release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
 
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Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Please search the mail achieves. Recently a discussion was going on for
this topic. You will get all your questions sorted out. Thanks! -- Vivek Mishra Olindo Pindaro wrote: > What is the difference beetween this 2 branches? > > TNX > |
smime.p7s (4K)
Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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-1 for starting with OFBiz 4.0 release.
Instead of this I will recommend to start with either Release branch 9.04 or trunk and report any bug found. The main reason of my recommendation is that the beginner document(http://docs.ofbiz.org/x/UBE) and some other document best support to Release Branch 9.04 & trunk. PS: "4.x trunk release" - Ruth, If I am not wrong "trunk" word is used for the repository on which current development is going on. -- Regards Ashish Vijaywargiya HotWax Media Pvt. Ltd. http://www.hotwaxmedia.com Helping hand around the World ... USA | Italy | India | New Zealand Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hello Olindo: > IMHO - and not to ruffle any feathers - there are a number of minor > but very visible bugs (mostly in the presentation layer) in the 9.04 > release that could easily discourage and frustrate a first time user. > I found this out the hard way while trying to use the 9.04 release as > a basis for screen shots in my 2 books (and for the myofbiz.com website.) > > My advice for what it is worth: if you are a beginner, start with the > 4.x trunk release (it's rock solid and proven) and then, when you > understand how OFBiz should work, move on to 9.04 if needed. > > Again, > Just my 2 cents. > Ruth > > Olindo Pindaro wrote: >> What is the difference beetween this 2 branches? >> >> TNX >> |
Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Being a test-first, test-driven community would still be the best way
to avoid that. Until we take a stance and reject everything that doesn't do this, then I guess I'd have to agree with David that the community must not care. The fact this project has gotten this far along without doing this is amazing and a testament to the tools (and the people) that have been put in place being helpful enough to make it so these major flaws don't happen very often. I'm looking forward to that being a major shift in the way contributions and work is committed to the project - I think it would do worlds of good. Cheers, Ruppert -- Tim Ruppert HotWax Media http://www.hotwaxmedia.com o:801.649.6594 f:801.649.6595 On Sep 24, 2009, at 11:46 AM, David E Jones wrote: > > It really is a bad sign. In a community driven project what this > means is that no one cares enough about it to do anything about > it... and I guess that's sad. Too much committing without testing, > or even running, things. Too much not caring about existing > functionality and creating new things that steamroll and break > existing things. All in all, the stuff I tried to guide away from > when I wrote the stuff here in the General Responsibilities of > Committers: > > http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/OFBiz+Committers+Roles+and+Responsibilities > > Like I've said recently on another topic... if no one else cares > what can I do about it? I guess like everyone else I'll just keep > doing my own thing... and collaborate with others when I can, and > when they'll let me. > > -David > > > On Sep 24, 2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > >> Hi David: >> Thanks for your comments. As usually, they are well thought out and >> invaluable in helping furthering the understanding of the OFBiz >> project. IMHO, project releases are a really important concern for >> new users. By new users, I mean new users of the many and varied >> applications that come with the OFBiz distribution. Maybe we could >> call these users new "end-users". I don't mean users intent on >> building new applications and/or modifying existing project files >> (i.e. Java code, CSS, HTML, Javascript, Groovy, XML etc.). New >> users may get to a point where they feel compelled to modify >> project files...but I suggest we don't put the cart before the horse. >> >> Please see my comments below: >> >> David E Jones wrote: >>> >>> I wouldn't say release4.0 or release09.04 have "been proven either >>> through formal release management practices or through actual >>> experience in the field." In fact, 4.0 was a much more arbitrary >>> cutoff point and not planned or acted on as much as 09.04. >>> >> OK, point well taken. Maybe I should have said "...through time in >> service..."? Regardless, the applications as they exist in the 4.x >> release work. Maybe the framework is not as advanced as the current >> trunk or 9.04 release, but the demo store works and the supporting >> applications work. >> >> Just out of curiosity, have there been any bugs reported after the >> 9.04 branch, that would make me believe that the Catalog Manager, >> Order Manager and eCommerce component are not stable and reliable >> in the 4.x release? >>> You mentioned issues in 09.04, could you be more specific? >>> Unfortunately I think many issues are related to the theme, >> Yes - themes seem to be problematic. And, since the very first >> encounter with OFBiz out-of-the-box is the presentation as rendered >> by the theme - I think there is a big issue here. In fact, IMHO >> this is what we use to call a "show stopper" and makes the release >> unstable. Doesn't matter how good the underlying product is, first >> impressions always count. Again, this is just my opinion. >> >> Back to themes: not only are themes problematic, I would point out >> the documentation concerning how to work around theme based issues >> with the flatgrey theme was vague and contradictory (as was >> discussed here on this mailing list.) >>> and pretty or not it really does cause problems and it's probably >>> better to use it with the old flatgrey theme. There could >>> certainly be other problems, but in general I'd say 09.04 is more >>> solid and certainly much more feature complete. >>> >> How about Jira #2602 - the very first thing you see when you start >> up the demo store is broken (in my book and in my browser). Sorry, >> but this does not bode well for the remainder of the demonstration >> and for a successful outcome should one be a new user testing the >> waters. >>> As far as "ad advertised" goes, I wasn't aware there was anything >>> advertised either way... ;) >> Exactly my point! Its all implied. And since we have nothing else >> to work with, older is better in this case. >>> One nice thing about 09.04 is that the business processes are much >>> more complete. In other words you can run through a business >>> process and not find the big functional gaps that exist in 4.0. A >>> LOT happened in the 2 years between the two releases, and probably >>> around 50 man-years of effort went into things. >> Actually, the devil is in the details. I'm not "dissing" 50 man- >> years of work, but how many years of work went into the code base >> prior to the 9.x release? And how many implementations are there of >> 4.x code vs. trunk releases since the branch? >>> This really isn't a small difference. When doing gap analysis >>> based on a set of requirements I haven't seen any business looking >>> for anything, ever, where the feature set of 4.0 would hit even >>> close to the percentage of overlap that 09.04 does. >> That is good to know. Sounds like OFBiz is moving in the right >> direction. >>> Whatever the case, depending on the circumstances I'd still >>> recommend going with the trunk. For reasons we've discussed before >>> in many cases the trunk is actually more bug-free than any release >>> branch as long as you stay updated with it, of course with the >>> release branches you have to stay updated with them too if you >>> want bug fixes (ie that is the "patching" process for them and >>> it's BAD BAD BAD to not update when using the release branches). >>> >> I guess this is where we differ. I'd say a new user - out to kick >> the tires - is not interested in updating or reporting bugs. They >> just want to get started with a minimum of frustration and a >> maximum of success. >>> That said, the basic idea behind the releases and what to choose >>> still holds pretty true, and the release branches are definitely >>> more "stable" (meaning they don't change, not meaning more bug- >>> free, but it does help some with that), see the "How Do I Decide >>> What To Use" section here: >>> >>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/Apache+OFBiz+Getting+Started >>> >>> -David >>> >>> >>> On Sep 24, 2009, at 9:49 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Jacques: >>>> I understand and respect where both of you are coming from. But I >>>> think you need to consider that for new users (and this is only >>>> for new users), they should be guided towards using a stable, >>>> proven release. The 4.x release is the only release that is >>>> proven and works out-of-the-box as advertised. >>>> >>>> Your reference to beginner documentation aside (and, BTW, this is >>>> developer documentation not end-user documentation), I can't in >>>> good conscience suggest to anyone to use code that hasn't been >>>> proven either through formal release management practices or >>>> through actual experience in the field. >>>> >>>> Just my 2 cents. >>>> Ruth >>>> >>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>> I totally agree with Ashish (not surprising) but Ruth is also >>>>> right to say that we have still some bugs in R9.04, but it's >>>>> improving day after day and have a lot more features and a >>>>> better architecture. For instance there is still issues with >>>>> Minerva in R4. And IMO, the main reason is you will not get much >>>>> help (if any) from the community with R4. We are almost all >>>>> turned to the future, not the past... >>>>> >>>>> Jacques >>>>> >>>>> From: "Ashish Vijaywargiya" <[hidden email]> >>>>>> -1 for starting with OFBiz 4.0 release. >>>>>> Instead of this I will recommend to start with either Release >>>>>> branch 9.04 or trunk and report any bug found. >>>>>> The main reason of my recommendation is that the beginner >>>>>> document(http://docs.ofbiz.org/x/UBE) and some other document >>>>>> best support to Release Branch 9.04 & trunk. >>>>>> >>>>>> PS: "4.x trunk release" - Ruth, If I am not wrong "trunk" word >>>>>> is used for the repository on which current development is >>>>>> going on. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Ashish Vijaywargiya >>>>>> HotWax Media Pvt. Ltd. >>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Helping hand around the World ... >>>>>> USA | Italy | India | New Zealand >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>>>>> Hello Olindo: >>>>>>> IMHO - and not to ruffle any feathers - there are a number of >>>>>>> minor but very visible bugs (mostly in the presentation layer) >>>>>>> in the 9.04 release that could easily discourage and frustrate >>>>>>> a first time user. I found this out the hard way while trying >>>>>>> to use the 9.04 release as a basis for screen shots in my 2 >>>>>>> books (and for the myofbiz.com website.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My advice for what it is worth: if you are a beginner, start >>>>>>> with the 4.x trunk release (it's rock solid and proven) and >>>>>>> then, when you understand how OFBiz should work, move on to >>>>>>> 9.04 if needed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Again, >>>>>>> Just my 2 cents. >>>>>>> Ruth >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Olindo Pindaro wrote: >>>>>>>> What is the difference beetween this 2 branches? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> TNX >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> > |
Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Understood David - but where are these magical elves that come by and
test the entire system? They don't exist - that's the fact of the matter - or we'd see more business users sitting here and putting tests in place for the stuff that already exists. For my money, it goes back to putting tests around what you're doing so that you know that when someone else makes a change it doesn't break your functionality. Unfortunately it would require tests everywhere - something to aspire to for sure - to ensure you didn't break other people's work - but if they cared enough about their code working, then tests and reproduceability steps would seem a must to everyone. Hopefully more people will get involved in doing it on the existing functionality. Manually testing a system of this size, watching each and every commit that people do and tracking down the places where that commit could cause problems is something that we do for the good of the community, but as you know better than most, it relies on expert level people - not just anyone. If there were more tests, then anyone could add code and know that they needn't be scared about it. Since there aren't, I guess I'll either hire more elves or hope that other people start to contribute at this level as well. Cheers, Ruppert On Sep 24, 2009, at 12:04 PM, David E Jones wrote: > > There are other ways to do this without requiring automated tests > for everything. > > For example, if someone cares about quality or more specifically > about a particular thing working a particular way, what is stopping > them from writing and contributing an automated test for it? > > In other words, there's no reason that the same people have to do > implementation of functionality and test cases, and IMO if anyone > blames a developer and is unwilling to do anything about it, that is > just an excuse and an attempt to avoid taking responsibility and > getting involved. > > The general idea is we need to do things that encourage more > contribution, not less. Requiring automated tests for everything > committed would likely reduce contributions. Encouraging people who > care about things working in a certain way to contribute automated > tests for those things would, hopefully, increase contributions. > > -David > > > On Sep 24, 2009, at 11:59 AM, Tim Ruppert wrote: > >> Being a test-first, test-driven community would still be the best >> way to avoid that. Until we take a stance and reject everything >> that doesn't do this, then I guess I'd have to agree with David >> that the community must not care. The fact this project has gotten >> this far along without doing this is amazing and a testament to the >> tools (and the people) that have been put in place being helpful >> enough to make it so these major flaws don't happen very often. >> >> I'm looking forward to that being a major shift in the way >> contributions and work is committed to the project - I think it >> would do worlds of good. >> >> Cheers, >> Ruppert >> -- >> Tim Ruppert >> HotWax Media >> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >> >> o:801.649.6594 >> f:801.649.6595 >> >> On Sep 24, 2009, at 11:46 AM, David E Jones wrote: >> >>> >>> It really is a bad sign. In a community driven project what this >>> means is that no one cares enough about it to do anything about >>> it... and I guess that's sad. Too much committing without testing, >>> or even running, things. Too much not caring about existing >>> functionality and creating new things that steamroll and break >>> existing things. All in all, the stuff I tried to guide away from >>> when I wrote the stuff here in the General Responsibilities of >>> Committers: >>> >>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/OFBiz+Committers+Roles+and+Responsibilities >>> >>> Like I've said recently on another topic... if no one else cares >>> what can I do about it? I guess like everyone else I'll just keep >>> doing my own thing... and collaborate with others when I can, and >>> when they'll let me. >>> >>> -David >>> >>> >>> On Sep 24, 2009, at 11:23 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>> >>>> Hi David: >>>> Thanks for your comments. As usually, they are well thought out >>>> and invaluable in helping furthering the understanding of the >>>> OFBiz project. IMHO, project releases are a really important >>>> concern for new users. By new users, I mean new users of the many >>>> and varied applications that come with the OFBiz distribution. >>>> Maybe we could call these users new "end-users". I don't mean >>>> users intent on building new applications and/or modifying >>>> existing project files (i.e. Java code, CSS, HTML, Javascript, >>>> Groovy, XML etc.). New users may get to a point where they feel >>>> compelled to modify project files...but I suggest we don't put >>>> the cart before the horse. >>>> >>>> Please see my comments below: >>>> >>>> David E Jones wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I wouldn't say release4.0 or release09.04 have "been proven >>>>> either through formal release management practices or through >>>>> actual experience in the field." In fact, 4.0 was a much more >>>>> arbitrary cutoff point and not planned or acted on as much as >>>>> 09.04. >>>>> >>>> OK, point well taken. Maybe I should have said "...through time >>>> in service..."? Regardless, the applications as they exist in the >>>> 4.x release work. Maybe the framework is not as advanced as the >>>> current trunk or 9.04 release, but the demo store works and the >>>> supporting applications work. >>>> >>>> Just out of curiosity, have there been any bugs reported after >>>> the 9.04 branch, that would make me believe that the Catalog >>>> Manager, Order Manager and eCommerce component are not stable and >>>> reliable in the 4.x release? >>>>> You mentioned issues in 09.04, could you be more specific? >>>>> Unfortunately I think many issues are related to the theme, >>>> Yes - themes seem to be problematic. And, since the very first >>>> encounter with OFBiz out-of-the-box is the presentation as >>>> rendered by the theme - I think there is a big issue here. In >>>> fact, IMHO this is what we use to call a "show stopper" and makes >>>> the release unstable. Doesn't matter how good the underlying >>>> product is, first impressions always count. Again, this is just >>>> my opinion. >>>> >>>> Back to themes: not only are themes problematic, I would point >>>> out the documentation concerning how to work around theme based >>>> issues with the flatgrey theme was vague and contradictory (as >>>> was discussed here on this mailing list.) >>>>> and pretty or not it really does cause problems and it's >>>>> probably better to use it with the old flatgrey theme. There >>>>> could certainly be other problems, but in general I'd say 09.04 >>>>> is more solid and certainly much more feature complete. >>>>> >>>> How about Jira #2602 - the very first thing you see when you >>>> start up the demo store is broken (in my book and in my browser). >>>> Sorry, but this does not bode well for the remainder of the >>>> demonstration and for a successful outcome should one be a new >>>> user testing the waters. >>>>> As far as "ad advertised" goes, I wasn't aware there was >>>>> anything advertised either way... ;) >>>> Exactly my point! Its all implied. And since we have nothing else >>>> to work with, older is better in this case. >>>>> One nice thing about 09.04 is that the business processes are >>>>> much more complete. In other words you can run through a >>>>> business process and not find the big functional gaps that exist >>>>> in 4.0. A LOT happened in the 2 years between the two releases, >>>>> and probably around 50 man-years of effort went into things. >>>> Actually, the devil is in the details. I'm not "dissing" 50 man- >>>> years of work, but how many years of work went into the code base >>>> prior to the 9.x release? And how many implementations are there >>>> of 4.x code vs. trunk releases since the branch? >>>>> This really isn't a small difference. When doing gap analysis >>>>> based on a set of requirements I haven't seen any business >>>>> looking for anything, ever, where the feature set of 4.0 would >>>>> hit even close to the percentage of overlap that 09.04 does. >>>> That is good to know. Sounds like OFBiz is moving in the right >>>> direction. >>>>> Whatever the case, depending on the circumstances I'd still >>>>> recommend going with the trunk. For reasons we've discussed >>>>> before in many cases the trunk is actually more bug-free than >>>>> any release branch as long as you stay updated with it, of >>>>> course with the release branches you have to stay updated with >>>>> them too if you want bug fixes (ie that is the "patching" >>>>> process for them and it's BAD BAD BAD to not update when using >>>>> the release branches). >>>>> >>>> I guess this is where we differ. I'd say a new user - out to kick >>>> the tires - is not interested in updating or reporting bugs. They >>>> just want to get started with a minimum of frustration and a >>>> maximum of success. >>>>> That said, the basic idea behind the releases and what to choose >>>>> still holds pretty true, and the release branches are definitely >>>>> more "stable" (meaning they don't change, not meaning more bug- >>>>> free, but it does help some with that), see the "How Do I Decide >>>>> What To Use" section here: >>>>> >>>>> http://docs.ofbiz.org/display/OFBADMIN/Apache+OFBiz+Getting >>>>> +Started >>>>> >>>>> -David >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sep 24, 2009, at 9:49 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Jacques: >>>>>> I understand and respect where both of you are coming from. But >>>>>> I think you need to consider that for new users (and this is >>>>>> only for new users), they should be guided towards using a >>>>>> stable, proven release. The 4.x release is the only release >>>>>> that is proven and works out-of-the-box as advertised. >>>>>> >>>>>> Your reference to beginner documentation aside (and, BTW, this >>>>>> is developer documentation not end-user documentation), I can't >>>>>> in good conscience suggest to anyone to use code that hasn't >>>>>> been proven either through formal release management practices >>>>>> or through actual experience in the field. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just my 2 cents. >>>>>> Ruth >>>>>> >>>>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>>> I totally agree with Ashish (not surprising) but Ruth is also >>>>>>> right to say that we have still some bugs in R9.04, but it's >>>>>>> improving day after day and have a lot more features and a >>>>>>> better architecture. For instance there is still issues with >>>>>>> Minerva in R4. And IMO, the main reason is you will not get >>>>>>> much help (if any) from the community with R4. We are almost >>>>>>> all turned to the future, not the past... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "Ashish Vijaywargiya" >>>>>>> <[hidden email]> >>>>>>>> -1 for starting with OFBiz 4.0 release. >>>>>>>> Instead of this I will recommend to start with either Release >>>>>>>> branch 9.04 or trunk and report any bug found. >>>>>>>> The main reason of my recommendation is that the beginner >>>>>>>> document(http://docs.ofbiz.org/x/UBE) and some other document >>>>>>>> best support to Release Branch 9.04 & trunk. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> PS: "4.x trunk release" - Ruth, If I am not wrong "trunk" >>>>>>>> word is used for the repository on which current development >>>>>>>> is going on. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>> Ashish Vijaywargiya >>>>>>>> HotWax Media Pvt. Ltd. >>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Helping hand around the World ... >>>>>>>> USA | Italy | India | New Zealand >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hello Olindo: >>>>>>>>> IMHO - and not to ruffle any feathers - there are a number >>>>>>>>> of minor but very visible bugs (mostly in the presentation >>>>>>>>> layer) in the 9.04 release that could easily discourage and >>>>>>>>> frustrate a first time user. I found this out the hard way >>>>>>>>> while trying to use the 9.04 release as a basis for screen >>>>>>>>> shots in my 2 books (and for the myofbiz.com website.) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My advice for what it is worth: if you are a beginner, start >>>>>>>>> with the 4.x trunk release (it's rock solid and proven) and >>>>>>>>> then, when you understand how OFBiz should work, move on to >>>>>>>>> 9.04 if needed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Again, >>>>>>>>> Just my 2 cents. >>>>>>>>> Ruth >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Olindo Pindaro wrote: >>>>>>>>>> What is the difference beetween this 2 branches? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> TNX >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > |
Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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Re: release 4.0 vs release 09.04?
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