store
> functionality. OFBiz is a large-scale enterprise application  
> project that
> can be used for ERP, CRM, warehouse management, manufacturing,  
> supply chain,
> document management, logistics, etc. OFBiz also comes with an  
> integrated
> POS, can be deployed across multiple locations, multiple stores, in  
> multiple
> tax jurisdictions, etc.
>
> BTW, which installation help file were you looking through?
>
> Si
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> RPT wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> We need to set up a <Snip> (see original post) ....
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/236 - Release Date:  
> 20-01-2006
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users

 
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[Si Chen-2]

Robert,

I'm honestly not sure how easy it would be for someone new to get
familiar with OFBiz.  I wish I did--that would make my life a lot easier!

Why don't you read the tutorials, at least about the architecture and
high-level processes, and see if you like it?  If you like and are
reasonably technically inclined, you'll probably figure it out.  If you
don't even like the way the applications are architected, then you
probably won't go very far with it.

"In the long run the sword is always beaten by the mind" - Napoleon
Bonaparte

Si

David E. Jones wrote:

>
> If you want to do a lot of customization with OFBiz, count on a bit  
> of a learning curve. It sounds like you have a basic knowledge of  
> Enterprise Java stuff, and that will help as you start getting into  
> tools like FTL that are alternatives to more familiar things like  
> JSPs (or Velocity and that sort of thing if you have experience there).
>
> With training people usually get an idea of how to use the framework  
> after a few days and after a couple of months tend to be pretty  
> comfortable and self sufficient with it. Still, the far more  
> difficult part is usually the stuff on the applications layer. While  
> that can take a long time to get comfortable with, once you  
> understand the structure of things you can usually research things  
> pretty quickly to find the details you need to reuse and refactor  
> things.
>
> If you have good OFBiz experience it is possible to get a site up for  
> fairly cheap (we do basic production site setups for as low as  
> $1000), but if you are planning on doing a lot of customization  
> yourself and don't have experience with these things it may not work  
> out too well.
>
> To make things tougher things that are "standard" and should be  
> reliable can be incredible tricky to deal with. For example, the fact  
> that the 1.5 series JVMs are _not_ backward compatible with the 1.4  
> series JVMs is causing a lot of grief in the world of Java. Many of  
> these things are API changes and such and are in my opinion not  
> totally worth the price of losing backward compatibility. It makes it  
> almost impossible to write code in certain areas that works in 1.4  
> and 1.5. For an high level project like OFBiz it is a mess because we  
> use a lot of other libraries and we can't really move to 1.5 until  
> those are all working in 1.5. What is worse is that once we do move  
> to 1.5 we may not be able to keep things working in 1.4 without code  
> changes or conditional compilations or something. Still, I haven't  
> really tried this yet so I'm not sure what will be necessary. This is  
> one of the many complications in the Java world that makes this sort  
> of software more difficult to work with, and another thing that isn't  
> a big deal for those who are familiar with the issue, but for  
> everyone else it is a pain and takes time and effort from more  
> important things. We try to insulate people from a lot of these sorts  
> of issues with helpful default and features in the tools in the  
> framework, but there is only so much that can be done...
>
> Still, feedback is appreciated and hopefully at some point in the  
> future more resources will be available to make OFBiz easier to use  
> out of the box and such. At some points in the past this has  
> happened, and it is a LOT easier than it was a couple of years ago,  
> but it is difficult because by its very nature the business level  
> requirements are so complex (which one often doesn't discover until  
> digging into it, and from a technical background it can be a bit of a  
> shock, a month to be comfortable with the technical part and often at  
> least a year for the business side... though usually you only need a  
> very small part of that to function).
>
> -David
>
>
> On Jan 23, 2006, at 11:01 AM, RPT wrote:
>
>> Hi Si,
>>
>>     Thanks for the reply, the first document I looked at was 'Getting
>> and Using OFBiz', and yes I know that it does mention needing java  
>> 1.4 ...
>> But sadly a lot of us 'newbs' assume that means anything 1.4 or  
>> after.  And
>> in fact I didn’t even consider the possibility of it being an SDK  
>> version
>> problem until I found a Google reference linking the class not  found
>> error I
>> was having and the version issue. The other document I read (well  
>> skimmed)
>> was 'Basic OFBiz Production Setup' which I believe has no mention  of
>> SDK
>> versions at all.
>>
>>     Regarding your other comments, yes I realise that OFBiz is in a
>> totally different league to products such as OSCommerce, and I was  
>> in no way
>> drawing comparisons (well other than with ease of download, and
>> installation).  While the primary purpose of our project will be  
>> eCommerce,
>> having the functionality of integrated front and back of house  
>> accounting,
>> and the ability to build other app's (such as the ability to remove  
>> contact
>> details in emails between suppliers and customers etc) would  
>> certainly be
>> useful.  But I am still left with my original questions, especially  
>> the time
>> commitment necessary and learning curve to even begin to seriously  
>> customise
>> this product.  I wont repeat what I have already asked/written but  
>> if you or
>> any others would like to comment on the other issues I raised in my  
>> original
>> post that would be great.
>>
>>     Thanks very much again for your reply
>>
>> Cosmic
>> --------------------
>> Robert Peter Taylor.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:users-
>> [hidden email]]
>> On Behalf Of Si Chen
>> Sent: Tuesday, 24 January 2006 3:17 AM
>> To: OFBiz Users / Usage Discussion
>> Subject: Re: [OFBiz] Users - Looking at using OFBiz; A few general  
>> Questions
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>> You should understand that OSCommerce and OFBiz are fundamentally  
>> different
>> products. OSCommerce is a shopping cart for basic online store
>> functionality. OFBiz is a large-scale enterprise application  project
>> that
>> can be used for ERP, CRM, warehouse management, manufacturing,  
>> supply chain,
>> document management, logistics, etc. OFBiz also comes with an  
>> integrated
>> POS, can be deployed across multiple locations, multiple stores, in  
>> multiple
>> tax jurisdictions, etc.
>>
>> BTW, which installation help file were you looking through?
>>
>> Si
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> RPT wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> We need to set up a <Snip> (see original post) ....
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/236 - Release Date:  
>> 20-01-2006
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Users mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://lists.ofbiz.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>

 
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Users mailing list
[hidden email]
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